New to group, lets talk carbs
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Taem2
Posts: 47 Member
Hello,
I was a type 2 diabetic with high blood pressure. I decided to join the group, not to cause trouble, but I wanted to support others, find support for myself, and to also clarify a few things.
This is purely my opinion.
When you start talking about low carbs or carb watching, I assume you are talking about processed and refined foods. Natural foods like white potatoes are high in carbs, but they are not the devil or a food to avoid, unless you are following a ketogenic diet. When I talk about carbs, I am talking about whole foods found in nature. I also include rice and pasta (not al dente).
For diabetics, losing the weight is the priority. So that means, when NOT on a ketogenic diet (low carb diets such as Atkin's), fat becomes your enemy because it's 9 calories a gram vs. carb which is 4 calories a gram.
So why does a person like me promote starchy foods like rice and potatoes, and say he is a t2 diabetic? Isn't that heresy? Won't I die due to diabetic complications, example some type of blood sugar damage? Doesn't rice and potatoes turn to sugar raising whatever in your blood stream and get you in trouble?
Rice and potatoes does raise your insulin, yes, it does. Okay, we are not dead. That means, as Dr. McDougall points out, that we are receiving energy/calories. That's not a bad thing, especially if you go for a 30 minute brisk walk at least every other day and avoid meats/diary/seafood (follow a low-fat diet).
When I went to diabetic classes, I was told to avoid the starchy foods, because they make you gain weight. Then, the doctors gave me medicine, that, made me gain weight. Then the doctor scolded me and upped my dosage and then I gained more weight. Why? was it the starchy foods? No, it was a combination of me eating poorly (fast food and refined and processed foods) and a lack of exercise (failing to lose weight).
The reason I advocate for starchy foods. Potatoes and rice, well they are not calorie bombs compared to eating meats and oils. Another benefit is that potatoes and rice are not high fat foods (remember 9 calories a gram) and eating starchy foods along with salads (and not just iceburg lettuce (and no oil/dressing in your salads)) will fill up your stomach, give you the nutrition and energy to go about your day (and don't forget the exercise).
As you consume low-fat foods and exercise, you will lose fat, you will lose weight. I promise you this. I can promise you this because I did it. I am still doing it. I will always do it. At the highest weight of 230 lbs, I was a waist size 43ish, now I am a size 32.
For type 2 diabetics, fat is our enemy. It will always be our enemy. Have you ever seen a person with a diabetic "bump"? It is a carbuncle at the back of your neck and it looks really bad, as well, it causes fatigue and fevers. I believe that this occurs because diabetics are prone to skin disease and most diabetics have plenty of adipose fat. Again, fat is our enemy. When that carbuncle has fat as its home, it doesn't want to let go. Youtube has examples of diabetic carbuncles, it is graphic so be warned.
I gave up eating meats/dairy/seafood (and foots high in fat), and I feel better and coupled with exercise I feel great. My food diary is open to the public, I try to live up to the message I wrote above and feels I should be held accountable. I have to, I lost my health insurance, I have no drug to keep me "healthy." Food and exercise and rest is my drug now.
For some who follow a ketogenic/low carb diet. I don't hate. It's what you do. But I want people to know that you can eat a starchy diet with veggies and exercise and rest and get off the medications. This also presupposes that your organs also work (liver, pancreas, kidneys).
Thanks.
Ted
I was a type 2 diabetic with high blood pressure. I decided to join the group, not to cause trouble, but I wanted to support others, find support for myself, and to also clarify a few things.
This is purely my opinion.
When you start talking about low carbs or carb watching, I assume you are talking about processed and refined foods. Natural foods like white potatoes are high in carbs, but they are not the devil or a food to avoid, unless you are following a ketogenic diet. When I talk about carbs, I am talking about whole foods found in nature. I also include rice and pasta (not al dente).
For diabetics, losing the weight is the priority. So that means, when NOT on a ketogenic diet (low carb diets such as Atkin's), fat becomes your enemy because it's 9 calories a gram vs. carb which is 4 calories a gram.
So why does a person like me promote starchy foods like rice and potatoes, and say he is a t2 diabetic? Isn't that heresy? Won't I die due to diabetic complications, example some type of blood sugar damage? Doesn't rice and potatoes turn to sugar raising whatever in your blood stream and get you in trouble?
