What does "praying" actually do?
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That is why there is proselytizing. Door to door or missions are ways that religious try to indoctrinate people to become new christians. It's one of the only religions I think that do. Have never had a Buddist, Muslim or Taoist try to proselytize me.Whoooaaaah! Thanks, Macpatti, for taking the time to write out your response. It's a little more than I can process but I'm trying
I wasn't using the Epicurus quote as a means of expressing my specific thoughts or feelings but I think it does bring up good points (that are being well addressed).
Like I mentioned before, I'm one of those having no religion at home growing up. Exposure, perhaps, but never in an exegetical way - just observation. I'd also be interested in knowing of cases where adults have become religious after being raised without any religion at all or any religious teachings/influence as a child/young adult.
One major thing for me, in a global and historical sense, is where specific religions fit in with each other - like ninerbuff touched on, what about the tremendous amount of "other" out there? Nontheists, atheists, and the multitude of other religions?
Statistically non religious communities have less crime and humanity issues. I would be curious to see what happens when religion is brought to them.
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Wish it happened when I was younger................then I could have become a Atheist at a younger age.Be grateful you weren't denied absolution. I went to confession one time and the priest told me that he could not absolve me of my sins until I met certain conditions. It was a shock to say the least. But it caused me to evaluate my life and what I was doing wrong. I really am grateful for that priest. I have had plenty of times in recent years where many of my family have questioned why I haven't left the Catholic faith, why I embrace it as much as I do. I love Christ, and the Catholic Church was founded by Him. So, do I pout when I can't have my selfish ways, or do I strive for holiness in actions, words, and thoughts. I will choose Christ every time and continue to strive for holiness instead of coming up with my own guidelines based solely on my own desires.
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Maybe you don't realize it, but the way you type contradicts what you're saying. You refuse to capitalize the word Christian and won't even capitalize Jesus, even knowing that's a proper name, but you'll capitalize the words Muslim and Buddhist. All after saying you "personally don't have anything against christians". Why is that? You claim to be angry, but not at God because you're an atheist, yet you keep starting threads that appear to show you're angry with Christianity. Do you realize that Christianity is the largest, world-wide relief effort for the poor, sick, homeless, etc? Do you realize all the good that has come from Christianity over the past 200 years? I will not deny that there have been many mistakes made by the church. I will not deny there have been popes, priests, and Christians all over the world who have sinned and make mistakes. But, most of what you type is to proclaim how horrible, or laughable, Christianity is. There just seems to be an agenda or an ax to grind here. That makes me sad because I believe with all my heart that Christianity has done and will continue to do wonderful things in this world.I personally don't have anything against christians (or I would personally have to dislike almost all my family and many friends) but again the actual dogma of the religion itself. If god isn't a dictator, and jesus is the ONLY way what happens to people who have no exposure to christianity at all? Or to all the Muslims? Or Buddists? Are they really going to perish? If so, isn't that a kind of dictatorship?0 -
Just pointing out again that you won't capitalize the word Christian, but will all other beliefs..........even non-beliefs such as atheism which should not be capitalized.Door to door or missions are ways that religious try to indoctrinate people to become new christians. It's one of the only religions I think that do. Have never had a Buddist, Muslim or Taoist try to proselytize me.0 -
Ahhh....thank you! Sometimes people focus too much on the differences and forget about the common ground. This is one reason I love to study world religions. There are so many things that we all share, that it's a shame to be pinned "against" each other. I'm friends with an atheist here, and I can tell you that although we profoundly disagree on religion/God, we share similar desires for the good of mankind.One major thing for me, in a global and historical sense, is where specific religions fit in with each other - like ninerbuff touched on, what about the tremendous amount of "other" out there? Nontheists, atheists, and the multitude of other religions?0 -
Joe, my point was that if we are talking about Chrisitanity in this thread, and we are, then it has to be pointed out what is the foundation of that belief to give perspective. You get to choose to not believe any of it, but you keep talking in circles and bringing up the same arguments without giving any answers to the valid points being raised that counter your views.
You pride yourself on your logic but I guess I'm not seeing it. I also initially thought you were truly seeking answers but I see now that this and the other threads you started on religious topics are not for real debate or understanding but are so you can air your opinions about God, Christianity, and the Cathohlic church (I'm not Catholic so I am somewhat clueless about those issues). At least be honest about it.
