Dr. Laura: Male Expectations Have Changed
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Who here is placing blame?
Because seriously, all you said is that women have to suck it up and do it all because we asked for it and now we whine and complain. You said that stay at home moms sit around and eat bon bons and cry about how now we're expected to work too.
You're backtracking hardcore here now dude. Own up to what you say, it's been quoted enough you can't just go back and edit it.
You made general remarks about an entire gender that were offensive and you got called out on it. Then on top of that you aren't even addressing the really hard hitting comments in response to yours. You're picking and choosing the little easy to respond to nice parts. Now instead of admitting that your statements were exaggerated and inaccurate you're just backpedaling yourself further into a hole.
OK dude :laugh:
I'm not backpeddling from anything. I stand by what I said. Women who are SAHM have no right to complain about being overwork. If you work a full time job and have kids and a husband to care for, then I'm sure you are busy, but a real woman would suck it up and take care of business. Or, they'd divorce their lazy husband and meet someone who'll carry their own weight.
Geez, no reason to get all bent out of shape here :happy:
Mike, gotta agree with Kitsune on all this. Like she said, you want to put 1+1 together and make 2 but the situation isn't that simple.
I was going to say this earlier but I thought it would be rude but I'm going to say it now. With your attitude, I think you are going to have a hard time finding a mate. It is going to be hard to find a "real woman" who won't put up with crap. You have this idea of what will occur in a relationship, but in actually if a relationship is real it will have twists and turns and it won't be like what you pictured and you have to be willjng to work on it. I get the impression that to you everything is cut and dry and you are unwilling to waver. If your future wife has a problem are you really going to say "well a real woman would be able to figure it out?"0 -
There's no reason a woman can't get off her butt and work a 40-50 hour a week job like millions of men do. In fact, being current times, I'd insist that my wife or girlfriend work. There's no reason why she shouldn't.
Just curious, would you be alright with your wife being a SAHM to your kids, whether temporarily while they are small or indefinitely? Let's say you all discussed this way beforehand, before the marriage, before the engagement, while you were still dating. You both agreed that wife would have baby, wife would stay home for allotted maternity leave (6-8 wks typically), and then she would return to the force.
But after Baby #1 arrives, she changes her mind and would really like to be a SAHM. Maybe you can't truly know the answer to this right now, but I was just wondering what your initial response might be when you imagine the situation. Would you be upset? Would you tell her no, she needs to go back to work (assuming it is needed financially)? How about on a part-time basis? Just throwing this out there.0 -
I simply would not put up with a man who sat on his *kitten* and expected me to take care of the house and kids after we both came home from work. He'd get up and help me or he'd be gone for good, basically. Men my age didn't grow up in the 50's, they shouldn't expect a June Cleaver.
If I ever had the opportunity to stay at home, I'd have myself up early and a damn dinner on the table by 6. When you stay at home, that IS your job. At my job now, I keep on top of everything with organization and pre-planning. I'm convinced that the same strategy could be applied to housework and kids. My own mom always did all of that with a full time job and four kids. Then, because that wasn't enough to keep her busy, she crammed in getting her degree at 40. Needless to say, I have little sympathy for "overworked" SAHMs.
All of this is kind of why I'm against living together before marriage. If a man doesn't live with you, he's forced to take care of himself from the get go in your relationship. So he's "well-trained" when you do get married.
I'm glad one woman on here actually "gets it".
Except she doesn't. The problem isn't about overworked stay-at-home-moms. The problem is specifically in regards to the expectation for women to work full time jobs, keep the house, keep the kids and keep the white picket fence all going at the same time. No one is complaining that stay at home moms are overworked - just that it's nothing to be ashamed of, and it's definitely not sitting around doing nothing all day.
While I agree if you choose to be a SAHM then yeah, do it and do it right, you have missed the entire point completely.
