Is Homosexuality a Choice?

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Replies

  • macpatti
    macpatti Posts: 4,280 Member
    I meant to post this reply before 5 pm PST for Evan, but I forgot. I saw the comment saying homosexuality itself is not a choice, but acting on it is. This is a typical Christian statement regarding homosexuality as a sin. "Being" homosexual is not a sin, but engaging in the sexual act is- in the eyes of many Christians. To this I say, "So what"? So, you think someone else is sinning. What makes some Christians think they can go around pointing fingers at others' sins? We all sin. How about lying, stealing, cheating, judging? ALL sins. What makes Christian thieves think they are morally superior to homosexuals? What makes Christians who constantly lie think they are "better" than hosexuals? What makes heterosexual cheating spouses think they have any right making comments about homosexuality being a sin?

    Any Christian care to debate these points with me?
  • LemonSnap
    LemonSnap Posts: 186 Member
    I meant to post this reply before 5 pm PST for Evan, but I forgot. I saw the comment saying homosexuality itself is not a choice, but acting on it is. This is a typical Christian statement regarding homosexuality as a sin. "Being" homosexual is not a sin, but engaging in the sexual act is- in the eyes of many Christians. To this I say, "So what"? So, you think someone else is sinning. What makes some Christians think they can go around pointing fingers at others' sins? We all sin. How about lying, stealing, cheating, judging? ALL sins. What makes Christian thieves think they are morally superior to homosexuals? What makes Christians who constantly lie think they are "better" than hosexuals? What makes heterosexual cheating spouses think they have any right making comments about homosexuality being a sin?

    Any Christian care to debate these points with me?

    As your suggested debate is a topic other than 'Is Homosexuality a Choice' and restricted to Christians only you should start a new thread.
  • KimmyEB
    KimmyEB Posts: 1,208 Member
    I meant to post this reply before 5 pm PST for Evan, but I forgot. I saw the comment saying homosexuality itself is not a choice, but acting on it is. This is a typical Christian statement regarding homosexuality as a sin. "Being" homosexual is not a sin, but engaging in the sexual act is- in the eyes of many Christians. To this I say, "So what"? So, you think someone else is sinning. What makes some Christians think they can go around pointing fingers at others' sins? We all sin. How about lying, stealing, cheating, judging? ALL sins. What makes Christian thieves think they are morally superior to homosexuals? What makes Christians who constantly lie think they are "better" than hosexuals? What makes heterosexual cheating spouses think they have any right making comments about homosexuality being a sin?

    Any Christian care to debate these points with me?

    As your suggested debate is a topic other than 'Is Homosexuality a Choice' and restricted to Christians only you should start a new thread.

    So...does that mean Evan was right in his assumption of what you said? o.O
  • macpatti
    macpatti Posts: 4,280 Member
    As your suggested debate is a topic other than 'Is Homosexuality a Choice' and restricted to Christians only you should start a new thread.
    Meh. The threads/topics in here usually go in different directions. I wasn't saying ONLY Christians could respond, just wondering if any wanted to.
  • castadiva
    castadiva Posts: 2,016 Member
    As your suggested debate is a topic other than 'Is Homosexuality a Choice' and restricted to Christians only you should start a new thread.
    Meh. The threads/topics in here usually go in different directions. I wasn't saying ONLY Christians could respond, just wondering if any wanted to.

    If I disagreed with you, I might. But I'm in agreement, at least as far as "let he who is without sin throw the first stone" and the un-Christian nature of judgmental behaviour goes, so nothing to add/debate!
  • CasperO
    CasperO Posts: 2,913 Member
    Here's the Salvation Army's position - and it's fairly typical of that point of view. Hate the sin, love the sinner, and all that.

    "The Salvation Army does not consider same-sex orientation blameworthy in itself. Homosexual conduct, like heterosexual conduct, requires individual responsibility and must be guided by the light of scriptural teaching. Scripture forbids sexual intimacy between members of the same sex. The Salvation Army believes, therefore, that Christians whose sexual orientation is primarily or exclusively same-sex are called upon to embrace celibacy as a way of life.”
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    Here's the Salvation Army's position - and it's fairly typical of that point of view. Hate the sin, love the sinner, and all that.

    "The Salvation Army does not consider same-sex orientation blameworthy in itself. Homosexual conduct, like heterosexual conduct, requires individual responsibility and must be guided by the light of scriptural teaching. Scripture forbids sexual intimacy between members of the same sex. The Salvation Army believes, therefore, that Christians whose sexual orientation is primarily or exclusively same-sex are called upon to embrace celibacy as a way of life.”

    Just goes to prove---for like the 8 billionth time--that this has nothing to do with morals, god, etc.

