Coupon Faux Pas?
Replies
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There are stages in dating.
:yawn:
IMO if you date in stages you're always going to hit the "break up stage"
Well of course, most likely, most guys I date will hit the break up stage. All except for 1 lucky one.
Whether you recognize it or not, there are stages. Attraction/ meeting, dating, exclusivity, break up or if both want to- engagement, then marriage.. no?0 -
There are stages in dating.
:yawn:
IMO if you date in stages you're always going to hit the "break up stage"
Well of course, most likely, most guys I date will hit the break up stage. All except for 1 lucky one.
Whether you recognize it or not, there are stages. Attraction/ meeting, dating, exclusivity, break up or if both want to- engagement, then marriage.. no?
Sure if you want to turn your love life into a bureaucracy with deadlines, obligations and expectations. You can cut anything up anyway you want to, but I don't think you should ditch someone because on your map of a relationship they haven't done or said ____ yet.0 -
I have to agree with these as well and also say that I would be really turned off by a guy who brings me gifts when I just met him. Trying to buy a girl's affection? That's not going to work on me. Paying with $100 bills would also be.... odd. Most people use plastic these days, so that would seem like a deliberate tactic and not very genuine. If there's a second date or more, it's going to look funny when he has to confess that he borrowed someone's car and lied about his job. I don't like liars.There is a thing called "class" and any guy that has it isn't going to wear sweats and then *kitten* them to top it off on a date. What I'm talking about is things out of character that a guy is going to do just to impress you. Like borrowing his friends awesome car to take you out, or exaggerating his job, bringing you gifts, agreeing with everything you say, paying with $100 dollar bills.
The impress me attitude is going to make people naturally over compensate leading to a lot of bs that eventually they won't be able to sustain.
See, with these examples you used here, I agree. And I'd say a fella like that was a player, complete fraud, and I'd probably never date him again. But coupons in the beginning, IMO, is completely different.
I equate this more with the example of dressing nicely for the first date and progressing to flip-flops, sweats and a T-shirt later while hanging out watching movies on the couch. Coupons are like sweatpants!0 -
Depends on the person. If I was on a date and could tell a girl was incredibly frugal and prided herself on being so I would go to the bathroom and load up a coupon JUST to impress her ROFL.0
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I think the point about getting creative with what you have is important here. A cheap first date involving a walk somewhere nice, coffee/frozen yogurt/ free museum I'd be down for, but a restaurant that someone needs a coupon to afford- not so down for. Being creative involves thought and lets someone know you value their potential, but just picking somewhere because you have a coupon messages "I'm kind of lazy about planning this and don't want to waste money in case you suck"
I don't see anything wrong wih that. Nearly every post in here about online dating talks about all the bad dates and how people are rarely how they present themselves in their profiles and preliminary messages. There is a high probability that you will suck.
Lol- point taken. My optimism tries to cancel out the reality of suckiness.0 -
Can't figure out how I feel about coupons. I am not cheap..not even frugal..so it would not be something I would ever do. I also tend to like people similar to myself..so that might be an indicator we are not going to click.
Part of me wants to say "I am f'ing worth full price cheapass", but then again I always offer to pay on a date anyway (and mean it!), and one of the best dates I ever went on was when we just rode around on a public bus..got on and off to do stupid things such as jumping in a fountain..and then made out. A lot. Lol. I was young. Well honestly I would still do that now.
Money doesn't impress me...but if I got that icky "he's cheap and mean" feeling ...there wouldn't be a second date.0 -
Not sure if this was directed at strictly women, but I will give it a go.
I would let a woman take me out and use a coupon.
And I would laugh hysterically as she dug in her purse to find it.
I find quirky or weird things attractive, I interpret being a couponeer as being "quirky".
Please, I understand you can save lots of money with coupons, not starting an argument.
TLDR: I would think it is hilarious, or even "cute".0 -
Not sure if this was directed at strictly women, but I will give it a go.
I would let a woman take me out and use a coupon.
And I would laugh hysterically as she dug in her purse to find it.
I find quirky or weird things attractive, I interpret being a couponeer as being "quirky".
Please, I understand you can save lots of money with coupons, not starting an argument.
TLDR: I would think it is hilarious, or even "cute".
Ooh...new thread! Quirky things that are attractive and/or turn you on..0 -
Sorry, but for me, dating starts with impressing me.
