Improving Marathon times

pabscabs

Hi,

Firstly, Happy New Year to everyone.

My local running club is very popular and thus I'm on a waiting list to join. Obviously, I'm going to keep training.

As some of you ARE the marathon I was wondering if and how you improved you marathon times?

Did you just up your weekly mileage to 50 or 70 miles a week concetrating on distance or did you do more speedwork like tempo runs and intervals?

My next marathon isn't until October so I was thinking of working on getting quicker at shorter distances before I start a long build up to the marathon. Is this a waste of time and should I just concetrate on max mileage? My mileage at the moment is hovering around 35 to 44 miles depending on the week.

Any info is welcomed.

Thanks
Pabs

CarsonRuns

My next marathon isn't until October so I was thinking of working on getting quicker at shorter distances before I start a long build up to the marathon. Is this a waste of time and should I just concetrate on max mileage? My mileage at the moment is hovering around 35 to 44 miles depending on the week.

You will get quicker at shorter distances and longer distances by running higher mileage.

My marathon time improved dramatically from doing more mileage over time. Going into my last training cycle, I was running a base of around 50 miles per week and topped out at 80 miles per week. I ran a 14 minute PR and I think it was about a 6 minute negative split.

My blog about it is here: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/CarsonRuns

My training log is here: http://www.runningahead.com/logs/f395f426a792443989cc9b545ae45445

The marathon was in October, so July is where the build-up really started.

Mceastes

I agree, I got much faster in long distances (half and full marathons) by increasing my overall mileage. Even without doing speed work, I also dropped my 5k time by over a minute just from the mileage increase. The fact that my 5k pace improved (went from 9:00 miles to 8:30) when I don't even train for marathons at that pace showed me that just increasing overall miles per week makes you faster.

Another tip, I increased the speed of my long runs. I didn't run at race pace, but I only ran about 30 seconds slower per mile instead of 2 minutes slower and I think that made a difference too.

CarsonRuns

Another tip, I increased the speed of my long runs. I didn't run at race pace, but I only ran about 30 seconds slower per mile instead of 2 minutes slower and I think that made a difference too.

I think a lot of this depends on what your easy run pace is anyway, as well as your race pace. I'm not one to advocate REALLY slowing down on a long run. If your easy run pace is 10:00 per mile, run your long run at that pace too. I don't see the need to slow it down to 11:00 or 12:00. Then, as your fitness improves, you'll find that the second half of the long run you'll run faster than the first half. So, if your marathon pace is 9:00 per mile, then doing your long runs between 9:30 and 10:00 per mile is spot on. If your marathon pace is 7:00 per, then I wouldn't run my long run at 7:30. Probably just a little too fast.

pabscabs

Thanks so much for this. I have to say I followed the training plans telling me to run 90 seconds slower on the long runs my first time out and that's where the marathon really showed me up.

I never really understood how running 20 miles at 10:30 a mile would ever prepare you for 26.2 at 9:00 miles. Running 40 miles a week with a few runs at race pace I felt didn't prepare me properly for a marathon. Thanks @Mceastes

I run every week to get in and out of work. I can easily up my mileage and I have loads of time to do it without injury. Doubles are easy for me I just leave the odd bike trip out.

@CarsonRuns I really appreciate the links. There's a lot of information on the web and it's hard to decipher what you should be doing to improve. I always found it very hard to run slower than my normal easy pace, almost unnatural.

Sounds like I'm going to be saving even more on petrol the net few months !!

Thanks again
Pabs

MSRunner23

Increased mileage and long tempo runs (7-10 miles) will work wonders for your time. Also, run the last few miles of your long runs at race pace if you can.

scottb81

The single most important predictor of marathon performance is average weekly mileage. If you want to improve then run more.

In my opinion you should aim for averaging around 60 miles per week minimum for the 20 weeks leading up to the race for best results.

Also, most of the mileage, around 80%, should be run easy, around 75% max HR if you use a HRM. Trying to get faster by running faster all the time will not work. It will only make you really tired and eventually overwhelm your body's ability to adapt during high volume training.

pabscabs

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I've already started to add mileage. I'm hoping to get to a base of 50 miles per week in the next month or so. For the marathon I'll then up the mileage to between 60 and 80 max. I'll let you know in October the results but I should see changes in the half's and 10 mile races in the coming months.

