What does "praying" actually do?
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True, but it's not uncommon for many religious to try to apply an answer of "magic" to events that may not have a total logical explanation. They did this back in over 2000 years ago when earthquakes, meteors flying out of the sky, volcanoes erupting, etc. and attributed it to god(s) being angry or trying to send a message. Today we now know why things like this happen because of science.Physical, tangible things, such as pregnancy or death, can have polarized options, certainly, but we're not really talking about something that is physical or tangible here. Intangible things are rarely black-and-white.
My point in this thread is to get an actual explanation of what does prayer actual do. IMO, prayer is just to COMFORT the prayee or the person being prayed for and nothing more.
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Here is a Boston Globe article on hoe the Catholic Church goes about determining if a healing is a miracle (cannot be explained by science) or not. And I can attest that the Church does use non-Catholic, even non-Christians to help with many aspects of determining things, not just miracles (for example, my husband and I had to be tested and interviewed by a Unitarian psychologist to make sure there weren't any red flags with my husband in begining the process of formation for the permanent diaconate, and the same is done for anyone considering religious life, they have to go through several psychological tests with non-Catholic psychologists). http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/07/12/modern_miracle_when_saints_intervene_nowdays_it_tends_to_be_in_healthcare/?page=10
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There are still things with the body that we don't understand. We still don't know what causes Autism, how to completely cure cancer or AIDS, etc.Here is a Boston Globe article on hoe the Catholic Church goes about determining if a healing is a miracle (cannot be explained by science) or not. And I can attest that the Church does use non-Catholic, even non-Christians to help with many aspects of determining things, not just miracles (for example, my husband and I had to be tested and interviewed by a Unitarian psychologist to make sure there weren't any red flags with my husband in begining the process of formation for the permanent diaconate, and the same is done for anyone considering religious life, they have to go through several psychological tests with non-Catholic psychologists). http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/07/12/modern_miracle_when_saints_intervene_nowdays_it_tends_to_be_in_healthcare/?page=1
But to say that prayer was the answer is an assumption. There was a clinical study done on prayer with heart surgery patients to see if there was any effect on recovery.
http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html
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What I meant was that if you hear the voice of G-d you are hearing a voice inside your head. There are only 2 ways that can happen. Either - A) There really is a G-d, and he really is talking to you,,, OR -If you talk to G-d, you're spiritual. If G-d talks back, you are either a prophet or a schizophrenic.
Discuss,,,
You are having an auditory hallucination. You're a prophet OR you're having a mental health event. One or the other. This is obviously a true statement.
I didn't begin so suggest which one it might be. I've felt what I interpreted as the presence of the divine, but nobody's ever "spoken" to me. However, i'm open to the possibility.
Supposedly G-d talks to Pat Robertson all the time. Told him to run for prez,,,0 -
What I meant was that if you hear the voice of G-d you are hearing a voice inside your head. There are only 2 ways that can happen. Either - A) There really is a G-d, and he really talking to you,,, OR - You have having an auditory hallucination. You're a prophet OR you're having a mental health event. One or the other.
I didn't begin so suggest which it might be. I've felt what I interpreted as the presence of the divine, but nobody's ever "spoken" to me. Hoever, i'm open to the possibility.
Supposedly G-d talks to Pat Robertson all the time. Told him to run for prez,,,
Kinison had a great joke about that. Basically saying God made Pat Robertson do things to amuse him.
"Watch this watch this, I'm gonna wait until 2am and make him check his tire pressure. No seriously watch! "Hey Pat.. hey it's God. Yeah I'm gonna need you to wake up...""0 -
My point in this thread is to get an actual explanation of what does prayer actual do. IMO, prayer is just to COMFORT the prayee or the person being prayed for and nothing more.
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It's only comfort for believers, I guess. I mean, what comfort can come from praying to someone you don't believe exists? There is no hope of anyone hearing or answering in that case, so I guess for the unbeliever, prayer doesn't do anything and doesn't offer any comfort. On the other hand, for those of us who do believe in God (the God of the Bible, in my case), there is definite comfort because of the belief that we are directing our prayers to someone who is eternal, real, and actively involved in our lives...something that we can give witness to even if no one else wants to accept it as logical or tangible. That's the difference. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't be wasting my time praying if I didn't think God existed and I wouldn't continue to pray if he never answered.0 -
If by “how does prayer WORK/DO” you mean how do you get your prayers to accomplish what you want them to accomplish, such is impossible. Prayer is, at root, communion with God and it should involve a gradual conforming of my will to God’s, not the other way around.My point in this thread is to get an actual explanation of what does prayer actual do. IMO, prayer is just to COMFORT the prayee or the person being prayed for and nothing more.
