Repost? Why women shouldn't do alot of cardio
JeffseekingV
Posts: 3,165 Member
http://athlete.io/5343/why-women-should-not-run/
Science Wants You to Stop Running
Trashing steady-state cardio isn’t exactly a novel idea, and the better physique gurus figured at least a portion of this out years ago, when they started applying the no-steady-state-cardio rule to contest preparation. They failed, however, to point out the most detrimental effect of this type of training—one that applies specifically to women:
Studies—both clinical and observational—make a compelling case that too much cardio can impair the production of the thyroid hormone T3, its effectiveness and metabolism[1-11], particularly when accompanied by caloric restriction, an all too common practice. This is why many first or second-time figure and bikini competitors explode in weight when they return to their normal diets, and it’s why the Jessicas of the world can run for hours every week with negative results.
T3 is the body’s preeminent regulator of metabolism, by the way it throttles the efficiency of cells[12-19]. It also acts in various ways to increase heat production[20-21]. As I pointed out in previous articles, this is one reason why using static equations to perform calories-in, calories-out weight loss calculations doesn’t work.
When T3 levels are normal, the body burns enough energy to stay warm, and muscles function at moderate efficiency. When there’s too much thyroid hormone (hyperthyroidism), the body goes into a state where weight gain is almost impossible. Too little T3 (hypothyroidism), and the body accumulates body fat with ease, almost regardless of physical activity level. Women inadvertently put themselves into a hypothyroid condition when they perform so much steady-state cardio.
In the quest to lose body fat, T3 levels can offer both success and miserable failure because of the way it influences other fat-regulating hormones[22-31]. Women additionally get all the other negative effects of this, which I’ll cover below. Don’t be surprised here. This is a simple, sensible adaptation of a body that’s equipped to bear the full brunt of reproduction.
Science Wants You to Stop Running
Trashing steady-state cardio isn’t exactly a novel idea, and the better physique gurus figured at least a portion of this out years ago, when they started applying the no-steady-state-cardio rule to contest preparation. They failed, however, to point out the most detrimental effect of this type of training—one that applies specifically to women:
Studies—both clinical and observational—make a compelling case that too much cardio can impair the production of the thyroid hormone T3, its effectiveness and metabolism[1-11], particularly when accompanied by caloric restriction, an all too common practice. This is why many first or second-time figure and bikini competitors explode in weight when they return to their normal diets, and it’s why the Jessicas of the world can run for hours every week with negative results.
T3 is the body’s preeminent regulator of metabolism, by the way it throttles the efficiency of cells[12-19]. It also acts in various ways to increase heat production[20-21]. As I pointed out in previous articles, this is one reason why using static equations to perform calories-in, calories-out weight loss calculations doesn’t work.
When T3 levels are normal, the body burns enough energy to stay warm, and muscles function at moderate efficiency. When there’s too much thyroid hormone (hyperthyroidism), the body goes into a state where weight gain is almost impossible. Too little T3 (hypothyroidism), and the body accumulates body fat with ease, almost regardless of physical activity level. Women inadvertently put themselves into a hypothyroid condition when they perform so much steady-state cardio.
In the quest to lose body fat, T3 levels can offer both success and miserable failure because of the way it influences other fat-regulating hormones[22-31]. Women additionally get all the other negative effects of this, which I’ll cover below. Don’t be surprised here. This is a simple, sensible adaptation of a body that’s equipped to bear the full brunt of reproduction.
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I liked this article but I wish the author didn't just rant about cardio and gave some alternatives.0
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I mean, really?0
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You say running is bad, but it sounds like you are talking about running on a treadmill (or other flat surface) at a steady pace. A lot of runners don't maintain a steady pace/heart rate as they run outdoors and are going up and down hills, over uneven terrain (grass, dirt, broken pavement, curbs), and they vary their runs with intervals and sprints. I purposefully run in a very hilly area and my heart rate is constantly going up and down and I am engaging different muscles. Also, I love it. It's really fun. Happiness is the number one reason for running anyway
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I love to run as well, the high I get after a stressful day cannot be compared to anything else I do for relaxation. As the previous poster wrote I too run on trails and my heart rate goes form 85%+ max to 45%-60% of MHR. Even when I run on treadmill I never run at steady state as it gets so mindlessly boring.0
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"Why Women Who Are Not Already Endurance Athletes Whose Primary Goal Is To Lower Body Fat For Health Reasons Should Not Run Excessively According To Some Limited Recent Evidence That Will Have To Be Confirmed As Would Any Scientific Finding" isn't quite as catchy.0
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Not advice. Just posting something up for those that are doing tons of cardio and not happy with their results.0
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Not advice. Just posting something up for those that are doing tons of cardio and not happy with their results.
