NOT WORKING!! Calories, science, and standard deviation
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Polly758
Posts: 623 Member
I see 2 kinds of people in this forum.
1: people that EM2WL works for. These people say “it works if you do it! Be patient!”
2: People who have done everything right, but have NOT have success on EM2WL. They are depressed and cranky and want to believe, but they are just gaining more and more weight as months go by.
I really feel bad for those second people. I can only imagine the anger and frustration you feel when this solution is just seeming to make it all worse.
It seems clear to me that “just doing the program” does not work for everyone. We can conclude, therefore, that either 1) the program is totally BS, or 2) there is something missing from the program.
We know the program is not BS because it works for many people. There must be something missing, and here’s what I propose:
If the program is not working for you, it’s because your calorie requirements are not average.
Remember what average means? Some people require more, some people require less. I like to call those people deviants. :laugh:
Now I am a librarian, and I do not have the math to calculate deviances. :blushing: Luckily, that’s what spreadsheets are for! This “calculating calories” spreadsheet (http://interzone.kicks-*kitten*.net/Calculating_calories.xls) tells me I have a small deviance week by week—it goes up and down a bit, but right now it’s at 1.2 percent. Nothing to speak of. I’m one of the lucky ones; I attribute it to the fact that I’ve never been on a VLCD.
Scooby has a calculator for calibration, but you have to download his spreadsheet, which I don’t think we need here since we all track our intake. Here’s the equation to find the number of calories to add/subtract from the standard.
((Actual Weight loss(lbs/mo) – Predicted Weight loss(lbs/mo)) x 3500 cals/lb ) / 30days/mo = Correction (cals/day)
Get your numbers for at least a month, use the equation, then put your correction number in the calculator he has here (http://scoobysworkshop.com/accurate-calorie-calculator/)
Alternatively, download the spreadsheet I mentioned, fill out everything for your starting weight, and fill out the weight evolution part with your past weekly weight. That will give you a percentage, but I’m not sure how to use that number to adjust calories… librarian…but I'm pretty sure you just turn the percentage into a decimal-- move the decimal 2 places to the left-- and multiply that by your original calorie intake, then take THAT number and subtract it from your original calorie intake for your NEW intake. (Whew! Message me and I can help. LOL)
For example, if a person was supposed to maintain weight on, say 2200 calories a day, but actually gained 5 pounds in one month, that’s a correction of 583 calories per day. That’s someone who will maintain at 1617 calories per day. So eating 2200 works out to a 26 percent bulk for that person—even lifting heavy, they’ll put on too much fat alongside the muscle.
I know 1617 calories seems low for the EM2WL approach. But that’s the math. EM2WL is based on science, it’s not a religion with magic numbers that work for everyone.
Do the reset, especially if you’ve been a dieter your whole life. It is very important and yes… you have to be patient. BUT THEN… calculate your deviance and adjust. Keep adjusting, month by month, until you see the results.
I'm rooting for all of you... I know you're working hard. Please don't give up yet. :flowerforyou:
[edited for clarification]
1: people that EM2WL works for. These people say “it works if you do it! Be patient!”
2: People who have done everything right, but have NOT have success on EM2WL. They are depressed and cranky and want to believe, but they are just gaining more and more weight as months go by.
I really feel bad for those second people. I can only imagine the anger and frustration you feel when this solution is just seeming to make it all worse.
It seems clear to me that “just doing the program” does not work for everyone. We can conclude, therefore, that either 1) the program is totally BS, or 2) there is something missing from the program.
We know the program is not BS because it works for many people. There must be something missing, and here’s what I propose:
If the program is not working for you, it’s because your calorie requirements are not average.
Remember what average means? Some people require more, some people require less. I like to call those people deviants. :laugh:
Now I am a librarian, and I do not have the math to calculate deviances. :blushing: Luckily, that’s what spreadsheets are for! This “calculating calories” spreadsheet (http://interzone.kicks-*kitten*.net/Calculating_calories.xls) tells me I have a small deviance week by week—it goes up and down a bit, but right now it’s at 1.2 percent. Nothing to speak of. I’m one of the lucky ones; I attribute it to the fact that I’ve never been on a VLCD.
Scooby has a calculator for calibration, but you have to download his spreadsheet, which I don’t think we need here since we all track our intake. Here’s the equation to find the number of calories to add/subtract from the standard.
