12 Steps... Impossible for Atheists?

kimimila86

I know the answer is no, it's not impossible... here it goes!

I'm new to the group :flowerforyou: and I also have an issue with food. I love to eat it! I love to eat it so much that I've joined Overeaters Anonymous, which also uses the 12 Steps for Alcoholics Anonymous. I like the first step so far, but I've hesitated going further into the program due to the second step: giving in to a higher power. I can't do that. There seems to be no way around it.

Has anyone else in this group done the 12 steps for some sort of addiction and succeeded as an atheist? I think the underlying principles are good, but this is a bump in the road to me...

perfekta

Good post. I've wondered the same thing. I looked into it, but ran up against the same problem.

RiverManUK

You could try an agnostics 12 steps that I found with a quick google.

1. We accept the fact that all of our efforts to stop drinking have failed.

2. We believe that we must turn elsewhere for help.

3. We turn to our fellow men and women, particularly those who have struggled with the same problem.

4. We have made a list of the situations in which we are most likely to drink.

5. We ask our friends to help us avoid those situations.

6. We are ready to accept the help they give us.

7. We earnestly hope that they will help.

8. We have made a list of the persons we have harmed and to whom we hope to make amends.

9. We shall do all we can to make amends, in any way which will not cause further harm.

10. We will continue to make such list and revise them as needed.

11. We appreciate what our friends have done and are doing to help us.

12. We, in turn, are ready to help others who may come to us in the same way.

kimimila86

Thanks for the agnostic 12 step list @RiverManUK! I prefer this list, but replacing the word god throughout the second step is going to be annoying... oh well. It's only 8 pages long! :laugh:

TMLPatrick

Not only is AA geared toward christians and producing *more* christians... it is openly hostile toward anyone who questions its effectiveness and refuses to subject its methods to scientific studies. The whole anti-alcohol movement is rife with so much pseudoscience that it is really difficult to determine what the real science is....

http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/general/bldef_alcoholicsanonymous.htm

kimimila86

I noticed that, @TMLPatrick... someone mentioned to me that there is a chapter to Agnostics in the AA manual. I was a little intrigued as to what it would say. DISAPPOINTMENT! Basically 14 pages of why you should believe in a god or higher power and that you essentially cannot be successful without this step. :huh:

I can't lie to myself! :grumble:

soldier4242

I know the answer is no, it's not impossible... here it goes!

I'm new to the group :flowerforyou: and I also have an issue with food. I love to eat it! I love to eat it so much that I've joined Overeaters Anonymous, which also uses the 12 Steps for Alcoholics Anonymous. I like the first step so far, but I've hesitated going further into the program due to the second step: giving in to a higher power. I can't do that. There seems to be no way around it.

Has anyone else in this group done the 12 steps for some sort of addiction and succeeded as an atheist? I think the underlying principles are good, but this is a bump in the road to me...

Actually the answer is yes it is impossible for an atheist to do the 12 step program that you are talking about. If step 2 is giving in to a higher power then you would have to believe that higher power actually exists in order to give in to it. If you don't believe that it exists it is logically impossible to give yourself over to it. If you do believe that the higher power exists and then give yourself over to it then you have successfully completed the second step but you at the time stopped being an atheist. Basically an atheist can't get past their second step it is logically impossible.

StheK

Not only is AA geared toward christians and producing *more* christians... it is openly hostile toward anyone who questions its effectiveness and refuses to subject its methods to scientific studies. The whole anti-alcohol movement is rife with so much pseudoscience that it is really difficult to determine what the real science is....

http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/general/bldef_alcoholicsanonymous.htm

Which is a terrible shame because it detracts from the actual science of addiction, and the treatment thereof. Having worked for a county drug and alcohol department for several years, it was painful to watch.

soldier4242

Not only is AA geared toward christians and producing *more* christians... it is openly hostile toward anyone who questions its effectiveness and refuses to subject its methods to scientific studies. The whole anti-alcohol movement is rife with so much pseudoscience that it is really difficult to determine what the real science is....

http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/general/bldef_alcoholicsanonymous.htm

In fact that second step not only confirms the actual intent of AA I would go so far as to say that the second step make it unconstitutional for the courts to mandate attendance. Submitting yourself to a higher power should never be court mandates.

I am also in complete disagreement with the obligation the group puts upon its members to say that they are powerless to fix the problem without this higher power. For starters I think that is a huge load of bull but in addition I think that it is a degrading thing to say to its members.

halflife1978

I tried to go to an OA meeting a few months ago and there was just way too much Jesus in it for me, but that could just be because of where I live.

They try to give lip service to being open to everyone but I think that it is a hook 'em and save 'em tactic that isn't even done very well. Most of what I've read online from members has been quite condescending ("You could make that DOORKNOB your higher power, you just have to HAVE one.") and anyway, the idea that we are weak and need to be fixed from the outside is extremely offputting to me.