Rice and potatoes does raise your insulin, yes, it does. Okay, we are not dead. That means, as Dr. McDougall points out, that we are receiving energy/calories. That's not a bad thing, especially if you go for a 30 minute brisk walk at least every other day and avoid meats/diary/seafood (follow a low-fat diet).
When I went to diabetic classes, I was told to avoid the starchy foods, because they make you gain weight. Then, the doctors gave me medicine, that, made me gain weight. Then the doctor scolded me and upped my dosage and then I gained more weight. Why? was it the starchy foods? No, it was a combination of me eating poorly (fast food and refined and processed foods) and a lack of exercise (failing to lose weight).
The reason I advocate for starchy foods. Potatoes and rice, well they are not calorie bombs compared to eating meats and oils. Another benefit is that potatoes and rice are not high fat foods (remember 9 calories a gram) and eating starchy foods along with salads (and not just iceburg lettuce (and no oil/dressing in your salads)) will fill up your stomach, give you the nutrition and energy to go about your day (and don't forget the exercise).
As you consume low-fat foods and exercise, you will lose fat, you will lose weight. I promise you this. I can promise you this because I did it. I am still doing it. I will always do it. At the highest weight of 230 lbs, I was a waist size 43ish, now I am a size 32.
For type 2 diabetics, fat is our enemy. It will always be our enemy. Have you ever seen a person with a diabetic "bump"? It is a carbuncle at the back of your neck and it looks really bad, as well, it causes fatigue and fevers. I believe that this occurs because diabetics are prone to skin disease and most diabetics have plenty of adipose fat. Again, fat is our enemy. When that carbuncle has fat as its home, it doesn't want to let go. Youtube has examples of diabetic carbuncles, it is graphic so be warned.
I gave up eating meats/dairy/seafood (and foots high in fat), and I feel better and coupled with exercise I feel great. My food diary is open to the public, I try to live up to the message I wrote above and feels I should be held accountable. I have to, I lost my health insurance, I have no drug to keep me "healthy." Food and exercise and rest is my drug now.
For some who follow a ketogenic/low carb diet. I don't hate. It's what you do. But I want people to know that you can eat a starchy diet with veggies and exercise and rest and get off the medications. This also presupposes that your organs also work (liver, pancreas, kidneys).
Thanks.
Ted
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Replies
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Your experience is proof that diabetes is a very individual disease. My experience is the polar opposite of yours. By restricting carbs while increasing protein and fats, adding exercise and following the advice of my blood glucose meter (http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/2006/10/test-review-adjust.html) my blood glucose levels dropped into the normal range consistently
A1c 5.5
FBG < 100
peak BG < 120
post-prandial BG < 100-110
In addition, my latest lipid also within "normal" parameters, even with a marked increase in dietary fat. And I've lost weight - a lot of weight, which mirrors the experiences of many other T2's who participate in these forums. For me, a calorie deficit was a natural extension of carb restriction.
It's also interesting that you warn against pasta cooked al dente when from testing, I discovered that al dente pasta resulted in a much lower peak than pasta cooked until soft. In fact, Dreamfields pasta (which I also avoid as I found it only delays a spike, peaking to an unacceptable level 11/2 hours after i expected it to) specifically warns about overcooking their pasta. Unfortunately, that peak was still quite a bit above a level determined to cause those diabetic complications you seem to discount.
I do not follow a ketogenic diet because I found it to be too restrictive and in the end, for me, unnecessary to gain tight control. However, potatoes, rice, oatmeal, corn and wheat are now gone from my diet. I stick to low-sugar, high-fiber fruits and legumes in 1/2 servings.
I urge any fellow diabetics to use the most important tool in their arsenal - the blood glucose meter - and to strive for tight control with "normal" readings0 -
@kidipazz I whole-heartedly agree with you - use your meter; we are all very different individuals and although Tim has had good success with his diet it may not work for others.
@Tim, I think it is awesome that you have been able to enjoy the starchy foods as they are staples in many of our diets. I enjoy potatoes, rice, pasta to some degree myself.0 -
To be true to my word, here is my running history.
http://nikeplus.nike.com/plus/activity/running/tropevp/lifetime?external_share_id=f71509f7-a94a-400f-b7cf-f1a355568b9a#graph0 -
Your experience is proof that diabetes is a very individual disease. My experience is the polar opposite of yours. By restricting carbs while increasing protein and fats, adding exercise and following the advice of my blood glucose meter (http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/2006/10/test-review-adjust.html) my blood glucose levels dropped into the normal range consistently
A1c 5.5
FBG < 100
peak BG < 120
post-prandial BG < 100-110
In addition, my latest lipid also within "normal" parameters, even with a marked increase in dietary fat. And I've lost weight - a lot of weight, which mirrors the experiences of many other T2's who participate in these forums. For me, a calorie deficit was a natural extension of carb restriction.
