Is Homosexuality a Choice?

13

Replies

  • Gilbrod
    Gilbrod Posts: 1,216 Member
    The question at hand is if it's choice. I guess in the end, no one can prove anything otherwise.

    The vast majority of gay people I have met say it isn't a choice they made, it's just a part of who they are, who they have always been.

    Why don't we just take their word for it? Why do we need "proof"?

    You believe me when I tell you Jameson is my favorite whiskey, right? Even if the thought of drinking room temperature whiskey is repellent to you? You don't need to know if it is my Irish heritage causing me to be predisposed to whiskey loving, or just my own personal taste preference, right?

    So born or chosen, doesn't really matter much, imho. I do think it's born, because I work with lots of little kids, and I have seen enough to believe that for myself. But even if it was 100% chosen, (just like religion is), that would still not be a good enough reason to treat people badly or curtail their rights.

    Only because people were asking me to prove that there was a choice. According to some people, opinions don't matter which is how I was drawn into this debate. So being that I believe people can live however they want, and it doesn't bother me, the question at hand was if it's a choice or not. Not if it's right or wrong. If you look at my pasts posts, I have expressed that I am fine with their lifestyle. I have never said it was a negative. I say they need to be as miserable like the rest of us and pay out the wazoo if they want a divorce.

    Treetop57:
    The US has done lots of funny things in the "dark ages." We used to treat alzhimers (sp?) with cocaine. Just saying, lots of cooky things back then.
  • castadiva
    castadiva Posts: 2,016 Member
    SO - straight folks who believe it's a choice. Can you describe how you "Chose" to be hetero? The day you weighed your options and made a rational decision?
    <<lots'a snippage>>
    Glad you asked. I knew from the age of 8 after a boy named Javier grabbed my winky and kissed me. I didn't punch him or push him away, but I knew I didn't like it. I never played with him after that. Also when I got a boner from seeing Ms. Capolla stretch for gym class. I think it's why I have a thing for brunettes with light eyes.
    That may have been a day that you became aware that you did like girls and did not like boys. It's not the day you made a 'choice'.

    And it's quite a good example, in fact, that little Javier, aged 8, knew instinctively that he was attracted to other boys. I'm guessing as an 8-year-old, he wasn't 'choosing' that...

    My two cents, based on a little scientific knowledge, and a LOT of homosexual friends and colleagues' shared experiences, is that for the vast majority, sexual orientation is not a conscious choice. The rare exception, I would say, is among the genuinely bisexual, who sometimes choose to focus on one or other gender, to the exclusion of their attraction to the other half of the population, whether for reasons of social pressure or simply because their life-partner is of one gender rather than the other.

    My personal hypothesis is that sexual orientation is primarily the product of variations in biochemistry, and the effects that has on the brain (I think that's the general area of the research you mention, Lucky?). There is undoubtedly a contribution from someone's genetic makeup in terms of how that affects their personal biochemistry (minor point on genetics - at the most basic level, every parent has two possible chromosomes per trait to give to offspring. These may be similar or highly varied, depending on the chromosomes that person inherited from their own parents. It does not follow that, genetically, two gay parents are only capable of creating gay children.).

    Environment may lead to the suppression or the embracing of inherent characteristics, but is highly unlikely to effect a concrete change to predispositions. If you want to put it in those terms, some of us are predisposed, through biochemistry and genetics, to be fatter than others. Our environment may lead us to endeavour to suppress (diet, exercise) that tendency, or embrace it (some Eastern cultures positively embrace a generosity of flesh). What our environment cannot do is change our inherent tendency - for some it will always be harder to achieve and maintain slenderness than for others.

    Edited for loooooong paragraphs!
  • summertime_girl
    summertime_girl Posts: 3,945 Member
    I've heard some recent talk about having found a structural difference in the brains of gays? Anybody know what I'm talking about?

    I believe that study is older, from the early 90s (at least that was when it was first discovered).

