suicide: do we have a right to death?
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But what if they can be given something for their depression and something else for the pain? I've had a family member die of stomach cancer, and she was in so much pain at the end. She was also depressed and probably hoping she'd just die. The doctors were able to treat her depression and give her medication that all but put her in a coma. She was then able to die naturally. I'm just not sure that someone who is in such great pain, depressed, and hopeless is in the right frame of mind at that point to ask someone to help them end their life.The case of being terminally ill with depression is still different. They aren't going to get better. Yes they can be given medication to improve their mood but they won't ever improve physically, still dying.
That is still just dragging it on. The only difference in that case is that you die naturally but you are putting it off and your family can be left with more expenses from a longer medical treatment.
They may not be in the right frame of mind at that moment, I don't know that anyone could. But if they have it in a legal document before hand, such as a DNR order, that should be acceptable.
Edited for spelling.0 -
Certainly, compos mentis is an absolute requirement of informed consent, but does suicidal intention always automatically infer an altered state of mind? Certainly the majority of 'impulse' or depression-linked suicides could be classified as non-compos-mentis, but what about someone who has been told, for example, that they have a chronic illness that is not terminal, but will leave them in constant pain, with an extremely poor quality of life? Grief is another interesting one - how do we handle the elderly person who has lost their life-partner of decades, feels they have lived their life well, but has simply had enough, and prefers not to live on without the companionship and love they have shared with their partner all their adult life? Assuming this is not the earliest stages of grief, or shock, in the first instance, that person might very well be compos mentis and suicidal. If either of those people makes an informed, compos mentis decision to end their life, where do we stand on that, and on the medic who might help them to achieve their goal?
Certainly there are cases where a person has suicidal ideation and does not fit the standard definition of non compos mentis. However I would suggest that those cases are rare. In the first example you gave above, a diagnosis of a life altering, painful chronic illness can trigger depressive symptoms, and one could argue that in such a case a person could still not be capable of making such a decision. The same could apply to the grief scenario you presented.
Often, diagnosis of a terminal illness of grief can trigger a situational depression, even in a person with no prior history of depression. A person might not even be aware that they are depressed. I would argue that suicidal ideation is very rare in a person with no depressive symptoms.
In such a case, no, I would not support assisted suicide.0 -
I would support it in the case of the terminally ill. I watched my grandmother suffer for months with terminal cancer as it sucked the life out of her and made her miserable for the last 6 months of her life. As much as I cherish that time with her, it would have been better for her to have the choice if she wished to end it before the pain started. I would have supported her choice either way.
If someone chooses to end their life early after they have made the rational choice to do so (in the case of the terminally ill), they should have access to medication that would make it as painless as possible also.
For others suffering from depression or other mental health issues, absolutely not, but we need a much better support network for people who are suffering and are suicidal than we do now.
This exactly! I had the same experience with my grandmother. At 99 years of age, she broke both hips and ended up with double pneumonia and congestive heart failure in the hospital. She was begging the doctors to end her life for 3 months, but they couldn't. As her medical power of attorney, I finally chose to remove her fluid IV (which was the only thing sustaining her since she wasn't eating), and let her die of dehydration (this took 3 grueling weeks). It would have been so much more humane to give her an overdose of painkillers.
But no, I don't think same holds true for someone who is physically healthy, but depressed or otherwise mentally ill. That's a completely different story because with proper treatment, they can get better.0 -
It is exactly the situations where an individual of sound mind cannot practically or physically end his or her life where assisted suicide comes in (with rigorous checks and balances, of course). Otherwise, it isn't too difficult to cobble together the right amount of "whatever" to end your life if you so desired and doctors need not be involved (or at least involved in prescribing a lethal dosage).0
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You all should watch the Frontline special about The Suicide Tourist. *warning this is very sad, as they go through the entire process*
http://video.pbs.org/video/1430431984/
He was in his sound mine and chose to take his life before he was not able to choose it anymore. The people who do this with terminally ill patients are very professional and even in other countries have strict rules.