Thinking like this is why so many guys lie and BS you gals. In fact this actually make it easier for the bad guys to look good.
Agree with Poncho!
No.
While I appreciate the position of "be yourself, don't try to over-impress," I do think the key word there is "over". Ladies take a lot of time to prepare for dates. They try to look nice (makeup, hair, nice outfit, etc.), they try to make a good impression. They expect the guy to do the same. It means you appreciate them, you're willing to do a bit extra for them.
I dress very casually when I'm at home, I don't shower every day, I don't shave. Does that mean I should wear a pair of dirty jeans and go out on a first date with 2-day stubble, just to show her how I really am? "Hey, this is me, no BS, baby!"
When you use a coupon on date #1, you are sending the wrong signal. You are saying, "I don't respect you enough to try to make a good first impression."
I'm not saying ditch your 94 Toyota Corolla and rent a Ferrari for the night. I am saying clean out your 94 Corolla. Get those old McDonald's wrappers out of the back seat! See the difference?
Final point: while I enjoy a good debate as much as the next person, on some things, it really makes sense to defer to what the ladies are saying, full stop. If the question is, "Does God exist?" then it really makes no difference if you're a man or woman. We all have opinions, we can share them equally.
However, if the topic is, "What do women think about men using coupons on the first date?" then clearly we need to listen to the actual *women* in this discussion. And from what I've read so far, it's probably not a good idea to use a coupon on the first date if you want to impress a woman.
If, on the other hand, you men here would like to ask Poncho out (seems like a nice guy), then by all means use a coupon...
--P0 -
I for one wouldn't ever use a coupon on a date but I hear what poncho is saying. People in here often seem to have too many rules and or ideals. But what I think poncho is saying is that, it might a bit quick for the guy to be written off just cause he used a coupon. Too bad if he's a loyal, genuine, good looking guy and heaven forbid he used a coupon. I'd say stop being so damn precious to the ladies and get over yourselves.0
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This post also nicely demonstrates how men and women think so differently about so many things, such as a simple coupon. At least as it relates to a relationship.
Men are simple. When we hear coupon, we think "money." With a coupon, it's cheaper. Without a coupon, it's more expensive. Simple. Direct. Logical.
But in Lady-ville, logic like that is irrelevant. It's not about the money, but, as with just about everything in a relationship, it's about them. Or, rather, how we treat them, how we respect them, how we *appreciate* them. It has nothing to do with the money!
We think, "I'm not so rich, I need to save every penny, a coupon is cheaper, ergo, I should logically use it." They think, "He doesn't appreciate me enough to try to make a good first impression!" Money never figures in their analysis of that situation.
This, btw, applies to just about every seemingly innocuous discussion with a woman. Other examples:
You forget to pick up milk at the supermarket, even though it was on her list. Man logic: "Oh well, sorry, we'll just have to have eggs instead of cereal tomorrow morning." Woman logic: "It was on the list! You don't appreciate me enough to check the list while in the store!"
Your important client meeting runs over by 20 minutes, so you're 10 minutes late for the movie. Man logic: "Oh well, I guess we'll miss the useless opening advertisements and movie trailers." Woman logic: "Your work is more important than me! You don't appreciate me enough!"
Etc., etc. Works for just about any situation. No sense in fighting this one, guys. Just understand it and bend, like the proverbial Buddhist tree in the wind.
--P0 -
I agree with most of the things you said, and that generally speaking you don't score any points for using a coupon.*snip*
--P
I still think the coupon thing is (in the grand scheme of things) not that important, and that ,while most ladies (I also notice that not all women have said that here!) would let you believe it is extremely bad here, in writing, when sitting in front of the computer - which on a side note is ladies being logical for you, and not emotional as you agreed they would normally be in real life - at the end of the day it will matter for 1% in the final decision of whether or not you are a good date or not.
Well. It depends on the kind of girls you're going after. I would imagine a gold digger/high maintenance girl would immediately write me off if I was getting a coupon out of my underpants (not really interested in them tbh). Most girls though won't write you off as this isn't a deal breaker for them. But yes, again you will probably be scoring any point.
Although...
Although you can transform pretty much anything into a positive, or a not-negative at the very least, by delivering it correctly (being humorous, witty or clever about it, including the coupon thing).