I was sad about it because I really wanted to find a support group of people in real life that I could relate to, but that isn't going to be it.

soldier4242

I have heard the line about how your higher could be anything. The issue that I take with that is that it isn't true. If I were to say that my higher power is a doorknob then I would at the very least be viewed as a crazy person. Unless I am lying about believing that it is a door knob which I am sure is a not acceptable. I would have to honestly believe that this doorknob is a power greater than myself. It is capable of great and wondrous things far beyond myself.

Since a doorknob is an inanimate object it does not have agency. AA is insisting that a person attribute agency to an inanimate object. The reason that they insist upon this step I think is because it is a short jump from that to simply accepting their story about the invisible god that they already worship. The creators of AA don't want people getting over their addictions without some sort of religious faith when they are done.

placeboaddiction

sorry.

halflife1978

I've tried to go along with the God thing in my own household but the cognitive dissonance was deafening and I just had to make that a topic that we don't talk about and my husband can walk his path while I walk mine.

When I went to the OA meeting in Plano it was so religiously oriented that I felt like a complete outsider. It wasn't that I didn't understand where they were coming from, or that I felt like I needed to make a statement. I don't try to evangelize my non-belief so it's not a case of trying to fight for it. I have come to the conclusion a long time ago that many people work on a level of God-default and others work on a level of No God-default and there is really not a way to combine the two, unless you just don't care. But I do.

I think that trying to follow these particular steps for the sake of the steps is counterproductive to being honest with ourselves, which is where I believe the motivation to change really comes from.

(This was a reply to the above comment that's been deleted suggesting that maybe we should just go along with it since it's part of the steps)

ohenry78

I have heard the line about how your higher could be anything. The issue that I take with that is that it isn't true. If I were to say that my higher power is a doorknob then I would at the very least be viewed as a crazy person. Unless I am lying about believing that it is a door knob which I am sure is a not acceptable. I would have to honestly believe that this doorknob is a power greater than myself. It is capable of great and wondrous things far beyond myself.

Since a doorknob is an inanimate object it does not have agency. AA is insisting that a person attribute agency to an inanimate object. The reason that they insist upon this step I think is because it is a short jump from that to simply accepting their story about the invisible god that they already worship. The creators of AA don't want people getting over their addictions without some sort of religious faith when they are done.

This is kind of an interesting topic -- the "higher power" idea. Like the rest of us here, I don't much care for the idea of "submitting" to a god or some other inanimate object.

But maybe instead of a figure (god) or an object (a doorknob), we could submit to a concept?

We've had threads in the past discussing how thinking about the universe, and its vastness, really puts things into perspective as it relates to our place in things, and how god does (or does not, more accurately) fit into this.

On the surface, it seems there would be room for submitting to the idea of the smallness of our problems in relation to all the vastness and all the goings-on in the universe. Why does my drinking matter? How problematic are the issues that are causing me to drink, when compared to this?

I haven't had a chance to think on this on all sides, but it seems like something I could do. Not "submitting", per se, and definitely not to a "higher power". But realizing that we are...small, as are our problems, in the larger scale of things.

soldier4242

This is kind of an interesting topic -- the "higher power" idea. Like the rest of us here, I don't much care for the idea of "submitting" to a god or some other inanimate object.

But maybe instead of a figure (god) or an object (a doorknob), we could submit to a concept?

We've had threads in the past discussing how thinking about the universe, and its vastness, really puts things into perspective as it relates to our place in things, and how god does (or does not, more accurately) fit into this.

On the surface, it seems there would be room for submitting to the idea of the smallness of our problems in relation to all the vastness and all the goings-on in the universe. Why does my drinking matter? How problematic are the issues that are causing me to drink, when compared to this?

I haven't had a chance to think on this on all sides, but it seems like something I could do. Not "submitting", per se, and definitely not to a "higher power". But realizing that we are...small, as are our problems, in the larger scale of things.

When it comes to helping an atheist or anyone with a drinking problem I think the best course of action would be to try and get to the bottom of why they feel the need to drink in the first place. Solving those problems could be enough to get the person on the straight and narrow right there.

Now understand for it to be a drinking problem they have to be consuming enough to actually impact their life and/or their health. If it has no impact on any of that then I would say they are drinking responsibly.

So we are talking about someone who is suffering some sort of negative consequences from their drinking. It has gotten to the point where people are actually having to get involved in order to prevent any further damage. I think it would be very productive if they could acknowledge the fact that their drinking is having a negative impact. If they have demonstrated that they can't be trusted to avoid drinking on their own if they would be willing to have someone with them at all time to help keep them accountable that would be an effective bandage to get past the first phase which would be the hardest part.

