Chivalry

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christine24t
christine24t Posts: 6,063 Member
I know we discuss chivalry frequently, but I came across an interesting article.

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/celebrity/news/does-chivalry-make-us-uncomfortable?click=cos_latest

Quote from article:

"Other staffers and their friends have issues:

* One had a guy bump into her in a bar and spill her drink. He offered to pay for a new one, but she politely turned him down. Her thought was that she could buy her own drink (even if he did spill it) and she didn't want to feel obligated to him. It ended up getting kinda awkward with him insisting that he pay for one and her insisting that it was cool.

* Another feels uncomfortable and a little flustered when men she doesn't know open the door for her, but then hates it when guys push past her to go through a door first.

* And a friend has run into an issue a few times where she insists on splitting the check on a date (because everybody has to work for a living) and the guy ends up thinking she's not interested. And then it's just awkward.

So, here's the dilemma: We demand chivalry, because really, it's awesome, but most of us have been raised to be strong, independent women who feel like we need to do everything by ourselves. When a guy sweetly offers to do something for us, we're not sure how to react. That said, when a guy doesn't open a door for us, elbows us out of the way to claim the last seat on the bus, or doesn't offer to pay for a date, yeah, we usually end up thinking he's a little rude.

And yes, we get that that's a hypocritical statement.

What's your take? Should we just stop fighting these polite gestures and go with it, knowing that it doesn't make us any less self-sufficient? Or are guys screwed either way?"

I love chivalry! I think it's so sweet to see a man being chivalrous. I don't really agree with the article in general (typically, I take chivalry and don't question it) but I understand that many people would probably agree with the general idea of the article. The drink thing is the only thing I would've changed. If a guy offered to buy me a drink for one he spilled, I would say no and walk away, not keep debating it with him.
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Replies

  • RunIntheMud
    RunIntheMud Posts: 2,645 Member
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    I love chivalry and appreciate all acts of it. I do agree that women should be independent, however in a relationship, I don't always believe that should be the case. I do think there are some times when a lady should act like a lady and not overly independent. Just enjoy the date and let a man take care of you. In regards to the issues in the article:

    The spilled drink - I would have politely declined. However, if he pressed the issue, I would have accepted the drink and had a conversation with him. Who knows, maybe he's the one? ;)

    Opening the door - 99% of the men around here open the door for women, even if not on a date. Every date I've been on, the man has opened the door. There have been a couple times at the store when a man has not opened it, I don't get upset. I open it myself, hold it for him and say good morning or afternoon. What good does it do to get upset over this?

    Splitting the check on the date - I will pull out my pocket book when the check comes out. If it's a first date and he says he'll take care of it, I let him and make sure to thank him then and also when we say good night at the car. If we're in a relationship, I suggest alternating paying when we go out (you pay this time, I pay next, and so on). Or, you pay for dinner, I'll pay for the movies. It worked well. :)
  • TheKitsune6
    TheKitsune6 Posts: 5,798 Member
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    - If a guy spills my drink and offers to replace it, hell yes he will buy me a new drink. I would do the same if I bumped into a man or a woman, and I should hope he would do the same for a man. It's like if you accidentally damage someones property, you are responsible to replace or repair. I would feel no obligation toward him at all. It's not a chivalry issue.

    - I thank anyone who wants to open the door for me, and I get annoyed when people know I'm behind them but don't take a second to hold it open. I also do the same for others. Its' not a gender/chivalry issue. It's just polite.

    - Whoever asked for the date should pay, that's my general rule of thumb. I don't suggest things I can't afford, and I don't get expensive items. I don't really like spending very much money as it is, I think it's wasteful to spend so much on food that you can prepare yourself for cheaper.

    So I guess I don't see a dilemma. For me it's not about chivalry, like men should do X and women should do Y. I guess I kind of see it as things that are nice to do for your fellow human being. There are some that I find pointless in this day and age - putting a jacket over a puddle is just stupid, and opening car doors has become obsolete since automatic locks became common place (if you don't have automatic locks you should open the door for your passenger first!).
  • zachatta
    zachatta Posts: 1,340 Member
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    Chivalry died with the feminist movement.

    * To further clarify, it should continue to die out completely.

