Chivalry
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Here's the rub.. men will only be chivalrous when they feel the woman *deserves* to be treated as such. If your man, boyfriend, or crush isn't chivalrous to you.. chances are you don't deserve it (or at least he doesn't think so).
He's probably just an inconsiderate *kitten*. You can be polite and considerate to a person even if they lack a thigh gap. If anybody thinks another individual doesn't "deserve" to have the door held open for them then that person it just rotten in their core.
Hahahahahaha this is the best post I've seen in SP in a while.0 -
A lot of it is just being polite indeed, and I would fully expect a woman to do the same for me (spill my drink = repay one, enter somewhere before me = do not close the door shut in my face).
Very good point. I think most of it is just being polite.So I guess I don't see a dilemma. For me it's not about chivalry, like men should do X and women should do Y. I guess I kind of see it as things that are nice to do for your fellow human being. There are some that I find pointless in this day and age - putting a jacket over a puddle is just stupid, and opening car doors has become obsolete since automatic locks became common place (if you don't have automatic locks you should open the door for your passenger first!).
As for the splitting the bill, I would normally split the bill and pay for the entire bill only when I know the person enough. This is IMHO more logical. This way, the only people I pay stuff for are at the very least people I have a connection with (not some random person who I have a 50% chance of never seeing again). It has never been a problem for me.
Frankly, the word "chivalry" should be banned, as it refers to outdated notions. In particular:
Chivalry
its meaning has been refined to emphasize more ideals such as knightly virtues, honor, courtly love, courtesy, and less martial aspects of the tradition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry
Courly love
The lover (idolizer) accepts the independence of his mistress and tries to make himself worthy of her by acting bravely and honorably (nobly) and by doing whatever deeds she might desire, subjecting himself to a series of tests (ordeals) to prove to her his ardor and commitment. Sexual satisfaction, Paris said, may not have been a goal or even end result, but the love was not entirely Platonic either, as it was based on sexual attraction (see section on sexuality below for further views).
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtly_love0 -
Kate...LOVED your post. Graciousness, in reciprocal politeness, in accepting compliments also seems to be a little lost nowadays. In no way do I equate being a woman or feminine as lesser or on unequal footing from a man. Different, yes...but still equal.
Me too - beautifully put :flowerforyou:
But this, as well:If anybody thinks another individual doesn't "deserve" to have the door held open for them then that person it just rotten in their core.
Chivalry may, or may not, be 'dead' as Zachatta maintains (I'd argue that it isn't, at least in this part of the world, and that feminism and chivalry are not mutually-exclusive, but don't have time right now to elaborate), but courtesy to one's fellow human beings should not be dependent on one's perception of whether the recipient "deserves" it or not. Such an attitude reflects abysmally on the person who has taken it upon themselves to make that judgement, and speaks more of their deserts than those of the person they are judging.0 -
Win.Here's the rub.. men will only be chivalrous when they feel the woman *deserves* to be treated as such. If your man, boyfriend, or crush isn't chivalrous to you.. chances are you don't deserve it (or at least he doesn't think so).
He's probably just an inconsiderate *kitten*. You can be polite and considerate to a person even if they lack a thigh gap. If anybody thinks another individual doesn't "deserve" to have the door held open for them then that person it just rotten in their core.
Hahahahahaha this is the best post I've seen in SP in a while.
I've always held the door for everyone. Male or female. I have gotten funny looks from some women as well. I just smile which sometimes just irritates them even more. :laugh:0 -
I always hold the door open for people, as long as they're not far enough back behind me that if I stand there holding the door they'd feel the need to do the awkward "quick-walk/jog to the door so they're not standing holding the door for me for ages".
Obviously if it happens to be an attractive woman, that makes it all the better haha
Personally I don't see things like that (or replacing a spilt drink etc) as chivalry - it's just good manners, same as the seemingly fading art of saying "please", "thank you" etc.0 -
Performing chivalrous acts, like holding a door open or opening a car door, only takes a few seconds. It's not a matter of going the extra mile or doing something strenuous or exhausting. It should be considered "body language" more than anything else.