Though I love to run...changes only happened when I cut down on 7 days of running to 4 days cardio+3 days of heavy lift. So agree that all the insane amt of cardio was not helping at all. Maybe it was my diet who know......maybe it was serious resistance training.0 -
"Why Women Who Are Not Already Endurance Athletes Whose Primary Goal Is To Lower Body Fat For Health Reasons Should Not Run Excessively According To Some Limited Recent Evidence That Will Have To Be Confirmed As Would Any Scientific Finding" isn't quite as catchy.
Honestly, I'd prefer a title like that.0 -
Bump to show up in my feed.0
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I don't have time to go into why runners stay out of the "black hole" and why we do intervals and why we cross train with weights. Let me just focus in on this sentence: "This is a simple, sensible adaptation of a body that’s equipped to bear the full brunt of reproduction."
If this were true, if it were true that hypothyroidism is an evolutionary artifact, it would be as common as knee injuries and concussions for football players in female runners. It's not.
Contrary to what we were told in the '50s, our uteruses won't get damaged by running fast either.0 -
I think the point that gets missed, because of the trendy "lift all the weights" stuff, is that it completely and totally depends on your goals. I may not get it at all, but there are some women who do not want to be strong (seriously, I have had women tell me this) and don't care at all about body fat percentages. They just want to be good runners. And even though I don't understand it, I can respect it. They have different goals than I do, and that's fine.
But there are women (a lot of them) who are running because they think running, in and of itself, burns fat. And the second you try to tell them that they could burn fat a lot more efficiently by eating at a deficit and getting really strong by lifting heavy weights, they get defensive, and they don't want to hear it. I used to be the same way. I had to learn through experience, so I have stopped trying to convince anyone of something they don't want to believe. I have a friend who runs marathons even though she admittedly hates running and says she only does it for exercise. She is nearly 30% body fat and is struggling to lose weight. But she doesn't believe her endless running and complete lack of resistance training have anything to do with it. And the crazy part is she has a PhD and works in higher education, and she still won't even read peer-reviewed studies about the advantages of strength training for people trying to lose body fat. So I'm pretty sure there's nothing I can say that will change her mind.0 -
I think the point that gets missed, because of the trendy "lift all the weights" stuff, is that it completely and totally depends on your goals. I may not get it at all, but there are some women who do not want to be strong (seriously, I have had women tell me this) and don't care at all about body fat percentages. They just want to be good runners. And even though I don't understand it, I can respect it. They have different goals than I do, and that's fine.
But there are women (a lot of them) who are running because they think running, in and of itself, burns fat. And the second you try to tell them that they could burn fat a lot more efficiently by eating at a deficit and getting really strong by lifting heavy weights, they get defensive, and they don't want to hear it. I used to be the same way. I had to learn through experience, so I have stopped trying to convince anyone of something they don't want to believe. I have a friend who runs marathons even though she admittedly hates running and says she only does it for exercise. She is nearly 30% body fat and is struggling to lose weight. But she doesn't believe her endless running and complete lack of resistance training have anything to do with it. And the crazy part is she has a PhD and works in higher education, and she still won't even read peer-reviewed studies about the advantages of strength training for people trying to lose body fat. So I'm pretty sure there's nothing I can say that will change her mind.
I'm pretty sure she doesn't want to give up her running days for strength training. For fear of becoming fatter (not necessary weigh more but fatter)
I think if you do a great amount of cardio w/o strength training, the body might tend to want to shed what it doesn't need. That includes msucle0 -
But there are women (a lot of them) who are running because they think running, in and of itself, burns fat. And the second you try to tell them that they could burn fat a lot more efficiently by eating at a deficit and getting really strong by lifting heavy weights, they get defensive, and they don't want to hear it. I used to be the same way.
Sometimes repetition is key. I was in this situation with someone today. One day the light bulb will go off.0 -
But there are women (a lot of them) who are running because they think running, in and of itself, burns fat. And the second you try to tell them that they could burn fat a lot more efficiently by eating at a deficit and getting really strong by lifting heavy weights, they get defensive, and they don't want to hear it. I used to be the same way.