@CarsonRuns I spent some time looking at the resources you provided and I have one question. Do you have to slow down near the end of races so the sensor can pick up your race chip? I don't think my car goes as fast as you.

I think I'm pretty clear about what I need to do. One of which is never ever race against @CarsonRuns.

justrunjon

The single most important predictor of marathon performance is average weekly mileage. If you want to improve then run more.

In my opinion you should aim for averaging around 60 miles per week minimum for the 20 weeks leading up to the race for best results.

Also, most of the mileage, around 80%, should be run easy, around 75% max HR if you use a HRM. Trying to get faster by running faster all the time will not work. It will only make you really tired and eventually overwhelm your body's ability to adapt during high volume training.

Really?????????????????

CarsonRuns

The single most important predictor of marathon performance is average weekly mileage. If you want to improve then run more.

In my opinion you should aim for averaging around 60 miles per week minimum for the 20 weeks leading up to the race for best results.

Also, most of the mileage, around 80%, should be run easy, around 75% max HR if you use a HRM. Trying to get faster by running faster all the time will not work. It will only make you really tired and eventually overwhelm your body's ability to adapt during high volume training.

Really?????????????????

Yes, really.

CarsonRuns

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I've already started to add mileage. I'm hoping to get to a base of 50 miles per week in the next month or so. For the marathon I'll then up the mileage to between 60 and 80 max. I'll let you know in October the results but I should see changes in the half's and 10 mile races in the coming months.

@CarsonRuns I spent some time looking at the resources you provided and I have one question. Do you have to slow down near the end of races so the sensor can pick up your race chip? I don't think my car goes as fast as you.

I think I'm pretty clear about what I need to do. One of which is never ever race against @CarsonRuns.

You are far too kind.

It's taken me 9 years to get to this point. My first race was a 28 minute 5K in 2005. All I've done is just run...a lot. Most of it, probably over 80% of the miles, at a conversational pace.

justrunjon

The single most important predictor of marathon performance is average weekly mileage. If you want to improve then run more.

In my opinion you should aim for averaging around 60 miles per week minimum for the 20 weeks leading up to the race for best results.

Also, most of the mileage, around 80%, should be run easy, around 75% max HR if you use a HRM. Trying to get faster by running faster all the time will not work. It will only make you really tired and eventually overwhelm your body's ability to adapt during high volume training.

Really?????????????????

Yes, really.

please please let me know how milage has anything to do with predicting performance?

scottb81

The single most important predictor of marathon performance is average weekly mileage. If you want to improve then run more.

In my opinion you should aim for averaging around 60 miles per week minimum for the 20 weeks leading up to the race for best results.

Also, most of the mileage, around 80%, should be run easy, around 75% max HR if you use a HRM. Trying to get faster by running faster all the time will not work. It will only make you really tired and eventually overwhelm your body's ability to adapt during high volume training.

Really?????????????????

Yes, really.

please please let me know how milage has anything to do with predicting performance?

Because about 99% of the energy used in a marathon is from aerobic pathways and the biggest predictor of aerobic fitness is average weekly mileage. Anyone looking to improve their marathon performance can best do that by improving aerobic capacity and that is done by running lots of miles at the appropriate intensity year after year.

The more miles one runs and the longer they keep at it the greater their aerobic capacity will be within their own personal genetic limit. It probably would take about 10 years of constant high mileage running to approach that limit.

justrunjon

The single most important predictor of marathon performance is average weekly mileage. If you want to improve then run more.

In my opinion you should aim for averaging around 60 miles per week minimum for the 20 weeks leading up to the race for best results.

Also, most of the mileage, around 80%, should be run easy, around 75% max HR if you use a HRM. Trying to get faster by running faster all the time will not work. It will only make you really tired and eventually overwhelm your body's ability to adapt during high volume training.

Really?????????????????

Yes, really.

please please let me know how milage has anything to do with predicting performance?

Because about 99% of the energy used in a marathon is from aerobic pathways and the biggest predictor of aerobic fitness is average weekly mileage. Anyone looking to improve their marathon performance can best do that by improving aerobic capacity and that is done by running lots of miles at the appropriate intensity year after year.