    I am all about fair treatment for both genders across the board, I am completely

    opposed to special treatment to one gender or another simply because of "tradition".
  • Danielle_2013
    Danielle_2013 Posts: 806 Member
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    Chivalry died with the feminist movement.

    Please explain.

    What is your definition of chivalry?

    I agree with the ladies above. I have no issue with doors, spilled drinks being replaced or someone offering to pay...as I know I will always offer or find a way to return a favour again.
  • christine24t
    christine24t Posts: 6,063 Member
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    So I guess I don't see a dilemma. For me it's not about chivalry, like men should do X and women should do Y. I guess I kind of see it as things that are nice to do for your fellow human being. There are some that I find pointless in this day and age - putting a jacket over a puddle is just stupid, and opening car doors has become obsolete since automatic locks became common place (if you don't have automatic locks you should open the door for your passenger first!).

    Very good point. I think most of it is just being polite.
  • zachatta
    zachatta Posts: 1,340 Member
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    Chivalry died with the feminist movement.

    Please explain.

    What is your definition of chivalry?

    I agree with the ladies above. I have no issue with doors, spilled drinks being replaced or someone offering to pay...as I know I will always offer or find a way to return a favour again.

    If you change the "chivalry" label, to simply being polite or politeness, then of course I agree with being polite.

    HOWEVER, the majority of people define chivalry as men treating women special, in one fashion or another.

    If you are a feminist, you believe that women and men should be treated equally, I believe this.

    So supporting an idea that men should give special treatment to women, for arbitrary reasons, is a bit archaic imo.
  • TheKitsune6
    TheKitsune6 Posts: 5,798 Member
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    If you change the "chivalry" label, to simply being polite or politeness, then of course I agree with being polite.


    chiv·al·ry
    [shiv-uh l-ree]
    noun, plural chiv·al·ries
    1.
    the sum of the ideal qualifications of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms.

    The meaning of the word hasn't changed, our perspective on who it could apply to has. Women can be knights too strong.gif
  • zachatta
    zachatta Posts: 1,340 Member
    Options

    If you change the "chivalry" label, to simply being polite or politeness, then of course I agree with being polite.


    chiv·al·ry
    [shiv-uh l-ree]
    noun, plural chiv·al·ries
    1.
    the sum of the ideal qualifications of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms.

    The meaning of the word hasn't changed, our perspective on who it could apply to has. Women can be knights too strong.gif

    While women "can be knights too", why perpetuate special treatment based on gender?

    I appreciate your opinion that women can be "chivalrous" to men, however reality says that is not a

    society norm and isn't necessarily applicable to this topic.

    The majority of people would define chivalry as men giving women special treatment,

    if you need further proof, read the OP where Op says something to the effect of "we

    have been raised to be strong independent women...etc etc"
  • grum84
    grum84 Posts: 428 Member
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    * One had a guy bump into her in a bar and spill her drink. He offered to pay for a new one, but she politely turned him down. Her thought was that she could buy her own drink (even if he did spill it) and she didn't want to feel obligated to him. It ended up getting kinda awkward with him insisting that he pay for one and her insisting that it was cool.

    * Another feels uncomfortable and a little flustered when men she doesn't know open the door for her, but then hates it when guys push past her to go through a door first.

    * And a friend has run into an issue a few times where she insists on splitting the check on a date (because everybody has to work for a living) and the guy ends up thinking she's not interested. And then it's just awkward.

    So, here's the dilemma: We demand chivalry, because really, it's awesome, but most of us have been raised to be strong, independent women who feel like we need to do everything by ourselves. When a guy sweetly offers to do something for us, we're not sure how to react. That said, when a guy doesn't open a door for us, elbows us out of the way to claim the last seat on the bus, or doesn't offer to pay for a date, yeah, we usually end up thinking he's a little rude.

    And yes, we get that that's a hypocritical statement.

    What's your take? Should we just stop fighting these polite gestures and go with it, knowing that it doesn't make us any less self-sufficient? Or are guys screwed either way?"

    I love chivalry! I think it's so sweet to see a man being chivalrous. I don't really agree with the article in general (typically, I take
    chivalry and don't question it) but I understand that many people would probably agree with the general idea of the article. The drink thing is the only thing I would've changed. If a guy offered to buy me a drink for one he spilled, I would say no and walk away, not keep debating it with him.

