Chivalry

meshashesha2012

Performing chivalrous acts, like holding a door open or opening a car door, only takes a few seconds. It's not a matter of going the extra mile or doing something strenuous or exhausting. It should be considered "body language" more than anything else.

If you are on a first date with a guy and he doesn't hold the door open for you, he thinks you aren't worth it. He was probably turned off by something you said (or the way you look.. especially true in first online dating meetings) and isn't ever interested in seeing you again. If your boyfriend doesn't do it, then it's a sign of things to come. He's likely doing to kick you to the curb sooner or later.

In short.. not being chivalrous = he's just not that into you.

Or he's just a d-bag in general. How come its what the woman is doing wrong? What if the guy is just a jerk?

Mike, are you really gonna take a girl out, decide you don't like her and treat her like a d!ck the rest of the night?

I dont know about mike but the general answer is yes. Most guys I know get more assholeish so the girl become less and less interested and doesnt try to call him back. Girls do it to... they get more babbley or purposely do things to make them unattractive to the man so that he wont call again..
People purposely down play their good qualities and inflate their bad qualities when trying to show they aren't interested in someone else

yep.. it's sometimes a passive/aggressive way to break up with someone without having to man (or woman) up and say i dont want to see you anymore.

and for the treated i dont think anyone deserves anything right off the bat, either to be treated well or treated poorly. people get what they accept.

i've definitely abruptly ended dates with guys who were being dbags, told them they were being sh*theads and peaced out. what i dont get are the women who got on multiple dates with these guys. those women IMO have no complaining leg to stand on because obviously a part of them is OK with being treated like crap.

christine24t

Mike, are you really gonna take a girl out, decide you don't like her and treat her like a d!ck the rest of the night?

Implying that not pulling out her chair, opening the door, and walking on the street-side of the sidewalk is being a d!ck?

I don't view it as that at all. Chivalry is that extra cherry on top of the sundae. It's doing that extra step in making sure that your date is special. And no, I will not go that extra step if my date rubs me the wrong way.

Being a d!ck would entail making fun of her crocked teeth, having her pay the entire bill, and start flirting with other girls at the bar.

So are you one of those people who normally doesn't hold doors open for others (unless they're hot)?

Mellie289

Of course in my previous life working at Lowes, many guys there would ignore women shoppers b/c they wouldn't know what they wanted. Whereas I would jump at that opportunity to help them out and again maybe spark some communication. Starting to think I am just an atypical male.

Wow! I usually shop at Home Depot, not Lowes, and I have always had their employees offer me help whether I needed it or not. A couple visits to the store were ridiculous with someone asking if I needed any help almost every isle - although none of them potential dating material - all married or much too young for me! LOL!

Mellie289

Much of what is listed in the OP, I see also as good manners. I will hold the door open for someone behind me as much as I expect someone ahead of me to not let the door slam in my face. I also agree that a lot of this has to do with being gracious, as already pointed out, and I just say thank you if someone holds the door open and waits for me to walk through. I am not likely to accept a seat on the bus since I am able-bodied and I think the seat should go to someone who needs it - I will give my seat up for women with small children, who are pregnant or to the elderly as everyone should! That's not chivalry, that's just common decency.

I would also offer to buy someone a drink if I spilled theirs since that, to me, is about fairness. I would probably turn down someone buying me a drink, but graciously accept if they insisted since they did spill mine and it would probably make them feel better to do so. Shouldn't we do things that make people feel good? I think we should try, in every situation, to make the interaction with other people as pleasant as possible and not fight someone over something like a spilled drink they would like to replace. If you graciously accept, everyone wins!

As for splitting the check versus a date paying, this to me isn't chivalry either. It's courting behavior! Just like other mammals, we female Homo sapiens must be courted by males of our species and this is a way that many men will begin to woo a woman. This has nothing to do with what I consider feminism - expecting equal pay and respect in the work place for equal work and ability.

Chivalry, to me, is when a guy steps in front of me to protect me from pushing in a crowd or a fight breaking out nearby. It's when someone offers to rescue me from a spider, or to come over and deal with the dead possum in my garage (an offer I should have accepted in retrospect). These are all things that rare men will do and they won't do them for all women - just the ones they feel are special (so yes, chivalry IS about treating a woman like she's special!) The feminist movement has done a lot for women of our time, but I think the concept of feminism has over-extended itself into dating in a way that hurts women (and men) rather than making our lives better as it has done in the workplace.

