Machine Weights

justagirl2013

Can we discuss these?

Will these help any? Or am I wasting time?

I'm having issues with upper body strength (preacher's curl, bench press, chest press can only do 20 pounds and 1st set of 10 I feel extreme fatigue). and a bit hesitant to go pick up a 45 pound bar for fear of losing control of it. WE do have a safety squat rack at the gym. I checked it out a bit today ( was all alone at gym, that's a first!)

Or do I just need to move into stronglifts or NROWL?

lillebanon

I'm interested in seeing what is said in response here too, since machines and dumbells are the only options at my gym, no bar weights. Also my dad is giving me this gigantic home gym thing (I would never buy one, but since its free...). Its a Cross Bow Platinum.

k0nfyo0zed

The machines are a bit different than the free weights, because of how they are controlled. I've heard it described that machines give you pretty muscles and free weights give you functional muscles. Most people advocate the use of free weights over machines. I have no preference or opinion on this... but just so you know, I chest press 100lb on the machine... and can only bench press 75lb (45 bar, 15 on each end) because of the different muscles that are used to guide and stabilize the bar.

MoreBean13

I just posted something to a similar tune in another thread- so I apologize if this comes off as beating a dead horse.

Free weights are obviously not constrained to any particular motion and thus they require extra effort from your muscles to go through the motions of a particular exercise. So most heavy duty body builders will advocate using free weights- you get more for your buck AND they're adaptable to infinite different exercises. For these exact same reasons, if you are not an experienced weight lifter and/or you don't have someone to help you achieve proper form - it is easy to injure yourself with free weights.

The weight lifting machines are designed to target a certain set of muscles, and are generally designed with safety in mind- it would be difficult to drop the weight stack on yourself and if you set the machine correctly you probably won't over extend yourself while lifting. Not to say it's impossible, surely. I notice people jerking weights around and locking their joints and doing all kinds of dangerous stuff with both machines and free weights all the time.

I almost always weight lift alone, and for that reason (safety) I prefer using machines when machines are available, and free weights for the rest of the exercises. Its a matter of personal preference really. Don't discount the machine weights just because power lifters prefer free weights- they definitely have merits and you're not wasting your time!

justagirl2013

I try to be very safe on the machines, because I know that even though they are to be safer, nothing is foolproof! I saw a lady yesterday doing those hip abductor/adduction and she was going crazy. I mean 20 pounds and must have done hundreds of them. I don't quite understand what the gain would be from that? Other than maybe walking like a bow-legged cowboy?

This list below is the last time I did weights (Not from yesterday, I didn't snap pictures of the weights, but I know that a few are higher, ones with ** are higher than before)

Abdominal Crunch 50lb**
Bench (Chest) Press 20lb
Calf Raises 36lb**
Hip Abduction 60
Leg Curls 60**
Leg Extension 60**
Leg Press 110
Mid Row Chest Supported 40**
Overhead Press 20
Preacher Curl 20
Triceps Extension 30

I'm also wondering if I could basically use the same lifting mentality and apply it the machines? IE adding 5lb each time? 3 days per week?

I do not know why my upper body has become so "soft". My lower body has always been extremely muscular, but I had a decent upper body. I do 3 sets of 10 reps on each of the above exercises. The two chest exercises generally fatigue me by by the 8th rep of 1st set. 20lb is the lowest one can go, on the machine too. Maybe I am just doing this all wrong. I have some time to read today, so I'm reading the Stronglift stuff

lillebanon

Here is my last round at the gym. Should I increase the weight on the sets I was able to do 20 reps on until I can only do 10? Is that the basic rule of HEAVY vs NON-HEAVY?

Strength Training Sets Reps/Sets Weight/Set
Shoulder Press 3 20 50
Leg Extension 3 20 30
Leg Curls 3 15 70
Outer Thigh 3 20 60
Inner Thigh 3 20 100
Leg Press 3 20 60
Seated Biceps Curl 3 10 30
Rear Delt 3 10 20
Pec Dec Butterfly (Pectoral Fly) 3 15 20
Low Back 3 20 40
Torso - Left 3 20 50
Torso - Right 3 20 50
Lat Pulldown 3 10 50
Ab Machine Seated 3 40 55

4jenniferk

." Don't discount the machine weights just because power lifters prefer free weights- they definitely have merits and you're not wasting your time!"

