What does "praying" actually do?
Replies
-
Here's my thought. If god really exists and is loving and caring as christians say, then I have NOTHING to worry about. Whether I believe in god or not shouldn't matter if god actually cares about me as a human.I agree with your assessment of the church. That's why my faith is based on a relationship with God, not an organization. I do attend a church (not Catholic) but if I never set foot in an organized church again, my faith would still be intact. Man does tend to make a mess of what God intended and imposes all kinds of rules and judgments that aren't Biblical. All of us are hypocrites to some degree because we're flawed humans, but better to help each other with that than to throw it all away.
You're still in God's good grace, Joe. He never turns his back on us even when we walk away on our own. That's what grace is about. It isn't about works and how well you follow man-made recitations or traditions.
Wishing you all the best in your journey.
I personally believe that the "rules" of the bible are nothing more that "human rules" to help keep man in line and many a government, regime, kingdom, etc. used them to keep the masses in control. It's easy to keep people scared if they feel there's an entity out there that's bigger then they'll ever be.
I'm kind, helpful, unselfish, I abide law, am compassionate, volunteer time, assist the unfortunate and more, and if this isn't enough to be considered as a good human to god, then really that's not a entity I wish to be with for eternity if it really exists.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Similarly to momcindy, my faith is also not particularly focused on organized religion, though I do call myself a Christian, as largely speaking, I subscribe to the essential tenets of that faith. As it happens, to a large extent I agree with you about many biblical and religious 'rules' - they were created to manage a specific issue at a specific time, and in the case of some of the earliest eg. the 10 Commandments, were set down as a way to express in writing, the mores and social conventions by which that society wanted to live. It doesn't make the Ten Commandments any less valid, in my view, but I don't neccessarily view 'Biblical' writing uncritically as the literal Word of God. Some of the rules that have been created by man, in the name of 'Religion' have been truly awful, and intended for purposes that I would not consider Godly.
It is indeed easy to make people scared, and easy to rule by fear - this is why I think it is essential that everyone consider what they have been taught, explore other options, and come to their own conclusions. For me, after serious thought and consideration, the fundamentals of my faith are simple: "Love thy neighbour as thyself" - extremely difficult to do all the time! - and "Love the Lord thy God with all they heart and all thy strength and all thy mind" - equally difficult, I often find. However, my imperfect love for my neighbour, and for my God, is a poor reflection of God's infinite love for me, and for all humanity. Even if you weren't a person who displayed such wonderful characteristics, but all their inverses, in my limited understanding of God, you indeed have nothing to worry about at all.
In response to your response to my earlier post, I understand your belief that some people say "I'll pray for you" to "feel good". Perhaps they do, but perhaps they genuinely believe that their prayers may help the person they are addressing, or that that person may derive comfort from the idea that someone, somewhere, who doesn't know them, cares enough to include them in their communication with whatever God they believe in. I haven't seen anyone say that on the forums, though I don't doubt some do, and I don't believe it's a considerate response, if someone is expressing their atheism, aversion to religion, or a position/preference that the prayer has made clear their disapproval of - I don't think anyone should force their own religious (or irreligious) views on anyone else - but I think it's difficult to judge someone's intention in saying that if you have no idea of their own feelings on faith.
Inner strength - yes, we all have it in varying quantities. I find mine is enhanced and reinforced by my faith. I imagine you draw on other things when you need a boost - to each their own.0 -
So god's plan requires that you pray? And if you don't then the plan changes?You're misunderstanding the interpretation. Prayer is part of the plan.
I actually felt miserable sitting in church hearing the same repetition over and over again (with the exception of the sermon). I brought up the "time with loved ones" because you stated prayer had something to do with it. Maybe you pray that the ones you that make you feel miserable won't.Agreed. Not sure what this has to do with this discussion. If you are talking about yourself and feeling miserable when you spend time with God, then this comment would make some sense, I suppose. Otherwise, I don't get it.
Let me ask you if your daughter had be born deformed, would you still see god's love or question why god did it? And I do agree about relationships to a point. You can put in a lot and not get back in many cases. I've tried for years to get a good relationship with a cousin who is an outcast, but to no avail.That's you personally. I KNOW that my prayer time is me spending time with God. If you were waiting for the Transfiguration, then I'm not surprised you were disappointed. I don't see God's face, I don't hear Him speak to me, and I don't physically feel Him. I "feel" God's presence without those things. When I look in my daughter's big, blue eyes, I "see" God's love. Some people's relationship with God is real, not just the "placebo effect". Again, I totally get that not everyone has the same relationship with God as I do. Not everyone has the same marriage, parent, sister, friend relationship that I do. You get out of relationships what you put into them.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
There's more to homosexuals than just their sexual preference. I know many (there are a few in my family that are) and sex isn't their basis of life. They are generally much better about understanding human need, then the average religious person. But apparently god doesn't like them even though he made them.Sexual actions outside of a valid marriage are sins, it doesn't matter what you're inclination is, it is the actions that are sinful. No one said that each person's cross and/or struggles are easy to carry, but we all make sacrifices (heck, this site is to help people make the sacrifice of not eating all they want (gluttony, which is a sin) but eating in moderation). There is more to life than sex, though based on how some talk, that seems to be the only thing their lives are about.