TheKitsune6

Chivalry, to me, is when a guy steps in front of me to protect me from pushing in a crowd or a fight breaking out nearby. It's when someone offers to rescue me from a spider, or to come over and deal with the dead possum in my garage (an offer I should have accepted in retrospect). These are all things that rare men will do and they won't do them for all women - just the ones they feel are special (so yes, chivalry IS about treating a woman like she's special!)

What does this say about me that I'm the friend people call to handle spiders, possums and household stuff? I also step in to do the protection - I have a very strong sense of loyalty and when I feel a friend is being threatened I move in to block them from potential harm.

Mellie289

Chivalry, to me, is when a guy steps in front of me to protect me from pushing in a crowd or a fight breaking out nearby. It's when someone offers to rescue me from a spider, or to come over and deal with the dead possum in my garage (an offer I should have accepted in retrospect). These are all things that rare men will do and they won't do them for all women - just the ones they feel are special (so yes, chivalry IS about treating a woman like she's special!)

What does this say about me that I'm the friend people call to handle spiders, possums and household stuff? I also step in to do the protection - I have a very strong sense of loyalty and when I feel a friend is being threatened I move in to block them from potential harm.

It says that you have some of the strong character qualities that we associate with brave knights if you would put yourself in harm's way to protect a friend! On the other hand, I'm sure any mom would do the same for her child, so...again, what is chivalry really? (We need some dragons to be slain!) I just don't see what the article is talking about as chivalry when it's the kind of everyday actions that should fall under the category of manners and decency (my main point) that a good person should show, regardless of gender and the "special" behavior is really courting, not chivalry.

TheKitsune6

Chivalry, to me, is when a guy steps in front of me to protect me from pushing in a crowd or a fight breaking out nearby. It's when someone offers to rescue me from a spider, or to come over and deal with the dead possum in my garage (an offer I should have accepted in retrospect). These are all things that rare men will do and they won't do them for all women - just the ones they feel are special (so yes, chivalry IS about treating a woman like she's special!)

What does this say about me that I'm the friend people call to handle spiders, possums and household stuff? I also step in to do the protection - I have a very strong sense of loyalty and when I feel a friend is being threatened I move in to block them from potential harm.

It says that you have some of the strong character qualities that we associate with brave knights if you would put yourself in harm's way to protect a friend! On the other hand, I'm sure any mom would do the same for her child, so...again, what is chivalry really? (We need some dragons to be slain!) I just don't see what the article is talking about as chivalry when it's the kind of everyday actions that should fall under the category of manners and decency (my main point) that a good person should show, regardless of gender and the "special" behavior is really courting, not chivalry.

I don't slay dragons! I tame them! Muahahaaaa!

meshashesha2012

Chivalry, to me, is when a guy steps in front of me to protect me from pushing in a crowd or a fight breaking out nearby. It's when someone offers to rescue me from a spider, or to come over and deal with the dead possum in my garage (an offer I should have accepted in retrospect). These are all things that rare men will do and they won't do them for all women - just the ones they feel are special (so yes, chivalry IS about treating a woman like she's special!)

this a is a good point as well and you're right it's not something that you see all the time.

i think THIS is the type chivalry you're less likely to see if the guy doesn't find you attractive since many guys aren't going to want to potentially put themselves into harm's way for a woman he's not interested in. of course i'm no saying no guys would

TheKitsune6

Chivalry, to me, is when a guy steps in front of me to protect me from pushing in a crowd or a fight breaking out nearby. It's when someone offers to rescue me from a spider, or to come over and deal with the dead possum in my garage (an offer I should have accepted in retrospect). These are all things that rare men will do and they won't do them for all women - just the ones they feel are special (so yes, chivalry IS about treating a woman like she's special!)

this a is a good point as well and you're right it's not something that you see all the time.

i think THIS is the type chivalry you're less likely to see if the guy doesn't find you attractive since many guys aren't going to want to potentially put themselves into harm's way for a woman he's not interested in. of course i'm no saying no guys would

But in that case it's just showing the person you care for... that you care for them. Everyone should do this with their loved ones. Maybe not jumping into fights but we all have different ways of expressing that, right?

meshashesha2012

Chivalry, to me, is when a guy steps in front of me to protect me from pushing in a crowd or a fight breaking out nearby. It's when someone offers to rescue me from a spider, or to come over and deal with the dead possum in my garage (an offer I should have accepted in retrospect). These are all things that rare men will do and they won't do them for all women - just the ones they feel are special (so yes, chivalry IS about treating a woman like she's special!)