Because the overall weight women (and people in general) give to wittiness is worth more than one coupon (unless you are a coupon hunter).
To be clearer, I'd rather be with "someone who used 1 coupon (1 time action) and is witty (quality)" than with "someone who never used a single coupon of their life but isn't witty".
For example, as you said just relate everything you do (including the coupon thing) to how you appreciate them, how you feel they are special.
E.g.:
- Coupon means another date with you in the future.
- Coupon means we can go for an extra drink after this meal, so we can talk longer... Hope you have time...
- Coupon means you can eat more, I think you're too thin (wink wink).
- I have kept this coupon for a year and now I get to use it on this special occasion... (serious deep voice) with you! (wink wink)
- Thanks to my coupon (*shows coupon like they show products in advertisement*) I'm saving towards buying you a massive diamond ring for our future marriage. Maybe. If we survive this first date. *laughs*
At this point, you've made what would be a normally "awkward" moment a "fun" moment, and created material on which you can bounce back later (If the next time you bring a coupon: "Ok, so my calculations tell me that... At this rate... We have only 5,937 dates to go and you will get your diamond ring! Jesus. Maybe I should get a job and get out of my mum's basement actually.. Hmmmm. Wait. Am I a nerd? Really?").
I would avoid bringing a coupon to every date, that's for sure.
Unless you are a "coupon hunter" in which case I'd probably be upfront about it at some point anyway (and funnily enough try to hide it and be ashamed about it on the first dates because I know it is one of my flaws). If that is a deal breaker for the girl, then sure she should know about it at some point. Some coupon-hunter girls would be perfectly happy with a coupon-hunter guy and they could spend their Sunday afternoon doing coupon hunting together (*yawns*).
The thing is I personally don't have any "coupon related" behaviour I'm trying to hide, so I can come up with a funny thing to say on the few occasions I'm going to use a coupon. I guess the "guilt ridden coupon hunter" will try to hide it...
That said if you ask any lady to imagine their perfect man BUT he uses coupons on every date, I'm sure most girls would still be ready to compromise on that and choose that man over hundreds.
Also if you have scored a grand total of 0 points for the night (to impress the girl) and use a coupon and ask to split the bill, you will still be at 0 points (at which point you're probably better off getting your coupon out anyway! :laugh: ).
Fundamentally, what you want to avoid at all costs during a date is:
- Awkwardness
- Loss of control
If you can mitigate whatever you do and avoid awkwardness and loss of control then you're good and can get away with pretty much anything.
TL;DR: spit on the lady's face on the first date and clean her with your coupon. They will love you for that. (<= never trust a TL;DR if you haven't read what's above)0 -
OMG. I think I laid an egg (i.e. the previous post). :laugh:0
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- Thanks to my coupon (*shows coupon like they show products in advertisement*) I'm saving towards buying you a massive diamond ring for our future marriage. Maybe. If we survive this first date. *laughs*
At this point, you've made what would be a normally "awkward" moment a "fun" moment, and created material on which you can bounce back later...
I think you've just made an awkward moment a completely unsalvageable moment. On the bright side, you can probably save your coupon, as my guess is she's out the door before you complete your order.
--P0 -
But in Lady-ville, logic like that is irrelevant. It's not about the money, but, as with just about everything in a relationship, it's about them. Or, rather, how we treat them, how we respect them, how we *appreciate* them. It has nothing to do with the money!
--P
Yes it is sort of about the woman in her thinking. I know for at least me, I don't usually use coupons, unless it is something expensive. When on a date with a guy I am usually looking for someone that is equal to me financially. So if I see a guy using a bogo coupon at a smoothie shop I will be turned off. If the same guy used one for an event, or something I wouldn't be turned off. If a guy took me to one of the mid priced places for a 2 for 20 on a first date I probably would judge as well because that would be limiting my choices and I always offer to pay for my dinner.
Also realize that most women don't think in absolutes like it has been suggested on this forum, we think more on the terms of pros vs cons. If a guy uses a coupon but meets whatever criteria the woman has for looks, personality, how he treats us we will more than likely over look the coupon.0 -
Well... I would imagine we are dating different kind of girls and I can perfectly understand that the girls you are more interested in dating would react like this (if you factor in the mood you set for the date as well).