I do not at all think this should be "legal" for people who are not terminally ill (except for some very rare cases of quadriplegics who truly for many years wish to end their suffering but can not on their own, not even illegally) Situations can change, brain chemistry can be helped with medication. etc. I think you would be hard pressed to find any kind of doctor anywhere who would aid a non terminally ill depressed person in their suicide.0 -
Certainly, compos mentis is an absolute requirement of informed consent, but does suicidal intention always automatically infer an altered state of mind? Certainly the majority of 'impulse' or depression-linked suicides could be classified as non-compos-mentis, but what about someone who has been told, for example, that they have a chronic illness that is not terminal, but will leave them in constant pain, with an extremely poor quality of life? Grief is another interesting one - how do we handle the elderly person who has lost their life-partner of decades, feels they have lived their life well, but has simply had enough, and prefers not to live on without the companionship and love they have shared with their partner all their adult life? Assuming this is not the earliest stages of grief, or shock, in the first instance, that person might very well be compos mentis and suicidal. If either of those people makes an informed, compos mentis decision to end their life, where do we stand on that, and on the medic who might help them to achieve their goal?
Certainly there are cases where a person has suicidal ideation and does not fit the standard definition of non compos mentis. However I would suggest that those cases are rare. In the first example you gave above, a diagnosis of a life altering, painful chronic illness can trigger depressive symptoms, and one could argue that in such a case a person could still not be capable of making such a decision. The same could apply to the grief scenario you presented.
Often, diagnosis of a terminal illness of grief can trigger a situational depression, even in a person with no prior history of depression. A person might not even be aware that they are depressed. I would argue that suicidal ideation is very rare in a person with no depressive symptoms.
In such a case, no, I would not support assisted suicide.
Perhaps I didn't choose ideal situations to suggest - thinking on my feet! - but this does bring me back to another question. Situational depression is very different to chronic mental illness, and extremely hard to quantify. How 'depressed' do we have to 'think' someone is before they are NCM?
'Say in the chronic illness scenario, it's a year, or two, after diagnosis. The patient has lived with his or her symptoms, and has seen the quality of life that is possible. They are functioning, adult members of society. In everything else, we trust to their judgement of what is best for them. Why do we, as a society, think it should still be our right to dictate that this person must endure the suffering and degraded quality of life they know is coming, rather than allowing them to choose to end their life, simply because we think they may be experiencing situational depression. Presumably they have made every other decision over the last two years in the same or a similar state, including decisions that affect others. Why do we have the right to interfere in this decision, but not in the others, when the only person affected at all is the patient him- or herself?0 -
This exactly! I had the same experience with my grandmother. At 99 years of age, she broke both hips and ended up with double pneumonia and congestive heart failure in the hospital. She was begging the doctors to end her life for 3 months, but they couldn't. As her medical power of attorney, I finally chose to remove her fluid IV (which was the only thing sustaining her since she wasn't eating), and let her die of dehydration (this took 3 grueling weeks). It would have been so much more humane to give her an overdose of painkillers.
This puzzles me as well. Why is it alright to remove the thing sustaining life, and allow someone to suffer until they eventually 'die naturally', but not alright to give that same person a humane, dignified and painless death through medical intervention?0 -
But what if they can be given something for their depression and something else for the pain? I've had a family member die of stomach cancer, and she was in so much pain at the end. She was also depressed and probably hoping she'd just die. The doctors were able to treat her depression and give her medication that all but put her in a coma. She was then able to die naturally. I'm just not sure that someone who is in such great pain, depressed, and hopeless is in the right frame of mind at that point to ask someone to help them end their life.
Let's not assume that the desire to die indicates a diminished mental capacity by necessity. To do so indicates a very specific ideological premise that shouldn't be forced on others. That is, we can't assume someone is crazy because they don't have precisely the same value on staying alive at all costs as some other person might.0 -
Let me throw this into the mix. My grandmother has dementia. She doesn't recognize anyone, needs assisting with bodily functions, hygiene and food, changing clothes, everything. If I was diagnosed with dementia, and did not want to end up with essentially no mind, why can I not choose to end my life? She has no dignity, no quality of life. I'm not saying anything about ending her life, but making plans should this happen to me.0
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Let me throw this into the mix. My grandmother has dementia. She doesn't recognize anyone, needs assisting with bodily functions, hygiene and food, changing clothes, everything. If I was diagnosed with dementia, and did not want to end up with essentially no mind, why can I not choose to end my life? She has no dignity, no quality of life. I'm not saying anything about ending her life, but making plans should this happen to me.