Sorry but god's ultimatum (apparently) is live or "die". Accept and live or die (in hell) without. Not actually free will (look up the definition) since there's a constrained decision here.Don't forget free will, in which every individual has. We are given graces, but we must choose to accept them. Many people do not, including those who are dictators and deprive their constituents the basics of life. Think of it this way, would you rather have someone love you and agree to marry you out of force, but not truly loving you, or for them to choose you and love you of their own free will? That is how it is with God and us. Some can ruin a lot of people's physical life, but if you look at those same poverty striken individuals, you will find out that many have true peace in their lives despite all the physical things they need to survive.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Of course I'm angry. Who wouldn't be knowing that if a god truly existed and is as loving as being told by followers, that if god has this power to overcome just basic needs, then why sit by and let it happen? To watch people suffer for kicks? Wouldn't people be much more grateful to god if they were ensured at least daily food?Careful. Now you're just sounding like an angry atheist. If we trust God, we know that suffering is for a reason. I have a friend who is dying of lung cancer that is now in her pancreas. She has just months to live and is in great pain. She told me, "I know that God is using me and my suffereing for good, and I don't need to understand what that is". So, don't think that all people who suffer are angry at God or fail to believe in Him.
If a parent didn't feed their kid, it's considered a crime. Will that kid look more favorably to the parent if they starved? Or would they feel punished? Like I said, I've been to the ghetto in the Philippines, and know how poor they are. I support a child (not related) monthly there because I know that it's the very least I can do. These people are in the majority catholics who pray fervently for some mercy from god just to be able to not even feed themselves, but their children. It's falling on deaf ears.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Who said that God doesn't like them? He loves them. Do you just randomly pull parts of quotes and ignore other parts? God loves them, God loves dictators, God loves those who are completely selfless. He may not love our actions (sins) but He sure loves each and every one of us. And fyi, those with same sex attraction are not the only ones who sin. We all are called to holiness, but it is our choosing to strive for that or not.
There's more to homosexuals than just their sexual preference. I know many (there are a few in my family that are) and sex isn't their basis of life. They are generally much better about understanding human need, then the average religious person. But apparently god doesn't like them even though he made them.Sexual actions outside of a valid marriage are sins, it doesn't matter what you're inclination is, it is the actions that are sinful. No one said that each person's cross and/or struggles are easy to carry, but we all make sacrifices (heck, this site is to help people make the sacrifice of not eating all they want (gluttony, which is a sin) but eating in moderation). There is more to life than sex, though based on how some talk, that seems to be the only thing their lives are about.
[qote]
Sorry but god's ultimatum (apparently) is live or "die". Accept and live or die (in hell) without. Not actually free will (look up the definition) since there's a constrained decision here.Don't forget free will, in which every individual has. We are given graces, but we must choose to accept them. Many people do not, including those who are dictators and deprive their constituents the basics of life. Think of it this way, would you rather have someone love you and agree to marry you out of force, but not truly loving you, or for them to choose you and love you of their own free will? That is how it is with God and us. Some can ruin a lot of people's physical life, but if you look at those same poverty striken individuals, you will find out that many have true peace in their lives despite all the physical things they need to survive.
[/quote]No, we choose to accept God at the moment or death or to reject Him. Free will even at the moment of death. All our souls live forever, some choose to live eternity with God some choose to live eternity seperated from Him. But it is their choice.0 -
FOr that one child it isn't falling on deaf ears because YOU are the answer to that prayer. Many just do not answer God's nudge to help those in need, some make the choice to be greedy and thus, others suffer because of their choice. Again, we're all guilty of sin, we could all do more.
Of course I'm angry. Who wouldn't be knowing that if a god truly existed and is as loving as being told by followers, that if god has this power to overcome just basic needs, then why sit by and let it happen? To watch people suffer for kicks? Wouldn't people be much more grateful to god if they were ensured at least daily food?Careful. Now you're just sounding like an angry atheist. If we trust God, we know that suffering is for a reason. I have a friend who is dying of lung cancer that is now in her pancreas. She has just months to live and is in great pain. She told me, "I know that God is using me and my suffereing for good, and I don't need to understand what that is". So, don't think that all people who suffer are angry at God or fail to believe in Him.