Go back and read my first paragraph. The "expectation" exists because women allow it to persist. If a man tries this crap, you simply tell him to get it together or get the hell out. That's how women free themselves of that expectation. How is that hard for folks to understand? Lay it out for him while you're dating that you will not accept that as status quo in a marriage situation. He'll know going in what you will and will not put up with. If he bolts because you don't fulfill his backward "expectation," who cares? You saved yourself a whole lot of trouble.
I can't tell you how many women I know who go and do all kinds of domestic things for their boyfriends to "show they care." Cleaning their apartments, washing their laundry. I guess it satisfies some maternal craving or something. It's a horrible precedent to set. If you are dating a man and not a boy, he should do every single bit of that himself. Period. No exceptions. Why not? I do all of my own stuff. That's why I added the part about not living together. It sets you up for this problem.0 -
This coming from the guy who recently went on a rant about how real men do not want to raise another man's children...If you work a full time job and have kids and a husband to care for, then I'm sure you are busy, but a real woman would suck it up and take care of business. Or, they'd divorce their lazy husband and meet someone who'll carry their own weight.
It amazes me the way you pick and choose how you feel about certain situations depending on how they favor your gender, and then have the audacity to complain about girls vs. women. :noway: Even in your example above, all the blame for a lazy husband lies on the wife, not the guy who is the one being lazy!
Oh and thank you Kitsune & Christine, 99% of what you wrote here is exactly what I was thinking too!0 -
Mike, gotta agree with Kitsune on all this. Like she said, you want to put 1+1 together and make 2 but the situation isn't that simple.
I was going to say this earlier but I thought it would be rude but I'm going to say it now. With your attitude, I think you are going to have a hard time finding a mate. It is going to be hard to find a "real woman" who won't put up with crap. You have this idea of what will occur in a relationship, but in actually if a relationship is real it will have twists and turns and it won't be like what you pictured and you have to be willjng to work on it. I get the impression that to you everything is cut and dry and you are unwilling to waver. If your future wife has a problem are you really going to say "well a real woman would be able to figure it out?"
Right. For the record, I can guarantee you that I've had more dating experience by 14 than you've had at 24. I've been in serious relationships and I completely understand give and take. Fortunately, most women I date are mature and understand the dynamics of working toward a common goal. And yes, I'm one of those guys who would gladly do the laundry and dishes in a relationship because I've been there and have done it numerous times.
And I'd like you to share some examples of all the "twist and turns" you've experienced in your vast relationship experiences. I've dated women who've been laid off from work and I had to pick up the slack. I know a thing or two about twist and turns.
Bottom line, what I won't deal with is immaturity and someone who insists upon playing the blame game.0 -
This coming from the guy who recently went on a rant about how real men do not want to raise another man's children...If you work a full time job and have kids and a husband to care for, then I'm sure you are busy, but a real woman would suck it up and take care of business. Or, they'd divorce their lazy husband and meet someone who'll carry their own weight.
It amazes me the way you pick and choose how you feel about certain situations depending on how they favor your gender, and then have the audacity to complain about girls vs. women. :noway: Even in your example above, all the blame for a lazy husband lies on the wife, not the guy who is the one being lazy!
Oh and thank you Kitsune & Christine, 99% of what you wrote here is exactly what I was thinking too!
Sorry, wrong again PJ. I just expect a women to handle the situation appropriately. I openly said in my one post that the women should kick the husbands butt to the curb if he doesn't want to make a marriage work.
All I can say is that I'm fortunate that I never had to date anyone with your, tchristine, or kitsunes attitude before.0 -
There's no reason a woman can't get off her butt and work a 40-50 hour a week job like millions of men do. In fact, being current times, I'd insist that my wife or girlfriend work. There's no reason why she shouldn't.
Just curious, would you be alright with your wife being a SAHM to your kids, whether temporarily while they are small or indefinitely? Let's say you all discussed this way beforehand, before the marriage, before the engagement, while you were still dating. You both agreed that wife would have baby, wife would stay home for allotted maternity leave (6-8 wks typically), and then she would return to the force.
But after Baby #1 arrives, she changes her mind and would really like to be a SAHM. Maybe you can't truly know the answer to this right now, but I was just wondering what your initial response might be when you imagine the situation. Would you be upset? Would you tell her no, she needs to go back to work (assuming it is needed financially)? How about on a part-time basis? Just throwing this out there.