The more miles one runs and the longer they keep at it the greater their aerobic capacity will be within their own personal genetic limit. It probably would take about 10 years of constant high mileage running to approach that limit.

So you are telling me someone who runs 60 miles a week will run a quicker marathon than those that do 40 miles per week?

CarsonRuns

The single most important predictor of marathon performance is average weekly mileage. If you want to improve then run more.

In my opinion you should aim for averaging around 60 miles per week minimum for the 20 weeks leading up to the race for best results.

Also, most of the mileage, around 80%, should be run easy, around 75% max HR if you use a HRM. Trying to get faster by running faster all the time will not work. It will only make you really tired and eventually overwhelm your body's ability to adapt during high volume training.

Really?????????????????

Yes, really.

please please let me know how milage has anything to do with predicting performance?

Because about 99% of the energy used in a marathon is from aerobic pathways and the biggest predictor of aerobic fitness is average weekly mileage. Anyone looking to improve their marathon performance can best do that by improving aerobic capacity and that is done by running lots of miles at the appropriate intensity year after year.

The more miles one runs and the longer they keep at it the greater their aerobic capacity will be within their own personal genetic limit. It probably would take about 10 years of constant high mileage running to approach that limit.

So you are telling me someone who runs 60 miles a week will run a quicker marathon than those that do 40 miles per week?

Average weekly mileage over time. Aerobic fitness is built over time, but I suspect you already know this. Of course, you can have some one run 40 miles per week and run a faster marathon that someone running 60 miles per week. But how many miles did that 40 mpw runner run over the last 5 to 10 years? That's the key ingredient. Cumulative miles.

scottb81

The single most important predictor of marathon performance is average weekly mileage. If you want to improve then run more.

In my opinion you should aim for averaging around 60 miles per week minimum for the 20 weeks leading up to the race for best results.

Also, most of the mileage, around 80%, should be run easy, around 75% max HR if you use a HRM. Trying to get faster by running faster all the time will not work. It will only make you really tired and eventually overwhelm your body's ability to adapt during high volume training.

Really?????????????????

Yes, really.

please please let me know how milage has anything to do with predicting performance?

Because about 99% of the energy used in a marathon is from aerobic pathways and the biggest predictor of aerobic fitness is average weekly mileage. Anyone looking to improve their marathon performance can best do that by improving aerobic capacity and that is done by running lots of miles at the appropriate intensity year after year.

The more miles one runs and the longer they keep at it the greater their aerobic capacity will be within their own personal genetic limit. It probably would take about 10 years of constant high mileage running to approach that limit.

So you are telling me someone who runs 60 miles a week will run a quicker marathon than those that do 40 miles per week?

Someone who runs 40 miles a week would run a faster marathon if he ran 60 miles a week.

There are too many other variables involved to isolate one variable and compare 2 different people.

justrunjon

The single most important predictor of marathon performance is average weekly mileage. If you want to improve then run more.

In my opinion you should aim for averaging around 60 miles per week minimum for the 20 weeks leading up to the race for best results.

Also, most of the mileage, around 80%, should be run easy, around 75% max HR if you use a HRM. Trying to get faster by running faster all the time will not work. It will only make you really tired and eventually overwhelm your body's ability to adapt during high volume training.

Really?????????????????

Yes, really.

please please let me know how milage has anything to do with predicting performance?

Because about 99% of the energy used in a marathon is from aerobic pathways and the biggest predictor of aerobic fitness is average weekly mileage. Anyone looking to improve their marathon performance can best do that by improving aerobic capacity and that is done by running lots of miles at the appropriate intensity year after year.

The more miles one runs and the longer they keep at it the greater their aerobic capacity will be within their own personal genetic limit. It probably would take about 10 years of constant high mileage running to approach that limit.

So you are telling me someone who runs 60 miles a week will run a quicker marathon than those that do 40 miles per week?

Someone who runs 40 miles a week would run a faster marathon if he ran 60 miles a week.

There are too many other variables involved to isolate one variable and compare 2 different people.

You have just contradicted yourself! way too many variables! Either way its poor advice to tell a newbie runner to up there milage to 60+ a week to improve times! what about intervals, what about tempo runs, you yourself have picked out one variable and said go and do that like its gospel!

pabscabs

@justrunjon thank you for your input. I have read all the posts. You haven't said what you would suggest would help improve marathon times. I had been doing tempo runs and intervals before. To be honest I didn't think that helped me much at mile 18 in the marathon but I'm not an expert, far from it.