If a parent didn't feed their kid, it's considered a crime. Will that kid look more favorably to the parent if they starved? Or would they feel punished? Like I said, I've been to the ghetto in the Philippines, and know how poor they are. I support a child (not related) monthly there because I know that it's the very least I can do. These people are in the majority catholics who pray fervently for some mercy from god just to be able to not even feed themselves, but their children. It's falling on deaf ears.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Sorry, I couldn't help it.
0 -
If he loved them, then they should go to heaven regardless if they are homosexual or not. Apparently their sin won't allow that. Or am I wrong here?Who said that God doesn't like them? He loves them. Do you just randomly pull parts of quotes and ignore other parts? God loves them, God loves dictators, God loves those who are completely selfless. He may not love our actions (sins) but He sure loves each and every one of us. And fyi, those with same sex attraction are not the only ones who sin. We all are called to holiness, but it is our choosing to strive for that or not.
The choice is made upon constraint. That is NOT the definition of FREE WILL which is what your were talking about.No, we choose to accept God at the moment or death or to reject Him. Free will even at the moment of death. All our souls live forever, some choose to live eternity with God some choose to live eternity seperated from Him. But it is their choice.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Lol, an Apologetic argument. I chose to do what I did out of my own compassion, not because of god nudging me. I could easily take away the support and would that prayer still be answered? And if what you say is the case, then you're saying god favors some over others, when apparently he loves all the same. If that's true, then why don't all get the same treatment?FOr that one child it isn't falling on deaf ears because YOU are the answer to that prayer. Many just do not answer God's nudge to help those in need, some make the choice to be greedy and thus, others suffer because of their choice. Again, we're all guilty of sin, we could all do more.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I do not believe that God doesn't allow homosexuals into heaven. That thinking is so counterproductive to the Christian message and it pisses me off when other Christians make this claim. We are ALL sinners. If God didn't allow sinners into heaven, no one would be there!If he loved them, then they should go to heaven regardless if they are homosexual or not. Apparently their sin won't allow that. Or am I wrong here?0 -
You're an atheist. With whom are you angry?Of course I'm angry.0 -
Exactly. Some Christians forget that God is also merciful! Ninerbuff, I'm not God so I do not get to know the extent of His mercy upon death. Those who claim to think they are God and say who is going to heaven and ehll should be reminded who is the creator and who is the created.
I do not believe that God doesn't allow homosexuals into heaven. That thinking is so counterproductive to the Christian message and it pisses me off when other Christians make this claim. We are ALL sinners. If God didn't allow sinners into heaven, no one would be there!If he loved them, then they should go to heaven regardless if they are homosexual or not. Apparently their sin won't allow that. Or am I wrong here?
Still, why would you care, you don't believe in him, this is all just chance anyway?0 -
We should not want health more than illness, wealth more than poverty, fame more than anonymity, a long life more than a short one, but we should desire and choose only what helps us more toward the end for which we are created. So, if along the way we must suffer illness, poverty, or live a short life doesn't matter in the end.0
-
Of course I'm angry. Who wouldn't be knowing that if a god truly existed and is as loving as being told by followers, that if god has this power to overcome just basic needs, then why sit by and let it happen? To watch people suffer for kicks? Wouldn't people be much more grateful to god if they were ensured at least daily food?
I hear ya - it really depends on if you believe in the omnipotence and overall demeanor of a god, as posed by Epicurus in his well-known questions:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.
Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent.
Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?
It seems to me like an eternal struggle of the above.
As far as the OP's question of prayer, I have always *had* to equate it with meditation and as a therapeutic element.
As a background, I was brought up in an a-religious household which has left me a clean slate for all this, but also somewhat ignorant of the daily practices of religious folks (except what I've observed and read up on) so the idea of prayer is interesting, to say the least.
Overall it's quite fascinating from my perspective, which seems unique as I've met few people also unexposed to religion in early life, but also quite mind-blowing...!0 -
I'm angry at the situation not with anyone in particular. Political power has a lot to do with how people live and unfortunately I don't have any influence on that.
You're an atheist. With whom are you angry?Of course I'm angry.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
It's the dogma of christianity that imposes it's religious belief on how people are viewed and treated. You aren't really going to tell me that "midwest" christians are as accepting of homosexuals as say here in San Francisco Bay area where I live?Exactly. Some Christians forget that God is also merciful! Ninerbuff, I'm not God so I do not get to know the extent of His mercy upon death. Those who claim to think they are God and say who is going to heaven and ehll should be reminded who is the creator and who is the created.
Still, why would you care, you don't believe in him, this is all just chance anyway?