Sometimes repetition is key. I was in this situation with someone today. One day the light bulb will go off.
Or results. Your progress has been incredible0 -
Thanks, bud! Much appreciated.0
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I think if you do a great amount of cardio w/o strength training, the body might tend to want to shed what it doesn't need. That includes msucle
That's why you convince your body that you need the muscle by continuing lift weights and don't eat at too heavy a deficit so your body doesn't get desperate.0 -
I think if you do a great amount of cardio w/o strength training, the body might tend to want to shed what it doesn't need. That includes msucle
That's why you convince your body that you need the muscle by continuing lift weights and don't eat at too heavy a deficit so your body doesn't get desperate.
Right. I think that was the main point of the article.
I've sort of wondered about this as I've seen lady friends do massive amounts of cardio and get frustrated because they are on the gym for 2 hours at a shot. Just doing cardio and some token BS lifts so they can say "I lift weights".
Ironically, I've ADDED running to my schedule. As while I do super setting with weights etc.. I don't do anything that's good calorie burner. Plus I sort of want to become a better runner.0 -
I am one of those who dislike cardio and cardio dislikes me - and after years of not budging any weight despite cardio (though admittedly I was never a serious runner), I have now shifted to NROF4W - but when I am told that on recovery days I should not do any intense cardio, I must say I feel guilty, like there are a thousand little shocked voices in my head, whispering "what, no cardio"? Is it indeed okay to do only lifting and no cardio at all? or some amount of cardio on the non lifting days is actually advisable, if it is kept at a low-key level?0
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Just speaking from my own experience. Diet is the main contributor to fat loss(while lifting), not really cardio. But I find it difficult to eat what I want and still stay in my macros if I don't do cardio. Lifting doesn't add the caloric burn necessary to do that. At least not on this site's measurements (that brings up another question of how many calories real heavy lifting burns Especially squats and deads).
I'll do light cardio after legs to help combat soreness for the next few days. I have a hard time walking if I don't do something to get the blood going.
I try to run because there are a few very steep hikes I do that require cardiovascular fitness that running/cardio provides.
I think it's fine to do light cardio on recovery days. I think it's not advised if you go full on intense cardio.0 -
Thanks for sharing your experience. I am struggling myself with MFP logging - it seesm to calculate my calories at a near starvation level, my lifting workout counts for zilch calories (or near zilch) and I am told it overstates cardio - so I guess I have to take all numbers with a pinch of salt (which if I log in, will surely show my sodium intake as too high!!) - and hope that the process of logging will add to increased compliance.0
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Here is a rebuttal to the piece in the OP:
http://www.runnersworld.com/health/how-does-endurance-training-affect-your-thyroid-and-vice-versaOkay, okay, I’m done. The reason I went through these 11 studies so exhaustively is because this is such a prime example of someone making a totally unambiguous claim (“studies demonstrate beyond a doubt...”), citing a pile of studies, and then apparently assuming that no one will actually look at the studies. In this case, I don’t know if it’s deliberate misdirection, or if the guy simply didn’t have access to the full text of the studies he’s citing, or just couldn’t be bothered to read them – but the result is the same.
Bottom line is that the author of the orginal blog post did not read (or understand) the references he cited. T3 levels may drop initially on starting exercise (or upping intensity) but they soon normalize. If you add additional stress to your body (by not eating enough) T3 can stay low. Which is why MFP recommends eating back exercise calories. But just not eating enough can have the same effect on T3: it's the under-eating that does it, not the exercise.
tl;dr - don't get your science from blog posts.0 -
One recent thing I've done.
I had my macros set at 1 lb/week. But as I got closer to my goals, it started to get really tough. I actually adjusted my macros to 1/2 lb per week. This actually UPPED my calorie allotment. In theory, I should gain right?
But in reality, I was able to be more honest about my logging. I've tried to be more diligent about my logging also.
I still log my strength training under cardiovascular. As I double and triple set and I train for 60 min. It has to be burning something. But this site only adds around 200 calories or so for lifting. Not much but its something. I'm also trying to do more cardio.
Since adjusting, I've been able to see the weight SLOWLY start creeping down again. Could be I'm better/more honest about logging. It could be I'm actually eating closer to what I actually log (vs cheating and not logging). It could be that extra cardio is the difference. I don't know.