    "Researchers know that many areas of the brain have been reported to have gender differences, including differences between gay individuals and straight individuals. Some of the regions include the hypothalamus, This portion of the brain is significantly smaller in the brains of homosexual men than in those of heterosexual men.. The anterior hypothalamus contains a section called the mPOA. The mPOA is critical for the expression of sexual behavior in male animals and receives indirect input from virtually every sensory modality."

    From the following study: Differential brain activation in exclusively homosexual and heterosexual men produced by the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, fluoxetineD

    Leann H. Kinnunena,*, Howard Moltzb, John Metzc,e, Malcolm Cooperd

    Committee on Human Development, University of Chicago, 5848 S. University Avenue, Chicago, IL 60637, United States
  • Windchild
    Windchild Posts: 129 Member
    My OPINION, and belief, is simply this: To me, it's not a choice.

    This is based off of the people, both straight, gay, bisexual, AND (to add fuel to this fire), asexual, that I have met and spoken with. Some of whom are my friends, and some are merely acquaintances, and some are still complete strangers who felt the need to talk to SOMEONE and I just happened to be there and was a good, nonjudgmental listener. I can't base my thoughts on people that I don't know or haven't met.

    It is also based off of my own experiences. I have a very good female friend who is bisexual. I love the tar out of her and would do ALMOST anything for her. Now, that being said. She has expressed attraction to me. It wasn't something that I had ever considered before. I have never been attracted to females. But when she told me that, I actually sat down and examined my sexuality and attractions. You know what I decided? That there is no way in h*** I could EVER do those kinds of things with another woman. Women just don't do anything for me, and there was no way that I could choose to be with one, even a woman that I love like my previously mentioned friend.

    So, for what it's worth, if I couldn't choose to be gay, I don't think it's a choice. Except for bisexuals, but then, they're not really gay as their attracted is to both, so...

    My other thought on this is: It's nobody's business what other people are doing with their privates.
  • Gilbrod
    Gilbrod Posts: 1,216 Member
    I've heard some recent talk about having found a structural difference in the brains of gays? Anybody know what I'm talking about?

    I believe that study is older, from the early 90s (at least that was when it was first discovered).

    "Researchers know that many areas of the brain have been reported to have gender differences, including differences between gay individuals and straight individuals. Some of the regions include the hypothalamus, This portion of the brain is significantly smaller in the brains of homosexual men than in those of heterosexual men.. The anterior hypothalamus contains a section called the mPOA. The mPOA is critical for the expression of sexual behavior in male animals and receives indirect input from virtually every sensory modality."

    From the following study: Differential brain activation in exclusively homosexual and heterosexual men produced by the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, fluoxetineD

    Leann H. Kinnunena,*, Howard Moltzb, John Metzc,e, Malcolm Cooperd

    Committee on Human Development, University of Chicago, 5848 S. University Avenue, Chicago, IL 60637, United States

    I know that study. But it was deemed inconclusive after it couldn't be replicated.

    Evan S. Balaban, a neurobiologist at the Neurosciences Institute in San Diego, noted that

    the search for the biological underpinnings of complex human traits has a sorry history of late. In recent years, researchers and the media have proclaimed the “discovery” of genes linked to alcoholism and mental illness as well as to homosexuality. None of the claims...has been confirmed (as quoted in Horgan, 1995).

    Charles Mann agreed, stating: “Time and time again, scientists have claimed that particular genes or chromosomal regions are associated with behavioral traits, only to withdraw their findings when they were not replicated” (1994, 264:1687). It appears that the gay gene will be added to this category of unreplicated claims.


    Castadiva...Javier is not gay. He is, believe it or not, a born again christian (to my disbelief) with a hot wife and 3 kids. I have yet to bring up the subject with him. Facebook is funny. People find you even though it's been years since you spoken a single word.

    I agree. It's no one's business. And it's not a negative thing. But we have all decided to add our two cents, making it our business. Wouldn't you agree?
  • castadiva
    castadiva Posts: 2,016 Member

    Castadiva...Javier is not gay. He is, believe it or not, a born again christian (to my disbelief) with a hot wife and 3 kids. I have yet to bring up the subject with him. Facebook is funny. People find you even though it's been years since you spoken a single word.