In a case like this, an advance directive, written while you are of sound mind, would be ideal. Otherwise appoint a substitute decision maker to make your medical and legal decisions.
As an aside, I'm sorry about your grandmother- my grandmother also suffered from dementia and it's a hard thing.0 -
Let me throw this into the mix. My grandmother has dementia. She doesn't recognize anyone, needs assisting with bodily functions, hygiene and food, changing clothes, everything. If I was diagnosed with dementia, and did not want to end up with essentially no mind, why can I not choose to end my life? She has no dignity, no quality of life. I'm not saying anything about ending her life, but making plans should this happen to me.
In a case like this, an advance directive, written while you are of sound mind, would be ideal. Otherwise appoint a substitute decision maker to make your medical and legal decisions.
As an aside, I'm sorry about your grandmother- my grandmother also suffered from dementia and it's a hard thing.
Thank you. I'm sorry about your grandmother as well. I agree that while I'm of sound mind I should be able to made the decision, fill out the appropriate paperwork and be able to have my life terminated before getting to the stage my grandmother is in.0 -
My hubby's grandma was like this. We went to MI for Christmas 2010 to see her again and say goodbye. MIL was actually surprised that she survived through the holidays. She even had her basement already set up for the gathering after the funeral. It was inevitable. Grandma had been going downhill for years. She wasn't even really speaking anymore. She couldn't chew so she was living on those Ensure shakes. By mid August she couldn't even swallow. She didn't pass away for nearly a month after that.Let me throw this into the mix. My grandmother has dementia. She doesn't recognize anyone, needs assisting with bodily functions, hygiene and food, changing clothes, everything. If I was diagnosed with dementia, and did not want to end up with essentially no mind, why can I not choose to end my life? She has no dignity, no quality of life. I'm not saying anything about ending her life, but making plans should this happen to me.
Her death wasn't even something I could grieve. It was a relief. I wish she could have died with dignity on her own terms. That's what she would have wanted. It's a damn shame that we treat dying animals with more dignity. When you put down a cat or dog you say you wanted to end their suffering. Why can't we allow people who have a voice and mind to make that choice for themselves?0 -
[Her death wasn't even something I could grieve. It was a relief. I wish she could have died with dignity on her own terms. That's what she would have wanted. It's a damn shame that we treat dying animals with more dignity. When you put down a cat or dog you say you wanted to end their suffering. Why can't we allow people who have a voice and mind to make that choice for themselves?
That's exactly how I feel. My grandmother is alive, healthy even, can talk. But she's not there. Essentially I feel that she doesn't exist any more. I know she'd be horrified by her life right now. And I will be relieved when she doesn't have to suffer anymore.0 -
Let me throw this into the mix. My grandmother has dementia. She doesn't recognize anyone, needs assisting with bodily functions, hygiene and food, changing clothes, everything. If I was diagnosed with dementia, and did not want to end up with essentially no mind, why can I not choose to end my life? She has no dignity, no quality of life. I'm not saying anything about ending her life, but making plans should this happen to me.
Ah, my grandmother had dementia as well, and a lot of other health complications added to it. I was in the room when she died, and she died in her sleep, so I'm not sure if she felt any pain, but that was the single worst thing I've ever had to witness firsthand. My parents placed her in the best assisted living facility in town, and she had extremely wonderful, caring nurses looking after her at all times and never experienced any of the "nursing home horror stories" that you hear about, so her situation was as best as it could be, provided the circumstances. I can't sit here and say "I wish they'd have let her die before the disease set in so badly that she knew absolutely nothing and couldn't even move in her own bed on her own," because I don't know what went on in her head. But I know I never, ever want to be in that situation. This thread is a very sobering reminder that if you do want to control how you leave this world, should something like that happen, then a living will is a must.0 -
Every human has dignity! Do not equate a lack of many functions with not having dignity. She is human, therefore she has dignity!Let me throw this into the mix. My grandmother has dementia. She doesn't recognize anyone, needs assisting with bodily functions, hygiene and food, changing clothes, everything. If I was diagnosed with dementia, and did not want to end up with essentially no mind, why can I not choose to end my life? She has no dignity, no quality of life. I'm not saying anything about ending her life, but making plans should this happen to me.0 -
Every human has dignity! Do not equate a lack of many functions with not having dignity. She is human, therefore she has dignity!Let me throw this into the mix. My grandmother has dementia. She doesn't recognize anyone, needs assisting with bodily functions, hygiene and food, changing clothes, everything. If I was diagnosed with dementia, and did not want to end up with essentially no mind, why can I not choose to end my life? She has no dignity, no quality of life. I'm not saying anything about ending her life, but making plans should this happen to me.