We pray for the sick, dying and lonely because we believe that God works through prayers in the way he chooses to do so. Prayer is not magic, though. We don’t follow certain rules and then get what we want. Think of it like a child going to his/her parent. The parent may be moved by his child’s requests but may “overrule” the request in light of some larger purpose or knowledge. Our prayers have a purpose and an effect but they are not a way of manipulating or controlling God.
We are changed by having a living relationship with God. Sometimes we see concrete ways that God works in people’s lives and other times we may not. Either way, if I am trusting in God, conforming my will to his, interceding for others, etc., then prayer is having an effect. When people focus on getting what we want when we pray, it makes me think that prayer is being radically misunderstood. If we take the “Our Father” as the model prayer, we see these major points:
OUR FATHER (We begin by acknowledging that we are God’s children and that God has made us his “family”)
WHO ART IN HEAVEN (we acknowledge that God transcends this world, is greater than all earthly realities; worship)
HALLOWED BE THY NAME (God’s name is God’s “revelation” of himself, God has initiated a “conversation” with himself by making us and revealing himself to us, we are obligated to respond. God’s name is “holy” and should be treated as such. Our acknowledgement of the holiness of God’s revelation is the essence of worship.)
THY KINGDOM COME (We are hoping for God’s “rule” to conquer this world. We see our lives as devoted to the task of sharing in the arrival of God’s reign/triumph.)
THY WILL BE DONE (In contrast to selfish, prideful pursuits, we submit our own will to God’s. This involves a realization that God’s will may not be the same as my own.)
ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN (We are looking for the perfect accomplishment of God’s plan that is presently unfinished in this world.)
GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD (Only now do we make “petitions” for our needs. We ask only for what is necessary to sustain our lives as we seek to accomplish God’s will.)
FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES (We plead for God’s forgiveness)
AS WE FORGIVE THOSE… (Since we have received forgiveness and mercy from God, we extend forgiveness to others)
LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION… (We ask that God save/rescue us from divine judgment that comes upon the disobedience and wicked)
Notice that requests for what we want is rather minimal in this prayer. The focus is on God, conforming our mind to him, worshipping him, forgiving, etc.0 -
I was schooled by priests and nuns, too. As an adult, I've worked in Catholic schools. I've never heard a priest, nun, theologian, or anyone else claim that if you're "praying right" God will appear to you. Perhaps you misunderstood what they were saying to you. I can see trying to explain to children that praying to God as if he's Santa Claus is wrong, or praying for material things is wrong, or something like that. It's a shame they made you feel like you were doing something wrong if you didn't feel, see, or hear God. That ticks me off to hear people in the church making such claims.....and then we wonder why people are leaving Christianity.I was honestly a believer as a child, and NEVER felt or heard god no matter how much I tried. Priests and nuns said I was doing it wrong. That god will make himself appear if you were really willing for it to happen. Needless to say, it never happened.
As for strength and courage, I personally believe that has more to do with the person.0 -
Problem with these discussions is there are about as many different views on prayer as there are christians. Every denomination has their own take.
I think that prayer as a meditative tool is beneficial to people just as Tai Chi is to the people in the parks or meditaion is to Buddhists. When I was a Christian, I felt as many Christians do that prayer should be more of giving thanks to the maker than wanting stuff.
As far as miracles through prayer, I would need a lot of convincing, preferably seeing it with my own eyes. I pretty much discount biblical miracles as misinterpretations of natural phenomenon, exaggerations, and legends.
Modern miracles I view as having various sources.
Misunderstanding, wishful thinking, statistical anomolies, con jobs, attention seekers, and the mentally ill.