((Actual Weight loss(lbs/mo) – Predicted Weight loss(lbs/mo)) x 3500 cals/lb ) / 30days/mo = Correction (cals/day)
Get your numbers for at least a month, use the equation, then put your correction number in the calculator he has here (http://scoobysworkshop.com/accurate-calorie-calculator/)
Alternatively, download the spreadsheet I mentioned, fill out everything for your starting weight, and fill out the weight evolution part with your past weekly weight. That will give you a percentage, but I’m not sure how to use that number to adjust calories… librarian…but I'm pretty sure you just turn the percentage into a decimal-- move the decimal 2 places to the left-- and multiply that by your original calorie intake, then take THAT number and subtract it from your original calorie intake for your NEW intake. (Whew! Message me and I can help. LOL)
For example, if a person was supposed to maintain weight on, say 2200 calories a day, but actually gained 5 pounds in one month, that’s a correction of 583 calories per day. That’s someone who will maintain at 1617 calories per day. So eating 2200 works out to a 26 percent bulk for that person—even lifting heavy, they’ll put on too much fat alongside the muscle.
I know 1617 calories seems low for the EM2WL approach. But that’s the math. EM2WL is based on science, it’s not a religion with magic numbers that work for everyone.
Do the reset, especially if you’ve been a dieter your whole life. It is very important and yes… you have to be patient. BUT THEN… calculate your deviance and adjust. Keep adjusting, month by month, until you see the results.
I'm rooting for all of you... I know you're working hard. Please don't give up yet. :flowerforyou:
[edited for clarification]
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Replies
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Thanks for this! The math certainly makes sense, and probably explains the troubles the people in the second category are having. If I turn out to be one of those people, I'll definitely run the formula and see what happens.0
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OK, so using my Reset numbers I GAINED 14 pounds in 6 weeks~ I entered this as -14(negative 14) right?
The number came out to be my BMR that Scooby gave me~ 1633
Can you re-check it?
Actual weight lost= 14 pounds GAINED/ 6 weeks
Predicted loss= 0 (reset)
Ate 2455 calories per day (TDEE) for 6 weeks or 45 days.
This is really interesting. I have proposed that there is "science on paper and science in real people"~ hmmm0 -
I agree that the math can totally be something to work with, but I would also like to propose that sometimes and for some people, it's NOT just about the numbers. It's about factoring in the damage we've done to our bodies through years of yo-yo dieting or vlcd's as well as other methods of measuring success.
Some of us are going to struggle for longer because our bodies need TIME. (I am in that category). After years of torturing my body with not enough food and too much exercise, an 8 week reset is just the START of the healing process. For many people it can take months until the metabolism is fully healed. (Kiki herself reset for many months...not just the 8 weeks). There is all kinds of tweaking that has to happen during this time if you go to cut at 8 weeks instead of resetting for several months, but the eventual goal is to get your body healthy and to the point where you are legitimately eating a 15% deficit of your tdee and seeing changes in your body.
Also, if I was to use the method of math mentioned I would miss the fact that this isn't just about the scale. I posted in another section that if I was to rely solely on scale and measurements I would have missed the fact that I've lost fat in my face, hands and shoulders. (places I NEVER measure but my family noticed). I would do myself a disservice by worrying about the scale weight and not taking ALL things into consideration.
The math is there to help, but there are so many other factors to consider, I hope we don't lose sight of those because of the scale.0 -
bump for future reference0
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Nicole~
What I'm also saying is that Lucia is RIGHT and that EM2WL is a Guideline and has to be tweaked to the individual~ this girl is saying it a bit differently but I think it's the same message.
I got something BEYOND MEASURE out of my Reset experience that has nothing to do with numbers: I believe I was able to conquer a 40 year habit/addiction of Compulsive Overeating. I know I've been a bit sidetracked on the boards lately but, believe me, I totally get the big picture.
I'm good with EM2WL.....just wanted to check this out......0 -
OK, so using my Reset numbers I GAINED 14 pounds in 6 weeks~ I entered this as -14(negative 14) right?
The number came out to be my BMR that Scooby gave me~ 1633
Can you re-check it?
Actual weight lost= 14 pounds GAINED/ 6 weeks
Predicted loss= 0 (reset)
Actually, I think gaining weight on the reset is normal and expected. It's AFTER the reset, when you drop your calories to a 15 percent cut-- if you've been doing that for a month and STILL have gains.
I'll update my OP to reflect this. [Sorry, can't edit ...?]
Meanwhile I will be happy run your numbers if you want to PM me your staring weight, height, ageThis is really interesting. I have proposed that there is "science on paper and science in real people"~ hmmm
It's those damn averages
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I agree that the math can totally be something to work with, but I would also like to propose that sometimes and for some people, it's NOT just about the numbers. It's about factoring in the damage we've done to our bodies through years of yo-yo dieting or vlcd's as well as other methods of measuring success.