I am a relative newbie runner. I have been running 3 years. I already run between 35 and 40 miles a week. By that I mean I run it EVERY week.

What I understand is being suggested is I up my mileage per week but also that more of the runs are done closer to marathon pace. Longer tempo runs. This makes sense to me. I have been running long enough to know I need to increase the mileage slowly.

I want to improve my times over years. I'm not expecting to run go from 4:30 to sub 4 this year. If you have other suggestions I'm geniunely intertested. Have you found intervals and tempos have a big effect?

scottb81

The single most important predictor of marathon performance is average weekly mileage. If you want to improve then run more.

In my opinion you should aim for averaging around 60 miles per week minimum for the 20 weeks leading up to the race for best results.

Also, most of the mileage, around 80%, should be run easy, around 75% max HR if you use a HRM. Trying to get faster by running faster all the time will not work. It will only make you really tired and eventually overwhelm your body's ability to adapt during high volume training.

Really?????????????????

Yes, really.

please please let me know how milage has anything to do with predicting performance?

Because about 99% of the energy used in a marathon is from aerobic pathways and the biggest predictor of aerobic fitness is average weekly mileage. Anyone looking to improve their marathon performance can best do that by improving aerobic capacity and that is done by running lots of miles at the appropriate intensity year after year.

The more miles one runs and the longer they keep at it the greater their aerobic capacity will be within their own personal genetic limit. It probably would take about 10 years of constant high mileage running to approach that limit.

So you are telling me someone who runs 60 miles a week will run a quicker marathon than those that do 40 miles per week?

Someone who runs 40 miles a week would run a faster marathon if he ran 60 miles a week.

There are too many other variables involved to isolate one variable and compare 2 different people.

You have just contradicted yourself! way too many variables! Either way its poor advice to tell a newbie runner to up there milage to 60+ a week to improve times! what about intervals, what about tempo runs, you yourself have picked out one variable and said go and do that like its gospel!

The variables I am talking about are age, sex, genetics, and overall training history so I have not contradicted myself at all. In a distance of 26 miles where the average new runner is finishing in 4 hours or more, intervals and tempo runs are next to irrelevant. That person is running for so long that running anywhere close to LT is physically impossible. They would be much better served by increasing their aerobic capacity which will in turn allow them to run faster while consuming less glycogen and generating less lactate. This is done by running lots of miles for a long time (several years).

More importantly, this is not simply my opinion but the accumulated experience of such "Marathoning" experts as Lydiard, Phitzinger, Daniels, and others.

The mistake most people make is thinking they have to train fast in order to get faster. The result is that they run too fast all the time, and by extension too little, and never fully develop the aerobic capacity in the legs' slow twitch muscle fibers. All the tempo and interval training in the world isn't going to fix that.

Finally, when I said that people who run marathons should be aiming at 60 mi a week minimum that's exactly what I meant. If a new runner cannot do that then their focus should be on building a base to that level before worrying about "speed" training. If it takes several marathon training cycles to get there then when they do finally get to that point they will be much better prepared for the distance than if they sacrificed the volume for faster training runs.

The bottom line is that faster training runs are next to useless unless one has built their aerobic capacity high enough that they can sustain that faster pace for 26 miles and not simply run fast for 20 miles, hit the wall, and then walk the last 6 miles.

justrunjon

The single most important predictor of marathon performance is average weekly mileage. If you want to improve then run more.

In my opinion you should aim for averaging around 60 miles per week minimum for the 20 weeks leading up to the race for best results.

Also, most of the mileage, around 80%, should be run easy, around 75% max HR if you use a HRM. Trying to get faster by running faster all the time will not work. It will only make you really tired and eventually overwhelm your body's ability to adapt during high volume training.

Really?????????????????

Yes, really.

please please let me know how milage has anything to do with predicting performance?

Because about 99% of the energy used in a marathon is from aerobic pathways and the biggest predictor of aerobic fitness is average weekly mileage. Anyone looking to improve their marathon performance can best do that by improving aerobic capacity and that is done by running lots of miles at the appropriate intensity year after year.