It could be the same denomination, yet attitude and belief are different. Why? Because even if the denomination is the same, they set their own rules based on interpretation of some book written in some 2000 years ago.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
If you think of it logically, we're basically here to live and pass on our genes. The other stuff is just cake.We should not want health more than illness, wealth more than poverty, fame more than anonymity, a long life more than a short one, but we should desire and choose only what helps us more toward the end for which we are created. So, if along the way we must suffer illness, poverty, or live a short life doesn't matter in the end.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Not all Christians are "good people". If you want to know what the Catholic church teaches, read its book instead of asking a Catholic because some Catholics may not even know what they're talking about. I see it all the time. When I answer questions about Catholocism, I reply with the church's teaching and not just my opinion. There's a difference. Don't hate Christianity because you hate some Christians.]It's the dogma of christianity that imposes it's religious belief on how people are viewed and treated. You aren't really going to tell me that "midwest" christians are as accepting of homosexuals as say here in San Francisco Bay area where I live?
It could be the same denomination, yet attitude and belief are different. Why? Because even if the denomination is the same, they set their own rules based on interpretation of some book written in some 2000 years ago.0 -
What would be great to see is that if NO ONE was brought up with religion and later in adult life (say like 30), they are then exposed to religion, I would say the number of religious would be much less than it is today. I would speculate that "free will" would be more free here.
If you were brought up your whole life since you were walking in diapers to believe in an unproven entity, then it's much more likely that you'll keep believing it into your adult hood and pass it on to your kids. That's why it's stuck around so long.
But we're learning as humans. Atheism isn't a small group of people now and the younger generation is starting to think more for themselves rather than listen to a lot of old stories from ancient times. And that can be good. Heck there was a time when African Americans weren't even on the same level as a Caucasian American and religion had a big influence on it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I'm here to live a life pleasing to God. The goal I have is to enter heaven and to help my husband and children do the same.If you think of it logically, we're basically here to live and pass on our genes. The other stuff is just cake.0 -
I dislike all organized religion the same. It's just more prevalent with christianity because it's the main one in America and in my homeland.Not all Christians are "good people". If you want to know what the Catholic church teaches, read its book instead of asking a Catholic because some Catholics may not even know what they're talking about. I see it all the time. When I answer questions about Catholocism, I reply with the church's teaching and not just my opinion. There's a difference. Don't hate Christianity because you hate some Christians.
And you're right about many catholics not knowing. Most that I know go to mass just because they think they have to. If they really didn't they wouldn't. Mass really isn't an enjoyable thing. Most people in the pews are just trying to fulfill an obligation. Unless there's a special event, they aren't really smiling or enthusiastic about it. They are just there so they don't feel bad about NOT going or get stuck going to confession(which is another laugher IMO).
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Had you not been raised religious, your goal would be different as would your children's if they also weren't exposed to it. However, I would bet that they would still want to have children of their own which is still in line of the logical thinking that we are here to pass on our genes.I'm here to live a life pleasing to God. The goal I have is to enter heaven and to help my husband and children do the same.
We will fight tooth and nail to ensure our genes survive, and much less for others genes to survive at the expense of our own. It's animal nature in us.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
To say "most people" is false. Maybe most Catholics that you know, but that is not true of most Catholics in general. I love going to church. I love teaching my CCE class before mass. I love listening to the readings, singing the songs, praying, and spending time with God. I know so many Catholics who feel the same way.Most people in the pews are just trying to fulfill an obligation. Unless there's a special event, they aren't really smiling or enthusiastic about it. They are just there so they don't feel bad about NOT going or get stuck going to confession(which is another laugher IMO).
You can have an opinion about religion and debate it without laughing at it. That's just disrespectful. I'm trying to have a constructive converstation with you, and I've never ridiculed atheism or any other belief that I don't share. Let's just be cool with each other as we explain our differences.0 -
I'm glad you've joined the discussion! Your point of view is similar to several people I've had conversations with before. Here are some thoughts on what you've posed here:I hear ya - it really depends on if you believe in the omnipotence and overall demeanor of a god, as posed by Epicurus in his well-known questions:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.
Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent.
Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?
It seems to me like an eternal struggle of the above.
As far as the OP's question of prayer, I have always *had* to equate it with meditation and as a therapeutic element.
As a background, I was brought up in an a-religious household which has left me a clean slate for all this, but also somewhat ignorant of the daily practices of religious folks (except what I've observed and read up on) so the idea of prayer is interesting, to say the least.
Overall it's quite fascinating from my perspective, which seems unique as I've met few people also unexposed to religion in early life, but also quite mind-blowing...!