I get it. Catholicism let you down. God didn't show up like you wanted him to. He didn't fit in the box you created for him. The organized church you've experienced is a bunch of rules enforced by hypocrites. Bad things happen to good and innocent people and that makes you angry. Because you personally haven't experienced God in some physical, logical, or tangible way, therefore, he does't exist and anyone who testifies otherwise - in history past or present - must be a liar or a lunatic. Yet, for someone who doesn't believe in God, you seem to blame him for a lot of things.
There is a quote, "those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still." Just saying...and no disrespect intended. I wish you all the best and when you really are seeking answers, or God, or whatever, I hope you find them.0 -
That is why there is proselytizing. Door to door or missions are ways that religious try to indoctrinate people to become new christians. It's one of the only religions I think that do. Have never had a Buddist, Muslim or Taoist try to proselytize me.
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a) Have you ever lived somewhere where Christianity was not the majority religion?
b) How is what Hari Krishnas do, for example, any different?
c) There are societies where proselytising doesn't happen, for the simple reason that it is illegal , and in some cases, a capital crime, not to subscribe to, and follow the rules of the dominant faith. Personally, I'd rather put up with the odd person knocking on my door, hoping to share their beliefs with me, than live in a society where my beliefs were dictated to me, and my right to dissent was nonexistent, or could cost me my life. There are also societies where it is illegal to proselytise because religion is illegal. I'd rather not live there, either. We are extraordinarily privileged to have the freedoms of thought, belief, expression and association that we do. If those privileges come at the cost of the occasional mild inconvenience in our day to day lives, having to deal with proselytisers, I'd say that's a fairly small price to pay.0 -
What would be great to see is that if NO ONE was brought up with religion and later in adult life (say like 30), they are then exposed to religion, I would say the number of religious would be much less than it is today. I would speculate that "free will" would be more free here.
If you were brought up your whole life since you were walking in diapers to believe in an unproven entity, then it's much more likely that you'll keep believing it into your adult hood and pass it on to your kids. That's why it's stuck around so long.
I do understand what you are saying that it's easier to believe something that you have been told since you were a kid, but that's not a bad thing. Yes I was raised as a Christian and then I went away from the faith for a few years, I completely rejected God. But then, due to no act of my parents, I came back to the Christian faith.
Regardless of if YOU believe that Christianity is true. If anyone TRUELY believes that Jesus is the only way to heaven and all others will perish it is exceedingly selfish not to share that with people especially your children. Regardless of what religion someone is, if they believe they have the only way to heaven and that others who do not practice it will go to hell then to not tell someone about it is like having a cure for cancer but not telling those who have cancer that it is in your possession.
I am sorry that religion has hurt you, but anyone who tells you about Jesus Christ and that he died for YOU is telling you that because they love you. And it's not that those who do not believe in Christ are going to hell because they are bad people, it's because they sin is the natural state of humans and they failed to accept the antidote.0 -
Well I kinda think that people say it because they want company, not actually because they love you. If you had a good experience with a certain diet, you would recommend it. Not necessarily because it may be the not best one for someone else, but because it works for you and others.I am sorry that religion has hurt you, but anyone who tells you about Jesus Christ and that he died for YOU is telling you that because they love you. And it's not that those who do not believe in Christ are going to hell because they are bad people, it's because they sin is the natural state of humans and they failed to accept the antidote.
Apparently just being human is a sin. Even if I did good my whole life, I wouldn't be accepted to god because of an ego issue with him. IMO, if that's what god needs from me, I don't think that's the kind of god I'd want in my life.