But I, like Ninerbuff, am a hard audience to convince. I am not so narrow minded as to say nothing could ever change my mind. But in my mind, these miracles through prayers should have been proven, to me at least, to be not very reliable since we have had video capability for decades and never have been able to catch definative proof of a ressurection, amputated limb grown back, or any other hardcore suspension of the natural order that would constiture a miraculous nature.0 -
Remember that I grew up catholic since birth and followed doctrine and sacraments to the T with the expectation that I would be in god's good graces. As I grew older and learned that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny weren't real, I began to wonder why god never "showed" himself to me in anyway. Long story short, eventually I became Atheist because I realized that the church is more about organized indoctrination and making up it's own rules rather than actually following what's was really in the bible.It's only comfort for believers, I guess. I mean, what comfort can come from praying to someone you don't believe exists? There is no hope of anyone hearing or answering in that case, so I guess for the unbeliever, prayer doesn't do anything and doesn't offer any comfort. On the other hand, for those of us who do believe in God (the God of the Bible, in my case), there is definite comfort because of the belief that we are directing our prayers to someone who is eternal, real, and actively involved in our lives...something that we can give witness to even if no one else wants to accept it as logical or tangible. That's the difference. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't be wasting my time praying if I didn't think God existed and I wouldn't continue to pray if he never answered.
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So you're saying that people don't personally pray something like "Dear god, please watch over my mother on her flight and keep her safe" etc.? People pray for safety of family, people to get well, for strength, etc.
If by “how does prayer WORK/DO” you mean how do you get your prayers to accomplish what you want them to accomplish, such is impossible. Prayer is, at root, communion with God and it should involve a gradual conforming of my will to God’s, not the other way around.My point in this thread is to get an actual explanation of what does prayer actual do. IMO, prayer is just to COMFORT the prayee or the person being prayed for and nothing more.
We pray for the sick, dying and lonely because we believe that God works through prayers in the way he chooses to do so. Prayer is not magic, though. We don’t follow certain rules and then get what we want. Think of it like a child going to his/her parent. The parent may be moved by his child’s requests but may “overrule” the request in light of some larger purpose or knowledge. Our prayers have a purpose and an effect but they are not a way of manipulating or controlling God.
We are changed by having a living relationship with God. Sometimes we see concrete ways that God works in people’s lives and other times we may not. Either way, if I am trusting in God, conforming my will to his, interceding for others, etc., then prayer is having an effect. When people focus on getting what we want when we pray, it makes me think that prayer is being radically misunderstood. If we take the “Our Father” as the model prayer, we see these major points:
OUR FATHER (We begin by acknowledging that we are God’s children and that God has made us his “family”)
WHO ART IN HEAVEN (we acknowledge that God transcends this world, is greater than all earthly realities; worship)
HALLOWED BE THY NAME (God’s name is God’s “revelation” of himself, God has initiated a “conversation” with himself by making us and revealing himself to us, we are obligated to respond. God’s name is “holy” and should be treated as such. Our acknowledgement of the holiness of God’s revelation is the essence of worship.)
THY KINGDOM COME (We are hoping for God’s “rule” to conquer this world. We see our lives as devoted to the task of sharing in the arrival of God’s reign/triumph.)
THY WILL BE DONE (In contrast to selfish, prideful pursuits, we submit our own will to God’s. This involves a realization that God’s will may not be the same as my own.)
ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN (We are looking for the perfect accomplishment of God’s plan that is presently unfinished in this world.)
GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD (Only now do we make “petitions” for our needs. We ask only for what is necessary to sustain our lives as we seek to accomplish God’s will.)
FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES (We plead for God’s forgiveness)
AS WE FORGIVE THOSE… (Since we have received forgiveness and mercy from God, we extend forgiveness to others)
LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION… (We ask that God save/rescue us from divine judgment that comes upon the disobedience and wicked)
Notice that requests for what we want is rather minimal in this prayer. The focus is on God, conforming our mind to him, worshipping him, forgiving, etc.
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True, but it's not uncommon for many religious to try to apply an answer of "magic" to events that may not have a total logical explanation. They did this back in over 2000 years ago when earthquakes, meteors flying out of the sky, volcanoes erupting, etc. and attributed it to god(s) being angry or trying to send a message. Today we now know why things like this happen because of science.Physical, tangible things, such as pregnancy or death, can have polarized options, certainly, but we're not really talking about something that is physical or tangible here. Intangible things are rarely black-and-white.
My point in this thread is to get an actual explanation of what does prayer actual do. IMO, prayer is just to COMFORT the prayee or the person being prayed for and nothing more.
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Your tone seems to suggest that you think that's a bad thing? In my view, the fundamental 'point', if you like, of what is often called 'God', though it may go by other names as well, is the idea of a transcendental love that remains steadfast in the face of all opposition, disbelief and doubt. Speaking to someone, or something that loves us, whether that's a parent, friend, partner or God is intrinsically comforting, and that seems like a significant benefit to me.