If you are on a first date with a guy and he doesn't hold the door open for you, he thinks you aren't worth it. He was probably turned off by something you said (or the way you look.. especially true in first online dating meetings) and isn't ever interested in seeing you again. If your boyfriend doesn't do it, then it's a sign of things to come. He's likely doing to kick you to the curb sooner or later.
In short.. not being chivalrous = he's just not that into you.0 -
Performing chivalrous acts, like holding a door open or opening a car door, only takes a few seconds. It's not a matter of going the extra mile or doing something strenuous or exhausting. It should be considered "body language" more than anything else.
If you are on a first date with a guy and he doesn't hold the door open for you, he thinks you aren't worth it. He was probably turned off by something you said (or the way you look.. especially true in first online dating meetings) and isn't ever interested in seeing you again. If your boyfriend doesn't do it, then it's a sign of things to come. He's likely doing to kick you to the curb sooner or later.
In short.. not being chivalrous = he's just not that into you.
And not holding the door for someone because he thinks you "aren't worth it" = not someone you'd want to date in the first place.0 -
I've held the door for others as much as possible... And I'm still waiting to be considered as a real knight by commoners. :ohwell:0
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In short.. not being chivalrous = he's just not that into you.
I agree to some extent. However I think the crisis of manners has reached a point here at least, where I would argue there are many men and women my age and younger who have simply not been raised to be polite, consider others or go out of their way to help another...whether they are interested in dating them or not.
I have found in general, both European and many American men to be far, far more "gentlemanly" than the average Vancouver male. Happily though, lately I seem to be attracting a certain type...and all of them have had outstanding manners and are a tiny bit more old-fashioned when it comes to this. I'm loving it.
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Performing chivalrous acts, like holding a door open or opening a car door, only takes a few seconds. It's not a matter of going the extra mile or doing something strenuous or exhausting. It should be considered "body language" more than anything else.
If you are on a first date with a guy and he doesn't hold the door open for you, he thinks you aren't worth it. He was probably turned off by something you said (or the way you look.. especially true in first online dating meetings) and isn't ever interested in seeing you again. If your boyfriend doesn't do it, then it's a sign of things to come. He's likely doing to kick you to the curb sooner or later.
In short.. not being chivalrous = he's just not that into you.
Or he's just a d-bag in general. How come its what the woman is doing wrong? What if the guy is just a jerk?
Mike, are you really gonna take a girl out, decide you don't like her and treat her like a d!ck the rest of the night?0 -
Performing chivalrous acts, like holding a door open or opening a car door, only takes a few seconds. It's not a matter of going the extra mile or doing something strenuous or exhausting. It should be considered "body language" more than anything else.
If you are on a first date with a guy and he doesn't hold the door open for you, he thinks you aren't worth it. He was probably turned off by something you said (or the way you look.. especially true in first online dating meetings) and isn't ever interested in seeing you again. If your boyfriend doesn't do it, then it's a sign of things to come. He's likely doing to kick you to the curb sooner or later.
In short.. not being chivalrous = he's just not that into you.
Or he's just a d-bag in general. How come its what the woman is doing wrong? What if the guy is just a jerk?
Mike, are you really gonna take a girl out, decide you don't like her and treat her like a d!ck the rest of the night?
I dont know about mike but the general answer is yes. Most guys I know get more assholeish so the girl become less and less interested and doesnt try to call him back. Girls do it to... they get more babbley or purposely do things to make them unattractive to the man so that he wont call again..
People purposely down play their good qualities and inflate their bad qualities when trying to show they aren't interested in someone else
As for chivalry most of these things are just politeness and I'm all about being polite. Oh male, female, animal or vegetable if you spill my drink your damn sure getting me another one0 -
In short.. not being chivalrous = he's just not that into you.