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WWE does great charity. Some of the best in the world. They fulfill many a child's dream, do charity for homeless and unfortunate and entertain US Troops each year in the Middle East for free. But just because they do that, I wouldn't endorse what they do to make money as great. I won't deny that christianity has done some great things either, but it's not the organization doing it. The vatican is rich beyond belief, but they want followers to use their time and money to do charity work. Why keep all that money? Aren't they supposed to live meagerly? It's the volunteers who do it from the goodness of their heart. Of course I do the same, but not apparently my works alone aren't good enough unless I acknowledge god. Heck if I was the richest man in the world and stopped world hunger, I still would be ridiculed because of lack of faith.Maybe you don't realize it, but the way you type contradicts what you're saying. You refuse to capitalize the word Christian and won't even capitalize Jesus, even knowing that's a proper name, but you'll capitalize the words Muslim and Buddhist. All after saying you "personally don't have anything against christians". Why is that? You claim to be angry, but not at God because you're an atheist, yet you keep starting threads that appear to show you're angry with Christianity. Do you realize that Christianity is the largest, world-wide relief effort for the poor, sick, homeless, etc? Do you realize all the good that has come from Christianity over the past 200 years? I will not deny that there have been many mistakes made by the church. I will not deny there have been popes, priests, and Christians all over the world who have sinned and make mistakes. But, most of what you type is to proclaim how horrible, or laughable, Christianity is. There just seems to be an agenda or an ax to grind here. That makes me sad because I believe with all my heart that Christianity has done and will continue to do wonderful things in this world.
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When I used to read mythology in high school, the stories were so exciting and a great read. But I knew they weren't real but manifestations of human creativity. Some here probably don't know that mythology was actually a religion back at that time it was written. Oddly enough, there was a lot of similar story telling by other cultures with god(s), goddesses, evil entities etc. I eventually put the bible into the same category because it too really had no real evidence to me of events that were believable.Joe, my point was that if we are talking about Chrisitanity in this thread, and we are, then it has to be pointed out what is the foundation of that belief to give perspective. You get to choose to not believe any of it, but you keep talking in circles and bringing up the same arguments without giving any answers to the valid points being raised that counter your views.
You pride yourself on your logic but I guess I'm not seeing it. I also initially thought you were truly seeking answers but I see now that this and the other threads you started on religious topics are not for real debate or understanding but are so you can air your opinions about God, Christianity, and the Cathohlic church (I'm not Catholic so I am somewhat clueless about those issues). At least be honest about it.
I get it. Catholicism let you down. God didn't show up like you wanted him to. He didn't fit in the box you created for him. The organized church you've experienced is a bunch of rules enforced by hypocrites. Bad things happen to good and innocent people and that makes you angry. Because you personally haven't experienced God in some physical, logical, or tangible way, therefore, he does't exist and anyone who testifies otherwise - in history past or present - must be a liar or a lunatic. Yet, for someone who doesn't believe in God, you seem to blame him for a lot of things.
There is a quote, "those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still." Just saying...and no disrespect intended. I wish you all the best and when you really are seeking answers, or God, or whatever, I hope you find them.
It's funny how religion will disbelieve in mythology, yet really the story is the same for many of them. You don't find that odd?
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Sri Lanka for a year.a) Have you ever lived somewhere where Christianity was not the majority religion?
I disapprove of them as well.b) How is what Hari Krishnas do, for example, any different?
While we have freedom to choose whether to believe in religion or not, religion is a big player in politics even if we don't want it to be part of government. Statistics show that countries that have less religions have better health care systems, have less crime, good values and education and good citizens. Japan is a good example.c) There are societies where proselytising doesn't happen, for the simple reason that it is illegal , and in some cases, a capital crime, not to subscribe to, and follow the rules of the dominant faith. Personally, I'd rather put up with the odd person knocking on my door, hoping to share their beliefs with me, than live in a society where my beliefs were dictated to me, and my right to dissent was nonexistent, or could cost me my life. There are also societies where it is illegal to proselytise because religion is illegal. I'd rather not live there, either. We are extraordinarily privileged to have the freedoms of thought, belief, expression and association that we do. If those privileges come at the cost of the occasional mild inconvenience in our day to day lives, having to deal with proselytisers, I'd say that's a fairly small price to pay.
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Ahhh....thank you! Sometimes people focus too much on the differences and forget about the common ground. This is one reason I love to study world religions. There are so many things that we all share, that it's a shame to be pinned "against" each other. I'm friends with an atheist here, and I can tell you that although we profoundly disagree on religion/God, we share similar desires for the good of mankind.