Comfort can be hard to come by in this world, and a positive perspective on the troubles that face each of us in our lives, be they minor, or major, can contribute significantly to our ability to handle them. We've all heard the stories of the person who decided they were going to beat cancer, or another illness, and between their positivity and the miracles of modern medicine, they have been cured. If they find comfort and a positive mind-set in prayer, isn't that 'proof' enough that prayer works? It may or may not have been the deciding factor in the physical curing of the illness, but it gave the person in question the will and strength to fight. Prayers are not always answered directly, but often in ways we may not have expected, or thought to ask for.
There are things in my life that I attribute, at least in part, to prayer and to a bigger plan for my life than the plans I make for myself - primarily circumstances, rather than physical things - you, or anyone else, might attribute these things to something else, depending on your personal beliefs. That's your prerogative. Equally, it is my prerogative, and that of anyone who believes in a God of some sort, to believe that their prayers are heard, and to take comfort from that. If the comfort I derive from communicating with an eternally-loving, omnipotent, omniscient God inspires me to be able to cope with the challenges in my life, then I'd say prayer does quite a lot!
In relation to your comment about science, yes, our understanding of the physical world has evolved and progressed enormously. In my opinion, our understanding, or lack of, of the non-physical, or spiritual world, hasn't really changed much over the centuries. Perhaps we are not meant to understand it completely - if our sense of wonder was taken away, because we understood everything around us, and in our lives, the world would be a much poorer, and less enthralling and creative place.0 -
If by “how does prayer WORK/DO” you mean how do you get your prayers to accomplish what you want them to accomplish, such is impossible. Prayer is, at root, communion with God and it should involve a gradual conforming of my will to God’s, not the other way around.
We pray for the sick, dying and lonely because we believe that God works through prayers in the way he chooses to do so. Prayer is not magic, though. We don’t follow certain rules and then get what we want. Think of it like a child going to his/her parent. The parent may be moved by his child’s requests but may “overrule” the request in light of some larger purpose or knowledge. Our prayers have a purpose and an effect but they are not a way of manipulating or controlling God.
We are changed by having a living relationship with God. Sometimes we see concrete ways that God works in people’s lives and other times we may not. Either way, if I am trusting in God, conforming my will to his, interceding for others, etc., then prayer is having an effect. When people focus on getting what we want when we pray, it makes me think that prayer is being radically misunderstood.
The focus is on God, conforming our mind to him, worshipping him, forgiving, etc.
Refer to paragraph #2 above.So you're saying that people don't personally pray something like "Dear god, please watch over my mother on her flight and keep her safe" etc.? People pray for safety of family, people to get well, for strength, etc.0 -
God "shows" himself to me when I look around me. You have to be willing to believe to see. I get that you don't feel the same way, though. Also, the word atheist shouldn't be capitalized unless it's at the beginning of the sentence because it's not a proper noun. I don't want you to think I'm being disrespectful when I don't capitalize it. I realize your refusal to capitalize God, Christianity, and Catholic is trying to make a statement.I began to wonder why god never "showed" himself to me in anyway. Long story short, eventually I became Atheist because I realized that the church is more about organized indoctrination and making up it's own rules rather than actually following what's was really in the bible.0 -
People that say "I'll pray for you" here on the forums (especially when they've never met or don't even know the person) are doing it to "feel good". The intent is to somehow feel they put in their part into a good act. It's like wearing a Pink ribbon to say you support cancer, but don't donate any time or money to help the cause. But it feels good.Your tone seems to suggest that you think that's a bad thing? In my view, the fundamental 'point', if you like, of what is often called 'God', though it may go by other names as well, is the idea of a transcendental love that remains steadfast in the face of all opposition, disbelief and doubt. Speaking to someone, or something that loves us, whether that's a parent, friend, partner or God is intrinsically comforting, and that seems like a significant benefit to me.
Comfort can be hard to come by in this world, and a positive perspective on the troubles that face each of us in our lives, be they minor, or major, can contribute significantly to our ability to handle them. We've all heard the stories of the person who decided they were going to beat cancer, or another illness, and between their positivity and the miracles of modern medicine, they have been cured. If they find comfort and a positive mind-set in prayer, isn't that 'proof' enough that prayer works? It may or may not have been the deciding factor in the physical curing of the illness, but it gave the person in question the will and strength to fight. Prayers are not always answered directly, but often in ways we may not have expected, or thought to ask for.