The more miles one runs and the longer they keep at it the greater their aerobic capacity will be within their own personal genetic limit. It probably would take about 10 years of constant high mileage running to approach that limit.

So you are telling me someone who runs 60 miles a week will run a quicker marathon than those that do 40 miles per week?

Someone who runs 40 miles a week would run a faster marathon if he ran 60 miles a week.

There are too many other variables involved to isolate one variable and compare 2 different people.

You have just contradicted yourself! way too many variables! Either way its poor advice to tell a newbie runner to up there milage to 60+ a week to improve times! what about intervals, what about tempo runs, you yourself have picked out one variable and said go and do that like its gospel!

The variables I am talking about are age, sex, genetics, and overall training history so I have not contradicted myself at all. In a distance of 26 miles where the average new runner is finishing in 4 hours or more, intervals and tempo runs are next to irrelevant. That person is running for so long that running anywhere close to LT is physically impossible. They would be much better served by increasing their aerobic capacity which will in turn allow them to run faster while consuming less glycogen and generating less lactate. This is done by running lots of miles for a long time (several years).

More importantly, this is not simply my opinion but the accumulated experience of such "Marathoning" experts as Lydiard, Phitzinger, Daniels, and others.

The mistake most people make is thinking they have to train fast in order to get faster. The result is that they run too fast all the time, and by extension too little, and never fully develop the aerobic capacity in the legs' slow twitch muscle fibers. All the tempo and interval training in the world isn't going to fix that.

Finally, when I said that people who run marathons should be aiming at 60 mi a week minimum that's exactly what I meant. If a new runner cannot do that then their focus should be on building a base to that level before worrying about "speed" training. If it takes several marathon training cycles to get there then when they do finally get to that point they will be much better prepared for the distance than if they sacrificed the volume for faster training runs.

The bottom line is that faster training runs are next to useless unless one has built their aerobic capacity high enough that they can sustain that faster pace for 26 miles and not simply run fast for 20 miles, hit the wall, and then walk the last 6 miles.

Utter crap! if you cant learn to run fast you will never run faster end of!

scottb81

To the OP: Read this. It explains aerobic capacity and how to build it.

Athletic Training by Arthur Lydiard, available free at http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/pdfs/al_training_eng.pdf

justrunjon

@justrunjon thank you for your input. I have read all the posts. You haven't said what you would suggest would help improve marathon times. I had been doing tempo runs and intervals before. To be honest I didn't think that helped me much at mile 18 in the marathon but I'm not an expert, far from it.

I am a relative newbie runner. I have been running 3 years. I already run between 35 and 40 miles a week. By that I mean I run it EVERY week.

What I understand is being suggested is I up my mileage per week but also that more of the runs are done closer to marathon pace. Longer tempo runs. This makes sense to me. I have been running long enough to know I need to increase the mileage slowly.

I want to improve my times over years. I'm not expecting to run go from 4:30 to sub 4 this year. If you have other suggestions I'm geniunely intertested. Have you found intervals and tempos have a big effect?

Sorry to have hijacked the thread but being told to up your mileage by 50% is plain bad advice! for one you will put yourself at all sorts of risk of injury! any experienced runner knows this so why scottb81 has told you this is beyond me if he has experience!

Lydiard is just one coach, there are lots more who would have you TRAIN SMART and not plod out endless miles, base building is one aspect of a full and varied training program. It certainly isnt the be all and end all some would have you believe! long slow miles = a long slow miles runner!

pabscabs

@justrunjon no need to apologise. I won't be jumping to 60 miles next week this is going to take months if not years. I understand your concern taken out of context telling someone to up their mileage by 50% is bad advice. I don't believe in my context it's bad advice.

Scottb81 and Carsonruns have answered some of my other questions and understand my frustration with marathon training and in particular the marathon I ran in October. I was not prepared for the distance. They are also probably aware I do a 14 mile roundtrip to/from work at twice a week and have done for the last few years.

My problem with the training plans are I don't think they prepare you for the marathon. I'm starting my training now for a marathon in October. Every other sport I have been involved with you train harder than you hope to perform. For some reason in marathons, you train less than you hope to perform. I assume this is to prevent injury. If this is the case to goal has to be adjusted to a slower time.