After the baby arrives, you don't change your mind. To change your mind when it comes to such a serious aspect of your life is absolutely mind boggling.
Before you have kids, you discuss whether it's best to be a SAHM, work part time, or return to the workforce full time after your maternity leave is up. My brother and his wife discussed this in great details before they decided to have children, she wanted to return to the workforce because she had a very high paying job and they wanted to maintain their lifestyle. These are VERY adult decisions that need to be made before you take such a huge step and have children. You don't just change your mind.0 -
Just reading through the whole thread, there's a theme throughout that I think warrants discussion.
I think it is clear that there's a lot of stress in the whole house in the suburbs, 2 kids and a dog lifestyle. Would more people be better off if they opted out of that lifestyle? Think about the near opposite of that. A childless couple living in an apartment or urban condo, with 2 incomes. The man doesn't have to spend his free time on as many household maintenance tasks in a condo. In an apartment, the landlord will do everything. There's no financial burden of child rearing, nor are there the stresses of the day to day existence of dealing with kids. Two people just go about their work lives and in their post work lives are free to enjoy one another. They can share household tasks like cooking, cleaning, laundry and grocery shopping. There's more freedom to travel or do whatever they please.0 -
Mike, gotta agree with Kitsune on all this. Like she said, you want to put 1+1 together and make 2 but the situation isn't that simple.
I was going to say this earlier but I thought it would be rude but I'm going to say it now. With your attitude, I think you are going to have a hard time finding a mate. It is going to be hard to find a "real woman" who won't put up with crap. You have this idea of what will occur in a relationship, but in actually if a relationship is real it will have twists and turns and it won't be like what you pictured and you have to be willjng to work on it. I get the impression that to you everything is cut and dry and you are unwilling to waver. If your future wife has a problem are you really going to say "well a real woman would be able to figure it out?"
Right. For the record, I can guarantee you that I've had more dating experience by 14 than you've had at 24. I've been in serious relationships and I completely understand give and take. Fortunately, most women I date are mature and understand the dynamics of working toward a common goal. And yes, I'm one of those guys who would gladly do the laundry and dishes in a relationship because I've been there and have done it numerous times.
And I'd like you to share some examples of all the "twist and turns" you've experienced in your vast relationship experiences. I've dated women who've been laid off from work and I had to pick up the slack. I know a thing or two about twist and turns.
Bottom line, what I won't deal with is immaturity and someone who insists upon playing the blame game.
It is true that I lack experience. I've been 100% honest about that here. However that doesn't mean I don't know anything!! It kinda sounds like you're bragging...but I am sure you were hot on the dating market at 14
Twists and turns...unplanned pregnancy, getting laid off, family member dying, family or friends not liking your relationship, not on the same page about children, money problems...0 -
It is true that I lack experience. I've been 100% honest about that here. However that doesn't mean I don't know anything!! It kinda sounds like you're bragging...but I am sure you were hot on the dating market at 14
Twists and turns...unplanned pregnancy, getting laid off, family member dying, family or friends not liking your relationship, not on the same page about children, money problems...
Believe me, I'm not bragging. I'm just saying that I do have extensive experience when it comes to partnerships and trying to make things work.
Unplanned pregnancies.. please. File that under responsibility.
Your friends or family don't like your partner? Well, is there a good reason for it? Maybe they are trying to help you out.
Not on the same page about children.. then you shouldn't have kids in the first place and shouldn't even be together!0 -
Just reading through the whole thread, there's a theme throughout that I think warrants discussion.
I think it is clear that there's a lot of stress in the whole house in the suburbs, 2 kids and a dog lifestyle. Would more people be better off if they opted out of that lifestyle? Think about the near opposite of that. A childless couple living in an apartment or urban condo, with 2 incomes. The man doesn't have to spend his free time on as many household maintenance tasks in a condo. In an apartment, the landlord will do everything. There's no financial burden of child rearing, nor are there the stresses of the day to day existence of dealing with kids. Two people just go about their work lives and in their post work lives are free to enjoy one another. They can share household tasks like cooking, cleaning, laundry and grocery shopping. There's more freedom to travel or do whatever they please.