Some of us are going to struggle for longer because our bodies need TIME. (I am in that category). After years of torturing my body with not enough food and too much exercise, an 8 week reset is just the START of the healing process. For many people it can take months until the metabolism is fully healed. (Kiki herself reset for many months...not just the 8 weeks). There is all kinds of tweaking that has to happen during this time if you go to cut at 8 weeks instead of resetting for several months, but the eventual goal is to get your body healthy and to the point where you are legitimately eating a 15% deficit of your tdee and seeing changes in your body.
Also, if I was to use the method of math mentioned I would miss the fact that this isn't just about the scale. I posted in another section that if I was to rely solely on scale and measurements I would have missed the fact that I've lost fat in my face, hands and shoulders. (places I NEVER measure but my family noticed). I would do myself a disservice by worrying about the scale weight and not taking ALL things into consideration.
The math is there to help, but there are so many other factors to consider, I hope we don't lose sight of those because of the scale.
Absolutely 100 percent agree. In my life, I have ranged 15 pounds being the SAME CLOTHES SIZE. Muscle.
When I say "gaining weight" I assume the person is also stretching out all their clothes.0 -
bump for future reading...!0
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I don't think I have a damaged-beyond-repair metabolism, as what is stated by needing a reset. However, I think my reset, and 12+ weeks of eating a surplus obviously showed that the TDEE Scooby says I should have wasn't right for me, since I'm 15-20lbs. heavier after doing it. Blech. I have not found my "sweet spot" yet, and maybe looking at this equation will give me something new to try. I applaude EM2WL for all the people it has helped, but had I known that following this philosophy would set me back a whole year of hard work, I wouldn't have gone this route. It will take me the same five months I spent gaining on this program, to get the darn weight off, then I have to start over with what I had to lose last spring.... which was only another 8-10 lbs.0
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I think this post is a great example of how to make the program YOURS, and shows how one would adopt the things that I stated here about not saying "it's not working."
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/729544-the-bad-and-the-ugly-side-of-the-journey
This is about finding what works for your lifestyle, and then living it. There really isn't a way to "quit" EM2WL, unless you never believed in fueling your body in the first place, and run to VLCD. If you are fueling your body properly *for you*, then you are still EM2WL (rather you want to "claim" it or not, lol)
Most people that think that it "didn't work" simply mean, they ate at scooby's # and didn't see results. Those numbers are just a jumping off point to help you to know what you *should* be eating. round about. They are not written in stone. It's a guesstimate at best. I personally found my own TDEE without using a calculator at all as stated here: http://eatmore2weighless.com/finding-tdee-without-using-a-calculator/
I say it all the time. EM2WL is YOUR program, it works if YOU work it. That means actually taking the time to learn more about your body. Yes, it's a pain sometimes when it's not "magical", but it's real. Following other methods will not lead to this same outcome, because you *still* won't know how to treat your body when/if you reach your goal. :ohwell:
THAT is what EM2WL is all about. The journey.
I think a lot of us are so focused on destination, that we will end up getting there and be forced to take a U-turn. :grumble:
Take the time to learn what works best for your body. It's *your* program, and *you* are the ONLY one that it will work FOR.
~Kiki0 -
need to read0
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It's funny that you've posted this now - I made a manual adjustment to my calories which was right around this mark. I need to drop some fat!
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I totally agree that this lifestyle will work for everyone but it does have to be geared to each individual specifically. For me, I had to bite the bullet and buy a BMF so I could know exactly what my TDEE was. As soon as I began wearing my BMF, it was evident that I still wasn't eating enough calories. Scooby and all the other sites had estimated my calories way under what I should've been eating, resulting in a constant pattern of gaining/losing the same 2 pounds. Once I tweaked it and played with my numbers, I began having success.
I have an MFP buddy on here who found that the lifestyle wasn't working well for her. She was stuck in a holding pattern, working out properly and fueling her body. She started zig-zagging her calories and now she's losing again and very happy with her results. She's not starving herself either, even on her low days.
I think, for those who feel it's not working, they really need to look at their specific numbers and just play around with it a little bit until they find what does work for them.0 -
As soon as I began wearing my BMF, it was evident that I still wasn't eating enough calories. Scooby and all the other sites had estimated my calories way under what I should've been eating, resulting in a constant pattern of gaining/losing the same 2 pounds. Once I tweaked it and played with my numbers, I began having success.