There are things in my life that I attribute, at least in part, to prayer and to a bigger plan for my life than the plans I make for myself - primarily circumstances, rather than physical things - you, or anyone else, might attribute these things to something else, depending on your personal beliefs. That's your prerogative. Equally, it is my prerogative, and that of anyone who believes in a God of some sort, to believe that their prayers are heard, and to take comfort from that. If the comfort I derive from communicating with an eternally-loving, omnipotent, omniscient God inspires me to be able to cope with the challenges in my life, then I'd say prayer does quite a lot!
In relation to your comment about science, yes, our understanding of the physical world has evolved and progressed enormously. In my opinion, our understanding, or lack of, of the non-physical, or spiritual world, hasn't really changed much over the centuries. Perhaps we are not meant to understand it completely - if our sense of wonder was taken away, because we understood everything around us, and in our lives, the world would be a much poorer, and less enthralling and creative place.
While I will say that many feel prayer works for them personally, inner strength is still dictated by how one approaches it. People who lack confidence will have less of it and people who are strong have more. No amount of prayer will really change that.
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Whether prayed for or not, god's "plan" for them is already set and no amount of prayer changes that.We pray for the sick, dying and lonely because we believe that God works through prayers in the way he chooses to do so.
So again why pray?If things are already set for a larger purpose by god, then why not move along and let things be since god's "plan" for the person(s) won't be changed?Prayer is not magic, though. We don’t follow certain rules and then get what we want. Think of it like a child going to his/her parent. The parent may be moved by his child’s requests but may “overrule” the request in light of some larger purpose or knowledge. Our prayers have a purpose and an effect but they are not a way of manipulating or controlling God.
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Remember that I grew up catholic since birth and followed doctrine and sacraments to the T with the expectation that I would be in god's good graces. As I grew older and learned that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny weren't real, I began to wonder why god never "showed" himself to me in anyway. Long story short, eventually I became Atheist because I realized that the church is more about organized indoctrination and making up it's own rules rather than actually following what's was really in the bible.It's only comfort for believers, I guess. I mean, what comfort can come from praying to someone you don't believe exists? There is no hope of anyone hearing or answering in that case, so I guess for the unbeliever, prayer doesn't do anything and doesn't offer any comfort. On the other hand, for those of us who do believe in God (the God of the Bible, in my case), there is definite comfort because of the belief that we are directing our prayers to someone who is eternal, real, and actively involved in our lives...something that we can give witness to even if no one else wants to accept it as logical or tangible. That's the difference. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't be wasting my time praying if I didn't think God existed and I wouldn't continue to pray if he never answered.
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I agree with your assessment of the church. That's why my faith is based on a relationship with God, not an organization. I do attend a church (not Catholic) but if I never set foot in an organized church again, my faith would still be intact. Man does tend to make a mess of what God intended and imposes all kinds of rules and judgments that aren't Biblical. All of us are hypocrites to some degree because we're flawed humans, but better to help each other with that than to throw it all away.
You're still in God's good grace, Joe. He never turns his back on us even when we walk away on our own. That's what grace is about. It isn't about works and how well you follow man-made recitations or traditions.
Wishing you all the best in your journey.0 -
God’s plan for human beings includes our prayers. Christianity, as a whole, has consistently rejected a fatalistic interpretation of God’s “providence.” Again, God indeed has a “plan” for those for whom we pray but it is a not a plan in spite of or disregarding our prayers but a plan that incorporates and includes our prayers.So again why pray?
Again, prayer is, at root, communion with God. I pray in order to grow in my relationship to God. Part of that includes making requests for needs I or others have but that is only a relatively small part of prayer. I spend time with my loved ones not because I can get them to do what I want them to do but because I enjoy being with them. I pray because experiencing, knowing, and loving God are inherently meaningful and fulfilling realities.f things are already set for a larger purpose by god, then why not move along and let things be since god's "plan" for the person(s) won't be changed?0 -
Here's my thought. If god really exists and is loving and caring as christians say, then I have NOTHING to worry about. Whether I believe in god or not shouldn't matter if god actually cares about me as a human.I agree with your assessment of the church. That's why my faith is based on a relationship with God, not an organization. I do attend a church (not Catholic) but if I never set foot in an organized church again, my faith would still be intact. Man does tend to make a mess of what God intended and imposes all kinds of rules and judgments that aren't Biblical. All of us are hypocrites to some degree because we're flawed humans, but better to help each other with that than to throw it all away.