    I see... which leads us to a rather interesting question, very pertinent to this discussion. Javier, aged 8, before he is likely to have understood much of the social constructs of 'appropriate' sexual behaviour in his community, exhibited behaviour that suggests he is homosexual. As an adult, and a member of a religious group that believes that homosexuality is a sin, Javier exhibits behaviour in line with a heterosexual 'norm'. It's possible, of course, that Javier is bisexual. Nonetheless, the question can be asked: which behaviour is inherent/instinctive, and which is learned/'chosen'?
  • Gilbrod
    Gilbrod Posts: 1,216 Member

    Castadiva...Javier is not gay. He is, believe it or not, a born again christian (to my disbelief) with a hot wife and 3 kids. I have yet to bring up the subject with him. Facebook is funny. People find you even though it's been years since you spoken a single word.

    I see... which leads us to a rather interesting question, very pertinent to this discussion. Javier, aged 8, before he is likely to have understood much of the social constructs of 'appropriate' sexual behaviour in his community, exhibited behaviour that suggests he is homosexual. As an adult, and a member of a religious group that believes that homosexuality is a sin, Javier exhibits behaviour in line with a heterosexual 'norm'. It's possible, of course, that Javier is bisexual. Nonetheless, the question can be asked: which behaviour is inherent/instinctive, and which is learned/'chosen'?
    Interesting question. I would love to know the answer. But, #1, none of my business. #2, his faith will involve spiritual talk that will not give me any scientific back up to his choice/instinct, if I ever muster the guts to ask. Nothing wrong with Christianity either, but since it's faith based, that's what they will base their life on. The bible.
  • castadiva
    castadiva Posts: 2,016 Member

    Castadiva...Javier is not gay. He is, believe it or not, a born again christian (to my disbelief) with a hot wife and 3 kids. I have yet to bring up the subject with him. Facebook is funny. People find you even though it's been years since you spoken a single word.

    I see... which leads us to a rather interesting question, very pertinent to this discussion. Javier, aged 8, before he is likely to have understood much of the social constructs of 'appropriate' sexual behaviour in his community, exhibited behaviour that suggests he is homosexual. As an adult, and a member of a religious group that believes that homosexuality is a sin, Javier exhibits behaviour in line with a heterosexual 'norm'. It's possible, of course, that Javier is bisexual. Nonetheless, the question can be asked: which behaviour is inherent/instinctive, and which is learned/'chosen'?
    Interesting question. I would love to know the answer. But, #1, none of my business. #2, his faith will involve spiritual talk that will not give me any scientific back up to his choice/instinct, if I ever muster the guts to ask. Nothing wrong with Christianity either, but since it's faith based, that's what they will base their life on. The bible.

    I think you may have missed the point of this forum. Most (all?) of us here would agree that someone's sexual orientation in the specific is no-one's business but their own, no matter how much certain organisations would like to have dictatorial powers in that regard. Nonetheless, the general question of choice or inherent predisposition can be argued and debated until the cows come home, because it is an interesting question. I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to convey with your second point - perhaps you could elaborate on that - but if you want to continue the debate, what do you think the answer to my question is, and why?
  • Italian_Buju
    Italian_Buju Posts: 8,030 Member
    Being gay is not a choice. Every time this comes up, I am always shocked that there are still people out in the world that think that. Who would choose to be something that would make their life path more difficult?

    Homosexuality is wide spread in the animal kingdom. Which means, that it is naturally occurring in nature. We are also animals, when you get right down to it. A penguin, would not have the mental capacity to 'choose' to be homosexual, in the same token, I do not believe that the fellow heterosexual penguins would have the capacity to discriminate against ones that are different. Over 1500 species of animals have homosexuals in their species....humans are no different. As humans, we do not choose to be heterosexual, just as we do not choose to be homosexual. What we do choose, sadly, is to discriminate against those that are different from ourselves.