+1 to the nth power in credibility for studying world religions...and "similar desires for the good of mankind" - I can hang with that! 0 -
Praying for someone or something is a way to sound like you're making an effort without actually having to do anything.0
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Praying for someone or something is a way to sound like you're making an effort without actually having to do anything.
I disagree. It's not that people pray out of laziness, it's that they pray because they are powerless. I am powerless over medical issues, and there are situations there's nothing i can do to improve so praying is giving the control over to God who is the only one who has control over those situations.0 -
I disagree. It's not that people pray out of laziness, it's that they pray because they are powerless. I am powerless over medical issues, and there are situations there's nothing i can do to improve so praying is giving the control over to God who is the only one who has control over those situations.
We will have to politely disagree on this. Few things bother me more than things like "Pray for Peace" bumper stickers and such. To me, it's a cop-out. If only "God" controls the situation, why even bother praying?0 -
My point of contention is not that you think God doesn’t listen to prayers (or doesn’t exist) you are free to that belief. My point of contention is the implication that we say we will pray for something because we are not willing to truly help. When someone is in a situation that I can do something to change then I will do what I can to change it and pray for the parts I can’t change. I don’t care if you don’t think prayer works just don’t treat it like it’s a copout.0
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My point of contention is not that you think God doesn’t listen to prayers (or doesn’t exist) you are free to that belief. My point of contention is the implication that we say we will pray for something because we are not willing to truly help. When someone is in a situation that I can do something to change then I will do what I can to change it and pray for the parts I can’t change. I don’t care if you don’t think prayer works just don’t treat it like it’s a copout.
Why not? What situations are people "powerless" about that they can do nothing else but think to a man in the sky? I don't care if people do continue to pray for situations, etc., but I think it's pretty ridiculous that they then act like they're doing the world a favor. To me, praying is the equivalent of people changing their Facebook status for an hour to "support" the cause du jour - they can feel like they've made a difference when, in reality, they've really done nothing.0 -
It's clear you don't believe in the power of prayer.Why not? What situations are people "powerless" about that they can do nothing else but think to a man in the sky? I don't care if people do continue to pray for situations, etc., but I think it's pretty ridiculous that they then act like they're doing the world a favor. To me, praying is the equivalent of people changing their Facebook status for an hour to "support" the cause du jour - they can feel like they've made a difference when, in reality, they've really done nothing.0 -
What situations are people "powerless" about that they can do nothing else but think to a man in the sky?
Cancer, an amputation, a family member in the war....those are all situations that I am totally powerless to change.
If you think that it's "not doing something" then fine but it's not a copout. It's my way of saying "I care about you and I believe in the power of prayer and have seen it work so I will pray for you." Most people, regardless of if they believe, are at least grateful that I'm doing something that i think will help.
Regardless of if you think that it works, it's not "sounding like I'm making an effort without having to do anything." If you needed a kidney and my kidneys were compatible with you and I said "i'll pray for you" but didn't offer my kidney then THAT is sounding like I'm making an effort without having to do anything." But if you're B bloodtype and i'm A, I can't give you my blood but I can pray for God to provide for you.
I am not trying to say that I'm "doing something" but I am saying that it's not something that we say just to "feel better." If prayer were just a way of making it seem like I'm making an effort then I would never pray for myself because i have nothing to prove to myself0 -
It's clear you don't believe in the power of prayer.Why not? What situations are people "powerless" about that they can do nothing else but think to a man in the sky? I don't care if people do continue to pray for situations, etc., but I think it's pretty ridiculous that they then act like they're doing the world a favor. To me, praying is the equivalent of people changing their Facebook status for an hour to "support" the cause du jour - they can feel like they've made a difference when, in reality, they've really done nothing.