If I was in the same position as her, I would feel that I had no dignity. Hence my comment.0 -
Ditto. Absolutely.
Every human has dignity! Do not equate a lack of many functions with not having dignity. She is human, therefore she has dignity!Let me throw this into the mix. My grandmother has dementia. She doesn't recognize anyone, needs assisting with bodily functions, hygiene and food, changing clothes, everything. If I was diagnosed with dementia, and did not want to end up with essentially no mind, why can I not choose to end my life? She has no dignity, no quality of life. I'm not saying anything about ending her life, but making plans should this happen to me.
If I was in the same position as her, I would feel that I had no dignity. Hence my comment.0 -
Ditto. Absolutely.
Every human has dignity! Do not equate a lack of many functions with not having dignity. She is human, therefore she has dignity!Let me throw this into the mix. My grandmother has dementia. She doesn't recognize anyone, needs assisting with bodily functions, hygiene and food, changing clothes, everything. If I was diagnosed with dementia, and did not want to end up with essentially no mind, why can I not choose to end my life? She has no dignity, no quality of life. I'm not saying anything about ending her life, but making plans should this happen to me.
If I was in the same position as her, I would feel that I had no dignity. Hence my comment.
Yeah, same. Hell, in some cultures/religions, the elderly, when they KNOW are going to die soon, or just feel they're ready to move on, they "take matters into their own hands," so to speak. And it isn't frowned upon in any way.0 -
OK, I have a better grasp on this now. I just read in the local paper that a 97 year old man in a nursing home by my office slit his 97 year old wife's wrists and then his own. Both are alive and non-life threatening injuries. Hi swife has dementia and doesn't have a clue as to what happened or what is going on. It makes me very sad for this man that he has to share a room in a home with his wife and watch her suffer. It seems like it is time for them to go in peace.0
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Wow. This subject has so many variables. Do I think people have the right to choose their own death? Absolutely..BUT only under certain situations. I know there are many terrible conditions out there that could make living a daily agonizing experience and I think those people should be able to end it and be at peace. But even those with say dementia, to such an extent they can't feed themselves and/or perform needed bodily functions without assistance....if they had made provisions to have an assisted suicide should this ever occur then they have the absolute right to that....I would do that myself. I would also not want to continue living were I brain dead and hooked up to who knows how many machines just so I could breath...that is not life, that is lingering. I believe they have the right to assisted suicide as well.
The only ones who I don't think should be able to just die are those suffering from depression, because that is treatable and once they are no longer depressed, there is a good chance they will no longer wish to die.0 -
This exactly! I had the same experience with my grandmother. At 99 years of age, she broke both hips and ended up with double pneumonia and congestive heart failure in the hospital. She was begging the doctors to end her life for 3 months, but they couldn't. As her medical power of attorney, I finally chose to remove her fluid IV (which was the only thing sustaining her since she wasn't eating), and let her die of dehydration (this took 3 grueling weeks). It would have been so much more humane to give her an overdose of painkillers.
This puzzles me as well. Why is it alright to remove the thing sustaining life, and allow someone to suffer until they eventually 'die naturally', but not alright to give that same person a humane, dignified and painless death through medical intervention?