I wouldn't train for a bout of 12 * 3 minute rounds by sparing 6 * 2 minute rounds it doesn't make sense.

This is what I'm going to do. I have started increasing my mileage already no more than 10% a week and I have a step down week every 3 weeks. I'm running my long runs at a pace of 9:28 but they are only around 11 miles at the moment. I will continue carefully adding miles until I can run 9:20 for at least 18 to 22 miles. I will run this years marathon. If I succeed running close to the 9:20 pace I will look at intervals and speedwork to improve my pace, tempo etc.

Thanks to everyone for your valued contributions.

Pabs

CarsonRuns

The single most important predictor of marathon performance is average weekly mileage. If you want to improve then run more.

In my opinion you should aim for averaging around 60 miles per week minimum for the 20 weeks leading up to the race for best results.

Also, most of the mileage, around 80%, should be run easy, around 75% max HR if you use a HRM. Trying to get faster by running faster all the time will not work. It will only make you really tired and eventually overwhelm your body's ability to adapt during high volume training.

Really?????????????????

Yes, really.

please please let me know how milage has anything to do with predicting performance?

Because about 99% of the energy used in a marathon is from aerobic pathways and the biggest predictor of aerobic fitness is average weekly mileage. Anyone looking to improve their marathon performance can best do that by improving aerobic capacity and that is done by running lots of miles at the appropriate intensity year after year.

The more miles one runs and the longer they keep at it the greater their aerobic capacity will be within their own personal genetic limit. It probably would take about 10 years of constant high mileage running to approach that limit.

So you are telling me someone who runs 60 miles a week will run a quicker marathon than those that do 40 miles per week?

Someone who runs 40 miles a week would run a faster marathon if he ran 60 miles a week.

There are too many other variables involved to isolate one variable and compare 2 different people.

You have just contradicted yourself! way too many variables! Either way its poor advice to tell a newbie runner to up there milage to 60+ a week to improve times! what about intervals, what about tempo runs, you yourself have picked out one variable and said go and do that like its gospel!

The variables I am talking about are age, sex, genetics, and overall training history so I have not contradicted myself at all. In a distance of 26 miles where the average new runner is finishing in 4 hours or more, intervals and tempo runs are next to irrelevant. That person is running for so long that running anywhere close to LT is physically impossible. They would be much better served by increasing their aerobic capacity which will in turn allow them to run faster while consuming less glycogen and generating less lactate. This is done by running lots of miles for a long time (several years).

More importantly, this is not simply my opinion but the accumulated experience of such "Marathoning" experts as Lydiard, Phitzinger, Daniels, and others.

The mistake most people make is thinking they have to train fast in order to get faster. The result is that they run too fast all the time, and by extension too little, and never fully develop the aerobic capacity in the legs' slow twitch muscle fibers. All the tempo and interval training in the world isn't going to fix that.

Finally, when I said that people who run marathons should be aiming at 60 mi a week minimum that's exactly what I meant. If a new runner cannot do that then their focus should be on building a base to that level before worrying about "speed" training. If it takes several marathon training cycles to get there then when they do finally get to that point they will be much better prepared for the distance than if they sacrificed the volume for faster training runs.

The bottom line is that faster training runs are next to useless unless one has built their aerobic capacity high enough that they can sustain that faster pace for 26 miles and not simply run fast for 20 miles, hit the wall, and then walk the last 6 miles.

Utter crap! if you cant learn to run fast you will never run faster end of!

My experience and the experience of many novice, intermediate and elite runners and the experience of coaches all over the world agrees with Scott. You're just wrong here. Do some research. You'll see.

CarsonRuns

long slow miles = a long slow miles runner!

This is just BS.

justrunjon

long slow miles = a long slow miles runner!

This is just BS.

oh should I up my miles to 60 a week and that will make me fast!? thats BS

scottb81

SInce my experience has been called into question here it is for the reader to judge.

Garmin Log: http://connect.garmin.com/profile/scottb81
Running Ahead Log for 2013: http://goo.gl/KaSVI

Started running consistently in 2011. I had run before, but had done nothing for the previous 4 years.

