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I mean... if Jenna Fischer gets 7.5... Then I don't even want to know what I am. :laugh:
I was shocked at that! And Carrie Underwood a 6. I'm sorry, but she's a perfect 10.
We're all doomed :sad:0 -
see! and this is why i'm actually glad that i'm ok by myself. according to the criteria of men, i would be a negative number.
why would i POSSIBLY give a male the honor of control, impacting, affecting my self esteem, my self confidence, and my self worth. i am better than some guys arbitrary "rating' scale!!! if a guy doesn't like me because of a checklist like the one in that blog, then he is not worth my time, effort, energy, love, and kinky sex stuff ;-) end of story!0 -
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/09/feminine-beauty-is-highly-controllable.html
The way I look at this specific article on the blog is:
It gives people a no bullsh!t explanation on what guys generally prefer in terms of appearance.
That's it. At no point did this blog pretend to be anything else (from my point of view).
My view on finding a woman is:
Live your life as you want and optimise your chances of finding a woman when you're in a context where you are likely to meet one and in the mood. I believe finding a man is similar.
About the optimisation part: I thought everyone could use this kind of no bullsh!t advice. If you ask your friends, they will tell you how great you look and that they don't understand how no man has snatched you yet.
They give you no useful advice on how to improve your chances. No steps to follow, nothing.
And now this guy tells you what you can do to improve your appearance and where you should focus your effort. He even tells you how much each thing weight against each other.
His authority on the subject is that he is a man, and that he just looked at what men are generally attracted to. Now you can be upset about it all you want, it won't change this.
You can also decide to fight against what society implanted in our men's brains and be different. I'm cool with that.
I could also decide to fight against what society implanted in your women's brains and be different from what 90% of the women expect, but the truth is that with a minimal effort it is possible to adjust.
If you look at the weight of each bullet point of this guy's list, you can decide to improve with minimal effort by focusing first on the one with the best ROI.
Oh, you've done that already? Well, fine then! In this case, you're doing your best in terms of appearance already and here let me shake your hand and goodbye. You don't need to read that article then.
See that was easy. No need to be all weird about it.
I'm actually shocked at how defensive and extremists women become when the conversation goes towards their appearance.
Well, sorry to tell you this, but you will actually be judged against your appearance (shocking news, I know! nah just kidding we all know this now, do we).
I will quote because people seem to be too lazy to read:
- "The topic is avoided because women do not realize how controllable their appearance is. [...]However, the notion that a woman's attractiveness is anything less than highly controllable is patently false." Anyone disagrees with this? No? Good.
- "Now, even though I have gone to rigorous ends to elicit these ratings from the recesses of my mind, obviously they are still relative to my personal taste. That being said, while men will all disagree over the minutiae of female beauty, few will disagree with the important aspects. This post should give you a solid idea of what matters to most guys, and how much." Anyone disagrees with this? No? Good.
- "Far too many women fail to recognize the leverage they have over their own appearance. This leverage translates directly into control over the ability to attract men." Anyone disagrees with this? No? Good.
- The rest of the article is mainly graphs and spreadsheets with various factors.
Yes, the content of this article is in fact very tame. I'm unsure we are reading the same blog honestly.
If you disagree with the content of this blog without actually having read it or even better tried it, then fine.0 -
I find the blog very entertaining and incredibly accurate.. however, I really don't like it.
The blog gives away too much insight into the male mind. It basically tells women all of our secrets and preferences. If a female was to read and follow all the recommendations, she could basically get any man she wants (within reason). I feel that this gives women a huge upper hand in the dating world, which I don't feel comfortable with.
Like this blogger, I feel that some men are too eager to give away all of our secrets.0 -
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/09/feminine-beauty-is-highly-controllable.html
The way I look at this specific article on the blog is:
It gives people a no bullsh!t explanation on what guys generally prefer in terms of appearance.
That's it. At no point did this blog pretend to be anything else (from my point of view).