    I read most of this post, but not all, and not in detail, but I did see someone post about why homosexuals do not give birth to other homosexuals. It is not a dominate trait like black skin, or brown eyes. But it does run in families. If you are homosexual, the chances of someone else in your family being homosexual, increases quite a bit. Among siblings, if you are homosexual, the chances of another sibling being homosexual increases by about 10%. In the case of twins, its more like 50%. If you are gay, and you look around, it is HIGHLY likely, that someone else in your direct family is gay, and aunt, parent, even cousin.

    There are many other studies that show that being gay is not a choice. For example, there has been many studies that show that woman who are carrying male babies, that have VERY stressful pregnancies, are more likely to have a homosexual son. The reasoning, in theory, is that when you are highly stressed, you burn a lot of hormones, mainly testosterone. Being stressed here and there like normal would not do it, but if you are very stressed out your whole pregnancy, the male child has a deficiency in testosterone and this can affect his sexual orientation.

    Here is another one: in the late 60's and early to mid 70's, a lot of drugs they used to treat diabetics were laced with testosterone. And, a lot of woman, taking these drugs, had babies. The rate of girl children born to these woman being lesbian, is much higher than the general population. Again, that cannot all be by chance.

    Also, how many of us have seen a child, a very young child, behaving in such a way that you could just tell someone was off. There is no way that a four year old boy that prefers to play barbies and dress up and hang out with girls, is choosing to be homosexual, that is just silly.

    I could go on, but will save it for now, as I must get ready to head out.....
  • EvanKeel
    EvanKeel Posts: 1,903 Member
    On the topic of Javier, while I believe I knew was different when I was younger--had I the understanding and vocabulary I probably would have used the word gay--I don't think we can ascribe orientation to children based on their behavior. Well, mostly. Sometimes I see a little queerling and I just know. My internal response is something like "Awww, sweetie, tone it down a notch.You'll wear yourself out. You have plenty of years to let your freak flag fly."

    Most of the time, however, I think kids just like to play and act, and I don't necessarily think it has anything to with what we would call sexual orientation in adults.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    Additionally, I tend to think choice isn't involved much because if you're making a choice to change your orientation, it seems like there's a lot more going on there than just changing your orientation. I mean, if you suddenly find yourself attracted to someone from a gender that you don't usually respond to in that way (emotionally and physically), then you haven't made a choice; it just happened.

    If you go through a process where you're weighing the options and you decide "Nope, I'm going to be [heterosexual/homosexual] instead now." The question is why? What else is happening in your life? I have known people who have tried to change and genuinely wanted to make a choice, but it was because something else was wrong. They hated themselves, or felt as if someone they loved hated them, or they suffered from various forms of depression. Being gay wasn't the problem. All these other issues were the problem, "being gay" just got stuck with the check and seemed like the easiest fix for them. I haven't met one person for whom it worked out long term. It's not to say that it doesn't happen, but I think the circumstances for that kind of lasting change of identity made by choice are pretty darn rare.

    My own theory ties into what I previously said earlier about the black and white arguments. I feel that groups such as the religious considered it a choice and a sin, therefore harmful and bad. I think that the reaction by the gay community and the progressives was to argue from the other side of the spectrum that none of it was a choice and it wall all chemical or genetic or what have yout. And while I truly do believe, as stated earlier, that there are a section of the population that is completely, genetically gay, there is a larger segment of the population that could in theory exhibit gay behavior for the sheer pleasure of it, but remain totally hetero to meet societal, religous, and moral standards. So in the end, for some people, it might be a choice because their urges are vastly reduced compared to the 100% homosexual for nothing other than what seems to be peer pressure on a grand scale.

    I just think you have to differentiate between one's inherent nature and some occasional or transient behavior they may engage in. Homosexuality is not defined by sexual acts. As I believe I have stated before, my daughter attended an all-girls college that supported, if not outright celebrated, lebianism. As she described it, there were plenty of girls who experimented with different lifestyle choices, some just for fun, some to fit in with a particular group. Those types of people are not "gay".