1.The assumption of “Epicurus’” reasoning is that evil must be immediately destroyed in order for God to be exonerated of the charge of malevolence, etc. I think this is faulty for a variety of reasons. First, we do not follow this way of action in our affairs as humans. Consider something like this:
a. Is the United States able to stop evil acts in Syria or Iran? Yes. Why doesn’t it? Well, it must be that the United States is evil because it does not immediately intervene to stop every evil act that it has the power to stop. This just doesn’t sound right, does it? Someone would probably first reply by saying that the United States does not have the “right” to immediately intervene in acts that fall under the authority or domain of another authority. What if God chose to make a world in which certain “aims” or goals are achieved through “mediators” or instrumental causes? Is there something wrong with that? Is it somehow unjust or inherently wrong for God to make a world in which creatures have duties and responsibilities to participate in accomplishing God’s purposes? I don’t see anything intrinsically wrong with that concept. What if, in making such a world, God does not intervene in free human acts (or acts of nature) in order to alter their very nature? If there is a “problem” with the world, then, God works through nature and human freedom/intelligence in order to solve it.
b. If there is nothing intrinsically disordered or wrong about God making a world that has interior, dynamic forces (including intelligent freedom) that are the “means” through which God accomplishes his purposes, is it wrong for me to argue that if people do not have their basic needs met then it follows that human beings are not responding properly to the divinely-given responsibility to solve those problems? Why can’t I be equally angry as you but direct my anger to humans beings (like us) who are not doing what we are “called” to do? Aren’t the trials that we face in this world also opportunities for heroic acts? Isn’t our struggle against the forces of nature an opportunity to use the gifts of intelligence and freedom to triumph over them?
c. Furthermore, what if this world is a “work in progress”? What you seem to be suggesting is that the world should be entirely free of struggle, pain, suffering, etc. What if this world is a “middle earth” of sorts; a world between nothing and perfection? What if our journey is this world is a journey towards supreme happiness and the sufferings of this life are ways that we develop a memory that will enhance that greater world? What if our sufferings and struggles are ways of reminding us of our goal and that this world is not the “end all”? Your argument seems to assume that this world must be absolutely perfect (however you choose to define that) and that God must directly intervene at every point to make sure that is the case or God was unjust to even make a world like this. I think what I have suggested is a valid alternative.
d. In short, I would comment on “Epicurus’” points as follows. Notice that my comments are driven by optimism and hope, not by pessimistically focusing on evil. I think this problem can be adequately addressed if we focus on the potentialities for good in the world and the grounds for hope rather than the problems that hope can address:
1. God allows evil to exist because through its allowance human virtue and excellence may be developed and expressed. Although “able” to prevent evil (because omnipotent) God does not because his omnipotence will be expressed along with his wisdom in triumphing over it.
2.God is willing to overcome evil (not “prevent” it) but will do so in his way, not as dictated by narrow, human perceptions of how this should be done.
3.God is both able and willing to overcome evil. Evil comes from the human will when the will is distorted or from the interaction of physical causality as it functions according to physical laws that are not, in themselves, evil.
4.God is able and willing to overcome evil and will do so. I call him God because he is Lord of history and all things will ultimately serve his good purposes for the world.
e. I’m leaving out a deeper problem that should be addressed in such a discussion. “Evil,” as used here, is a term of moral evaluation. Judging something as “evil” presupposes some standard by which that judgment is made. If we eliminate God, no supreme standard of moral judgment exists. Animal suffering and pain is a fact of nature. How does it become objectively evil? Just because we don’t like something doesn’t mean it is morally “evil.” Denying the existence of God (or an ultimate basis of “goodness”) also eliminates the grounds of objective moral judgments. If so, the argument against God from evil collapses since there is no objective moral evil left to use as an argument against God.0 -
dang, you're good!
I'm glad you've joined the discussion! Your point of view is similar to several people I've had conversations with before. Here are some thoughts on what you've posed here:I hear ya - it really depends on if you believe in the omnipotence and overall demeanor of a god, as posed by Epicurus in his well-known questions:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.
Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent.
Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?
It seems to me like an eternal struggle of the above.
As far as the OP's question of prayer, I have always *had* to equate it with meditation and as a therapeutic element.
As a background, I was brought up in an a-religious household which has left me a clean slate for all this, but also somewhat ignorant of the daily practices of religious folks (except what I've observed and read up on) so the idea of prayer is interesting, to say the least.
Overall it's quite fascinating from my perspective, which seems unique as I've met few people also unexposed to religion in early life, but also quite mind-blowing...!