It's also interesting that you warn against pasta cooked al dente when from testing, I discovered that al dente pasta resulted in a much lower peak than pasta cooked until soft. In fact, Dreamfields pasta (which I also avoid as I found it only delays a spike, peaking to an unacceptable level 11/2 hours after i expected it to) specifically warns about overcooking their pasta. Unfortunately, that peak was still quite a bit above a level determined to cause those diabetic complications you seem to discount.
I do not follow a ketogenic diet because I found it to be too restrictive and in the end, for me, unnecessary to gain tight control. However, potatoes, rice, oatmeal, corn and wheat are now gone from my diet. I stick to low-sugar, high-fiber fruits and legumes in 1/2 servings.
I urge any fellow diabetics to use the most important tool in their arsenal - the blood glucose meter - and to strive for tight control with "normal" readings
This is almost exactly what I have experienced and the approach I have taken to control my numbers.0 -
This has been my experience. A low carb, moderate protein, high fat diet brought my BG readings under 100 and the weight is falling off of me. That is without any diabetes medication.Your experience is proof that diabetes is a very individual disease. My experience is the polar opposite of yours. By restricting carbs while increasing protein and fats, adding exercise and following the advice of my blood glucose meter (http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/2006/10/test-review-adjust.html) my blood glucose levels dropped into the normal range consistently
A1c 5.5
FBG < 100
peak BG < 120
post-prandial BG < 100-110
In addition, my latest lipid also within "normal" parameters, even with a marked increase in dietary fat. And I've lost weight - a lot of weight, which mirrors the experiences of many other T2's who participate in these forums. For me, a calorie deficit was a natural extension of carb restriction.
It's also interesting that you warn against pasta cooked al dente when from testing, I discovered that al dente pasta resulted in a much lower peak than pasta cooked until soft. In fact, Dreamfields pasta (which I also avoid as I found it only delays a spike, peaking to an unacceptable level 11/2 hours after i expected it to) specifically warns about overcooking their pasta. Unfortunately, that peak was still quite a bit above a level determined to cause those diabetic complications you seem to discount.
I do not follow a ketogenic diet because I found it to be too restrictive and in the end, for me, unnecessary to gain tight control. However, potatoes, rice, oatmeal, corn and wheat are now gone from my diet. I stick to low-sugar, high-fiber fruits and legumes in 1/2 servings.
I urge any fellow diabetics to use the most important tool in their arsenal - the blood glucose meter - and to strive for tight control with "normal" readings0 -
I also agree that diabetes is an individual thing. When I eat all low carb and don't worry about fats, my bs is always under control. That's why we have to use our meters to see what foods have the greatest affect on our bs levels. Glad you have found whaf works for you!
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When I went to diabetic classes, I was told to avoid the starchy foods, because they make you gain weight. Then, the doctors gave me medicine, that, made me gain weight. Then the doctor scolded me and upped my dosage and then I gained more weight. Why? was it the starchy foods? No, it was a combination of me eating poorly (fast food and refined and processed foods) and a lack of exercise (failing to lose weight).
For type 2 diabetics, fat is our enemy. It will always be our enemy. Have you ever seen a person with a diabetic "bump"? It is a carbuncle at the back of your neck and it looks really bad, as well, it causes fatigue and fevers. I believe that this occurs because diabetics are prone to skin disease and most diabetics have plenty of adipose fat. Again, fat is our enemy. When that carbuncle has fat as its home, it doesn't want to let go. Youtube has examples of diabetic carbuncles, it is graphic so be warned.
Ted
The focus in your diabetic class should have been to limit/avoid starchy foods because starchy and/or sugary foods raise blood sugar. Food, in general, does not cause weight gain. Too much food causes weight gain. Too many carbs raise blood sugar.
And carbuncles are caused by a staph infection. It is quite possible to be a diabetic at a normal body weight and still have out of control blood sugar. Again, correlation does not imply causation. Fat diabetics are more prone to skin infections as a result of out of control blood sugars, not as a result of being fat.
Body fat, not dietary fat, is the enemy of a diabetic as excess fat increases insulin resistance. Insulin resistance means that the pancreas has to work harder and harder to produce more and more insulin to bring down blood sugar, leading to the eventual destruction of the beta cells.