There's certainly something to be said about an urban lifestyle, we use to call them DINKS when I lived in Boston. (Dual Income No Kids) lol. Come to think of it, we use the term yuppies (young urban prof) and guppies (gay urban prof) alot back when I lived in a city. Good lord, that's more acronyms than what the federal government uses.
Back to your point, I like what you described. I use to love urban living and walking to different places when I was in my late teens and twenties. When I got to my late 20's, I yearned for the suburban life. I wanted to big house, big SUV, big sunglasses, just everything big. Not sure what changed in me, but something certainly did. I think I longed for space.
There are a lot of perks to urban life, such as being close to top restaurants, clubs, and entertainment. But you'll have to deal with more crime, panhandlers, and a much higher cost of living. It's all trade-offs.0 -
There's no reason a woman can't get off her butt and work a 40-50 hour a week job like millions of men do. In fact, being current times, I'd insist that my wife or girlfriend work. There's no reason why she shouldn't.
Just curious, would you be alright with your wife being a SAHM to your kids, whether temporarily while they are small or indefinitely? Let's say you all discussed this way beforehand, before the marriage, before the engagement, while you were still dating. You both agreed that wife would have baby, wife would stay home for allotted maternity leave (6-8 wks typically), and then she would return to the force.
But after Baby #1 arrives, she changes her mind and would really like to be a SAHM. Maybe you can't truly know the answer to this right now, but I was just wondering what your initial response might be when you imagine the situation. Would you be upset? Would you tell her no, she needs to go back to work (assuming it is needed financially)? How about on a part-time basis? Just throwing this out there.
After the baby arrives, you don't change your mind. To change your mind when it comes to such a serious aspect of your life is absolutely mind boggling.
Before you have kids, you discuss whether it's best to be a SAHM, work part time, or return to the workforce full time after your maternity leave is up. My brother and his wife discussed this in great details before they decided to have children, she wanted to return to the workforce because she had a very high paying job and they wanted to maintain their lifestyle. These are VERY adult decisions that need to be made before you take such a huge step and have children. You don't just change your mind.
Ideally, no, but I've seen it happen.0 -
I'm done with this thread. There's no point in arguing with someone who has their fingers in their ears while screaming "lalala I'm a mature adult". I think it's been made clear what type of people are what and it's just not worth anymore effort on my part. I wasted a lot of good material here.0
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Not advocating a return to the “old ways” necessarily…but when current ads show the man of the house on the couch playing video games and the woman comes home from work and starts vacuuming, I'm not sure we've progressed as far as people like to say. What do you all think about Dr. Laura's statement?
http://www.drlaura.com/b/Video:-My-Adult-Son-is-Unwilling-to-Work!/578733456393438254.html
WOAH - you mean she left for work in the morning without vacuuming first? Not cool at all. I wouldn't want to get all dirty if I end up passing out on the floor before she gets home and has a chance to catch up the cleaning.
Lazy b*.0 -
Where are these women who work demanding jobs, get the kids to and from their activities after school, and then come home to clean the house, wash and iron clothes, make dinner, do the dishes, play with the kids, help with their homework, tuck everyone in, have wonderful sex with the hubby after he finishes playing video games, etc.? I mean really, is this a joke? If not, please send one to Prague! I would love to start playing video games, not to mention the great sex...
Edit: whoa, just read all of the comments here. Let me say that the above is obviously tongue in cheek... It's relatively easy to take care of yourself. It's much harder when you have a partner and need to share responsibilities. It's exponentially more difficult when you add kids to the mix. I love my kids, but even spending time on vacation with them is harder than working my full time job. Having kids changes everything significantly. I work very hard to have a clean apartment, clean clothes, kids taken care of, etc., but it's incredibly difficult. I recently hired a cleaning lady who comes once a week, and this has made a tremendous difference. In any case, I don't think some here realize how challenging it can be when kids are added to the mix. Now, back to my post... :-)
Btw, I had the classic suburban lifestyle on steroids when I briefly moved back to the US: huge house on the golf course, huge mortgage, etc. It was a huge mistake. When I moved back to the CR and got a divorce, I found a small apartment which I bought in cash and never looked back. It's still hard to maintain with two kids, but the quality of life difference is like night and day.