Thank you MoreBean..... I'm a newbie lightweight and often feel as though I'm being judged because I don't use the free weights much. I'm sure once I get more comfortable or feel like I am no longer progressing I'll be happy to utilize the free weights more.

MoreBean13

Consider it a blessing that the testosterone-leaking dudes throwing weights around aren't hogging the machines you want to use.

gemiwing

Can we discuss these?

Will these help any? Or am I wasting time?

I'm having issues with upper body strength (preacher's curl, bench press, chest press can only do 20 pounds and 1st set of 10 I feel extreme fatigue). and a bit hesitant to go pick up a 45 pound bar for fear of losing control of it. WE do have a safety squat rack at the gym. I checked it out a bit today ( was all alone at gym, that's a first!)

Or do I just need to move into stronglifts or NROWL?

As a freeweight user- I can tell you if you've started with free weights and aren't getting injured, stick with them. You're not only developing main muscles but you are strengthening ligaments and 'helper' muscles as well. You are also developing a better CNS relay response than you will with machines.

that aside- since I don't see that as your real question-

You're not seeing improvement in your upper body strength and you're feeling unbalanced along with a helping of frustration, yes?

So spill it- what's your routine? How often are you doing it? What's your caloric deficit and how much weight are you trying to lose? When was the last time you increased your weights?

Let's figure out the whole picture before changing a routine that might end up working for you.

justagirl2013

Can we discuss these?

Will these help any? Or am I wasting time?

I'm having issues with upper body strength (preacher's curl, bench press, chest press can only do 20 pounds and 1st set of 10 I feel extreme fatigue). and a bit hesitant to go pick up a 45 pound bar for fear of losing control of it. WE do have a safety squat rack at the gym. I checked it out a bit today ( was all alone at gym, that's a first!)

Or do I just need to move into stronglifts or NROWL?

As a freeweight user- I can tell you if you've started with free weights and aren't getting injured, stick with them. You're not only developing main muscles but you are strengthening ligaments and 'helper' muscles as well. You are also developing a better CNS relay response than you will with machines.

that aside- since I don't see that as your real question-

You're not seeing improvement in your upper body strength and you're feeling unbalanced along with a helping of frustration, yes?

So spill it- what's your routine? How often are you doing it? What's your caloric deficit and how much weight are you trying to lose? When was the last time you increased your weights?

Let's figure out the whole picture before changing a routine that might end up working for you.

I've probably used free weights a total of 3 minutes my whole life. 1) When someone showed me how to use the plan squat rack, 2) when I picked up a plate someone left by one of the machines, LOL. Okay, so that's not something to laugh at, it's pathetic!

Yes, I'm not seeing any changes in upper body. In fact, the measurements I posted I had to lower for any that involved upper body (Except chest row). Lower body I definitely see more calf definition (but running helped that IMO), and my overall legs are fat but there is muscle under that fat just waiting to say hi!

I don't have a set routine with weights or really the gym. I do 3 nights of C25k followed by 20 minutes on the elliptical (@ Level 3/4). Two nights I just walk the treadmill for 30 min and do 20 min elliptical. I also horseback ride once per week for about an hour. I was doing weights twice a week, but I got sick and took almost 3 weeks off from gym due to Dr's orders. Since then I've only done weights 3 times.

My diary is open if you want to see it? I am at 205.4 right now (just started eating 2,320 cals vs 1800 (and not even all of them). I want to weigh under 150. More like 140 if I could. I just increased weights Sunday, but I think I really need to just start a complete fresh from scratch approach honestly. As far as deficit? My BMR is 1700 and I eat at 20% cut, so I think I am -500 cals per day?

I hope I answered all the questions. Let me know if I missed something.

justagirl2013

Consider it a blessing that the testosterone-leaking dudes throwing weights around aren't hogging the machines you want to use.

True!

gemiwing

You've got a lot going on there- remember we lose weight in the kitchen and not in the gym. Hardest thing to get through my head but it's the truth. So you're working out five days a week or more and cardio is a big part- well... honestly I'd take some cardio out and replace it with weight training.

You're not going to up your weight when your body is busy recovering from cardio all the time. It's just not going to really happen. Now if you don't care about muscles and want to be a long distance elite runner- then your goals will be different. If you're going for overall tone, general fitness then it's probably time to cut down on the cardio and introduce some real weight lifting.