I agree with this. I'm a social worker with over 65s and see daily the physical and mental conditions that may lie ahead. I think the decision has to be made in sound mind of course, and to protect ourselves, advanced directives are the way forward for our families/friends/us. Then we know what we/our loved ones want and can uphold their wishes. Again this should be done by us all: what if we're in an accident and paralysed/brain damaged? It's not only the quality of my life, but I'd worry about being a burden on others. And here in the UK if I WANT to die if something were to happen, insurance isn't an issue, so the state pays to 'keep you well' in nursing care or whatever. At huge financial cost and against my wishes?
There is an argument...from the moment we're born we're all terminal and are all going to die of something and at some point, so I feel, as many have said, it's my mody and my choice. If I'm in sound mind. And I know the argument is potentially as we're hard-wired to stay alive, are we of sound mind if we're suicidal? I think if I tell someone I'm suicidal, they should try to help. If I haven't succeeded in ending it, offer me help. But basically if you're hell-bent on it, you'll find a way. It's those who're dependent on others that I feel for most as I think many would wish this, and their families would wish to help, but can't.0 -
Didn't we just have this discussion last week?
Oh well, pardon me for recycling, but I am going to re-post my comment from that thread to share my recent personal experience:As an interesting aside to the discussion, I recently witnessed this process first hand. An elderly relative fell, broke a hip, and developed pneumonia--the grim reaper trifecta. The relative still lived alone (triple digits here) and was of reasonably sound mind and health for the age.
But at that age, this particular strain of pneumonia was incurable. After being informed of this and of what the process of dying of pneumonia would be like, the relative stated that " I just want to go to sleep". As lung function started to decline, the morphine was increased--knowing this would depress the breathing further. At the same time, the oxygen was also decreased. Even with this, the relative hung on for a couple of days. Finally, the full oxygen mask was removed and the end followed within the hour.
Obviously, the doctors and nurses knew how to do this. I suppose it technically wasn't "physician assisted suicide", but they definitely greased the slide, so to speak.
Again, I don't see how anyone could consider this "devaluing life". It was bad enough as it was on the immediate family to endure this for a week or so.0 -
I totally agree that people should be able to end their lives (and it be assisted) when they chose not to live anymore.
As for depressed people ending their lives, I'm still unsure. I went through a depression, and at some points I would think to myself "If I don't wake up tomorrow morning, I wouldn't really mind..." but I would never do anything to end my own life. Maybe it's the fact that I'm squeamish and I know that I would hate having to do that myself, or because of my religion. But as much as I wanted to die at some points, I had something driving me to keep going. I don't think that applies to everybody with depression, though.0 -
Didn't we just have this discussion last week?
Oh well, pardon me for recycling, but I am going to re-post my comment from that thread to share my recent personal experience:As an interesting aside to the discussion, I recently witnessed this process first hand. An elderly relative fell, broke a hip, and developed pneumonia--the grim reaper trifecta. The relative still lived alone (triple digits here) and was of reasonably sound mind and health for the age.
But at that age, this particular strain of pneumonia was incurable. After being informed of this and of what the process of dying of pneumonia would be like, the relative stated that " I just want to go to sleep". As lung function started to decline, the morphine was increased--knowing this would depress the breathing further. At the same time, the oxygen was also decreased. Even with this, the relative hung on for a couple of days. Finally, the full oxygen mask was removed and the end followed within the hour.
Obviously, the doctors and nurses knew how to do this. I suppose it technically wasn't "physician assisted suicide", but they definitely greased the slide, so to speak.
Again, I don't see how anyone could consider this "devaluing life". It was bad enough as it was on the immediate family to endure this for a week or so.
I believe I was the person who posted the topic you were talking about here, in fact, it was even called "The Right To Death." Maybe I should sue somebody for copyright infringement! :laugh:0 -
In cases where someone is so ill that they can't enjoy any quality of life, of course they should be allowed to end it.
For depression suicide, no, the suicidal thoughts are a symptom of a mental disease that can be cured, they are not of sound mind to decide they want to kill themselves.
There's all this talk of abuse yada yada, but there would be a complicated process and paperwork and mental health evaluations, it wouldn't be a case of "Granny's getting too expensive, let's drop her off at the suicide clinic!"
If someone is that determined to murder granny, they'll do it assisted suicide or no assisted suicide.