You don't mention what your blood glucose readings are. In another post, you state that a fasting reading of 150 isn't bad. My endo would beg to differ!
And in yet another post, you state that you were able to bring your reading down to the high 70's after 3 days of fasting meaning "my body adapted to a lack of glucose" and that you "don't consider myself a diabetic because I eat right (starch-based with plenty of veggies and fruits), exercise and my blood work and tests came back normal"
This confuses me terribly! I do realize that some diabetics may actually have higher blood glucose after fasting, however, I expect my blood sugars to be low after fasting since I don't have issues with liver dumps. I certainly don't think that my diabetes has vanished however. I'd be more curious to see how your body responds ingesting 200 grams of carbs. I'll wager that a glucose tolerance test would show that you are, indeed, still diabetic.
And congratulations on the exercise. Exercise is an important tool in controlling blood sugar and it may be that YOUR level is enough to control YOUR diabetes, despite the high carb diet you espouse.0 -
A low fat diet isn't a panacea for weight loss. For many, a low carb diet helps with losing weight and controlingl blood glucose levels. As others have said, the correct path for losing weight and controlling diabetes is specific to the individual.As you consume low-fat foods and exercise, you will lose fat, you will lose weight.
Aside from any particular dietary plan (low carb, low fat, etc.) the most important factor in weight loss is maintaining a caloric deficit along with regular exercise.0 -
I tried low fat diets (actually low fat, low calorie, low protein and high carb) for years and did lose weight but still had high blood glucose readings and high blood pressure. It wasn’t until I started “eating to my meter” and lowering my carbohydrates by not eating carbs that spiked my BG, that I started getting healthy. Now, trying to keep less than 40 grams of carbs per day (8%, 57% fat and 35% protein), none of which are processed sugars, grains or potatoes, I am off all diabetes meds and trying to control it through diet. As an added benefit, my blood pressure yesterday was 100/60.
This works for me.0 -
Personally I am not on meds and control my blood sugar with diet. A potato with no meds to balance out my glucose spikes my blood sugar up and I physically feel ill. I am not on high fat but not on low fat. I try to eat as many low fat things as possible while keeping my carbs down. I don't typically have an issue with keeping to my calorie goal and I feel full when I eat.
I am keeping to a 15% carb diet which allows me some room for different carb options, but i tend to keep my fiber to about 50% of my total carb intake. Eh we are all different. Using my meter was key in keeping blood sugars low enough to stay off the diabetic meds. I am losing inches and I assume weight (have not been on the scale for awhile). The most important thing is I am keeping my blood sugar in check.0 -
I am very new to the idea of low carb/high fat or other types of diets. I have only been diagnosed for 5 months, so please forgive my ignorance when I ask....
*When you say you eat a low carb / high fat diet, can you be more specific about actual percentages or grams?* [EDIT: I seem some of you have put percentages and grams, thank you. Very helpful! ]
I'm not exactly sure that "low carb / high fat" means. For example, I eat about 40-50% carbs, and 25-30% each protein/fats. I stay below 50 grams of fat total. I stay above 130 grams of (net) carbs. Which means I eat on average about 1,300 calories per day.
Do you have percentages or grams that you aim for?0 -
I try to keep my carb grams below 100... the lower, the better but not TOO low. As for fats, I don't go out of my way to eat fats but I also don't really worry about keeping track of them either. I also try hard to keep my sugar intake under 25g a day.0
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I have many clients who are diabetics and are polar opposites as well. By consuming a low carb (under 100 grams a day, which still puts you in a mild state of ketosis) and consuming high protein ---very lean protein that is----and keeping fats under 30 grams a day, they see dramatic improvements in blood sugars within one week.0
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I use to keep my carbs under 100 (that was the only way I was able to lose weight (I thought). Sure the weight was coming off, but I noticed my FBS was all over the place from normal to high to middle... When I was first diagnosed with type2, a dietician said to eat 45 carbs for breakfast, lunch and dinner (she saw my food journal and said I was doing good other than the carbs per meal. (I usually ate 80 carbs a day. Well after a year of struggling to get my diabeties under controll. I threw my hands up at my Dr's office and said, I am at a loss. I thought I was doing everything right.
When I got home, I decided to try the 45 carbs a meal (main meals) and my gosh it worked for me. The way came off more easily. I felt fuller and my FBS was right on track where it should be (around 70 to 90).