1.The assumption of “Epicurus’” reasoning is that evil must be immediately destroyed in order for God to be exonerated of the charge of malevolence, etc. I think this is faulty for a variety of reasons. First, we do not follow this way of action in our affairs as humans. Consider something like this:
a. Is the United States able to stop evil acts in Syria or Iran? Yes. Why doesn’t it? Well, it must be that the United States is evil because it does not immediately intervene to stop every evil act that it has the power to stop. This just doesn’t sound right, does it? Someone would probably first reply by saying that the United States does not have the “right” to immediately intervene in acts that fall under the authority or domain of another authority. What if God chose to make a world in which certain “aims” or goals are achieved through “mediators” or instrumental causes? Is there something wrong with that? Is it somehow unjust or inherently wrong for God to make a world in which creatures have duties and responsibilities to participate in accomplishing God’s purposes? I don’t see anything intrinsically wrong with that concept. What if, in making such a world, God does not intervene in free human acts (or acts of nature) in order to alter their very nature? If there is a “problem” with the world, then, God works through nature and human freedom/intelligence in order to solve it.
b. If there is nothing intrinsically disordered or wrong about God making a world that has interior, dynamic forces (including intelligent freedom) that are the “means” through which God accomplishes his purposes, is it wrong for me to argue that if people do not have their basic needs met then it follows that human beings are not responding properly to the divinely-given responsibility to solve those problems? Why can’t I be equally angry as you but direct my anger to humans beings (like us) who are not doing what we are “called” to do? Aren’t the trials that we face in this world also opportunities for heroic acts? Isn’t our struggle against the forces of nature an opportunity to use the gifts of intelligence and freedom to triumph over them?
c. Furthermore, what if this world is a “work in progress”? What you seem to be suggesting is that the world should be entirely free of struggle, pain, suffering, etc. What if this world is a “middle earth” of sorts; a world between nothing and perfection? What if our journey is this world is a journey towards supreme happiness and the sufferings of this life are ways that we develop a memory that will enhance that greater world? What if our sufferings and struggles are ways of reminding us of our goal and that this world is not the “end all”? Your argument seems to assume that this world must be absolutely perfect (however you choose to define that) and that God must directly intervene at every point to make sure that is the case or God was unjust to even make a world like this. I think what I have suggested is a valid alternative.
d. In short, I would comment on “Epicurus’” points as follows. Notice that my comments are driven by optimism and hope, not by pessimistically focusing on evil. I think this problem can be adequately addressed if we focus on the potentialities for good in the world and the grounds for hope rather than the problems that hope can address:
1. God allows evil to exist because through its allowance human virtue and excellence may be developed and expressed. Although “able” to prevent evil (because omnipotent) God does not because his omnipotence will be expressed along with his wisdom in triumphing over it.
2.God is willing to overcome evil (not “prevent” it) but will do so in his way, not as dictated by narrow, human perceptions of how this should be done.
3.God is both able and willing to overcome evil. Evil comes from the human will when the will is distorted or from the interaction of physical causality as it functions according to physical laws that are not, in themselves, evil.
4.God is able and willing to overcome evil and will do so. I call him God because he is Lord of history and all things will ultimately serve his good purposes for the world.
e. I’m leaving out a deeper problem that should be addressed in such a discussion. “Evil,” as used here, is a term of moral evaluation. Judging something as “evil” presupposes some standard by which that judgment is made. If we eliminate God, no supreme standard of moral judgment exists. Animal suffering and pain is a fact of nature. How does it become objectively evil? Just because we don’t like something doesn’t mean it is morally “evil.” Denying the existence of God (or an ultimate basis of “goodness”) also eliminates the grounds of objective moral judgments. If so, the argument against God from evil collapses since there is no objective moral evil left to use as an argument against God.0 -
Macpatti, excellent points.
It's been interesting to read all the views, especially those about what God "should" be doing with evil . That scares me because if we have a God who wipes out evil (and thereby, evil people as well), and who makes everything perfect according to our views of utopia, then we all better be perfect ourselves lest we meet with the same fate because justice from God would have to be absolute, perfect justice with no exceptions whether we're talking about an evil dictator, murderer, abuser, thief or liar. No room for grace or chance of redemption and since none of us is without sin, we'd all be subject to the same form of justice the next time we screw up. One country or group of people unjustly declares war on another - wipe them out. Someone hurts an animal. Zap. Someone kills someone else, zap. Someone lies, cheats or steals. Bye-bye. Commit adultery - Zap again. Feed your kid unhealthy McDonalds food... Ok, that might not apply but some people do feel that strongly about parents who do as being bad parents.
The point is, we all have our own standard as to what we consider good or evil. If we expect God to intervene at every turn, what we end up with is forced submission to a dictator with no need for redemption or something more after this life because we'd have heaven on earth, right? But what if what Joe thinks is the standard for goodness is different than someone else's...say someone who thought Hitler was right? This kind of thinking, if approached logically as Joe wants us to do, means that basically every person gets to set their own standards for morality and their "god" would do things differently according to each person's belief. Many of us would say God should have stopped Hitler, yet according to some of the logic here, if God should wipe out evil according to what each of us believes, then does that mean Hitler would have been justified in thinking God should likewise have wiped out anyone who didin't fit with his (Hitler's) belief in an Aryan utopia? Do you see the problem with every man/woman doing what is right in their own eyes and expecting God to get rid of anything that doesn't fit in with their view of a perfect, evil-free world?