See,I didn`t take it that way,of course attraction is probably the basis for the start of romantic relationships although there are exceptions,that is kind of him having a firm grasp of the obvious.
What I sensed was it seeming to in his mind to be the only foundation for it to continue.0 -
What I don't understand is how we get to this point of dissecting every little detail of the dating process. Making rules, desperately searching the internet to reasons why we aren't attracting members of the opposite sex. A lot of the stuff I see posted in this group makes it sound like dating is work. That it's not any fun, it's brutal, everyone is always judging one another. Is my hair long enough? Am I skinny enough to start dating? Do I bring home leftovers? Do I have to wear heels? Will the girl still like me if I use a coupon? People got by just fine before these blogs or the internet altogether. What happened to trial and error? Why do we have to make it a painful work process?0
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I'm actually shocked at how defensive and extremists women become when the conversation goes towards their appearance.
Why? We're told all the time, in a million different ways, both overtly and subliminally, that to be 'good enough' we have to exemplify a physical ideal that is achievable for less than 5% of the population, and win the genetic lottery on colouring, hair colour/texture, facial structure, proportions etc as well, reducing the population of 'beautiful/ 'good enough' women even further. Is it any wonder 95% plus of us are defensive about our looks? As for extremist, my generation of women, and a couple of generations before mine, have been told from birth, more or less, that we can do and be anything we set out to achieve. That our worth is based on so much more than what we look like. Do you really blame us for fighting back against a society that still insists on defining and valuing us for how we look, rather than what we do and who we are? I hardly think that asking and expecting to be valued for our multiplicity of attributes,as a 'whole person', as a man usually is, is extremist.
I'm not sure the experience can truly be replicated for men, because of the comparative paucity of looks-based pressure (though it is increasing), but if someone (or several someones - this is hardly unique) wrote a blog telling you that the only thing that really mattered about you was your looks, that your achievements, intellect, personality - the things that last and make you 'you' - were, at best, of secondary importance and might even be detrimental to your chances of finding a loving relationship; if you too were enjoined to spend time, effort, and (a lot of) money in conforming to a notional (and primarily unrealistic) visual 'ideal', because failure to do so would result in your being eternally alone, would you not also be defensive?0 -
@ castadiva
This is exactly it. Incredibly well said. Take a bow.
And you all know I can even get on board with seeing things from a male perspective and am pretty realistic about the importance of appearance...but this blog sincerely pisses me off. I realize it makes me feel both defensive and angry..for as you say..completely devaluing any other attributes than what I happen to look like.0 -
Women are defensive about their looks because since birth we are taught that a female is nothing if she isn't beautiful. Every culture has a different definition of what beautiful is, but smarts, earning potential and personality isn't valued as much in women. Women would like to think we've come farther than to believe we are more than our looks. We are also told that as women we can do anything that we set our mind to (which I do believe), but that doesn't mean we won't have 10 more road blocks because of what society believes we SHOULD be. This blog, to me, basically says "if you aren't the definition of beauty that this guy (and supposedly 95% of the male population), you won't land and keep a man". Period. Newsflash guys, every woman is beautiful in her own way. You might not think I'm hot/pretty/cute/beautiful/gorgeous, but that doesn't mean that 10 other men won't. Yes, I know I'm limiting the dating pool by wearing my hair short, but guess what, my 5'11 height did that long ago. So did my not perfect body. And honestly, I'd rather have one man that worships the ground I walk on than 100 men that only want to get with me for one thing.0
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Both men and women have a lot pressure to please the opposite sex.
As a man, I grew up with the idea that I had to be successful, well educated, charming, masculine, etc in order to attract a female. I was told this by family, friends, teachers, and coaches all throughout my childhood. Did I take offense to this? Of course not! I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth when it comes to advice or constructive criticism.