    It's all about people being insecure with their "yucky" parts, and trying to rationalize their neuroses by dressing them up in fancy clothes and calling them "religious beliefs". (not to mention, picking and choosing which "scripture" parts they want to follow).

    Sorry--I can't "love" these sinners, no matter how much I am supposed to.
  • castadiva
    castadiva Posts: 2,016 Member
    Here's the Salvation Army's position - and it's fairly typical of that point of view. Hate the sin, love the sinner, and all that.

    "The Salvation Army does not consider same-sex orientation blameworthy in itself. Homosexual conduct, like heterosexual conduct, requires individual responsibility and must be guided by the light of scriptural teaching. Scripture forbids sexual intimacy between members of the same sex. The Salvation Army believes, therefore, that Christians whose sexual orientation is primarily or exclusively same-sex are called upon to embrace celibacy as a way of life.”

    Just goes to prove---for like the 8 billionth time--that this has nothing to do with morals, god, etc.

    It's all about people being insecure with their "yucky" parts, and trying to rationalize their neuroses by dressing them up in fancy clothes and calling them "religious beliefs". (not to mention, picking and choosing which "scripture" parts they want to follow).

    Sorry--I can't "love" these sinners, no matter how much I am supposed to.

    Which ones? :laugh: I don't agree with the Sallies' conclusions, but at least their stance is clear, logical, in light of their beliefs, and moderately compassionate, in contrast with some of the more extreme (un)Christian groups.
  • macpatti
    macpatti Posts: 4,280 Member
    Sorry--I can't "love" these sinners, no matter how much I am supposed to.
    Then you're just as bad. We ALL are sinners, but we are all deserving of love, respect and dignity. Again, who are we to measure sin against sin?
  • ItsCasey
    ItsCasey Posts: 4,021 Member
    I meant to post this reply before 5 pm PST for Evan, but I forgot. I saw the comment saying homosexuality itself is not a choice, but acting on it is. This is a typical Christian statement regarding homosexuality as a sin. "Being" homosexual is not a sin, but engaging in the sexual act is- in the eyes of many Christians. To this I say, "So what"? So, you think someone else is sinning. What makes some Christians think they can go around pointing fingers at others' sins? We all sin. How about lying, stealing, cheating, judging? ALL sins. What makes Christian thieves think they are morally superior to homosexuals? What makes Christians who constantly lie think they are "better" than hosexuals? What makes heterosexual cheating spouses think they have any right making comments about homosexuality being a sin?

    Any Christian care to debate these points with me?

    I don't think I am morally superior to homosexuals. God knows I fall short of His glory every single day. Homosexuals are no less deserving of love than I am. But the New Testament does teach that love for a sinner does not mean tolerating or condoning his or her sin. Believing that homosexual behavior is sinful doesn't mean that I think it's somehow "better" in God's eyes to be a liar or a thief.
  • ItsCasey
    ItsCasey Posts: 4,021 Member
    Here's the Salvation Army's position - and it's fairly typical of that point of view. Hate the sin, love the sinner, and all that.

    "The Salvation Army does not consider same-sex orientation blameworthy in itself. Homosexual conduct, like heterosexual conduct, requires individual responsibility and must be guided by the light of scriptural teaching. Scripture forbids sexual intimacy between members of the same sex. The Salvation Army believes, therefore, that Christians whose sexual orientation is primarily or exclusively same-sex are called upon to embrace celibacy as a way of life.”

    Just goes to prove---for like the 8 billionth time--that this has nothing to do with morals, god, etc.

    It's all about people being insecure with their "yucky" parts, and trying to rationalize their neuroses by dressing them up in fancy clothes and calling them "religious beliefs". (not to mention, picking and choosing which "scripture" parts they want to follow).

    Sorry--I can't "love" these sinners, no matter how much I am supposed to.

    In other words, anyone who believes differently than you is neurotic, hypocritical, and wrong. You're just the tolerant voice of reason this thread needed.
  • KimmyEB
    KimmyEB Posts: 1,208 Member
    In other words, anyone who believes differently than you is neurotic, hypocritical, and wrong. You're just the tolerant voice of reason this thread needed.


    You have offered up nothing but personal "my friends..." stories and "The Bible says so" for your argument. Do you really want to throw stones in your glass house?
  • Bahet
    Bahet Posts: 1,254 Member
    I meant to post this reply before 5 pm PST for Evan, but I forgot. I saw the comment saying homosexuality itself is not a choice, but acting on it is. This is a typical Christian statement regarding homosexuality as a sin. "Being" homosexual is not a sin, but engaging in the sexual act is- in the eyes of many Christians. To this I say, "So what"? So, you think someone else is sinning. What makes some Christians think they can go around pointing fingers at others' sins? We all sin. How about lying, stealing, cheating, judging? ALL sins. What makes Christian thieves think they are morally superior to homosexuals? What makes Christians who constantly lie think they are "better" than hosexuals? What makes heterosexual cheating spouses think they have any right making comments about homosexuality being a sin?