Maybe the reason God doesn't intervene more is because he is offering the same chance for grace, forgiveness, and redemption for each of us, whether it be dictator or someone like me who is naturally selfish, snarky, and unforgiving without the filter of Christ. I believe God loves every person and by withholding his anger against sin, is giving each of us every chance possible to choose him and be better. That's what grace is about. Thank goodness he DOESN'T intervene every time someone does something bad because that means I'd have been gone a long time ago.
Further, if this life is it, as some here apparently believe, then I hope Joe and everyone else is living it up now because what you have now is all there is. Last one gone, turn out the lights.
The other thing that is so illogical about parts of this discussion is Joe's repeated implication that the Bible is somehow invalid as a credible source of history simply because it is about God. It's a documentation of historical events as much as any other, mostly based on eyewitness accounts, which is pretty much what recorded history is. All history started as oral witness of accounts passed from one person or group to another, then people started recording events and eyewitness accounts in writing. There IS "peer review" where scripture is concerned. Was it always spot-on factually without embellishment and without human error in the interpretation? Maybe not, but the same is true of any historical account. To say the Bible is a bunch of stories without validity is to say that every other account of ancient history is likewise invalid. The thing is, much of what is recorded in the Bible has been validated by secular historians, other ancient historical records, modern archeologists, and even science. If some of it has been proven valid, then shouldn't we at least entertain the thought that the rest could also be true? I think that sounds logical.
But the bottom line to this whole discussion, since we are talking about Christianity, is the person Christianity is based on - Jesus Christ. The whole faith centers on his death and resurrection as payment for our sin, and what each person decides to believe about that. According to the Bible and Christianity, where and with whom we spend eternity has nothing to do with how good any of us are or how many good things we do in this life. It all comes down to what we believe about Jesus.
Not preaching, but just pointing out that all the other issues of debate sidestep the core tenent of Christianity since that is the religion we are talking about here. We can debate all the other issues all we want, but what it comes down to is what a person believes about who Christ is and how they choose to respond to that. Because God isn't a dictator who forces us to submit to his will, we each get to choose what we will believe and who we will follow.0 -
The laughing I mentioned Patti was about confession. Honestly I don't think that it's nothing more than just saying to a child "say you're sorry and don't do it again". When I was attending, I ALWAYS had something to confess about. And you know how it goes with confession. A couple of hail mary's and our father's and slate is clean till next week. Not really a good deterrent if as a kid you felt that you could start over again each week with just telling a priest, then saying some recited prayers.To say "most people" is false. Maybe most Catholics that you know, but that is not true of most Catholics in general. I love going to church. I love teaching my CCE class before mass. I love listening to the readings, singing the songs, praying, and spending time with God. I know so many Catholics who feel the same way.
You can have an opinion about religion and debate it without laughing at it. That's just disrespectful. I'm trying to have a constructive converstation with you, and I've never ridiculed atheism or any other belief that I don't share. Let's just be cool with each other as we explain our differences.
So do you think that it's an easy out for some who just feel that sin doesn't matter much as long as they go to confession? And what's to deter them from stopping when it's not anything more inconvenient than saying a couple of prayers?
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I personally don't have anything against christians (or I would personally have to dislike almost all my family and many friends) but again the actual dogma of the religion itself. If god isn't a dictator, and jesus is the ONLY way what happens to people who have no exposure to christianity at all? Or to all the Muslims? Or Buddists? Are they really going to perish? If so, isn't that a kind of dictatorship?Macpatti, excellent points.
It's been interesting to read all the views, especially those about what God "should" be doing with evil . That scares me because if we have a God who wipes out evil (and thereby, evil people as well), and who makes everything perfect according to our views of utopia, then we all better be perfect ourselves lest we meet with the same fate because justice from God would have to be absolute, perfect justice with no exceptions whether we're talking about an evil dictator, murderer, abuser, thief or liar. No room for grace or chance of redemption and since none of us is without sin, we'd all be subject to the same form of justice the next time we screw up. One country or group of people unjustly declares war on another - wipe them out. Someone hurts an animal. Zap. Someone kills someone else, zap. Someone lies, cheats or steals. Bye-bye. Commit adultery - Zap again. Feed your kid unhealthy McDonalds food... Ok, that might not apply but some people do feel that strongly about parents who do as being bad parents.