You're still in God's good grace, Joe. He never turns his back on us even when we walk away on our own. That's what grace is about. It isn't about works and how well you follow man-made recitations or traditions.
Wishing you all the best in your journey.
I personally believe that the "rules" of the bible are nothing more that "human rules" to help keep man in line and many a government, regime, kingdom, etc. used them to keep the masses in control. It's easy to keep people scared if they feel there's an entity out there that's bigger then they'll ever be.
I'm kind, helpful, unselfish, I abide law, am compassionate, volunteer time, assist the unfortunate and more, and if this isn't enough to be considered as a good human to god, then really that's not a entity I wish to be with for eternity if it really exists.
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If you truly are all those things you say 100% of the time then the "rules" as you see them shouldn't make you upset because you follow them 100%. We are all sinners, it's that struggle to be holy that is our purpose in life. God does not need us, but He did love each of us into existence whether or not you believe that to be true. He loves the worst dictator just as much as he loves the greatest saint. It is we as individuals who choose to love Him or reject Him. He never stops loving us.
Here's my thought. If god really exists and is loving and caring as christians say, then I have NOTHING to worry about. Whether I believe in god or not shouldn't matter if god actually cares about me as a human.I agree with your assessment of the church. That's why my faith is based on a relationship with God, not an organization. I do attend a church (not Catholic) but if I never set foot in an organized church again, my faith would still be intact. Man does tend to make a mess of what God intended and imposes all kinds of rules and judgments that aren't Biblical. All of us are hypocrites to some degree because we're flawed humans, but better to help each other with that than to throw it all away.
You're still in God's good grace, Joe. He never turns his back on us even when we walk away on our own. That's what grace is about. It isn't about works and how well you follow man-made recitations or traditions.
Wishing you all the best in your journey.
I personally believe that the "rules" of the bible are nothing more that "human rules" to help keep man in line and many a government, regime, kingdom, etc. used them to keep the masses in control. It's easy to keep people scared if they feel there's an entity out there that's bigger then they'll ever be.
I'm kind, helpful, unselfish, I abide law, am compassionate, volunteer time, assist the unfortunate and more, and if this isn't enough to be considered as a good human to god, then really that's not a entity I wish to be with for eternity if it really exists.
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Again, if prayer doesn't change predestined outcome, I would think it's a waste of time.God’s plan for human beings includes our prayers. Christianity, as a whole, has consistently rejected a fatalistic interpretation of God’s “providence.” Again, God indeed has a “plan” for those for whom we pray but it is a not a plan in spite of or disregarding our prayers but a plan that incorporates and includes our prayers.
People spend time with loved ones because they enjoy them. You can have a loved one who makes you miserable whenever you see them and my bet is that you wouldn't spend time around them as much.Again, prayer is, at root, communion with God. I pray in order to grow in my relationship to God. Part of that includes making requests for needs I or others have but that is only a relatively small part of prayer. I spend time with my loved ones not because I can get them to do what I want them to do but because I enjoy being with them. I pray because experiencing, knowing, and loving God are inherently meaningful and fulfilling realities.
We are "taught" that prayer is a communion with god, but like my experience, for many many years doing it, I've never felt god ever communicated with me. I personally believe that people get the "placebo" effect from prayer.
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I think God is communicating with you otherwise you wouldn't be as obsessed with Him as you are based on the threads you have started. Maybe it's time to do less talking and more listening.
Again, if prayer doesn't change predestined outcome, I would think it's a waste of time.God’s plan for human beings includes our prayers. Christianity, as a whole, has consistently rejected a fatalistic interpretation of God’s “providence.” Again, God indeed has a “plan” for those for whom we pray but it is a not a plan in spite of or disregarding our prayers but a plan that incorporates and includes our prayers.
People spend time with loved ones because they enjoy them. You can have a loved one who makes you miserable whenever you see them and my bet is that you wouldn't spend time around them as much.Again, prayer is, at root, communion with God. I pray in order to grow in my relationship to God. Part of that includes making requests for needs I or others have but that is only a relatively small part of prayer. I spend time with my loved ones not because I can get them to do what I want them to do but because I enjoy being with them. I pray because experiencing, knowing, and loving God are inherently meaningful and fulfilling realities.