    Any Christian care to debate these points with me?

    Look lady - it's one thing to have me agreeing with you but now you're making me start to actually like you! Stop it!! :laugh:

    (Seriously though - excellent post! I couldn't agree more. :) )
  • EvanKeel
    EvanKeel Posts: 1,903 Member
    The induction of religion into this discussion raises my hackles. That's not to say it doesn't belong or that people shouldn't discuss it, but it does put me on alert.

    And I think it may be because the idea of homosexuality being a choice isn't about acceptance or approval. Instead, it's more closely related to discussions of legal rights and benefits, etc. So when we talk about homosexuality from a religious point of view there are only so many possible conclusions. You can either agree or disagree with homosexual behavior being sinful in a particular religious framework.

    To which I say, so what? I'm sure it's important to religious folk, and even more important to religious lgbtq folk, but ultimately the conversation reaches a dead end when we're talking about a larger view because religious ideas of sin do not (should not) play a part in the aforementioned discussions of legal rights and benefits.

    Just my personal my view on that particular turn of the conversation.
  • Bahet
    Bahet Posts: 1,254 Member
    I meant to post this reply before 5 pm PST for Evan, but I forgot. I saw the comment saying homosexuality itself is not a choice, but acting on it is. This is a typical Christian statement regarding homosexuality as a sin. "Being" homosexual is not a sin, but engaging in the sexual act is- in the eyes of many Christians. To this I say, "So what"? So, you think someone else is sinning. What makes some Christians think they can go around pointing fingers at others' sins? We all sin. How about lying, stealing, cheating, judging? ALL sins. What makes Christian thieves think they are morally superior to homosexuals? What makes Christians who constantly lie think they are "better" than hosexuals? What makes heterosexual cheating spouses think they have any right making comments about homosexuality being a sin?

    Any Christian care to debate these points with me?

    I don't think I am morally superior to homosexuals. God knows I fall short of His glory every single day. Homosexuals are no less deserving of love than I am. But the New Testament does teach that love for a sinner does not mean tolerating or condoning his or her sin. Believing that homosexual behavior is sinful doesn't mean that I think it's somehow "better" in God's eyes to be a liar or a thief.
    Gays really don't care about having "Christians" "tolerate or condone" their behaviour. They just want you to treat them the same as you treat your best friend, spouse, mother, neighbor, etc - who are all sinners too. But you never see "Christians" who single out homosexuality as a sin they won't tolerate or condone doing the same to someone who says "No, that dress doesn't make your butt look fat" or working on Sunday or being envious of their neighbors new car. Yet those sins they don't focus on are against the 10 Commandments. I guess it's probably because they are guilty of breaking those Commandments too that makes them somehow less worthy of condemnation than homosexuality (which is only mentioned as a sin in the Old Testament right along with wearing mixed fabrics and planting 2 crops in the same area.)
  • macpatti
    macpatti Posts: 4,280 Member
    I don't think I am morally superior to homosexuals. God knows I fall short of His glory every single day. Homosexuals are no less deserving of love than I am. But the New Testament does teach that love for a sinner does not mean tolerating or condoning his or her sin. Believing that homosexual behavior is sinful doesn't mean that I think it's somehow "better" in God's eyes to be a liar or a thief.
    That's pretty much what I was saying. You don't have to condone the behavior, but we were never taught to bash or hate any sinners.
  • macpatti
    macpatti Posts: 4,280 Member
    Just my personal my view on that particular turn of the conversation.
    The only reason I addressed it head-on was in response to the person who did it in a passive-aggressive way. It was my way of saying "so what"?'
  • macpatti
    macpatti Posts: 4,280 Member
    Look lady - it's one thing to have me agreeing with you but now you're making me start to actually like you! Stop it!! :laugh:
    (Seriously though - excellent post! I couldn't agree more. :) )
    This is getting frightening! Ha!
  • atomiclauren
    atomiclauren Posts: 689 Member
    Homosexual conduct, like heterosexual conduct, requires individual responsibility and must be guided by the light of scriptural teaching. Scripture forbids sexual intimacy between members of the same sex. The Salvation Army believes, therefore, that Christians whose sexual orientation is primarily or exclusively same-sex are called upon to embrace celibacy as a way of life.”