I believe all that advice made the awesome guy I am today. :smokin:0 -
It is unjustified in this specific case, as the blogger once more tells women that their "beauty", "appearance" or whatever you want to call it is controllable at 80%.Why? We're told all the time, in a million different ways, both overtly and subliminally, that to be 'good enough' we have to exemplify a physical ideal that is achievable for less than 5% of the population, and win the genetic lottery on colouring, hair colour/texture, facial structure, proportions etc as well, reducing the population of 'beautiful/ 'good enough' women even further. Is it any wonder 95% plus of us are defensive about our looks?
So yes, it is a wonder why (in this specific instance) 95% plus of the women will be upset about the article. The blogger tells us that these 5% of the population in fact not as advantaged as you would initially think.
And I will quote:
"Hopefully you noticed something important about this list: it does not include women who have "ugly" faces, or even deformities. Obviously natural good looks cannot be overlooked, but they are given far more credit than they deserve. It is the height of hyperbole - you might even say a myth - that women are either born attractive or not."
This:
It is the height of hyperbole - you might even say a myth - that women are either born attractive or not."
I think is pretty clear.
This blogger is much more on your side than you actually believe. So yes, sorry to tell you this (girls), but you are being defensive. He is giving you tips to be more attractive that you are free to agree or disagree with, but he is trying to help you.
I don't blame you, but you need to understand that men suffer the same fate. So that doesn't make you unique, but it is just the way things work.As for extremist, my generation of women, and a couple of generations before mine, have been told from birth, more or less, that we can do and be anything we set out to achieve. That our worth is based on so much more than what we look like. Do you really blame us for fighting back against a society that still insists on defining and valuing us for how we look, rather than what we do and who we are? I hardly think that asking and expecting to be valued for our multiplicity of attributes,as a 'whole person', as a man usually is, is extremist.
Plus nobody said you wouldn't be valued for your whole.
And I will quote:
"If you get disheartened because men are not approaching you, or if you have an initial interaction with a guy you like and then he leaves or doesn't take your number - tough luck. This is part of female game, just like approaching, being rejected and humiliated is part of a man's. When a guy gets rejected, he doesn't blame the girl; he blames himself. When I get turned down, I know that if I had been more confident or smarter, or otherwise a man of higher value, she would have been attracted to me. I make it my goal to always improve, so that next time I will walk away with her number. The same should go for you: when a guy walks away without your contact information, suck it up, figure out other ways to make yourself more attractive or personable (the other posts in this blog should help), then get back out there."
Source (same blog):
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/09/how-to-make-yourself-approachable.html
Now at no point did he talk about a "relationship" or getting married, or being considered as a whole.
He talked about "giving your contact number", "being approached.
Do we all agree that "being approached" and "giving your contact number" are generally speaking considered prerequisites to a relationship (lol...)? Yes? Thanks.
Sorry I will reiterate and quote the terms from the extract above to frame the conversation:
- Initial interaction with a guy
- Initial approach
Unless we really believe that we go from the status "single" to "in relationship and engaged" without a transition?
Well, what this guy tells you is: how do you get from single to "I have a guy's number in my phone and we might have a few dates in the near future". Nothing else.
He doesn't even tell you how to do those dates. Just how to be approachable and getting someone's contact details.
Again, you didn't read the blog. Please do.I'm not sure the experience can truly be replicated for men, because of the comparative paucity of looks-based pressure (though it is increasing), but if someone (or several someones - this is hardly unique) wrote a blog telling you that the only thing that really mattered about you was your looks, that your achievements, intellect, personality - the things that last and make you 'you' - were, at best, of secondary importance and might even be detrimental to your chances of finding a loving relationship; if you too were enjoined to spend time, effort, and (a lot of) money in conforming to a notional (and primarily unrealistic) visual 'ideal', because failure to do so would result in your being eternally alone, would you not also be defensive?
At no point he said that you would be judged solely on your looks and that "the only thing that really mattered about you was your looks".