    And IMO, that's one thing that muddies the waters in these discussions. Because there are people like the ones described above, or others who have psychological or emotional issues that will result in them being confused about their sexuality. I suspect that 95% of those who claim they have "cured their gay" fall into this category (i.e. they were not really gay to begin with).

    And the other 5% are lying -- they haven't changed at all.

    Since we had this discussion recently, I (vaguely) remember some of the reading I did for it (yes, I often do homework before coming to class). The gist of it seemed like there was a difference between "genetic gay" and "developmental gay" (and by developmental, I mean before birth). Modern research was downgrading the incidence of the former and focusing more on the latter. The end result was still the same--people are born with their orientation--it was a difference of exactly when the development occurred.

    And, as most have said, whether it is or isn't is irrelevant, IMO. Even if it were completely a personal choice, that would not make any difference, since their is nothing inherently wrong with it.
  • castadiva
    castadiva Posts: 2,016 Member
    On the topic of Javier, while I believe I knew was different when I was younger--had I the understanding and vocabulary I probably would have used the word gay--I don't think we can ascribe orientation to children based on their behavior. Well, mostly. Sometimes I see a little queerling and I just know. My internal response is something like "Awww, sweetie, tone it down a notch.You'll wear yourself out. You have plenty of years to let your freak flag fly."

    Most of the time, however, I think kids just like to play and act, and I don't necessarily think it has anything to with what we would call sexual orientation in adults.

    I'm not so sure. Most kids are aware of adult sexual behaviour quite early on - kissing, physical contact etc - and often attempt to emulate it with their peers at very young ages. What they tend not to be aware of quite so early are the finer points of sexual politics and the mores of their particular community in that regard, so their 'choices' of recipient tend to be less affected by that conditioning. I know it's uncomfortable to think of kids as having pre-pubertal sexual identity, but I wonder if their earliest actions in emulating the adults around them are perhaps the 'purest' expression of that identity, before they're aware of what is and isn't approved of in their environment.

    I don't really know enough about child psychology in this regard to speak with any authority, but it's an interesting thought from a purely intellectual perspective. I don't recall having any interest in choosing my female peers to emulate adult behaviour with as a child, but I do recall several pre-school playground 'weddings' and at least two or three pre-pubertal crushes, exclusively on males. Is that unconscious exclusivity an indicator of my adult, heterosexual female identity? I don't know, but given my thoughts on the biochemical nature of sexual orientation, I suspect it may have been. I can't quite believe, given the number of people I have heard say they knew they were 'different' very early on, that sexual identity only emerges at puberty, albeit that it is (hopefully!) subconscious before then.

    BTW, 'queerling' is cute - made me smile!
  • treetop57
    treetop57 Posts: 1,578 Member
    Javier definitely proves (a) homosexuality is not a choice, (b) heterosexuality is a choice, and (c) so is religion. :wink:
  • summertime_girl
    summertime_girl Posts: 3,945 Member
    Javier definitely proves (a) homosexuality is not a choice, (b) heterosexuality is a choice, and (c) so is religion. :wink:

    Yup!

    I recently read a blog by a gay Mormon man. He "confessed" to his future wife that he was gay prior to their marriage, but was committed to a heterosexual relationship. They have been married for 10 years or so, and have several kids. But he is attracted to men. He chooses a hetero relationship to conform to religious expectations.
  • Espressocycle
    Espressocycle Posts: 2,245 Member
    If homosexuality was a choice, I would choose to be gay. Gay men are far less likely to hear the words "not tonight, honey."
    But alas, it is not a choice. I have known I was straight since pre-school when I had my first crush on an older woman (she was 5, I was 3 - it never could have worked). I wish I could stop being so attracted to women - it's hard not to stare at every beautiful one who walks by - which to me is most women between 18 and 40. I thought about calling one of those gay conversion camps, but it turns out they only convert gay people straight and it doesn't even work. Oh well.
  • KimmyEB
    KimmyEB Posts: 1,208 Member
    (to add fuel to this fire), asexual