I hope Kiki will chime in because I absolutely bow to her superior knowledge here.

justagirl2013

You've got a lot going on there- remember we lose weight in the kitchen and not in the gym. Hardest thing to get through my head but it's the truth. So you're working out five days a week or more and cardio is a big part- well... honestly I'd take some cardio out and replace it with weight training.

You're not going to up your weight when your body is busy recovering from cardio all the time. It's just not going to really happen. Now if you don't care about muscles and want to be a long distance elite runner- then your goals will be different. If you're going for overall tone, general fitness then it's probably time to cut down on the cardio and introduce some real weight lifting.

I hope Kiki will chime in because I absolutely bow to her superior knowledge here.

I do eat a lot different/healthier since I started MFP. I'm not overly impressed with my results, but there are some days that I slacked also...Those count against me.

I'll remove cardio, but I'd like to keep the c25k. I see many here that do no cardio at all? I really want to run a 5k and at least a half. I'm not sure I'd ever have the fitness to make it to a full, so for now, I will still with a half as my goal. I then see posts where people say that running as a heavier person is not good for bones and joints, which I agree with.

I started cardio to help me lose weight, but I also believed in a lot of myths when I started too Honestly, I don't know what in sam's name I am doing. I want to be fit, I want to walk without losing my breath, I want to have muscles and obviously I want to lose weight. I'm willing to do what I need to do to obtain that goal

Which screen name is Kiki? Maybe I can send her a message?

gemiwing

Kiki is Proverbs (Prvrbs).

Sounds like you want to run a 5k but beyond that don't really have a goal or a road map, correct? I don't think you need to cut all cardio at all- that's silly when you want to run a 5k. Best training for running- is to run I'm talking about pulling back the eliptical and replacing three days out of your week with weight lifting. Might even go lower if your goal is the 5k, cut lifting to two days a week so you have lots of recovery time.

justagirl2013

I just started re-training for the 5k, it's in November, so I have plenty of time to train.

But nope, other than the fact I'd like to run a half-marathon by the end of next year (2013) no plans really. When I joined, my plan was to lose weight. I wanted to lose 80 pounds. I figured 1.5 pounds per week, and in a year I'd be able to work on "toning" or whatever. Now, I've learned that I need to work on that while I'm losing weight.

Honestly, I'm so lost!

MoreBean13

It's always been my experience that marathon training and weight loss don't actually work together. It's counter-intuitive, I know, but to be able to perform the training you can't be at much of a calorie deficit. However, up until now I believed weight loss should be done at 1200 cal/day, so I'm not sure how the training would go with this eat-more approach. Probably your carbs would still have to be higher than 40%, and though some weight training fits in to a training schedule, your weight training would have to be cut back to get in all the runs, I think. Even upper body- running tires out your upper body way more than you would ever think and often my arms are the most sore after long runs. (They're also the weakest though, so there's that...) Most training schedules just don't allow for the rest time you need with heavy lifting, so you would pretty quickly burn out doing both.

My point in all this rambling is that it might be better to get yourself to a comfortable maintenance place before starting marathon training- or at least mentally prepare yourself to put weight loss on the back burner.

5Ks however are a totally different story. I hear C25K is awesome and I would encourage you to do as many as you want to. Once you get your endurance to that point you can do a 5K every week. They're a blast and they don't require 12 weeks of training.

justagirl2013

I had not planned on running a half marathon until fall 2013. So if training has to be on back burner, that is fine with me. I really want to do the 5k in November, but could care less if I stop running after that. I'd rather not, but I have the rest of my life to run a marathon, I want to enjoy the rest of my life fit before I run a marathon, if that makes sense.

I did some thinking and reading, and I do believe that I am no longer going to do the elliptical/treadmill combo those additional 2 days. I may still walk the 2 miles with my DD and the dogs, but I am going to do the following:

M: c25k
T: strength
W:c25k
T: strength
F: c25k
S: Off
SU: strength

This seems to be the best combination for me. Tuesdays is generally the day I ride also, and I can't change that unfortunately.

Thank you everyone for the advice, and enlightenment. I'm really grateful

31prvrbs

Wow, a lot going on in this baby. I'll just chime in w/a few thoughts.