I agree to some extent. However I think the crisis of manners has reached a point here at least, where I would argue there are many men and women my age and younger who have simply not been raised to be polite, consider others or go out of their way to help another...whether they are interested in dating them or not.
I have found in general, both European and many American men to be far, far more "gentlemanly" than the average Vancouver male. Happily though, lately I seem to be attracting a certain type...and all of them have had outstanding manners and are a tiny bit more old-fashioned when it comes to this. I'm loving it.
Yes, I agree. I dont know a man that wouldnt hold a door open or buy a lady a drink if he spilled it. Nor a woman that would let a door slam in a guys face or not offer to buy a drink she spilled. That's just good manners!
Treating women impolitely cos you dont fancy them??? Whatever next!! :huh:0 -
So I guess I don't see a dilemma. For me it's not about chivalry, like men should do X and women should do Y. I guess I kind of see it as things that are nice to do for your fellow human being. There are some that I find pointless in this day and age - putting a jacket over a puddle is just stupid, and opening car doors has become obsolete since automatic locks became common place (if you don't have automatic locks you should open the door for your passenger first!).
This. I think it's ALL about good manners. (which most people don't possess anymore) I think that there are things that you just DO. You don't ask why, you just do them.
I walked into a store behind a man last night who didn't hold the door and almost hit me with it. Sorry, sorry. I was under the impression that the social norm was to hold the door for anyone. I'll return to my misanthropic state of mind now.0 -
All men have the ability and will exhibit chivalrous behavior when need be. They will hold doors open, pull chairs out, and be a perfect gentleman if he feels the need to. Every man knows the basics when it comes to chivalry, it's just one of those things men know how to do.
Here's the rub.. men will only be chivalrous when they feel the woman *deserves* to be treated as such. If your man, boyfriend, or crush isn't chivalrous to you.. chances are you don't deserve it (or at least he doesn't think so).
It's not every woman's god given right to be showered with chivalrous males wherever they go. There comes a point where they have to earn it. Elderly women are the exception.. every man should open doors, etc etc for elderly woman.
Curious! In your relationships, have you always opened car doors, pulled chairs out, etc... throughout the whole relationship? Do you find you start slacking after you get comfortable with her?0 -
I didn't write the article, it's from a website. I didn't say that quote. Just so you know!!
That is fine, I apologize for claiming you said something different, however my point still stands. Society deems that chivalry is when men treat women differently, regardless of what technical definition chivalry has.Mmkay, try rereading what I said and get back to me.
If you meant anything other than women are capable of being "knights" just as much as men, you did a terrible job articulating.
You defined "Chivalry", which again doesn't apply because the technical definition isn't the one society has placed on the word, example: "Liberal" should mean something different than what it does in America.
Then you made the claim women can do this as well. Try again if you meant something completely different. The problem here isn't comprehension, it is articulation.
Regardless you are arguing arbitrary things that don't apply to my point. My point is chivalry is "dead" with the feminist movement. Now actually try and argue my point, without just defining terms and going off topic.
God it's a good thing you're so pretty.0 -
So I guess I don't see a dilemma. For me it's not about chivalry, like men should do X and women should do Y. I guess I kind of see it as things that are nice to do for your fellow human being. There are some that I find pointless in this day and age - putting a jacket over a puddle is just stupid, and opening car doors has become obsolete since automatic locks became common place (if you don't have automatic locks you should open the door for your passenger first!).
This. I think it's ALL about good manners. (which most people don't possess anymore) I think that there are things that you just DO. You don't ask why, you just do them.
I walked into a store behind a man last night who didn't hold the door and almost hit me with it. Sorry, sorry. I was under the impression that the social norm was to hold the door for anyone. I'll return to my misanthropic state of mind now.
I think what you need to ask yourself here, is what you did to deserve the door being slammed in your face. Maybe, in the words of our favorite people, you should try and be more pretty next time.