    I guess to me several of these things just don't really have to be labeled as chivalry, but just being a decent person.

    *If someone spilled my drink, or I spilled theirs...the person spilling the drink should just offer to buy one out of common decency.

    *I open the door for people that are following me or coming out of a place when I am. I think this is something that should go both ways as well just to be a decent person.

    *I am fine with splitting a check or going dutch after the first date. I was raised that the guy pays for the first date (first pay date as many of my firsts may not involve something having to be paid for). So I guess this may be chivalrous of me, but really is just me trying to make a good first impression.

    Just my thoughts.
  • meshashesha2012
    meshashesha2012 Posts: 8,326 Member
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    I know we discuss chivalry frequently, but I came across an interesting article.

    http://www.cosmopolitan.com/celebrity/news/does-chivalry-make-us-uncomfortable?click=cos_latest

    Quote from article:

    "Other staffers and their friends have issues:

    * One had a guy bump into her in a bar and spill her drink. He offered to pay for a new one, but she politely turned him down. Her thought was that she could buy her own drink (even if he did spill it) and she didn't want to feel obligated to him. It ended up getting kinda awkward with him insisting that he pay for one and her insisting that it was cool.

    * Another feels uncomfortable and a little flustered when men she doesn't know open the door for her, but then hates it when guys push past her to go through a door first.

    * And a friend has run into an issue a few times where she insists on splitting the check on a date (because everybody has to work for a living) and the guy ends up thinking she's not interested. And then it's just awkward.

    So, here's the dilemma: We demand chivalry, because really, it's awesome, but most of us have been raised to be strong, independent women who feel like we need to do everything by ourselves. When a guy sweetly offers to do something for us, we're not sure how to react. That said, when a guy doesn't open a door for us, elbows us out of the way to claim the last seat on the bus, or doesn't offer to pay for a date, yeah, we usually end up thinking he's a little rude.

    And yes, we get that that's a hypocritical statement.

    What's your take? Should we just stop fighting these polite gestures and go with it, knowing that it doesn't make us any less self-sufficient? Or are guys screwed either way?"

    I love chivalry! I think it's so sweet to see a man being chivalrous. I don't really agree with the article in general (typically, I take chivalry and don't question it) but I understand that many people would probably agree with the general idea of the article. The drink thing is the only thing I would've changed. If a guy offered to buy me a drink for one he spilled, I would say no and walk away, not keep debating it with him.

    i was raised in a culture where women have been working out of the home for centuries so i've never seen it as being an either or situation to be both equal to men in terms of being able to work (even though all women still on the whole make less than men except for a few professions) and still being able to reconcile that with some of the more traditional gender expectations. honestly, it's one of the best things about being a black woman (the other looking 15-20 years younger :laugh: )

    also i dont consider myself a feminist, i am however a womanist. i think most of what i dont agree with traditional feminism is the idea that men and women should be treated equal in everything. men and women are not equal in everything. men are not women, women are not men. IMO it gets even more stupid when people apply that equality to dating and relationships and then will turn around and complain about how passive men are. it's like they want to apply a new formula but still get the same results. there are other reasons i dont agree with feminism but this isn't the place to do it

    with that said i ALWAYS accept the polite male gesture. for instance there's a shuttle that i take every day for work, this morning it was crowded as hell. some guy offered his seat to me and i accepted it with a gracious thank you. another guy tried to do the same for another woman and she declined. he offered to another standing woman and she also declined. it's not about the seat, it's about accepting the polite gesture and if i were a dude i'd do the same thing.

    on dates i expect my doors to be opened, my chairs to be pulled out, the guy to walk on the street side if we're on the sidewalk and the first few dates to be paid for. perhaps some guys don't like it, but that's cool. i'm also sure some women will disagree because they think my expectations and those of women like me are what's holding them as women, but i dont give a crap.

    the way i see it, the way i hang out with someone i'm buddies with is much different than when i'm hanging out with some one i'm thinking my be a potential romantic relationship. i expect to be treated like a pal in one instance and treated like a lady in the other
  • FitnessPalWorks
    FitnessPalWorks Posts: 1,128 Member
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    * One had a guy bump into her in a bar and spill her drink. He offered to pay for a new one, but she politely turned him down. Her thought was that she could buy her own drink (even if he did spill it) and she didn't want to feel obligated to him. It ended up getting kinda awkward with him insisting that he pay for one and her insisting that it was cool.