We are "taught" that prayer is a communion with god, but like my experience, for many many years doing it, I've never felt god ever communicated with me. I personally believe that people get the "placebo" effect from prayer.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Really? Is homosexuality as sin? I don't think so and don't feel that anyone that is should follow christian "rule" pertaining to it.If you truly are all those things you say 100% of the time then the "rules" as you see them shouldn't make you upset because you follow them 100%. We are all sinners, it's that struggle to be holy that is our purpose in life. God does not need us, but He did love each of us into existence whether or not you believe that to be true. He loves the worst dictator just as much as he loves the greatest saint. It is we as individuals who choose to love Him or reject Him. He never stops loving us.
And god must love watching suffering children. If you've never been to a 3rd world country in the "ghetto", you really don't see how much god really discards basic human needs. People will say it's government. But if god is all powerful, then the very least the god could do is ensure that people don't suffer from malnutrition. But wait, prayer is supposed to help with that.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I think God is communicating with you otherwise you wouldn't be as obsessed with Him as you are based on the threads you have started. Maybe it's time to do less talking and more listening.
Again, if prayer doesn't change predestined outcome, I would think it's a waste of time.God’s plan for human beings includes our prayers. Christianity, as a whole, has consistently rejected a fatalistic interpretation of God’s “providence.” Again, God indeed has a “plan” for those for whom we pray but it is a not a plan in spite of or disregarding our prayers but a plan that incorporates and includes our prayers.
People spend time with loved ones because they enjoy them. You can have a loved one who makes you miserable whenever you see them and my bet is that you wouldn't spend time around them as much.Again, prayer is, at root, communion with God. I pray in order to grow in my relationship to God. Part of that includes making requests for needs I or others have but that is only a relatively small part of prayer. I spend time with my loved ones not because I can get them to do what I want them to do but because I enjoy being with them. I pray because experiencing, knowing, and loving God are inherently meaningful and fulfilling realities.
We are "taught" that prayer is a communion with god, but like my experience, for many many years doing it, I've never felt god ever communicated with me. I personally believe that people get the "placebo" effect from prayer.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
If you were secure in your faith, then why spend all this time defending it against non-believers?0 -
Sorry, but it's actually LOGIC that's talking. If a person was out in the street yelling and running around saying "aliens are coming" we throw them into a sanitarium. But hordes of people that believe in an entity that's never been proven either are quite sane.I think God is communicating with you otherwise you wouldn't be as obsessed with Him as you are based on the threads you have started. Maybe it's time to do less talking and more listening.
I'm obsessed with getting people to try to think logically and not hang on to what's been pounded into your head since they were toddlers. Probably won't change many minds, but there will be some that will actually look at it from a logical view instead of one that has been inundated with magical stories from a book written by men.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
You're misunderstanding the interpretation. Prayer is part of the plan.]Again, if prayer doesn't change predestined outcome, I would think it's a waste of time.
Agreed. Not sure what this has to do with this discussion. If you are talking about yourself and feeling miserable when you spend time with God, then this comment would make some sense, I suppose. Otherwise, I don't get it.]People spend time with loved ones because they enjoy them. You can have a loved one who makes you miserable whenever you see them and my bet is that you wouldn't spend time around them as much.
That's you personally. I KNOW that my prayer time is me spending time with God. If you were waiting for the Transfiguration, then I'm not surprised you were disappointed. I don't see God's face, I don't hear Him speak to me, and I don't physically feel Him. I "feel" God's presence without those things. When I look in my daughter's big, blue eyes, I "see" God's love. Some people's relationship with God is real, not just the "placebo effect". Again, I totally get that not everyone has the same relationship with God as I do. Not everyone has the same marriage, parent, sister, friend relationship that I do. You get out of relationships what you put into them.We are "taught" that prayer is a communion with god, but like my experience, for many many years doing it, I've never felt god ever communicated with me. I personally believe that people get the "placebo" effect from prayer.0 -
Sexual actions outside of a valid marriage are sins, it doesn't matter what you're inclination is, it is the actions that are sinful. No one said that each person's cross and/or struggles are easy to carry, but we all make sacrifices (heck, this site is to help people make the sacrifice of not eating all they want (gluttony, which is a sin) but eating in moderation). There is more to life than sex, though based on how some talk, that seems to be the only thing their lives are about.