Personally, I'm a free weight user, and would be lost without them. Machines may have their place, but they will never replace the free weights for me. I'll often have clients use a machine, first, to get a specific move down, and understand how the move works, but ultimately, we are taking it to the iron. As was mentioned, the machines can be used for "shaping" muscles a bit, but I prefer to "build" those muscle first with the free weights (can't shape what isn't there, right?).

I would suggest a person use machines as a "supplement", not the actual "meal". It should compliment the strength training done on the "other" side of the gym. If a person relies solely on machines, they are setting themselves up for a myriad of other issues down the road, like imbalances, leading to serious injuries, just to name a few. The reason is that machines do the "balance" work for you, instead of allowing your body to learn how to stabilize correctly during that move. Your body needs to learn how to do the entire motion properly, without support. Free weights are an AMAZING tool, don't shy away from them, and reject the dramatic changes that they're willing to take you through

As for the excessive cardio that was touched upon...yes, yes, and yes. PLEASE cut back on the cardio a bit. Too much can be so counter-intuitive to your weight loss goals. Marathon + trying to build muscle = hamster on wheel :huh:

If I could get just a few ladies to *really* hear me on that one, we'd be (literally) I'd be outta business :laugh:


~Kiki

justagirl2013

Thank you Kiki for your response!

I'll definitely give up the extra cardio. Would it harm to do a light walk with the dogs? My daughter really enjoys it, and I want to instill healthy values for her. It's a dirt/gravel road that's pretty hilly, and we walk about 2 miles. We can cut the distance and maybe lower speed.

I'm also going to try to find time to do some of the weight exercises with free weights. I think I will pick a day when no one is there hah! I'm also going to go in and see if the trainer can give me a brief lesson on proper techniques.

31prvrbs

No need to give up the dog walks. It's mainly the heavy stuff that will trend toward over-training, but a casual, low intensity, walk w/the pups/kids/significant other, will not hinder your progress. We're talking about pounding the pavement/treadmill for miles & miles seeking crazy high cal burns...

I'd def recommend hiring a trainer, at least for a few sessions, so that you can gain confidence in the free weights section, and learn how to execute the moves properly, to prevent injury.

justagirl2013

Unfortunately there is not a trainer at my gym The owner said he can show me what to do, but he is not a trainer. There is no other gym. I'm going to watch some youtube, and read a lot and have this guy show me once. I've decided to go with stronglift, as the NROLFW kind of scare me with some of the other moves...

Now, what about my calories? Will they stay the same since I am removing some cardio?

I'm going to try to get a HRM this weekend I hope...

31prvrbs

If you're just swapping out cardio for weights, but still putting in the same amount of workout time each week, then just keep it where it is. Strength training requires a decent amount of food to build muscle, so adding it in, would def still require some cals...

gemiwing

*desperately relieved for Kiki's wealth of knowledge and helpfulness*

I do have something to relieve your mind about- Stronglifts won't post up the huge burns you're used to with cardio but I can guarantee you that you will need the same amount of cals for the burn. Unless you're overweight like I am (100+lbs to lose) then you're going to have to eat more for the program to work at all. You'll never increase your weights if you're eating at a huge cal deficit- you've got to fuel this workout and fuel it GOOD.

If you skimp- your weights will def stall and you won't progress further. lol Not to scare you but to reassure you- there's a long tail burn that comes with lifting weights and you'll still need that extra food. So if you do your TDEE and are shocked that you have to eat just as much (and sometimes more) than you did when you were mainly cardio- just remember the long tail of weight lifting is at work.

rebekahgo

No need to give up the dog walks. It's mainly the heavy stuff that will trend toward over-training, but a casual, low intensity, walk w/the pups/kids/significant other, will not hinder your progress. We're talking about pounding the pavement/treadmill for miles & miles seeking crazy high cal burns...

I'd def recommend hiring a trainer, at least for a few sessions, so that you can gain confidence in the free weights section, and learn how to execute the moves properly, to prevent injury.

so, kiki....how do you feel about some quickie HIIT on non-lift days? say 20-30 minutes tops on elliptical or running or whatever? counterproductive? waste of time? not super major calorie burn, just a brief workout. thoughts?

31prvrbs

so, kiki....how do you feel about some quickie HIIT on non-lift days? say 20-30 minutes tops on elliptical or running or whatever? counterproductive? waste of time? not super major calorie burn, just a brief workout. thoughts?