    * Another feels uncomfortable and a little flustered when men she doesn't know open the door for her, but then hates it when guys push past her to go through a door first.

    * And a friend has run into an issue a few times where she insists on splitting the check on a date (because everybody has to work for a living) and the guy ends up thinking she's not interested. And then it's just awkward.

    So, here's the dilemma: We demand chivalry, because really, it's awesome, but most of us have been raised to be strong, independent women who feel like we need to do everything by ourselves. When a guy sweetly offers to do something for us, we're not sure how to react. That said, when a guy doesn't open a door for us, elbows us out of the way to claim the last seat on the bus, or doesn't offer to pay for a date, yeah, we usually end up thinking he's a little rude.

    And yes, we get that that's a hypocritical statement.

    What's your take? Should we just stop fighting these polite gestures and go with it, knowing that it doesn't make us any less self-sufficient? Or are guys screwed either way?"

    I love chivalry! I think it's so sweet to see a man being chivalrous. I don't really agree with the article in general (typically, I take
    chivalry and don't question it) but I understand that many people would probably agree with the general idea of the article. The drink thing is the only thing I would've changed. If a guy offered to buy me a drink for one he spilled, I would say no and walk away, not keep debating it with him.

    I guess to me several of these things just don't really have to be labeled as chivalry, but just being a decent person.
    ^
    This.
  • MikeM53082
    MikeM53082 Posts: 1,199 Member
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    All men have the ability and will exhibit chivalrous behavior when need be. They will hold doors open, pull chairs out, and be a perfect gentleman if he feels the need to. Every man knows the basics when it comes to chivalry, it's just one of those things men know how to do.

    Here's the rub.. men will only be chivalrous when they feel the woman *deserves* to be treated as such. If your man, boyfriend, or crush isn't chivalrous to you.. chances are you don't deserve it (or at least he doesn't think so).

    It's not every woman's god given right to be showered with chivalrous males wherever they go. There comes a point where they have to earn it. Elderly women are the exception.. every man should open doors, etc etc for elderly woman.
  • Katefab26
    Options
    Elderly women are the exception.. every man should open doors, etc etc for elderly woman.

    I actually love that you said this. :flowerforyou:

    I think a major aspect to the idea of chivalry that most women forget is that we as women have a responsibility as well -- to be gracious. I'm not sure if you realize this, but it is actually impolite to decline an offered seat or make a big deal about not letting a man hold the door for you, or even to argue over who is paying the bill on a first date. If a man (or woman) spills your drink accidentally, be gracious and accept the offer to buy you a new drink and thank them for their consideration.

    Yes, I am a strong, independent woman -- no, I am not an Amazon. If someone is going to go out of their way to make a polite gesture, I am not going to make them feel stupid for doing so. I will accept it and thank them graciously and move on. I wonder sometimes if we've gone overboard in our attempts to prove our worth. Strength really does not preclude femininity.
  • christine24t
    christine24t Posts: 6,063 Member
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    If you change the "chivalry" label, to simply being polite or politeness, then of course I agree with being polite.


    chiv·al·ry
    [shiv-uh l-ree]
    noun, plural chiv·al·ries
    1.
    the sum of the ideal qualifications of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms.

    The meaning of the word hasn't changed, our perspective on who it could apply to has. Women can be knights too strong.gif

    While women "can be knights too", why perpetuate special treatment based on gender?

    I appreciate your opinion that women can be "chivalrous" to men, however reality says that is not a

    society norm and isn't necessarily applicable to this topic.

    The majority of people would define chivalry as men giving women special treatment,

    if you need further proof, read the OP where Op says something to the effect of "we

    have been raised to be strong independent women...etc etc"

    I didn't write the article, it's from a website. I didn't say that quote. Just so you know!!
  • TheKitsune6
    TheKitsune6 Posts: 5,798 Member
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    If you change the "chivalry" label, to simply being polite or politeness, then of course I agree with being polite.


    chiv·al·ry
    [shiv-uh l-ree]
    noun, plural chiv·al·ries
    1.
    the sum of the ideal qualifications of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms.