I think you've just made an awkward moment a completely unsalvageable moment. On the bright side, you can probably save your coupon, as my guess is she's out the door before you complete your order.- Thanks to my coupon (*shows coupon like they show products in advertisement*) I'm saving towards buying you a massive diamond ring for our future marriage. Maybe. If we survive this first date. *laughs*
At this point, you've made what would be a normally "awkward" moment a "fun" moment, and created material on which you can bounce back later...
--P
But you (as you don't technically need to use the voucher) could still potentially use the voucher and say you do it to scare off gold diggers: they run away when you get your voucher out on the date. Tell that to the girl and explain you're not a voucher person but you've had a few gold diggers in your life in the past, etc. and then offer her a dessert (without a voucher or a glass of wine, etc.). :laugh:0 -
- Thanks to my coupon (*shows coupon like they show products in advertisement*) I'm saving towards buying you a massive diamond ring for our future marriage. Maybe. If we survive this first date. *laughs*
At this point, you've made what would be a normally "awkward" moment a "fun" moment, and created material on which you can bounce back later...
I think you've just made an awkward moment a completely unsalvageable moment. On the bright side, you can probably save your coupon, as my guess is she's out the door before you complete your order.
--P
Why is there not a tumbleweed icon on here? I'd be gone so fast even the dust would have dissipated. Too much, too soon, unless I was looking for a comedian!
As far as coupon-use goes, I think it all depends on the presentation. If someone said to me in the planning stages of a date "I've got a voucher for a really great restaurant/play/other activity. Would you like to try it out with me?" or words to that effect, then, provided we are talking about a proper restaurant etc and not McDonalds (or equivalent), I wouldn't have a problem with that. (NB. I'd object to McDonalds on a date/any outing, voucher or not, unless it was the only source of sustenance for miles! If that's what he can afford (and he won't let me contribute to the cost of the date), I'd rather a little ingenuity/imagination/thought was applied - I'm perfectly happy to go on a 'free' date with a person I like, or split the bill (I'd certainly always offer). If that's what he really wants, then we aren't a match anyway.)
If, on the other hand, I was blindsided at the end of a meal by someone pulling out a voucher, I'd be embarrassed and concerned that he was stretching himself financially on my behalf, or felt that he had to spend more than he could afford (and perhaps might be a little worried that he was pretending to be someone he's not). If it's a spur-of-the-moment sort of thing - we're on a walk, and stop for a smoothie/coffee/whatever - and someone (might well be me!) happens to have a voucher in their purse/wallet, then why not use it? That wouldn't bother me in the least.
Edited to add: Actually, I probably wouldn't be out the door - it'd feel too impolite - but you'd have a LOT of ground to make up. More so than if you'd just gone ahead and used the voucher without making a production of it.0 -
Which is exactly my point...- Thanks to my coupon (*shows coupon like they show products in advertisement*) I'm saving towards buying you a massive diamond ring for our future marriage. Maybe. If we survive this first date. *laughs*
At this point, you've made what would be a normally "awkward" moment a "fun" moment, and created material on which you can bounce back later...
I think you've just made an awkward moment a completely unsalvageable moment. On the bright side, you can probably save your coupon, as my guess is she's out the door before you complete your order.
--P
Why is there not a tumbleweed icon on here? I'd be gone so fast even the dust would have dissipated. Too much, too soon, unless I was looking for a comedian!
As far as coupon-use goes, I think it all depends on the presentation.
While this specific "presentation" didn't work for you (which is fine), there are about one million ways to sell a voucher to someone.
So my point still stands, the problem isn't in the voucher itself but in the delivery and the mood you set for the date, and that the man during the date needs to avoid awkwardness and loss of control (by choosing the right delivery and changing the mood accordingly).
Moreover, that is wrong to say the woman would run away.
That is a very one sided perspective. As in: "As a male, I am desperately shaking my arms to convince the woman to choose me".
In fact most women during dates will play along (again if you set the right mood) in order to create a connection. You cannot create a connection if you are dismissive of any attempt at "connecting" from the person sitting in front of you.
Women during dates are in fact trying to convince me that they are the right person too, so it gives you a lot of latitude to do this kind of things (they won't just run away for a minor thing such as this, and this event will be quickly overlooked - although you might not score points as I've said earlier).