    I have to admit, even though I have a close family member who says they are asexual, I don't understand it completely. I visited the Asexual Visibility and Education's website that he gave me to understand it better, and it just confused me more. An asexual person does not experience sexual desire, but many still have sex. Whaaaaa? It almost seems to be contradictory. I always assumed a true asexual person flat-out does not have sex, and would abstain from sex permanently, I suppose. It's none of my business obviously, but it confused the hell out of me upon reading about it.
  • castadiva
    castadiva Posts: 2,016 Member
    If homosexuality was a choice, I would choose to be gay. Gay men are far less likely to hear the words "not tonight, honey."
    But alas, it is not a choice. I have known I was straight since pre-school when I had my first crush on an older woman (she was 5, I was 3 - it never could have worked). I wish I could stop being so attracted to women - it's hard not to stare at every beautiful one who walks by - which to me is most women between 18 and 40. I thought about calling one of those gay conversion camps, but it turns out they only convert gay people straight and it doesn't even work. Oh well.

    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Thanks for this - it sent me on my way for the weekend with a good laugh! Have fun, everyone, and see you on Monday!
  • SwannySez
    SwannySez Posts: 5,860 Member
    Sometimes I see a little queerling and I just know. My internal response is something like "Awww, sweetie, tone it down a notch.You'll wear yourself out. You have plenty of years to let your freak flag fly."
    I just peed myself a little. Just a little.
  • Gilbrod
    Gilbrod Posts: 1,216 Member
    Well, to each his or her own. I thank everyone for keeping it civil here. If this topic is still a hot button, I will be more than happy to continue with it at a later time. Meanwhile, I am off to go camping for a week. The only tech I will have is my cell. I doubt I will have any signal where I am going. But seriously, I have seen some interesting thoughts and theories. Send me a friend invite if you'd like some weight loss support. Unless I am not the type of person you want to be associated with, have an awesome week everyone.
  • Windchild
    Windchild Posts: 129 Member
    (to add fuel to this fire), asexual

    I have to admit, even though I have a close family member who says they are asexual, I don't understand it completely. I visited the Asexual Visibility and Education's website that he gave me to understand it better, and it just confused me more. An asexual person does not experience sexual desire, but many still have sex. Whaaaaa? It almost seems to be contradictory. I always assumed a true asexual person flat-out does not have sex, and would abstain from sex permanently, I suppose. It's none of my business obviously, but it confused the hell out of me upon reading about it.

    It is very confusing. *nods* I don't understand it 100% myself. The way a friend of mine explained that aspect is this: Even though they do not feel sexual desire for others their bodies are still physically capable of the act. Because humans are social creatures, they can still love and want to spend time, even want a lifelong companion, with someone without wanting to have sex with them. If they end up in a relationship with a person who is not asexual, then they can still have sex with that person, since the body is physically capable, they just might not get anything out of it,. They might enjoy that they can give their partner that pleasure though. *shrugs*
  • adrian_indy
    adrian_indy Posts: 1,444 Member
    Additionally, I tend to think choice isn't involved much because if you're making a choice to change your orientation, it seems like there's a lot more going on there than just changing your orientation. I mean, if you suddenly find yourself attracted to someone from a gender that you don't usually respond to in that way (emotionally and physically), then you haven't made a choice; it just happened.

    If you go through a process where you're weighing the options and you decide "Nope, I'm going to be [heterosexual/homosexual] instead now." The question is why? What else is happening in your life? I have known people who have tried to change and genuinely wanted to make a choice, but it was because something else was wrong. They hated themselves, or felt as if someone they loved hated them, or they suffered from various forms of depression. Being gay wasn't the problem. All these other issues were the problem, "being gay" just got stuck with the check and seemed like the easiest fix for them. I haven't met one person for whom it worked out long term. It's not to say that it doesn't happen, but I think the circumstances for that kind of lasting change of identity made by choice are pretty darn rare.