this a is a good point as well and you're right it's not something that you see all the time.

i think THIS is the type chivalry you're less likely to see if the guy doesn't find you attractive since many guys aren't going to want to potentially put themselves into harm's way for a woman he's not interested in. of course i'm no saying no guys would

But in that case it's just showing the person you care for... that you care for them. Everyone should do this with their loved ones. Maybe not jumping into fights but we all have different ways of expressing that, right?

of course.

but here's one example of traditional chivalry when i had just started my new gym i was in the weight room.

i was the only woman there. there was a dude there who confronted me about using HIS bench to bench press on because HE was still using it. before i even got a chance to remind him that the physical laws of the universe call BS on me being able to use the bench when he's using it without sitting in his lap, 2 other guys rushed over and told the guy to STFU. i've been in the weight room when 2 other guys get into a similar situation and no one rushing over to step in for them. i can only assume the guys who came over in my defense (even though i didnt need it and had a pretty SWEET comeback lined up to use :sad: ) did so because i'm a woman. and i didn't know these guys so i wasnt a loved one.

i can't even say it's because i was new because i've been a member now for almost a year, see the same faces and they know me. a few months ago i had a somewhat similar situation where a guy stepped in to tell another guy to back off before i even had a chance to say something

atjays

I'd very much like it if girls just went with the flow. If I bump a drink out of your hand or offer to pay for lunch/dinner, just take it at that and let it go. No it doesn't mean I want in your pants, it just means I'm a decent person and thanking you for giving some of your time.

I think my biggest pet peeve when going out with a girl, someone I'm dating, is her insisting on paying. I don't know why it's so deeply etched into my head, but I'm thoroughly embarrassed if a girl pays for me. I understand the politeness of her gesture and if she really wants to give me the money after the fact that's fine, but I feel like such a punk/scrub if she pays for a movie/dinner or something...

christine24t

Chivalry, to me, is when a guy steps in front of me to protect me from pushing in a crowd or a fight breaking out nearby. It's when someone offers to rescue me from a spider, or to come over and deal with the dead possum in my garage (an offer I should have accepted in retrospect). These are all things that rare men will do and they won't do them for all women - just the ones they feel are special (so yes, chivalry IS about treating a woman like she's special!)

this a is a good point as well and you're right it's not something that you see all the time.

i think THIS is the type chivalry you're less likely to see if the guy doesn't find you attractive since many guys aren't going to want to potentially put themselves into harm's way for a woman he's not interested in. of course i'm no saying no guys would

But in that case it's just showing the person you care for... that you care for them. Everyone should do this with their loved ones. Maybe not jumping into fights but we all have different ways of expressing that, right?

of course.

but here's one example of traditional chivalry when i had just started my new gym i was in the weight room.

i was the only woman there. there was a dude there who confronted me about using HIS bench to bench press on because HE was still using it. before i even got a chance to remind him that the physical laws of the universe call BS on me being able to use the bench when he's using it without sitting in his lap, 2 other guys rushed over and told the guy to STFU. i've been in the weight room when 2 other guys get into a similar situation and no one rushing over to step in for them. i can only assume the guys who came over in my defense (even though i didnt need it and had a pretty SWEET comeback lined up to use :sad: ) did so because i'm a woman. and i didn't know these guys so i wasnt a loved one.

i can't even say it's because i was new because i've been a member now for almost a year, see the same faces and they know me. a few months ago i had a somewhat similar situation where a guy stepped in to tell another guy to back off before i even had a chance to say something

People are massive jerks at the gym sometimes! I'm glad those guys defended you.

dbrightwell1270

I didn't read all of the posts but the analogy about buying someone a new drink because if you accidently damaged someones property you would pay for the repairs has me thinking that if I totalled your car, I wouldn't pay the replacement value for your car. I would just pay the current market value of the car. So how much should I pay for spilling half a beer that's been getting warm for the last 20 minutes you've been drinking it? My guess is that it isn't worth much so I don't really owe you anything.

flimflamfloz

I didn't read all of the posts but the analogy about buying someone a new drink because if you accidently damaged someones property you would pay for the repairs has me thinking that if I totalled your car, I wouldn't pay the replacement value for your car. I would just pay the current market value of the car. So how much should I pay for spilling half a beer that's been getting warm for the last 20 minutes you've been drinking it? My guess is that it isn't worth much so I don't really owe you anything.

:laugh: yeah.