Yeah... I think a BMF is the only way to know for sure what your TDEE is (I mean without taking months to readjust and observe the results) (nothing wrong with that unless you are already freaking out about how much time you're investing). Otherwise, I think plenty of people assume that if they are gaining weight, they must be eating too much-- when in fact it might be that they are eating too little.0 -
I did the scooby adjustment early in my MFP days... it gave me a correction of plus 373 i.e. I was supposed to lose 2 lbs doing what I was doing and I lost 8.5 lbs instead. So it said my BMR was actually 1800-something instead of 1500-something. I'm not sure that's totally accurate either.
I would propose, if you're going to use the calculators, that you don't use the first week after any shift in caloric intake - neither up nor down. So if you just started a reset at est. TDEE, wait until week 2 to start your 30 day tracking. If you've just gone to a cut, wait for week 2 to start your 30 day tracking etc. Doing so will ensure you are not accounting for water weight/glycogen storage and loss, which will always take place when you change things up. When you start a cut, your body will drop extra pounds of glycogen/water in the first week; when you up your calories to near TDEE, your body will begin storing extra glycogen/water to the tune of about 3-5 lbs.
But yeah, I highly recommend tracking with the diligence required to run these calculations. It's fascinating to see how our bodies respond.0 -
Not necessarily. I had a BMF that I wore religiously and I think it ran high. I gained and gained on it...even at a deficit...As soon as I began wearing my BMF, it was evident that I still wasn't eating enough calories. Scooby and all the other sites had estimated my calories way under what I should've been eating, resulting in a constant pattern of gaining/losing the same 2 pounds. Once I tweaked it and played with my numbers, I began having success.
Yeah... I think a BMF is the only way to know for sure what your TDEE is (I mean without taking months to readjust and observe the results) (nothing wrong with that unless you are already freaking out about how much time you're investing). Otherwise, I think plenty of people assume that if they are gaining weight, they must be eating too much-- when in fact it might be that they are eating too little.
That being said...I was a theater major...not a math major! I don't understand the equation, but want to put my numbers in. I need help!0 -
I had to get a BMF as well. It is one of the best purchases I have ever made. 35 years of not knowing how much I burn and now I finally have the answer (+/- 10% of course). I am now eating 2300 calories a day and losing. I can't believe I ate 1200 for so long! I am so thankful I found the EMTWL group!0
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I had to get a BMF as well. It is one of the best purchases I have ever made. 35 years of not knowing how much I burn and now I finally have the answer (+/- 10% of course). I am now eating 2300 calories a day and losing. I can't believe I ate 1200 for so long! I am so thankful I found the EMTWL group!
I am curious.. do you use Polar HRM to measure burn and add to BMF? Because I know calories on BMF is usually low than HRM.0 -
Not necessarily. I had a BMF that I wore religiously and I think it ran high. I gained and gained on it...even at a deficit...As soon as I began wearing my BMF, it was evident that I still wasn't eating enough calories. Scooby and all the other sites had estimated my calories way under what I should've been eating, resulting in a constant pattern of gaining/losing the same 2 pounds. Once I tweaked it and played with my numbers, I began having success.
Yeah... I think a BMF is the only way to know for sure what your TDEE is (I mean without taking months to readjust and observe the results) (nothing wrong with that unless you are already freaking out about how much time you're investing). Otherwise, I think plenty of people assume that if they are gaining weight, they must be eating too much-- when in fact it might be that they are eating too little.
That being said...I was a theater major...not a math major! I don't understand the equation, but want to put my numbers in. I need help!
TOTALLY gained with my ex-BMF!! sold it!0 -
Hi! The BMF takes into account all your activity throughout the day including workouts. There is no HRM in the device because many other factors are taken into consideration that are unrelated to heart rate but give you an accurate burn reading. I have worn a HRM alone and my burn for most aerobic activities are pretty close to the BMF. During spinning and elliptical, I wear it on my leg as opposed to the suggested tricep. During Strength training, it will still show an increased calorie burn but much lower than an aerobic cardio session. This is because, even though your heart rate might be high during strength, it is an anerobic activity and does not burn as many calories during the session. One of the many benefits of strength training however, is the additional calorie burn you will experience during the day after the session. Traditional cardio will for the most part, give you a burn during the session only. I should also mention that when using my BMF, I erred on the side of caution and considered my maintenance to be 200 calories less than the device said (BMF gave me a TDEE of 2750 and I chose to use 2550 as my TDEE). I wore the device for 3 straight months to get me a good average. I did an 8 week reset at 2550 and now eat 10% less than that to lose.0