Again, while sitting in front of a computer, it is easy to dismiss this, but when you have a real person smiling in front of you, in flesh and blood (and skin), you will just play along and not run away, unless you feel there is a major incompatibility you've detected earlier.0 -
Wowzer!! Are we still talking about coupons!!! :laugh: :laugh:0
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OMG. I think I laid an egg (i.e. the previous post). :laugh:
You're not kiddin baby!!!! :laugh: :laugh:0 -
You forget to pick up milk at the supermarket, even though it was on her list. Man logic: "Oh well, sorry, we'll just have to have eggs instead of cereal tomorrow morning." Woman logic: "It was on the list! You don't appreciate me enough to check the list while in the store!"
OMG!!! Do you really think that we are THAT emotionally irrational???? :noway: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :noway:
If you told me you forgot the milk P, I'd say "no worries babe, I'll pop up the road and get some - would you like anything else?"
Although I do know that 'some' women equate everything to how much a man loves her, but those women are kinda crazy or very, very hormonal!! :flowerforyou:0 -
You forget to pick up milk at the supermarket, even though it was on her list. Man logic: "Oh well, sorry, we'll just have to have eggs instead of cereal tomorrow morning." Woman logic: "It was on the list! You don't appreciate me enough to check the list while in the store!"
OMG!!! Do you really think that we are THAT emotionally irrational???? :noway: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :noway:
If you told me you forgot the milk P, I'd say "no worries babe, I'll pop up the road and get some - would you like anything else?"
Although I do know that 'some' women equate everything to how much a man loves her, but those women are kinda crazy or very, very hormonal!! :flowerforyou:
See, the first part of the logic makes sense to me... It was on the list... And I'm assuming you can read because you got the other things on the list. Of course I wouldn't attack a guy for it. The fact that the guy would go to the supermarket for me tells me that he cares, and is trying.
So I don't think that most women would think that meant you didn't appreciate them.0 -
You forget to pick up milk at the supermarket, even though it was on her list. Man logic: "Oh well, sorry, we'll just have to have eggs instead of cereal tomorrow morning." Woman logic: "It was on the list! You don't appreciate me enough to check the list while in the store!"
OMG!!! Do you really think that we are THAT emotionally irrational???? :noway: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :noway:
If you told me you forgot the milk P, I'd say "no worries babe, I'll pop up the road and get some - would you like anything else?"
Although I do know that 'some' women equate everything to how much a man loves her, but those women are kinda crazy or very, very hormonal!! :flowerforyou:
See, the first part of the logic makes sense to me... It was on the list... And I'm assuming you can read because you got the other things on the list. Of course I wouldn't attack a guy for it. The fact that the guy would go to the supermarket for me tells me that he cares, and is trying.
So I don't think that most women would think that meant you didn't appreciate them.
Yup, this!0 -
Sorry, but for me, dating starts with impressing me.
Thinking like this is why so many guys lie and BS you gals. In fact this actually make it easier for the bad guys to look good.
Agree with Poncho!
No.
While I appreciate the position of "be yourself, don't try to over-impress," I do think the key word there is "over". Ladies take a lot of time to prepare for dates. They try to look nice (makeup, hair, nice outfit, etc.), they try to make a good impression. They expect the guy to do the same. It means you appreciate them, you're willing to do a bit extra for them.
I dress very casually when I'm at home, I don't shower every day, I don't shave. Does that mean I should wear a pair of dirty jeans and go out on a first date with 2-day stubble, just to show her how I really am? "Hey, this is me, no BS, baby!"
When you use a coupon on date #1, you are sending the wrong signal. You are saying, "I don't respect you enough to try to make a good first impression."
I'm not saying ditch your 94 Toyota Corolla and rent a Ferrari for the night. I am saying clean out your 94 Corolla. Get those old McDonald's wrappers out of the back seat! See the difference?
Final point: while I enjoy a good debate as much as the next person, on some things, it really makes sense to defer to what the ladies are saying, full stop. If the question is, "Does God exist?" then it really makes no difference if you're a man or woman. We all have opinions, we can share them equally.
However, if the topic is, "What do women think about men using coupons on the first date?" then clearly we need to listen to the actual *women* in this discussion. And from what I've read so far, it's probably not a good idea to use a coupon on the first date if you want to impress a woman.
If, on the other hand, you men here would like to ask Poncho out (seems like a nice guy), then by all means use a coupon...