I'm about to buy a small piece of land to build a small cottage, because I do miss my garden. But this will be a weekend/vacation home, and it, too, will be very small (you've probably noticed the key word in this venture is "small"). The purpose is to stay more aligned with nature, encourage more time outside and off the computer, long walks, cross-country skiing in the winter, etc.
A lot of the stress of modern living is self-inflicted. You probably don't need that large home and huge garden. And when we continue to fight senseless wars that kill hundreds of thousands to ensure access to cheap energy, perhaps it's even a bit immoral.
--P0 -
I must say I don't understand this conversation.
It seems to me that no man here >>EXPECTS<< their woman to do the house chores on their own when they come back from work (assuming both are working full time). The men who have posted here all seem ready to participate and do their bit, and are already doing so as they are single.
I don't think it is the default expectation anymore from "modern men" to have the housewife coming back from work and doing all the chores. Sure you will be able to find men who still have that expectation.
As for both partners having to work full time, there is often no choice, given that the price of life has increased quite a lot (it aligned with the fact that in most households the two partners are working).
Women, it is your responsibility to find someone who will accept to share those house/kids duties with you if that matters to you. Nowadays, there are both types of men out there (50 years ago, sure, the choice wasn't there), so you just need to make sure you find the man who is on the same page as you regarding this.
And because all up for equality in genders...
Men, it is your responsibility to find someone who will accept to do all the house/kids duties for you if that matters to you. Nowadays, there are both types of women out there (50 years ago, sure, the choice wasn't there), so you just need to make sure you find a woman who is on the same page as you regarding this.
This is true.I can't tell you how many women I know who go and do all kinds of domestic things for their boyfriends to "show they care." Cleaning their apartments, washing their laundry. I guess it satisfies some maternal craving or something. It's a horrible precedent to set. If you are dating a man and not a boy, he should do every single bit of that himself. Period. No exceptions. Why not? I do all of my own stuff. That's why I added the part about not living together. It sets you up for this problem.
Also the fact that some men might generally have lower standards when it comes to the definition of a "clean house".0 -
In my view, Dr Laura has it wrong. The problem is that male expectations haven't actually changed. The average male still expects the woman of the house to cook, clean, and provide 99% of childcare, just as his (usually SAHM) mother did. On top of a full-time job outside the house. And then: run their joint social life, keep herself looking 'hot' for him, and be up for endless fun in the bedroom. Some people talk about the 'third shift' most modern women run, of household and child-care responsibilities. To me, raised by two 'professional' parents, only one of whom did any significant parenting, cleaning or cooking, despite having the more demanding job, 'third' is an understatement. Try 'fourth, fifth and sixth' shifts. I don't think my mother slept more than three or four hours a night from the time I was born until my younger sister was well into her teenage years and able to look after herself in large part. Mum "sucked it up" and coped, just, at vast expense to her health, "social life", and ultimately, her mariage.