I think it would be effective for them to learn how to become more disciplined. There are techniques that have been used with great success all over the country in multiple different industries.

At no point do I ever think it would be a good idea to tell a person that he or she is powerless to stop drinking and that they would have to submit to a higher power. I don't see any harm in acknowledging how small we are in the universe but I don't see that as submission to anything that is simply observing an empirical fact.

gdburk1

I see this is an old thread but I just had to put my two cents worth out there. I went to OA years ago, had some mild success and at the time actually did believe in God ( or thought I did ). I tried it again more recently having forgotten about how God-centric it was. It did however, help me to see all the time and years I wasted beating myself up for not having enough faith or for not fully submitting myself to God. I truly believed that I was overweight because I was a spiritual failure.

Now, I declare myself an atheist. Life is easier. I'm overweight because I've not had healthy eating habits. I can change that. Letting go of that religious guilt is an amazing thing. Instead of letting guilt overtake me for not having eaten the perfect food (whatever that is!) that day, I am free to choose what I do or do not put in my mouth. That's it. It's my responsibility and only I can fix the problems. No more ugly thoughts that I deserve this fate because I'm a bad and sinful person. I'm just a person, like all the others, and some days I make good food choices and on others I don't. It seems so much easier now.

toutmonpossible

Related: The efficacy of the 12 Step program has been questioned for groups other than atheists. The feminist critique of it is that it asks women to surrender their power when they already have so little and need to be building agency, not giving it up.

You might want to look into a 12 Step program for Buddhists. Certain aspects of Buddhism are very compatible with Atheism: The Buddha did not claim to be a god, just an individual fully awakened to reality. I've seen meditation groups that combine 12 Step with Buddhism.

Here's a link to a description of a meeting that is offered by the New York Insight Meditation Center.

Addiction & Recovery: The Buddha & Bill W

http://nyimc.org/event/addiction-recovery-the-buddha-bill-w-2/

toutmonpossible

It's my responsibility and only I can fix the problems. No more ugly thoughts that I deserve this fate because I'm a bad and sinful person. I'm just a person, like all the others, and some days I make good food choices and on others I don't. It seems so much easier now.

I practice (or am interested in) secular Buddhism, and am no expert, but what you've said is very in line with the Buddhist approach to life. You're not a bad person,* you don't need to be "fixed," but if you take the time to really know yourself through meditation, including showing yourself-compassion, and follow basic, pragmatic principles of life you will cause yourself less suffering. The weight loss will be a side effect.

*I always wonder how this applies to bona fide psychopaths. But whatever.

soldier4242

Related: The efficacy of the 12 Step program has been questioned for groups other than atheists. The feminist critique of it is that it asks women to surrender their power when they already have so little and need to be building agency, not giving it up.

You might want to look into a 12 Step program for Buddhists. Certain aspects of Buddhism are very compatible with Atheism: The Buddha did not claim to be a god, just an individual fully awakened to reality. I've seen meditation groups that combine 12 Step with Buddhism.

Here's a link to a description of a meeting that is offered by the New York Insight Meditation Center.

Addiction & Recovery: The Buddha & Bill W

http://nyimc.org/event/addiction-recovery-the-buddha-bill-w-2/

Well the Buddhists do not claim that there is a god so there is one thing that we agree upon. I have some issues with the concept of fate but that idea is not ubiquitous in all followers of Buddhism. I do tend to get along better with Buddhists then I do with Christians. If I ever get addicted to something that is negatively affecting my life I'll give the Buddhists a shot.

toutmonpossible

Related: The efficacy of the 12 Step program has been questioned for groups other than atheists. The feminist critique of it is that it asks women to surrender their power when they already have so little and need to be building agency, not giving it up.

You might want to look into a 12 Step program for Buddhists. Certain aspects of Buddhism are very compatible with Atheism: The Buddha did not claim to be a god, just an individual fully awakened to reality. I've seen meditation groups that combine 12 Step with Buddhism.

Here's a link to a description of a meeting that is offered by the New York Insight Meditation Center.

Addiction & Recovery: The Buddha & Bill W

http://nyimc.org/event/addiction-recovery-the-buddha-bill-w-2/

Well the Buddhists do not claim that there is a god so there is one thing that we agree upon. I have some issues with the concept of fate but that idea is not ubiquitous in all followers of Buddhism. I do tend to get along better with Buddhists then I do with Christians. If I ever get addicted to something that is negatively affecting my life I'll give the Buddhists a shot.