Then I fell a stray and now I am back to eating healthy to get my BS back down and to lose more weight.
Like others have said. everyone's body is different.0 -
The OPs experience has been similar to mine, but I am aware a lot of T2s also reduce their carbs.
Use what works for you.
As is says in my "go to" book on Diabetes - YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary, in other words people react differently to the disease.0 -
Sorry to hijack this thread, as newly diagnosed i am wondering when you are giving the amount of carbs you stick to is this net carbs (total carbs-fibre) or total carbs?
I'm a bit confused by this low carb lark, and really want to get my head round it?
thanks0 -
Ref questions raised by Cherylclark and Bettyeditor, there are a number of different viewpoints, both of which have their merits. There is a plethora of books etc all offering a different viewpoints. This can lead to lots of frustration and confusion. Some people have significant success with a low carb diet ie under 100 while others find this unsuitable to their needs. This simply underlines the point made several times before, but worth repeating, that there is no one size fits all. Diabetes is a very individual condition and each person has to work out what suits them. There are a number of principles which do apply. A consensus view which many have found helpful is to try for a target of arounf 45 net carbs per meal with approx 20 left for snacks if required. Ref Cheryl's question, carb targets are net carbs which are total carbs less grams of fibre eg 35 grams total carbs with 5 grms fibre would give net carbs of 30. One of the best pieces of advice I was given was to pre-plan meals to ensure that consumption was within targets. Take time to read over the various boards in this group and get a feel for the site. When you're ready to ask questions, you will both find lots of help and encouragement in this group. I wish yiou both every success in your journey to an active and healthy lifestyle.0
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Again, I repeat that when you eat unprocessed, foods from nature, you don't worry about insulin spikes. Sure, eating potatoes will raise your blood sugar, but that just means you are getting your calories/energy.
Lets look at the white potato: GI: 69
http://www.glycemicindex.com/foodSearch.php?num=224&ak=detail
Lets look at a Mars Snickers Bar: GI: 43
http://www.glycemicindex.com/foodSearch.php?num=1774&ak=detail
So go eat your Snickers bar, right?
When you search for the GI for fat, you notice that is low in GI. But lets not forget, fat is 9 calories a gram. So, fat gives you less blood sugar "spikes" but it gives you more calories in return.
This is why I recommend, exercise along with starches and veggies and rest.
Yes, you can eat enough fat from calories and justify it that way. Calorie density suggests that you will eventually be hungry because your satiety will not be satisfied.
Chris Voigt, a man who ate nothing but potatoes beg to differ with most of the messages here. He ate nothing but potatoes and lost weight, check out his stats and watch his video story here:
http://20potatoesaday.com/
As for the person who said that my advice about a blood sugar of 150 was wrong, 150 is not great, I agree. However, it is not dangerous, it is a warning. My advice went against those who suggested eating something before bed was something you didn't take into account when you mention this in this thread, that is, stop eating and take a short, brisk walk at 7 pm. That advice was part one, you need to let your body process the excess glucose. The second part, I didn't mention was that spikes happen also when a person is stressed, so 150 is low enough to say it could be stress related. Eating something before bed, is just bad advice because you don't want food sitting in your stomach while you are sleeping.0 -
If you look at my food diary, you will realize most of my foods are from carbs, starches and fruits and vegetables (veggies have very low carbs).
So a low fat to me is under 10%-15% of fat from calories. I am not a body builder so around 15% from protein is more than adequate. Everything else comes from carbs: starches, fruits and veggies. Not, processed and refined carbs.
My story isn't unique. You can go to Dr. John McDougall's web site and watch the videos of other people who lost weight, reversed diabetes, and other chronic diseases by eating starchy foods and veggies and getting exercise and rest, cutting out processed foods and holding value in their health (making decisions that altered their behavior).0 -
Ok OP. I don’t think high carb, low fat is good if you have diabetes. There is lots of evidence against this, and just citing a website is not convincing me. Any idiot can start a website and post whatever he makes up. Realize, that that's how those idiots make money of you.
Reading your posts, you don’t seem to be worried about high glucose. Are your measuring glucose?
If you are, how high do you spike after meals? If they are low enough, great it works for you. If they get high, and you don’t think that is a problem. Fine your choice, but stop promoting this to others. If you are not measuring glucose, get a meter and start measuring. Read up on the long term consequences of high glucose, none of them are pretty.0