Forgive me, and all my ilk, if we don't think it is right that our mothers experienced that, or wish to emulate them. Forgive us mere women for having the effrontery to think that if we are putting in equal effort and time in jobs outside the home, then you can bloody well pull your weight in the house as well. That doesn't mean occasional help around the house, making the odd meal and mowing the lawn. That means that your social life, your gym time, your after-work outings with your buddies and your round of golf at the weekends are all forfeit in the service of collecting and delivering kids from school and after-school activities, taking them to the doctor/dentist/tutor's house, buying the groceries, picking up the drycleaning, and taking little Bobby to buy a new hockey stick/pair of ballet shoes/school uniform. That means you don't get to come home, and put your feet up after a "long day at work". That means you come home, and, with me, start the next load of washing and hang it up, do the ironing, make dinner, fill in the forms, go to the parent-teacher conferences, clear out the garage, fix the computer/phone/squeaky door, help with homework, support and cherish your kids, and take care of the thousand-and-one time-consuming minutiae that keep a family - not a single person, or even an adult couple, but a family - running. Then, and only then, when all that is done, do you get to factor in some of the other things that make you happy - your social life, your fitness efforts, your TV programs, and if either of us can stay awake long enough and doesn't have to catch up on the work we didn't do whilst collecting the kids from school, maybe even some sex. After all - you CHOSE to have a family, you CHOSE to have the career you do, just as much as I did. The day most men accept that, and act on it, is the day that men's expectations will have really changed. It's probably also the day that the divorce-rate reverses.0 -
No.In my view, Dr Laura has it wrong. The problem is that male expectations haven't actually changed. The average male still expects the woman of the house to cook, clean, and provide 99% of childcare, just as his (usually SAHM) mother did.
I disagree with this completely and your entire text is based on this premise.
In my circles of friends, the situation is as follow:
- Men don't expect women to do the chores.
- Women will volunteer more often to do the chores.
Life has changed a lot since our parents...
Also, if you are not happy about this, and because nowadays you have the choice, YOU need to find a man who will accept to do the chores, raise the kids, etc. as much as you do.
Sure it will reduce your dating pool, but what requirement doesn't? The man who wants a woman who does the chores for him either reduces his dating pool to match his requirements or accept to do the chores.
In 1950, you were probably reducing your dating pool to 10% of all men if wanted a man to do the chores with you, so yeah, you had no choice. Today, maybe 50% of the men (number I pulled out of my *kitten*). So it's up to you to decide if you want to compromise on that, or not.
If not, add it to your list of requirements - that's OK, we all have requirements.
TL;DR: it is time to find new friends if all your friends think the chores should be done by women.0 -
No.In my view, Dr Laura has it wrong. The problem is that male expectations haven't actually changed. The average male still expects the woman of the house to cook, clean, and provide 99% of childcare, just as his (usually SAHM) mother did.
I disagree with this completely and your entire text is based on this premise.
In my circles of friends, the situation is as follow:
- Men don't expect women to do the chores.
- Women will volunteer more often to do the chores.
Life has changed a lot since our parents...
Problem is, Florian, I don't think it really has. Perhaps you have a particularly enlightened group of friends, but in more cases than not, in the relationships I see, men either expect the women to do the traditional cleaning/cooking/childcare, or are quite happy to sit back and wait, knowing that if they don't do them, a woman is likely to pick up the slack. "I don't expect you to do it" is a cop-out in my book, if that also means "but I'm not going to take any active, unprompted steps to do it myself, either". Of course there are exceptions, but in general, it seems to me that men want wives/LTP's like their mothers*. As you observe, in most other areas of life, things have changed...
*Inasmuch as their home lives are concerned. Plus all the other things, of course, that many fewer of their mothers did.0 -
Yeah. I just added my TLDR:
No.In my view, Dr Laura has it wrong. The problem is that male expectations haven't actually changed. The average male still expects the woman of the house to cook, clean, and provide 99% of childcare, just as his (usually SAHM) mother did.
I disagree with this completely and your entire text is based on this premise.
In my circles of friends, the situation is as follow:
- Men don't expect women to do the chores.
- Women will volunteer more often to do the chores.
Life has changed a lot since our parents...
Problem is, Florian, I don't think it really has. Perhaps you have a particularly enlightened group of friends, but in more cases than not, in the relationships I see, men either expect the women to do the traditional cleaning/cooking/childcare, or are quite happy to sit back and wait, knowing that if they don't do them, a woman is likely to pick up the slack. "I don't expect you to do it" is a cop-out in my book, if that also means "but I'm not going to take any active, unprompted steps to do it myself, either". Of course there are exceptions, but in general, it seems to me that men want wives/LTP's like their mothers. As you observe, in most other areas of life, things have changed...