I only follow Secular Buddhism. I read a discussion in a meditation forum suggesting that "Secular Buddhism" was something of an oxymoron. I like smart Buddhists who are capable of critical thought. Sometimes the people in the other forum are exhausting. They'll mention someone in a bad situation who really needs help and ask people to send "metta" or sometimes they say "prayers" their way. How is that going to help? I feel tempted to say that studies have shown that praying does not help people recover. The skill of the doctor and the state of the person's constitution do.

spookiefox

I know the answer is no, it's not impossible... here it goes!

I'm new to the group :flowerforyou: and I also have an issue with food. I love to eat it! I love to eat it so much that I've joined Overeaters Anonymous, which also uses the 12 Steps for Alcoholics Anonymous. I like the first step so far, but I've hesitated going further into the program due to the second step: giving in to a higher power. I can't do that. There seems to be no way around it.

Has anyone else in this group done the 12 steps for some sort of addiction and succeeded as an atheist? I think the underlying principles are good, but this is a bump in the road to me...

I kinda disagree that the 12 steps are possible for atheists. More importantly, I have doubts that the 12 steps are the best way to deal with overeating OR alcohol abuse. For starters, how is admitting powerlessness, especially if you don't believe in a higher power, going to help you gain control?

There is no real agreement in the medical and psychological communities that the 12 steps are the most effective treatment for alcoholism, and even less agreement that any success it has in that area translates into effectiveness for anything else. If you are already hesitant at step 2, perhaps you should look at other things.

You say you "love to eat" food. Why is this even necessarily a problem?

TMLPatrick

There is no real agreement in the medical and psychological communities that the 12 steps are the most effective treatment for alcoholism, and even less agreement that any success it has in that area translates into effectiveness for anything else. If you are already hesitant at step 2, perhaps you should look at other things.

This is my biggest complaint with the 12-steps, there's absolutely no evidence to support it and somehow it became the de-facto rehab program.

spookiefox

There is no real agreement in the medical and psychological communities that the 12 steps are the most effective treatment for alcoholism, and even less agreement that any success it has in that area translates into effectiveness for anything else. If you are already hesitant at step 2, perhaps you should look at other things.

This is my biggest complaint with the 12-steps, there's absolutely no evidence to support it and somehow it became the de-facto rehab program.

Fortunately I think it is becoming less so. There are many more options than there used to be, and I really do believe the 12 steps are impossible for an atheist.

BinaryPulsar

I've never gone to an addiction group. But, I have done the support groups such as alanon (many years ago, when I was younger). I didn't need to follow all the steps because I was not dealing with an addiction. So, I followed some of the steps such as making an amends. And other steps in a more secular Buddhist way (as mentioned above). But, I did not strictly follow all the steps. I skipped ones that did not apply. The group was flexible and supportive because they understood what I was dealing with and had similiar experiences. It was free. It's not something I would do now. But, I went because of the suggestion by my husband (he's a scientist) because he had a good experience with alateen when he was a teenager.

ILoveMyHotFatBody

I went to an OA meeting and the feeling I got was that there was a division in the group: Christians in one corner, atheists in another. When an atheist went in front of the room to speak, she said, "I use the word 'God' because it's shorter than 'Higher Power as I understand it,'" and it was met with snorts of disapproval and appreciative snickers. I found it interesting.

PickleballDink

My $.02, I've started going to a 12-step alternative called SMART Recovery. It has been very helpful and supportive. Here are the main points from the website.
1: Building and Maintaining Motivation
2: Coping with Urges
3: Managing Thoughts, Feelings and Behaviors
4: Living a Balanced Life

AllieBear88

Thanks for the agnostic list! I had only seen the "higher power" one!

AllieBear88

I just realized how old this thread is! LOL!

T1DCarnivoreRunner

Yes, old thread, but still relevant.

I remember seeing an article a few weeks ago about an atheist group in Des Moines that Alcoholics Anonymous will not allow to be a part of the official AA organization. This means that it is difficult for potential new members to find the group (because it is not listed on the AA calendar and group list) and there is a very small following.

AA's reason for not letting that group join is that they do not follow the 12 steps EXACTLY as it is spelled out in the book that their group is based upon. In other words, the atheist group changed the verbiage from "Higher Power" to something more innocuous. I will have to find the article in the Des Moines Register and post the link later when I have a chance.

T1DCarnivoreRunner

Here's the link: http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/opinion/2015/02/05/aa-list-nonreligious-group-meetings/22963285/#_=_

soldier4242

I admit that I find it a bit odd that a group of people would be so dogmatic that they would rather let another group of people go unnoticed rather than letting them help out people in their own way. Since courts do force people to attend AA I am not sure if they count as a private organization or a public one.

If they are a public organization then they should not be allowed to include religious terminology in their doctrines at all.

If they are a private organization then they can be as religious as they like and they can exclude anyone that they want but they would not be allowed to receive government funding and I would think that forcing people to take part in their religious activities would be an unconstitutional violation of their rights.