The point is, we all have our own standard as to what we consider good or evil. If we expect God to intervene at every turn, what we end up with is forced submission to a dictator with no need for redemption or something more after this life because we'd have heaven on earth, right? But what if what Joe thinks is the standard for goodness is different than someone else's...say someone who thought Hitler was right? This kind of thinking, if approached logically as Joe wants us to do, means that basically every person gets to set their own standards for morality and their "god" would do things differently according to each person's belief. Many of us would say God should have stopped Hitler, yet according to some of the logic here, if God should wipe out evil according to what each of us believes, then does that mean Hitler would have been justified in thinking God should likewise have wiped out anyone who didin't fit with his (Hitler's) belief in an Aryan utopia? Do you see the problem with every man/woman doing what is right in their own eyes and expecting God to get rid of anything that doesn't fit in with their view of a perfect, evil-free world?
Maybe the reason God doesn't intervene more is because he is offering the same chance for grace, forgiveness, and redemption for each of us, whether it be dictator or someone like me who is naturally selfish, snarky, and unforgiving without the filter of Christ. I believe God loves every person and by withholding his anger against sin, is giving each of us every chance possible to choose him and be better. That's what grace is about. Thank goodness he DOESN'T intervene every time someone does something bad because that means I'd have been gone a long time ago.
Further, if this life is it, as some here apparently believe, then I hope Joe and everyone else is living it up now because what you have now is all there is. Last one gone, turn out the lights.
The other thing that is so illogical about parts of this discussion is Joe's repeated implication that the Bible is somehow invalid as a credible source of history simply because it is about God. It's a documentation of historical events as much as any other, mostly based on eyewitness accounts, which is pretty much what recorded history is. All history started as oral witness of accounts passed from one person or group to another, then people started recording events and eyewitness accounts in writing. There IS "peer review" where scripture is concerned. Was it always spot-on factually without embellishment and without human error in the interpretation? Maybe not, but the same is true of any historical account. To say the Bible is a bunch of stories without validity is to say that every other account of ancient history is likewise invalid. The thing is, much of what is recorded in the Bible has been validated by secular historians, other ancient historical records, modern archeologists, and even science. If some of it has been proven valid, then shouldn't we at least entertain the thought that the rest could also be true? I think that sounds logical.
But the bottom line to this whole discussion, since we are talking about Christianity, is the person Christianity is based on - Jesus Christ. The whole faith centers on his death and resurrection as payment for our sin, and what each person decides to believe about that. According to the Bible and Christianity, where and with whom we spend eternity has nothing to do with how good any of us are or how many good things we do in this life. It all comes down to what we believe about Jesus.
Not preaching, but just pointing out that all the other issues of debate sidestep the core tenent of Christianity since that is the religion we are talking about here. We can debate all the other issues all we want, but what it comes down to is what a person believes about who Christ is and how they choose to respond to that. Because God isn't a dictator who forces us to submit to his will, we each get to choose what we will believe and who we will follow.
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Whoooaaaah! Thanks, Macpatti, for taking the time to write out your response. It's a little more than I can process but I'm trying
I wasn't using the Epicurus quote as a means of expressing my specific thoughts or feelings but I think it does bring up good points (that are being well addressed).
Like I mentioned before, I'm one of those having no religion at home growing up. Exposure, perhaps, but never in an exegetical way - just observation. I'd also be interested in knowing of cases where adults have become religious after being raised without any religion at all or any religious teachings/influence as a child/young adult.
One major thing for me, in a global and historical sense, is where specific religions fit in with each other - like ninerbuff touched on, what about the tremendous amount of "other" out there? Nontheists, atheists, and the multitude of other religions?0 -
Be grateful you weren't denied absolution. I went to confession one time and the priest told me that he could not absolve me of my sins until I met certain conditions. It was a shock to say the least. But it caused me to evaluate my life and what I was doing wrong. I really am grateful for that priest. I have had plenty of times in recent years where many of my family have questioned why I haven't left the Catholic faith, why I embrace it as much as I do. I love Christ, and the Catholic Church was founded by Him. So, do I pout when I can't have my selfish ways, or do I strive for holiness in actions, words, and thoughts. I will choose Christ every time and continue to strive for holiness instead of coming up with my own guidelines based solely on my own desires.
The laughing I mentioned Patti was about confession. Honestly I don't think that it's nothing more than just saying to a child "say you're sorry and don't do it again". When I was attending, I ALWAYS had something to confess about. And you know how it goes with confession. A couple of hail mary's and our father's and slate is clean till next week. Not really a good deterrent if as a kid you felt that you could start over again each week with just telling a priest, then saying some recited prayers.
So do you think that it's an easy out for some who just feel that sin doesn't matter much as long as they go to confession? And what's to deter them from stopping when it's not anything more inconvenient than saying a couple of prayers?
A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0
This discussion has been closed.