I think it's fine. I'm all about the quickie cardio's & HIITs, lol. I get in and I get out. There's still a rest day figured in there, somewhere, right? The only thing to watch for would be to do a leg day, book-ended by two HIITs, not that it couldn't be done, lol, but you may just feel like your jeans are out to strangle you by suffocation, lol...

Love me some HIIT

justagirl2013

I am overweight, I have 65 pounds to go until I meet my goal.I'm going to keep my 2300 cals and see how that works. Thanks so much ladies

rebekahgo

so, kiki....how do you feel about some quickie HIIT on non-lift days? say 20-30 minutes tops on elliptical or running or whatever? counterproductive? waste of time? not super major calorie burn, just a brief workout. thoughts?

I think it's fine. I'm all about the quickie cardio's & HIITs, lol. I get in and I get out. There's still a rest day figured in there, somewhere, right? The only thing to watch for would be to do a leg day, book-ended by two HIITs, not that it couldn't be done, lol, but you may just feel like your jeans are out to strangle you by suffocation, lol...

Love me some HIIT

Thanks, Kiki!!

Sadly, all of my days are rest days at the moment.
But I'm about to get my butt back in action. Gonna go with a NROLFW/HIIT combo.

Appreciate the input!!

Cclancaster

Here is my last round at the gym. Should I increase the weight on the sets I was able to do 20 reps on until I can only do 10? Is that the basic rule of HEAVY vs NON-HEAVY?

Yes you want to do less reps and heavier weights so if you can do 3 sets of 20 reps you aren't lifting heavy enough. Granted this is my opinion and what I have been taught.

Cclancaster

Wow, a lot going on in this baby. I'll just chime in w/a few thoughts.

Personally, I'm a free weight user, and would be lost without them. Machines may have their place, but they will never replace the free weights for me. I'll often have clients use a machine, first, to get a specific move down, and understand how the move works, but ultimately, we are taking it to the iron. As was mentioned, the machines can be used for "shaping" muscles a bit, but I prefer to "build" those muscle first with the free weights (can't shape what isn't there, right?).

I would suggest a person use machines as a "supplement", not the actual "meal". It should compliment the strength training done on the "other" side of the gym. If a person relies solely on machines, they are setting themselves up for a myriad of other issues down the road, like imbalances, leading to serious injuries, just to name a few. The reason is that machines do the "balance" work for you, instead of allowing your body to learn how to stabilize correctly during that move. Your body needs to learn how to do the entire motion properly, without support. Free weights are an AMAZING tool, don't shy away from them, and reject the dramatic changes that they're willing to take you through

As for the excessive cardio that was touched upon...yes, yes, and yes. PLEASE cut back on the cardio a bit. Too much can be so counter-intuitive to your weight loss goals. Marathon + trying to build muscle = hamster on wheel :huh:

If I could get just a few ladies to *really* hear me on that one, we'd be (literally) I'd be outta business :laugh:


~Kiki

Out of curiosity I am doing Chalean Extreme which is a 5 day a week workout program 3 days are strength training where you go heavy enough to fatigue by the 12th rep it is about 45 minutes I love it. the other 2 days are pretty intense cardio days for about 45 minutes is this okay or should I really think about cutting out that little amount of cardio?

31prvrbs

Out of curiosity I am doing Chalean Extreme which is a 5 day a week workout program 3 days are strength training where you go heavy enough to fatigue by the 12th rep it is about 45 minutes I love it. the other 2 days are pretty intense cardio days for about 45 minutes is this okay or should I really think about cutting out that little amount of cardio?

2 days @45 min is fine

Good luck w/CLX! I'd love to see your results when you finish

31prvrbs

Here is my last round at the gym. Should I increase the weight on the sets I was able to do 20 reps on until I can only do 10? Is that the basic rule of HEAVY vs NON-HEAVY?

Yes you want to do less reps and heavier weights so if you can do 3 sets of 20 reps you aren't lifting heavy enough. Granted this is my opinion and what I have been taught.

Def increase your weight if you can do that many. You will not build muscle in the that high of a rep range (if that's your goal), that would be endurance work. Try to get to the 8-12 range. When you progress past 12 for an extended period of time, then up the weights again....