    The meaning of the word hasn't changed, our perspective on who it could apply to has. Women can be knights too strong.gif

    While women "can be knights too", why perpetuate special treatment based on gender?

    I appreciate your opinion that women can be "chivalrous" to men, however reality says that is not a

    society norm and isn't necessarily applicable to this topic.

    The majority of people would define chivalry as men giving women special treatment,

    if you need further proof, read the OP where Op says something to the effect of "we

    have been raised to be strong independent women...etc etc"

    Mmkay, try rereading what I said and get back to me.

    Mesha, I agree with you - women and men are different. We are made up of gender, culture, sexual preference, age, experience and so many things. Those things make us who we are. However I think the most important thing is that we all have the same opportunities to do what we want. I get that not many women could be a professional football player, but if there was one woman who could run with the pack and was awesome I would be totally okay with her playing in the NFL. If someone wants a man who will work while she keeps the house (or vice versa!) then it's perfectly fine. You are allowed to have your own desires and lifestyles, but it doesn't make anyone any less "equal" than another. No matter what. We are human beings first and foremost.
  • TheKitsune6
    TheKitsune6 Posts: 5,798 Member
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    Here's the rub.. men will only be chivalrous when they feel the woman *deserves* to be treated as such. If your man, boyfriend, or crush isn't chivalrous to you.. chances are you don't deserve it (or at least he doesn't think so).

    He's probably just an inconsiderate *kitten*. You can be polite and considerate to a person even if they lack a thigh gap. If anybody thinks another individual doesn't "deserve" to have the door held open for them then that person it just rotten in their core.
  • Danielle_2013
    Danielle_2013 Posts: 806 Member
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    Kate...LOVED your post. Graciousness, in reciprocal politeness, in accepting compliments also seems to be a little lost nowadays. In no way do I equate being a woman or feminine as lesser or on unequal footing from a man. Different, yes...but still equal.
  • meshashesha2012
    meshashesha2012 Posts: 8,326 Member
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    ^ maybe what mike is saying is that guys realize that with some girls they dont have to put in as much effort to get what they want out of the relationship? yeah the guy is probably a *kitten* BUT if it gets to the stage that this guy becomes someone's man, boyfriend, etc then the girl can't complain about the treatment . people tend to treat you us the way we allow them to treat us. we can't expect other people to determine what our personal standards should be.


    as for the article, i do think the spilled drink example is a bit weird. that's just bar protocol, regardless of gender. i've accidentally spilled guys drinks and offered to buy them another. some accepted (but later bought me drink) and others have just taken the replacement drink because that's what i should have done anyway.
  • RunIntheMud
    RunIntheMud Posts: 2,645 Member
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    I think Mesha made a very good point that everyone is overlooking. In dating it is very important for a man to be a man and a woman to be a woman. Let him be a gentleman, and be a gracious lady. When you put yourself into the "buddy" situation, you are no different than his drinking or poker buddies.

    Yes, women can do whatever they want in the professional world, blah blah blah....we've proven and are proving this. But, why can't we be a lady in our personal lives? What is wrong with being with a man that wants to do the right thing? What is wrong with being gracious for this?
  • zachatta
    zachatta Posts: 1,340 Member
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    I didn't write the article, it's from a website. I didn't say that quote. Just so you know!!

    That is fine, I apologize for claiming you said something different, however my point still stands. Society deems that chivalry is when men treat women differently, regardless of what technical definition chivalry has.
    Mmkay, try rereading what I said and get back to me.

    If you meant anything other than women are capable of being "knights" just as much as men, you did a terrible job articulating.

    You defined "Chivalry", which again doesn't apply because the technical definition isn't the one society has placed on the word, example: "Liberal" should mean something different than what it does in America.

    Then you made the claim women can do this as well. Try again if you meant something completely different. The problem here isn't comprehension, it is articulation.

    Regardless you are arguing arbitrary things that don't apply to my point. My point is chivalry is "dead" with the feminist movement. Now actually try and argue my point, without just defining terms and going off topic.