No. He said if you want to be approached ( Initial interaction with a guy, Initial approach as we saw above), you have to work mainly on:
As I have indicated in other posts, there are three aspects or stages of female game:
1) Making yourself as attractive as possible
2) Making yourself approachable
3) Filtering out the men that just want to fvck you from the men that want to date you
(http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/09/how-to-make-yourself-approachable.html)
Do you disagree with this? And if yes, why?
And if you do disagree, please remember that traditionally most men are supposed to approach women and you have, yourself, said that you expected men to take the lead and do the asking out - so I'm wondering what more "active" part you are expecting in the asking out process than just standing there and be as attractive and pleasant as you can, which consists basically in following the 3 points above.
Sorry if I sound like an @sshole, but the thing is most people are going on completely exaggerated tangents based on their personal experience of life and not based on the actual content of the blog which is, for what it wants to achieve (and I will repeat: help women being approachable/approached) pretty good IMO.
This is what I call extremists: someone says "appearance is important in the initial approach" (as these articles say) and you hear in response "you are just a shallow b@stard and women will never want to marry a guy like you because we want to be considered for more than just our appearance".
Good for you. Except nobody talked about a LTR here, and again, it is generally agreed that being approached is useful to start a LTR.0 -
Both men and women have a lot pressure to please the opposite sex.
As a man, I grew up with the idea that I had to be successful, well educated, charming, masculine, etc in order to attract a female. I was told this by family, friends, teachers, and coaches all throughout my childhood. Did I take offense to this? Of course not! I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth when it comes to advice or constructive criticism.
I believe all that advice made the awesome guy I am today. :smokin:
I also grew up with the idea that I had to be successful, well educated, well mannered, intelligent and to present myself well as an individual. This was not to attract a male, it was just the way to be. In fact, I never received any instruction on how to "get" a man...apparently my parents, friends and teachers thought those things were also enough for us.
So...perhaps I was not done any favours at all. Instead of doing my degree, I should have been at personal training sessions, getting all body hair lasered away and my vagina reconstructed..clearly.0 -
i don't care if someone tells me that i have to be beautiful in order to attract a man. my point, which i'm not trying to be defensive or anything even like that, is that i am who i am. and i refuse to be something else for someone else...... i am NOT going to change who i am just to attract a guy. it's not worth it.
i have yet to meet a single male that has shown me that changing myself was worth it. so, i won't. either you like me for who i am, or you don't. end of story. and if you can accept the "lack of beauty" and outward imperfections than you will see that underneath you've actually found a really amazing person!!!!
i have learned TWO things from men, and that's it. 1. it really is all about sex. and 2. you cannot rely on them. end of the story. why would i change for either of those things? i LIKE who i am :-)0 -
Both men and women have a lot pressure to please the opposite sex.
This I agree with and God knows we have endless discussions on here about the myriad of things a guy is expected to do in developing a relationship to measure up with often one failure and a lady completely will lose interest.
I make no secret that this annoys me as much as what I consider drivel in the blog posts.
Both genders make it far too difficult too often and given the failure rate of relationships/marriage one would think rather then continue with all the rules/expectations/criteria etc we would be searching for an alternative way to find that special someone in life.0 -
I will now quote myself. :smokin: coz I'm lazyi don't care if someone tells me that i have to be beautiful in order to attract a man. my point, which i'm not trying to be defensive or anything even like that, is that i am who i am. and i refuse to be something else for someone else...... i am NOT going to change who i am just to attract a guy. it's not worth it.
i have yet to meet a single male that has shown me that changing myself was worth it. so, i won't. either you like me for who i am, or you don't. end of story. and if you can accept the "lack of beauty" and outward imperfections than you will see that underneath you've actually found a really amazing person!!!!
i have learned TWO things from men, and that's it. 1. it really is all about sex. and 2. you cannot rely on them. end of the story. why would i change for either of those things? i LIKE who i am :-)Sorry if I sound like an @sshole, but the thing is most people are going on completely exaggerated tangents based on their personal experience of life and not based on the actual content of the blog which is, for what it wants to achieve (and I will repeat: help women being approachable/approached) pretty good IMO.0 -
Both men and women have a lot pressure to please the opposite sex.