2011 Mileage: 1910
2011 Ave Weekly Mileage: 42 (includes only the weeks I ran)
2011 PRs
10K: 47:10
Mar: 3:50

2012 Mileage: 3552
2012 Ave Weekly Mileage: 68
2012 PRs
5K: 20:10
HMar: 1:35:25
Mar: 3:32:12

2013 Mileage to date: 226
2013 Ave Weekly Mileage: 72

My times are by no means great but they are well above average for a 52 year old male. My best races came after periods of LSD - *Long Steady Distance, not Slow DIstance. Once I started adding a lot of intervals and tempos in mid 2012 my performance plateaued, and perhaps declined slightly.

My two best races, the 2012 HMar and 5K came right after I drastically increased my average weekly mileage from 51 miles per week (10 wk average) to 73 miles per week, without doing any speedwork at all.

My experience is also that it is not all that difficult to add lots of mileage as long as the pace is easy. Adding mileage while doing speedwork is an invitation to injury. The most important thing is that if it starts to hurt then back off a little. If you get tired that is to be expected. If your legs become dead and training paces begin to decline at the same effort level then back off a little.

*Long Steady DIstance is run in the aerobic heart rate zone - around 70 to 80% max heartrate.

CarsonRuns

long slow miles = a long slow miles runner!

This is just BS.

oh should I up my miles to 60 a week and that will make me fast!? thats BS

Why don't you try it and see? Have you ever read anything about distance training?

My results echo those of Scott. My PR's are listed on my profile as well as a link to my training log. Have a look.

What kind of results have you seen and what type of training are you doing?

justrunjon

SInce my experience has been called into question here it is for the reader to judge.

Garmin Log: http://connect.garmin.com/profile/scottb81
Running Ahead Log for 2013: http://goo.gl/KaSVI

Started running consistently in 2011. I had run before, but had done nothing for the previous 4 years.

2011 Mileage: 1910
2011 Ave Weekly Mileage: 42 (includes only the weeks I ran)
2011 PRs
10K: 47:10
Mar: 3:50

2012 Mileage: 3552
2012 Ave Weekly Mileage: 68
2012 PRs
5K: 20:10
HMar: 1:35:25
Mar: 3:32:12

2013 Mileage to date: 226
2013 Ave Weekly Mileage: 72

My times are by no means great but they are well above average for a 52 year old male. My best races came after periods of LSD - *Long Steady Distance, not Slow DIstance. Once I started adding a lot of intervals and tempos in mid 2012 my performance plateaued, and perhaps declined slightly.

My two best races, the 2012 HMar and 5K came right after I drastically increased my average weekly mileage from 51 miles per week (10 wk average) to 73 miles per week, without doing any speedwork at all.

My experience is also that it is not all that difficult to add lots of mileage as long as the pace is easy. Adding mileage while doing speedwork is an invitation to injury. The most important thing is that if it starts to hurt then back off a little. If you get tired that is to be expected. If your legs become dead and training paces begin to decline at the same effort level then back off a little.

*Long Steady DIstance is run in the aerobic heart rate zone - around 70 to 80% max heartrate.

And your still +20 for a 5k? :-(

justrunjon

long slow miles = a long slow miles runner!

This is just BS.

oh should I up my miles to 60 a week and that will make me fast!? thats BS

Why don't you try it and see? Have you ever read anything about distance training?

My results echo those of Scott. My PR's are listed on my profile as well as a link to my training log. Have a look.

What kind of results have you seen and what type of training are you doing?

This is the thing, the pair of you refuse to believe there is another way to train! I never do more than 40/45m per week! the results I see above are just standard lowering of pb,s I would expect from any runner running 40+ miles a week for a few years! how do you both know any different if you havent tried another way to train? Why would you want to keep knocking out all them miles to be running a 20+ min 5k ( this isnt meant in a derogatory fashion) Why wouldnt you train smarter to lower them times? Is lydiard the only coaches philosophy you stand by? is it a case of what works for me must work for everyone so thats the advice thats given?? there are lots of proven plans to lower times why is this one the only one you support? why are even advanced marathon schedules maxing out at 55 miles per week?? There is more than one way! If you want to keep on with your dinosaur training ideology please do. Personally I train smart

scottb81

why are even advanced marathon schedules maxing out at 55 miles per week??

They aren't. Pfitzinger, Daniels, and The Hansons all go well beyond 55.