"TL;DR: it is time to find new friends if all your friends think the chores should be done by women."
Most of the men I know don't expect this to happen.0 -
See, this is the only debatable thing in my book... The rest is up to who you chose to live with, see, etc.
men are quite happy to sit back and wait, knowing that if they don't do them, a woman is likely to pick up the slack. "I don't expect you to do it" is a cop-out in my book, if that also means "but I'm not going to take any active, unprompted steps to do it myself, either".- Women will volunteer more often to do the chores.
If one has very high standard (or wants lots of salt in their pastas) should they impose their standards to others (put salt in the whole pasta dish), should they lower their expectations (accept that there is going to be less salt in their pastas), or should they live on their own (put salt in their own plate so that they don't bother other people).
Not everyone HAS to comply with your standards.0 -
Also, if you are not happy about this, and because nowadays you have the choice, YOU need to find a man who will accept to do the chores, raise the kids, etc. as much as you do.
Ah, but the point is that it shouldn't even be in question. If you expect me to have a professional job that contributes to our joint finances, with roughly equal hours to yours, then I expect you to commit roughly equal time and effort to the care and maintenance of our family and home. This shouldn't be rocket science. It shouldn't be in any doubt, and I shouldn't need to deliberately seek it out. The onus should not be solely on my shoulders. In that regard, societal expectation needs to change, and still has a LONG way to go. It's well-documented that professional women are working more hours than ever, between professional and family commitments.
For myself, I wouldn't marry a man who wanted a SAHM, knowing that I was going to continue my career, and then complain when his attitude to the care of the home and the children was that they were entirely my domain. I would, however, be decidedly peeved if the man I married, who expected me to maintain my professional path throughout our relationship, then, by direct statement, or by default through his actions, made it clear that the children and our home were entirely or primarily my responsibility, as well as maintaining my career and earning power. As in many things, it's not so much what someone says, as what they actually do when it comes to the crunch, that counts. Too many women are finding that their 'enlightened', 'egalitarian' partners are anything but, when push comes to shove and kids enter the equation.0 -
No.In my view, Dr Laura has it wrong. The problem is that male expectations haven't actually changed. The average male still expects the woman of the house to cook, clean, and provide 99% of childcare, just as his (usually SAHM) mother did.
I disagree with this completely and your entire text is based on this premise.
In my circles of friends, the situation is as follow:
- Men don't expect women to do the chores.
- Women will volunteer more often to do the chores.
Life has changed a lot since our parents...
Problem is, Florian, I don't think it really has. Perhaps you have a particularly enlightened group of friends, but in more cases than not, in the relationships I see, men either expect the women to do the traditional cleaning/cooking/childcare, or are quite happy to sit back and wait, knowing that if they don't do them, a woman is likely to pick up the slack. "I don't expect you to do it" is a cop-out in my book, if that also means "but I'm not going to take any active, unprompted steps to do it myself, either". Of course there are exceptions, but in general, it seems to me that men want wives/LTP's like their mothers*. As you observe, in most other areas of life, things have changed...
*Inasmuch as their home lives are concerned. Plus all the other things, of course, that many fewer of their mothers did.
Uhmm...if this is your circle of life then I am sorry,it is sad.
However the broad generalizations do not apply as for the people I know none seem to be having this dilemma.
As I said before if one or both parties in a relationship are at the point of keeping score for who did what and how important one task is compared to another it is likely there are serious problems on many fronts and this is the easiest way to lash out about them.0 -
See, this is the only debatable thing in my book... The rest is up to who you chose to live with, see, etc.
men are quite happy to sit back and wait, knowing that if they don't do them, a woman is likely to pick up the slack. "I don't expect you to do it" is a cop-out in my book, if that also means "but I'm not going to take any active, unprompted steps to do it myself, either".- Women will volunteer more often to do the chores.
If one has very high standard (or wants lots of salt in their pastas) should they impose their standards to others (put salt in the whole pasta dish), should they lower their expectations (accept that there is going to be less salt in their pastas), or should they live on their own (put salt in their own plate so that they don't bother other people).