    My own theory ties into what I previously said earlier about the black and white arguments. I feel that groups such as the religious considered it a choice and a sin, therefore harmful and bad. I think that the reaction by the gay community and the progressives was to argue from the other side of the spectrum that none of it was a choice and it wall all chemical or genetic or what have yout. And while I truly do believe, as stated earlier, that there are a section of the population that is completely, genetically gay, there is a larger segment of the population that could in theory exhibit gay behavior for the sheer pleasure of it, but remain totally hetero to meet societal, religous, and moral standards. So in the end, for some people, it might be a choice because their urges are vastly reduced compared to the 100% homosexual for nothing other than what seems to be peer pressure on a grand scale.

    I just think you have to differentiate between one's inherent nature and some occasional or transient behavior they may engage in. Homosexuality is not defined by sexual acts. As I believe I have stated before, my daughter attended an all-girls college that supported, if not outright celebrated, lebianism. As she described it, there were plenty of girls who experimented with different lifestyle choices, some just for fun, some to fit in with a particular group. Those types of people are not "gay".

    And IMO, that's one thing that muddies the waters in these discussions. Because there are people like the ones described above, or others who have psychological or emotional issues that will result in them being confused about their sexuality. I suspect that 95% of those who claim they have "cured their gay" fall into this category (i.e. they were not really gay to begin with).

    And the other 5% are lying -- they haven't changed at all.

    Since we had this discussion recently, I (vaguely) remember some of the reading I did for it (yes, I often do homework before coming to class). The gist of it seemed like there was a difference between "genetic gay" and "developmental gay" (and by developmental, I mean before birth). Modern research was downgrading the incidence of the former and focusing more on the latter. The end result was still the same--people are born with their orientation--it was a difference of exactly when the development occurred.

    And, as most have said, whether it is or isn't is irrelevant, IMO. Even if it were completely a personal choice, that would not make any difference, since their is nothing inherently wrong with it.

    I guess what I am just trying to get at is that the their is a smal population of people in the world who are genetically gay, which means to me that they are almost exclusively attracted to the same sex sexually, romantically, and lovingly. I think that as a society we are much to scared to admit that .
  • Bahet
    Bahet Posts: 1,254 Member
    It shouldn't even matter. I like tall men. I'm not genetically predisposed to like men over a certain height but I am just not attracted to short guys. When I findout some celebrity I thought was attractive is really only 5'4" they lose a lot of attractiveness to me. So I chose a tall man. But fortunately for me no one is going to say "Well I think it's icky to marry someone over 6'2" so therefore your marriage is invalid." or "The Bible says that those who are closer to the Earth are holy so therefore tall people are against the Bible and shouldn't be allowed to marry." Why should it be any different for a gay couple? I've actually never seen a valid non religious argument against gay marriage that didn't boil down to "I think it's gross." I don't care if someone wants to be with a tall person, a fat person, a bald person, a person with kids, and old person, a person of the same sex, a person of a different race, a person of a different religion, etc. It just shouldn't matter. No one ever asks "Is interracial dating a choice?" because it doesn't matter. Why should anyone have to try to justify who they are attracted to?
  • atomiclauren
    atomiclauren Posts: 689 Member
    I don't think it's a choice because I personally don't feel that anyone can pick and choose who they are attracted to. I could TRY to be attracted to a woman the same as I am a man, but it wouldn't be the same. My lesbian friend can TRY to be attracted to men, and indeed, tried in the past to please her family, but she is who she is. Bisexual people can and are attracted to both sexes. Everyone is different. I can't explain why I like to eat black forest cake--I just like it. I can pretend to NOT like it, but I'd be lying. I'd be lying if I said I liked to eat lamb--I don't like the taste, and I have no idea why. Sexuality, in my opinion, is the same--it is different for everyone.
    Why should anyone have to try to justify who they are attracted to?