Really? Is homosexuality as sin? I don't think so and don't feel that anyone that is should follow christian "rule" pertaining to it.If you truly are all those things you say 100% of the time then the "rules" as you see them shouldn't make you upset because you follow them 100%. We are all sinners, it's that struggle to be holy that is our purpose in life. God does not need us, but He did love each of us into existence whether or not you believe that to be true. He loves the worst dictator just as much as he loves the greatest saint. It is we as individuals who choose to love Him or reject Him. He never stops loving us.
And god must love watching suffering children. If you've never been to a 3rd world country in the "ghetto", you really don't see how much god really discards basic human needs. People will say it's government. But if god is all powerful, then the very least the god could do is ensure that people don't suffer from malnutrition. But wait, prayer is supposed to help with that.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Don't forget free will, in which every individual has. We are given graces, but we must choose to accept them. Many people do not, including those who are dictators and deprive their constituents the basics of life. Think of it this way, would you rather have someone love you and agree to marry you out of force, but not truly loving you, or for them to choose you and love you of their own free will? That is how it is with God and us. Some can ruin a lot of people's physical life, but if you look at those same poverty striken individuals, you will find out that many have true peace in their lives despite all the physical things they need to survive.0 -
You're misunderstanding the interpretation. Prayer is part of the plan.]Again, if prayer doesn't change predestined outcome, I would think it's a waste of time.
Agreed. Not sure what this has to do with this discussion. If you are talking about yourself and feeling miserable when you spend time with God, then this comment would make some sense, I suppose. Otherwise, I don't get it.]People spend time with loved ones because they enjoy them. You can have a loved one who makes you miserable whenever you see them and my bet is that you wouldn't spend time around them as much.
That's you personally. I KNOW that my prayer time is me spending time with God. If you were waiting for the Transfiguration, then I'm not surprised you were disappointed. I don't see God's face, I don't hear Him speak to me, and I don't physically feel Him. I "feel" God's presence without those things. When I look in my daughter's big, blue eyes, I "see" God's love. Some people's relationship with God is real, not just the "placebo effect". Again, I totally get that not everyone has the same relationship with God as I do. Not everyone has the same marriage, parent, sister, friend relationship that I do. You get out of relationships what you put into them.We are "taught" that prayer is a communion with god, but like my experience, for many many years doing it, I've never felt god ever communicated with me. I personally believe that people get the "placebo" effect from prayer.
Here's my problem with prayer being "time spent with god" The christian god is all powerful, all knowing according to the religions followers. He's knows your mind, that is reinforced by the fact that one of the commandments is "Thou shall not covet", which is a thought crime. So if god knows your thoughts, heart, and mind, what possible reason could there be to drop to your knees and throw our hands up in prayer if he already knew what you were thinking in the first place?0 -
Careful. Now you're just sounding like an angry atheist. If we trust God, we know that suffering is for a reason. I have a friend who is dying of lung cancer that is now in her pancreas. She has just months to live and is in great pain. She told me, "I know that God is using me and my suffereing for good, and I don't need to understand what that is". So, don't think that all people who suffer are angry at God or fail to believe in Him.And god must love watching suffering children. If you've never been to a 3rd world country in the "ghetto", you really don't see how much god really discards basic human needs. People will say it's government. But if god is all powerful, then the very least the god could do is ensure that people don't suffer from malnutrition. But wait, prayer is supposed to help with that.0 -
Careful. Now you're just sounding like an angry atheist. If we trust God, we know that suffering is for a reason. I have a friend who is dying of lung cancer that is now in her pancreas. She has just months to live and is in great pain. She told me, "I know that God is using me and my suffereing for good, and I don't need to understand what that is". So, don't think that all people who suffer are angry at God or fail to believe in Him.And god must love watching suffering children. If you've never been to a 3rd world country in the "ghetto", you really don't see how much god really discards basic human needs. People will say it's government. But if god is all powerful, then the very least the god could do is ensure that people don't suffer from malnutrition. But wait, prayer is supposed to help with that.
It's rough when someone brings a personal example like this into the debate circle because it's hard to have a debate with somethins so emotionally attatched. But I find nothing compelling about the claim that god is using her suffering for some good. Sounds to me like she was having diffulty accepting her misfortune of be stricken with cancer. But is she dresses it up and gives it some cosmic meaniing, it makes the bitter pill easier to swallow. Would I say this to her on her death bed? No, I have no interest in distressing a person who has found solace in these tragic circumstances, but I have also known atheists who have gone to their deathbed content. As far as atheists being angry, yes, I would agree that some are. But not at a god, we don't think he exists. Just at his followers dogma.0
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