Not everyone HAS to comply with your standards.
No, they don't, but there are certain realities of life - people, especially children too young to fend for themselves, have to be fed, or they get sick. If no washing gets done, no-one has any clean clothes to wear, or clean sheets to sleep in - eventually this is going to be a problem, in terms of getting and keeping jobs, if nothing else - the majority of employers expect employees to turn up in clean, ironed clothing that doesn't smell offensively. If no-one wipes the counters/washes the dishes/cleans out the fridge, eventually, someone will get really sick and possibly even die. I'm no neat-freak, but cleaning and cooking are not just about aesthetics... If you're living on your own, that's your risk to take. If you are living with others, you need to consider the risks to them as well, which are inevitably greater with more than one person using a space anyway.0 -
What a crock of *kitten*.
I work 2 jobs, take care of a 7 yr old and handle most all of the household chores, both inside and out. It was the same during my marriage and it won't change much with my next partner.0 -
First of all, she's lumping sex in with chores. There's one problem right there. You're damn right you're expected to be a sex kitten, but we expect you to WANT to have sex with us. You married us after all.
Second, like other people have said the standard of living has changed. Most of my friends that have kids both have full time jobs. A couple of the wives quit working or worked part time until the kids went to school, but both parents working does seem to be the norm these days.
But I never hear anyone complaining that the other one doesn't do anything. If you can't figure out how to split up chores with your spouse than you have some communication problems. If you married a guy who expects you to work but refuses to do any work around the house, well I'm sorry but you're an idiot and you married a lazy *kitten*. And I really don't appreciate this "doctor" claiming that this is the new norm. In my experience, most women claim they enjoy cooking, that's great because I don't. I do enjoy cutting the grass, walking the dog, and fixing stuff.
She makes it sound like the men are sitting on the couch for 6 hours while the women work their hands to the bone. Maybe it's just because women tend to like things cleaner than men do. I'll clean things when they're dirty, if you really feel the floors need scrubbing right this second then do it yourself. That's been my experience at least in the past. I'll plan on watching football on Saturday but she will want to clean the house. So sorry, I'll clean when I feel like it but not while the game is on.0 -
What a crock of *kitten*.
I work 2 jobs, take care of a 7 yr old and handle most all of the household chores, both inside and out. It was the same during my marriage and it won't change much with my next partner.
That's wonderful. :flowerforyou: It's also the experience of a lot of women. But wouldn't you rather your next partner took a more equal role, sharing responsibility more equally and allowing you both to have more time for the fun stuff, together? That's really all most women are looking for - an equal sharing of the load, in all aspects of life.0 -
What a crock of *kitten*.
I work 2 jobs, take care of a 7 yr old and handle most all of the household chores, both inside and out. It was the same during my marriage and it won't change much with my next partner.
That was my exact reaction when I saw the original quote. Who are these men that play video games on the couch while the wife does all the work??? I mean, come on...
--P0 -
As I said,I have no doubt they exist as does the female counterpart but I believe it is far from normal but makes for a good stereotypical man bash.What a crock of *kitten*.
I work 2 jobs, take care of a 7 yr old and handle most all of the household chores, both inside and out. It was the same during my marriage and it won't change much with my next partner.
That was my exact reaction when I saw the original quote. Who are these men that play video games on the couch while the wife does all the work??? I mean, come on...
--P0 -
As I said,I have no doubt they exist as does the female counterpart but I believe it is far from normal but makes for a good stereotypical man bash.What a crock of *kitten*.
I work 2 jobs, take care of a 7 yr old and handle most all of the household chores, both inside and out. It was the same during my marriage and it won't change much with my next partner.
That was my exact reaction when I saw the original pquote. Who are these men that play video games on the couch while the wife does all the work??? I mean, come on...
--P
Substitute in anything else like watching football, watching pawn stars, fiddling around the garage, working out, at the bar watching the game with the boys...
Not all men are like that but I think many are.0
This discussion has been closed.