    ^These statements pretty much sum it up. I also believe that Kinsey's sexual orientation continuum is valid - definitely not a black and white issue. I don't choose who I'm attracted to but I can of course choose to act on it or pursue anything. Anyone can choose to be true to his/her feelings or deny them. I also tend to think that heterosexual folks that claim to be 100% are quite possibly choosing to deny any kind of same-sex attraction. Who knows. (*ducks* :flowerforyou: )
  • KimmyEB
    KimmyEB Posts: 1,208 Member
    I also tend to think that heterosexual folks that claim to be 100% are quite possibly choosing to deny any kind of same-sex attraction. Who knows. (*ducks* :flowerforyou: )

    I remember either watching or reading an interview with Natalie Portman saying something like this. I think she said something along the lines of "I wouldn't limit myself to only being attracted to one gender, when the possibility is out there." I can't remember her exact words.
  • Bahet
    Bahet Posts: 1,254 Member
    I also tend to think that heterosexual folks that claim to be 100% are quite possibly choosing to deny any kind of same-sex attraction. Who knows. (*ducks* :flowerforyou: )

    I remember either watching or reading an interview with Natalie Portman saying something like this. I think she said something along the lines of "I wouldn't limit myself to only being attracted to one gender, when the possibility is out there." I can't remember her exact words.
    I disagree. I like men. I can appreciate a beautiful woman. I think Anne Hathaway is stunning. But I don't ever think about doing to her the things I'd like to do to Joe Mangelleo. My sister is gay. She can appreciate that Joe is sexy but she can't picture wanting to do to him the things she'd like to do to Anne.
  • KimmyEB
    KimmyEB Posts: 1,208 Member
    I also tend to think that heterosexual folks that claim to be 100% are quite possibly choosing to deny any kind of same-sex attraction. Who knows. (*ducks* :flowerforyou: )

    I remember either watching or reading an interview with Natalie Portman saying something like this. I think she said something along the lines of "I wouldn't limit myself to only being attracted to one gender, when the possibility is out there." I can't remember her exact words.
    I disagree. I like men. I can appreciate a beautiful woman. I think Anne Hathaway is stunning. But I don't ever think about doing to her the things I'd like to do to Joe Mangelleo. My sister is gay. She can appreciate that Joe is sexy but she can't picture wanting to do to him the things she'd like to do to Anne.

    I think what Natalie Portman meant by her quote was more along the lines of the fact that while she doesn't identify herself as gay or bisexual (at least she didn't at the time, who knows if that's changed, I don't follow celebrities much :tongue: ), she wasn't flat-out saying "It would never happen" and that if her feelings changed, she'd embrace it.
  • LemonSnap
    LemonSnap Posts: 186 Member
    The emotion is not a choice.

    Acting on that emotion is.
  • KimmyEB
    KimmyEB Posts: 1,208 Member
    The emotion is not a choice.

    Acting on that emotion is.

    Care to elaborate more?
  • EvanKeel
    EvanKeel Posts: 1,903 Member
    The emotion is not a choice.

    Acting on that emotion is.

    Care to elaborate more?

    I believe she means that the only element of choice revolves around behavior. The emotional aspect that's tied to our identities is not a choice, but I'm not in her head. :)

    Frequently people who are opposed to homosexuality ignore the difference, and they speak and operate under the assumption that being gay is exclusively all about sex acts. A la, "how will I explain two men holding hands to my kid!" The implication is that they're afraid of having to go into detail about the couple's bedroom activities, but there isn't a need to. It's not like they would go into graphic detail about bedroom activities if a man and a woman were holding hands.
  • KimmyEB
    KimmyEB Posts: 1,208 Member
    The emotion is not a choice.

    Acting on that emotion is.

    Care to elaborate more?

    I believe she means that the only element of choice revolves around behavior. The emotional aspect that's tied to our identities is not a choice, but I'm not in her head. :)

    Frequently people who are opposed to homosexuality ignore the difference, and they speak and operate under the assumption that being gay is exclusively all about sex acts. A la, "how will I explain two men holding hands to my kid!" The implication is that they're afraid of having to go into detail about the couple's bedroom activities, but there isn't a need to. It's not like they would go into graphic detail about bedroom activities if a man and a woman were holding hands.

    That's pretty much what I got from the statement as well. :tongue:
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