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“Prayer does not change God, but it changes him who prays.” Soren Kierkegaard0
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“Prayer does not change God, but it changes him who prays.” Soren Kierkegaard
Like I said, I don't really have an issue with people praying or not praying - it's when they act like it's affected the rest of the world in some way that it starts to get on my nerves.0 -
Yep I agree. Prayer changed me to an Atheist.“Prayer does not change God, but it changes him who prays.” Soren Kierkegaard
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"Prayer does not change God, but it changes him who prays.” Soren Kierkegaard
Because God didn't "perform the act" you wanted Him to?Yep I agree. Prayer changed me to an Atheist.0 -
Nah. I just figured out that it is nothing more than just a hopeful ritual performed by those who feel that there's gotta be something more than just our meager lives. I asked for no act, just a sign to prove god existed. As you know by now, I've come to believe that god doesn't exist and that all the BS we've been fed by organized religion is just to keep us in check and for the "higher ups" to stay in control. And they are doing a great job based on how many follow religion and fork out money to the organizations each year."Prayer does not change God, but it changes him who prays.” Soren Kierkegaard
Because God didn't "perform the act" you wanted Him to?Yep I agree. Prayer changed me to an Atheist.
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Nah. I just figured out that it is nothing more than just a hopeful ritual performed by those who feel that there's gotta be something more than just our meager lives. I asked for no act, just a sign to prove god existed. As you know by now, I've come to believe that god doesn't exist and that all the BS we've been fed by organized religion is just to keep us in check and for the "higher ups" to stay in control. And they are doing a great job based on how many follow religion and fork out money to the organizations each year."Prayer does not change God, but it changes him who prays.” Soren Kierkegaard
Because God didn't "perform the act" you wanted Him to?Yep I agree. Prayer changed me to an Atheist.
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I am new coming into this thread, nevertheless I still believe I can add something to the table.
If one were to take the bible word for word, as many do, it seems really silly, doesn't it? After Thousands of years man have changed, so have their ideals and their religions. The bible has been rewritten by man hundreds of times, maybe even more but we can't really know.
If the bible was still the literal words of god, heaven would be empty. How do you judge a man who killed while blinded by his government? How do you judge a man who was conscripted and killed? How do you judge a man who followers another faith? How do you judge a man when he is corrupted and selfish? You simply can't do it, if anybody who follows another religion, ideology, been in war, stolen or acted carelessly, do you send them all to perish in hell?
History dictates that recently a lot of churches and priests have taken from people and not given back, why should I give my money to the church that would keep it? Like Ninerbuff pointed out, the vatican keeps money from the poor and still asks for money, but why? The churches may follow their faith blindly, but they keep money from people who truly need it, thus they must be corrupt.
If God had true intervention with the world how come so many suffer? Why does the majority of the world suffer and why it is based on my genetics and who my mother & father are? It makes no sense as to why I am better off because of my parents status, how can a man be placed based on his genetics, colour and who his parents, which he has no choice over? In medieval times, the hierarchy was completely based on blood lines, which obviously touts that if God truly had control over everything, he believes that those who come from lesser blood lines are deemed more 'worthless'.
Through religion man wars have been fought, so many people have died in the name of God, so many towns sieged and innocent people murdered because a man decided to add another rule into the bible. What happened if we never sought to follow that faith? How would we be now with the dark ages torn apart? For all the good that religion has done to people, there has been so much sadness and despair because of religion. Why do we see more of the devil than the God?
Now, back to the actual question. I myself believe in a ribbed version of the Christian and Catholic religion, I don't care if any religions fanatics call me out, it is my faith and I chose to follow it. For those that do believe in prayer and their religion, and we are assuming God is not factual and deduce that he is not real, it simply offers comfort for people. Often at times people have been led to feeling better because of a simple prayer, they feel comforted in the fact that something other than life exists, that there is a place after life and that divine powers exist, which may help them. People find comfort praying for those divine powers when they have no where else to look to, it simply is a pillow on which they can lay their heads on. Of course, this is if assuming God is not real.
My views on how religion is affected us, what happens because of it and what prayer does is my extreme views, if I offended anybody I am sorry and did not mean too. Likewise, this is what I believe and I am open to debating, but please don't just offend me.
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I don't think anyone here suggests that the bible is meant to be taken literally. From what I can tell in these types of threads, most of us understand the use of poetry, parables, and hyperbole.If one were to take the bible word for word, as many do, it seems really silly, doesn't it?0 -
LiquidSugarr wrote: »I believe that God wants to have a relationship with us and that is formed by prayer. Prayer is simply communication with our God who wants us to love Him as He loves us. I also think that prayer also gives us strength, hope and courage in difficult times.
Agreed.
+10
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