I confess (<- wrong thread) that I didn't repay a guy's drink once. I was jumping around like crazy in a pub/club and the idiot was nonchalantly walking around the dance floor with his drink in hand!

I'm still a knight in my mind, when I close my eyes though.

jkandktmom

I'd very much like it if girls just went with the flow. If I bump a drink out of your hand or offer to pay for lunch/dinner, just take it at that and let it go. No it doesn't mean I want in your pants, it just means I'm a decent person and thanking you for giving some of your time.

I think my biggest pet peeve when going out with a girl, someone I'm dating, is her insisting on paying. I don't know why it's so deeply etched into my head, but I'm thoroughly embarrassed if a girl pays for me. I understand the politeness of her gesture and if she really wants to give me the money after the fact that's fine, but I feel like such a punk/scrub if she pays for a movie/dinner or something...

I have an issue with men payin for me, especially when we just start dating. I feel like because they bought me a meal I "owe" them something. I would rather pay for myself and not feel like I owe them anything.

TheKitsune6

So how much should I pay for spilling half a beer that's been getting warm for the last 20 minutes you've been drinking it?

What kind of monster lets that happen to a beer?!

Mellie289

I'd very much like it if girls just went with the flow. If I bump a drink out of your hand or offer to pay for lunch/dinner, just take it at that and let it go. No it doesn't mean I want in your pants, it just means I'm a decent person and thanking you for giving some of your time.

I think my biggest pet peeve when going out with a girl, someone I'm dating, is her insisting on paying. I don't know why it's so deeply etched into my head, but I'm thoroughly embarrassed if a girl pays for me. I understand the politeness of her gesture and if she really wants to give me the money after the fact that's fine, but I feel like such a punk/scrub if she pays for a movie/dinner or something...

I have an issue with men payin for me, especially when we just start dating. I feel like because they bought me a meal I "owe" them something. I would rather pay for myself and not feel like I owe them anything.

The key is to value yourself enough that you will consider the time you spend with him on the date, and the respect and courtesy you extend him in polite communication after the date (as opposed to poofing) worth the price of a meal. That's what I think is "owed" a date, and I see nothing wrong with owing a person a little courtesy and honest communication.

It's not a business transaction where some service is rendered for a fee - that would be prostitution. Besides, you don't see working gals hanging on the street with signs saying they'll do certain acts for a drink or a meal.

flimflamfloz

The key is to value yourself enough that you will consider the time you spend with him on the date, and the respect and courtesy you extend him in polite communication after the date (as opposed to poofing) worth the price of a meal. That's what I think is "owed" a date, and I see nothing wrong with owing a person a little courtesy and honest communication.

It's a very one sided, arrogant and entitled view of the situation...

The man also spends "time with you on the date", probably respects you and is courteous by communicating politely after the date (as opposed to poofing). So... is this supposed to come for free?
I won't contradict you though that women generally value themselves higher than men in terms of dating, i.e. they consider they are the prize, that only the man worthy of them will deserve and have a higher intrinsic value than men. It's fair as society bred us (all of us) this way... Just look at the guilt men feel when they don't get to pay for a meal to realise this!

This explains why one of the pillars of "Pickup artists" strategies is to throw this higher value women are convinced they have by the window (by nagging, etc.), which is destabilising for many women ("This man values himself enough to ignore me!").

PS: yes, I'm from the new school of dating obviously, not the traditional old school!

Some more info, if you are interested in the biology behind this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mate_Choice

TheKitsune6

I'm from the new school of dating obviously, not the traditional old school!

I'm a dating school dropout because *kitten* DA POLICE!

Rules are dumb. Do what makes you happy and find someone that fits into that paradigm. If it makes you more unhappy to be alone with the standards, the adjust your expectations and go from there. It's really quite simple.

flimflamfloz

I'm from the new school of dating obviously, not the traditional old school!

I'm a dating school dropout because *kitten* DA POLICE!

Rules are dumb. Do what makes you happy and find someone that fits into that paradigm. If it makes you more unhappy to be alone with the standards, the adjust your expectations and go from there. It's really quite simple.

Rules (guidelines as they should be called) are dumb, perhaps, but are also useful to frame interactions and are a general measure of what people should expect from an interaction.

For example: the man should pay for the first meal is one guideline, a man won't get a *kitten* in the pub on a first date in public is another.
For someone who isn't very experienced with dating, it can be useful to gauge what the current practice is, then you can go free form from here.

What is dumb really is following these guidelines as rules that cannot be transgressed... but I know I have benefited greatly from reading this kind of material in terms of dating.