(I kid of course, you are a beautiful lady and that guy was a douchemongerer)0 -
So I guess I don't see a dilemma. For me it's not about chivalry, like men should do X and women should do Y. I guess I kind of see it as things that are nice to do for your fellow human being. There are some that I find pointless in this day and age - putting a jacket over a puddle is just stupid, and opening car doors has become obsolete since automatic locks became common place (if you don't have automatic locks you should open the door for your passenger first!).
This. I think it's ALL about good manners. (which most people don't possess anymore) I think that there are things that you just DO. You don't ask why, you just do them.
I walked into a store behind a man last night who didn't hold the door and almost hit me with it. Sorry, sorry. I was under the impression that the social norm was to hold the door for anyone. I'll return to my misanthropic state of mind now.
Really?!? Wow... Maybe it is just me, but when I see an attractive woman coming, I will hesitate and hold the door longer than I would have otherwise. To be nice, but maybe even to spark some communication.
Of course in my previous life working at Lowes, many guys there would ignore women shoppers b/c they wouldn't know what they wanted. Whereas I would jump at that opportunity to help them out and again maybe spark some communication. Starting to think I am just an atypical male.0 -
So I guess I don't see a dilemma. For me it's not about chivalry, like men should do X and women should do Y. I guess I kind of see it as things that are nice to do for your fellow human being. There are some that I find pointless in this day and age - putting a jacket over a puddle is just stupid, and opening car doors has become obsolete since automatic locks became common place (if you don't have automatic locks you should open the door for your passenger first!).
This. I think it's ALL about good manners. (which most people don't possess anymore) I think that there are things that you just DO. You don't ask why, you just do them.
I walked into a store behind a man last night who didn't hold the door and almost hit me with it. Sorry, sorry. I was under the impression that the social norm was to hold the door for anyone. I'll return to my misanthropic state of mind now.
Really?!? Wow... Maybe it is just me, but when I see an attractive woman coming, I will hesitate and hold the door longer than I would have otherwise. To be nice, but maybe even to spark some communication.
Of course in my previous life working at Lowes, many guys there would ignore women shoppers b/c they wouldn't know what they wanted. Whereas I would jump at that opportunity to help them out and again maybe spark some communication. Starting to think I am just an atypical male.
That gets really annoying. I come across it a lot when I go to Autozone or O'reilly's. I do basic car maintenance on my own and if the store doesn't know me, they always talk down on me or ignore me.0 -
Mike, are you really gonna take a girl out, decide you don't like her and treat her like a d!ck the rest of the night?
Implying that not pulling out her chair, opening the door, and walking on the street-side of the sidewalk is being a d!ck?
I don't view it as that at all. Chivalry is that extra cherry on top of the sundae. It's doing that extra step in making sure that your date is special. And no, I will not go that extra step if my date rubs me the wrong way.
Being a d!ck would entail making fun of her crocked teeth, having her pay the entire bill, and start flirting with other girls at the bar.0 -
All men have the ability and will exhibit chivalrous behavior when need be. They will hold doors open, pull chairs out, and be a perfect gentleman if he feels the need to. Every man knows the basics when it comes to chivalry, it's just one of those things men know how to do.
Here's the rub.. men will only be chivalrous when they feel the woman *deserves* to be treated as such. If your man, boyfriend, or crush isn't chivalrous to you.. chances are you don't deserve it (or at least he doesn't think so).
It's not every woman's god given right to be showered with chivalrous males wherever they go. There comes a point where they have to earn it. Elderly women are the exception.. every man should open doors, etc etc for elderly woman.
Curious! In your relationships, have you always opened car doors, pulled chairs out, etc... throughout the whole relationship? Do you find you start slacking after you get comfortable with her?
Absolutely. I'm not one for relationships and I've only had a small handful of them in my life, but if I was crazy about the girl, I would be chivalrous as possible whenever we would leave the house.
Once a guy stops doing those little things, he's starting to "check out" of the relationship.0