    Wow. I knew the general stance of the Salvation Army but had never read this. Like mentioned previously, WTF is this "conduct" business?! Is it when we bought our house? Is it when we go grocery shopping? Is it when I picked up my dry cleaning? We don't do those things any more homo than heteros do! :blushing:

    I find it veeeeerrrry creepy that they're so concerned about my (and everyone else's) personal activities - and also, if I were Christian, to "embrace celibacy as a way of life." Sooo presumptuous and self-righteous..
  • macpatti
    macpatti Posts: 4,280 Member
    I find it veeeeerrrry creepy that they're so concerned about my (and everyone else's) personal activities - and also, if I were Christian, to "embrace celibacy as a way of life." Sooo presumptuous and self-righteous..
    That's the part that really gets me- to tell everyone who is born homosexual that they should live a life of celibacy. I know some who have chosen this way of life, just as I know heterosexuals who have. That should be between the individual, their priest (or whatever kind of spiritual advisor they choose) and God. Who am I to tell Lauren she has to either sleep with a man or not ever have sex? By the way, you ditched me last month for our beer date and we must do that before school starts!
  • macpatti
    macpatti Posts: 4,280 Member
    In other words, anyone who believes differently than you is neurotic, hypocritical, and wrong. You're just the tolerant voice of reason this thread needed.
    You have offered up nothing but personal "my friends..." stories and "The Bible says so" for your argument. Do you really want to throw stones in your glass house?

    I agree with what she's saying, Kimmy. How is his approach to "not loving the sinners" any better?
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    Sorry--I can't "love" these sinners, no matter how much I am supposed to.
    Then you're just as bad. We ALL are sinners, but we are all deserving of love, respect and dignity. Again, who are we to measure sin against sin?

    Patti, I love you (despite your sins) :tongue: It was a play on words from C's comments. You should know by now, that I don't believe in the traditional concept of "sin" and certainly would never, ever, use the term "sinner" in the same way that you do.
  • macpatti
    macpatti Posts: 4,280 Member
    Patti, I love you (despite your sins) :tongue: It was a play on words from C's comments. You should know by now, that I don't believe in the traditional concept of "sin" and certainly would never, ever, use the term "sinner" in the same way that you do.

    :flowerforyou:
  • Bahet
    Bahet Posts: 1,254 Member
    Homosexual conduct, like heterosexual conduct, requires individual responsibility and must be guided by the light of scriptural teaching. Scripture forbids sexual intimacy between members of the same sex. The Salvation Army believes, therefore, that Christians whose sexual orientation is primarily or exclusively same-sex are called upon to embrace celibacy as a way of life.”

    Wow. I knew the general stance of the Salvation Army but had never read this. Like mentioned previously, WTF is this "conduct" business?! Is it when we bought our house? Is it when we go grocery shopping? Is it when I picked up my dry cleaning? We don't do those things any more homo than heteros do! :blushing:

    I find it veeeeerrrry creepy that they're so concerned about my (and everyone else's) personal activities - and also, if I were Christian, to "embrace celibacy as a way of life." Sooo presumptuous and self-righteous..
    Maybe the dry cleaning. Gay men are WAAAY better dressers than straight men. :laugh:
  • KimmyEB
    KimmyEB Posts: 1,208 Member
    In other words, anyone who believes differently than you is neurotic, hypocritical, and wrong. You're just the tolerant voice of reason this thread needed.
    You have offered up nothing but personal "my friends..." stories and "The Bible says so" for your argument. Do you really want to throw stones in your glass house?

    I agree with what she's saying, Kimmy. How is his approach to "not loving the sinners" any better?

    He clarified already, but I had a feeling that he isn't one to follow the whole "sin" thing.
  • KayteeBear
    KayteeBear Posts: 1,040 Member
    I don't think it's a choice. If it was there would be way less people who are homosexual. Seriously, through all the bullying and sometimes death threats and verbal abuse, etc, etc, I'm pretty sure if it was a choice, they wouldn't have chosen that path in life. And I don't see anything wrong with them acting on it. I'm Christian.. Guess what? Most of everyone sins in some way (lying, swearing, simple stuff like that) so who cares if it's a sin. I don't think homosexuals should have to hide who they are just to please others. If that is who they truly are and what makes them happy, then who are we to tell them what to do or that they have to be unhappy just to please others? I'm a huge "whatever floats your boat/it ain't my life so it ain't my business" type of person.

    However, as somebody said a lot of gay/bisexual people they knew in their younger years ended up married with kids at adults...I think that there is a lot of people who go through confused gay phases when they're younger and sometimes get older and realize they aren't truly gay. Or bisexual people who just are attracted to the same sex but usually date and end up marrying the opposite sex. I don't think you can judge all gays by that.

    I believe some people get confused, but if somebody is dead certain they're gay then I don't think it's a choice. Who would chose being rejected by society and friends and disowned by their family?

    I have a gay guy friend and he is so awesome and I love him to death. But he gets bullied sooooooo horribly and he's had family disown him and friends leave him because of it. That's not a choice in my opinion. That's him being who he truly is to make himself happy instead of please others.
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