As a man, I grew up with the idea that I had to be successful, well educated, charming, masculine, etc in order to attract a female. I was told this by family, friends, teachers, and coaches all throughout my childhood. Did I take offense to this? Of course not! I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth when it comes to advice or constructive criticism.
I believe all that advice made the awesome guy I am today. :smokin:
Which is exactly my point - as a man you are valued for your intellect, your achievements, your personality - the intrinsic parts of who you are. Most women would like to be valued for those same things. Instead, we are told, repeatedly, that our only value lies in how we look - something that is not as 'controllable' as this chap would have us believe, unless one is willing and able to get into the extremes of plastic surgery and/or has endless financial resources and spare time.
I comply to a certain extent; I like to look good, for my own self-esteem as much as anything else - but it is not, and never will be, my priority. My value as a person is based on much, much more than the size of my waistband, or the style of my hair.
FlimFlam - I swear we must be reading different blogs (I have actually read it). Either that, or our perspectives are so utterly different that we're reading the same thing and interpreting it in completely different ways. One point though. Many women look at each new 'approach' as the potential beginning of a LTR. Perhaps that's the source of our different interpretation. The blogger make several references in other posts to marriage, long-term commitment etc, so I don't agree that he is talking solely about landing the next date.0 -
Am I really the only lady on here not upset with the blogger?:noway:
Its his opinion and he said more than once that each of his guy friends finds different things about woemen attractive. He is not saying we all have to be "blond barbie's" He is just saying maximizing your potential will help you in the dating world. Well no ****!
Well all Know men value apperance. Getting angry wont change that.0 -
I'm not upset with the blogger either. I think it's a great blog and should be required reading for most women.
Kitsune -- I'm sorry if you thought I was attacking you or taking a dig at you. That was not my intention. My point was merely that I could understand why you might feel the way you do.0 -
Which is exactly my point - as a man you are valued for your intellect, your achievements, your personality - the intrinsic parts of who you are. Most women would like to be valued for those same things. Instead, we are told, repeatedly, that our only value lies in how we look - something that is not as 'controllable' as this chap would have us believe, unless one is willing and able to get into the extremes of plastic surgery and/or has endless financial resources and spare time.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but the blogger is an accurate representation of myself, my friends, and most men I've met throughout my life. All the blogger does is give sound advice and some constructive criticism. If you feel so wronged by it, maybe you should start a blog and list everything that men are doing wrong when it comes to dating.
What rubs a lot of men the wrong way are women who say we *should* be attracted to their intellect, achievements, personality, etc. Who are you to say what men should find attractive and go for? Since when do you have experience being a man?
I'm sure there are some guys out there that will put higher value on those things over looks. But, you can't influence or assume all men should be attracted to those qualities.0 -
Which is exactly my point - as a man you are valued for your intellect, your achievements, your personality - the intrinsic parts of who you are. Most women would like to be valued for those same things. Instead, we are told, repeatedly, that our only value lies in how we look - something that is not as 'controllable' as this chap would have us believe, unless one is willing and able to get into the extremes of plastic surgery and/or has endless financial resources and spare time.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but the blogger is an accurate representation of myself, my friends, and most men I've met throughout my life. All the blogger does is give sound advice and some constructive criticism. If you feel so wronged by it, maybe you should start a blog and list everything that men are doing wrong when it comes to dating.
What rubs a lot of men the wrong way are women who say we *should* be attracted to their intellect, achievements, personality, etc. Who are you to say what men should find attractive and go for? Since when do you have experience being a man?
I'm sure there are some guys out there that will put higher value on those things over looks. But, you can't influence or assume all men should be attracted to those qualities.
*slow clap*
Everyone is entitled to what THEY think is attractive. You cannot tell someone what they must think is attractive0