One of the most stupid arguments I've heard is that old people will kill themselves if they feel they're a burden to their family, cmon, people are pretty selfish, I really doubt this would happen - and if it did, there would be other factors involved such as mental illness or decreased quality in life due to the effects of illness or old age.
Doctors are meant to save lives yes, but you could argue it's not really life if there is no quality to it. And they don't have to administer the deadly dose themselves, family or friends could do the final part.
as for religion, one could argue that terminal patients/barely conscious bed bound patients have already had their death sentence handed out by god, and are merely speeding it up. And if you've been struck with a horrible disease or illness or accident that puts you in constant pain and really reduces your quality of life, then one could be forgiven for saying f**k god, I'm out!
And finally, for the religious argument, fine if you believe that life is precious and you're going to hell if you kill yourself - don't get an assisted suicide! But for people don't believe the same, why does it matter what your view is?0 -
If one genuinely has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, one should be allowed to end one's life if it has become so unbearable due to illness, old age, and/or depression. Assisted suicide should be legal for the terminally ill. I'm not sure about assisted suicide for the elderly or depressed. I think there are many options that can be considered for improving their lives, especially the depressed.
Here's the thing about morality: It's subjective. Here's the thing about America: It's secular.
Personally, I think it's the morally righteous thing to do to end the suffering of a wounded animal in the woods, just as I think it's the morally righteous thing to do to pull the plug on someone ill for whom there is no cure. The right to death doesn't mean that this will lead to state mandated euthanasia, it's just an option that should be available to the one considering suicide and their family and friends. If you don't want to consider suicide because you think it is a moral wrong due to your religion, than don't commit suicide, even if you are stricken with an incurable illness. But if the option to pull the plug on someone may rest in your hands one day, I can only ask that you consider whether they may disagree with your views and if death would be an improvement for them. That's all.0 -
I would never consider suicide unless something happened where I wouldn't be able to care for myself and I would be a burden on my family.
In that scenario, I would consider suicide. Don't really care what the world thinks about that. If some government entity decided that I shouldn't be able to and tried to intervene, go ahead and arrest my dead body.0 -
I don't know.....for terminally ill patients....its one thing....but for people who just want to do cuz they want to absolutely NO...Cuz there are reasons why people want to die...I.E depression. You could get help for that......I don't want to my tax money going to someone that needs help to kill themselves.
Tough subject....I would say NO for just anyone.....undecided about terminally ill patients. I believe we should all fight for life but when you are dying.....I just don't know. I personally don't believe in suicide period. But if other dying people do to ease their pain...that's their decision. But I still don't really think that tax payers should pay for it.
This is my stance as well.0 -
I think for terminally ill people or people who are in sooo much pain and will never get better have the right to choose to end their lives.
I watched my boyfriend's mother slowly waste away and suffer for the last years of her life, the last few months she was constantly in and out of hospitals and constantly in pain and there was absolutely no hope of her getting better. It was like playing the waiting game for her to die because we all knew that's how it would end. People like that should have the right to choose to end their lives if that's what they want instead of being forced to suffer.
However, if you're just depressed and suicidal that's a whole different matter. I think it should only be legal if you're going to die soon anyway and you're suffering because I would rather somebody die while they're still somewhat healthy then have to suffer for the last of their life. it's no fun for them OR for their family to watch them suffer.
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I think for terminally ill people or people who are in sooo much pain and will never get better have the right to choose to end their lives.
I watched my boyfriend's mother slowly waste away and suffer for the last years of her life, the last few months she was constantly in and out of hospitals and constantly in pain and there was absolutely no hope of her getting better. It was like playing the waiting game for her to die because we all knew that's how it would end. People like that should have the right to choose to end their lives if that's what they want instead of being forced to suffer.
However, if you're just depressed and suicidal that's a whole different matter. I think it should only be legal if you're going to die soon anyway and you're suffering because I would rather somebody die while they're still somewhat healthy then have to suffer for the last of their life. it's no fun for them OR for their family to watch them suffer.
For people who are suffering so badly from depression, etc., their existence is suffering. Just because it isn't "as hard to watch" as people with cancer, etc. doesn't mean they are suffering any less.0
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