--P
I should clarify that A. I have never used a coupon in my life, lol. And B. for me I would never dream of showing up on a date looking like a slob.... I figured that is a given, is it not?? If a girl wanted to use a coupon on a date I wouldn't think anything of it however.
My points yesterday were more aimed at the fact that women blind themselves by how they are being treated on a first date (nothing to do with a coupon) rather than actually getting to know the guy. You can go back on any number of threads here and see how many girls were duped at the bs some dude threw at them on dates 1,2, and 3 and then did a total 180. So while actually showing up for a date in a respectable manner is extremely valid maybe some would benefit by taming down the all about me attitude.
I also would add and think some of the guys here would agree that the definition of "cool girl" is one that lets some of these picky girl things slide.0 -
I for one wouldn't ever use a coupon on a date but I hear what poncho is saying. People in here often seem to have too many rules and or ideals. But what I think poncho is saying is that, it might a bit quick for the guy to be written off just cause he used a coupon. Too bad if he's a loyal, genuine, good looking guy and heaven forbid he used a coupon. I'd say stop being so damn precious to the ladies and get over yourselves.
Bingo!! Thanks for seeing beyond the coupon, lol.0 -
According to P, I'm a dude. Good to know!
I really should work on the peeing standing up thing, I am NOT good at it.0 -
I agree, but don't forget, though, that YOU choose ultimately what you WANT with the girl.My points yesterday were more aimed at the fact that women blind themselves by how they are being treated on a first date (nothing to do with a coupon) rather than actually getting to know the guy.
So while actually showing up for a date in a respectable manner is extremely valid maybe some would benefit by taming down the all about me attitude.
If you don't like the girl's attitude, you don't have to accept that BS and you can just say to her: "Look you're cute and all, bu really your 'about me' attitude is just annoying".
Fortunately, many girls don't have that "queen" attitude when they come to dates - trust me - and it's not even that difficult to find them. So in this case, the date just happens smoothly because both sides are trying to impress.
You do not have to contend with this attitude should you not want to
(I might actually pretend in front of the girl I don't mind, even though the woman would be officially written off or nearly written off, but I wouldn't say anything and still play along just to attempt to have sex...)0 -
You do not have to contend with this attitude should you not want to
(I might actually pretend in front of the girl I don't mind, even though the woman would be officially written off or nearly written off, but I wouldn't say anything and still play along just to attempt to have sex...)
You're a bad, bad man!! :noway:
Why would you even want to sleep with someone with such a bad attitude?? I really dont get this "I'll fu*k you and leave you" bravado attitude. I've seen it a couple of times on here. There are better ways to get back at a woman than fu*kin her to death ya know!!! :laugh: :laugh: Some of us quite ENJOY it!!
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You do not have to contend with this attitude should you not want to
(I might actually pretend in front of the girl I don't mind, even though the woman would be officially written off or nearly written off, but I wouldn't say anything and still play along just to attempt to have sex...)
You're a bad, bad man!! :noway:
Why would you even want to sleep with someone with such a bad attitude?? I really dont get this "I'll fu*k you and leave you" bravado attitude. I've seen it a couple of times on here. There are better ways to get back at a woman than fu*kin her to death ya know!!! :laugh: :laugh: Some of us quite ENJOY it!!
Getting f*cked to death sounds awesome. Who wants to die in their sleep?0 -
I agree, but don't forget, though, that YOU choose ultimately what you WANT with the girl.My points yesterday were more aimed at the fact that women blind themselves by how they are being treated on a first date (nothing to do with a coupon) rather than actually getting to know the guy.
So while actually showing up for a date in a respectable manner is extremely valid maybe some would benefit by taming down the all about me attitude.
If you don't like the girl's attitude, you don't have to accept that BS and you can just say to her: "Look you're cute and all, bu really your 'about me' attitude is just annoying".
Fortunately, many girls don't have that "queen" attitude when they come to dates - trust me - and it's not even that difficult to find them. So in this case, the date just happens smoothly because both sides are trying to impress.
You do not have to contend with this attitude should you not want to
(I might actually pretend in front of the girl I don't mind, even though the woman would be officially written off or nearly written off, but I wouldn't say anything and still play along just to attempt to have sex...)
If this were facebook, I'd "like" it!!0
This discussion has been closed.