Without knowing your weight etc...I'll assume you have your calorie deficit set to high? I think this site works but you have to be ultra honest about logging the calories0 -
Thanks Richard!
I would have to say that a lot of people waste a lot of time at the gym. For instance, I used to spend over an hour an a half on weight circuits. Now I'm doing NROLFW, I'm in and out in just under 30 minutes, because I'm not doing peripheral crap that doesn't get me where I want to be.
Same thing with cardio. All of us know women who spend inordinate time doing it EVERY DAY and worrying about how to get more in. I'm still getting major increases in running speed and efficiency (because I'm new) doing about 2 and a half hours of running *a week*. And I experienced awesome weight loss and terrific muscle gain in my legs at the same time. (my thighs are like iron).
I spend 3-4 hours a week on my body, and that's sustainable for me. I'm very happy with my results so far.
Training stupid is a waste of time. But we knew that already.
Jeff - I'm a complete newbie runner, but I'm loving the Runner's World "SmartCoach" training plan. It's tailored to you and very efficient.0 -
Here is a rebuttal to the piece in the OP:
http://www.runnersworld.com/health/how-does-endurance-training-affect-your-thyroid-and-vice-versaOkay, okay, I’m done. The reason I went through these 11 studies so exhaustively is because this is such a prime example of someone making a totally unambiguous claim (“studies demonstrate beyond a doubt...”), citing a pile of studies, and then apparently assuming that no one will actually look at the studies. In this case, I don’t know if it’s deliberate misdirection, or if the guy simply didn’t have access to the full text of the studies he’s citing, or just couldn’t be bothered to read them – but the result is the same.
Bottom line is that the author of the orginal blog post did not read (or understand) the references he cited. T3 levels may drop initially on starting exercise (or upping intensity) but they soon normalize. If you add additional stress to your body (by not eating enough) T3 can stay low. Which is why MFP recommends eating back exercise calories. But just not eating enough can have the same effect on T3: it's the under-eating that does it, not the exercise.
tl;dr - don't get your science from blog posts.
QFT!!!0 -
Thanks for sharing your experience. I am struggling myself with MFP logging - it seesm to calculate my calories at a near starvation level, my lifting workout counts for zilch calories (or near zilch) and I am told it overstates cardio - so I guess I have to take all numbers with a pinch of salt (which if I log in, will surely show my sodium intake as too high!!) - and hope that the process of logging will add to increased compliance.
This is a question that the moderators should answer, but my experience was that my activity level was set for sedentary because I work a desk job. However, this underestimated my BMR numbers I got from hydrostatic testing, so I adjusted my activity level to reflect the more accurate BMR.0 -
Here is a rebuttal to the piece in the OP:
http://www.runnersworld.com/health/how-does-endurance-training-affect-your-thyroid-and-vice-versaOkay, okay, I’m done. The reason I went through these 11 studies so exhaustively is because this is such a prime example of someone making a totally unambiguous claim (“studies demonstrate beyond a doubt...”), citing a pile of studies, and then apparently assuming that no one will actually look at the studies. In this case, I don’t know if it’s deliberate misdirection, or if the guy simply didn’t have access to the full text of the studies he’s citing, or just couldn’t be bothered to read them – but the result is the same.
Bottom line is that the author of the orginal blog post did not read (or understand) the references he cited. T3 levels may drop initially on starting exercise (or upping intensity) but they soon normalize. If you add additional stress to your body (by not eating enough) T3 can stay low. Which is why MFP recommends eating back exercise calories. But just not eating enough can have the same effect on T3: it's the under-eating that does it, not the exercise.
tl;dr - don't get your science from blog posts.
I'll read the article. But the original one mentions women pigging out and then doing 2x the cardio to combat it. so the implication there is that it's not under eating. Not unless they are doing so much cardio that its putting them at a too high of a deficit.0 -
Here is a rebuttal to the piece in the OP:
http://www.runnersworld.com/health/how-does-endurance-training-affect-your-thyroid-and-vice-versa
tl;dr - don't get your science from blog posts.
Interesting you say that because that rebuttal:
Let me start this blog.............0 -
Here is a rebuttal to the piece in the OP:
http://www.runnersworld.com/health/how-does-endurance-training-affect-your-thyroid-and-vice-versaOkay, okay, I’m done. The reason I went through these 11 studies so exhaustively is because this is such a prime example of someone making a totally unambiguous claim (“studies demonstrate beyond a doubt...”), citing a pile of studies, and then apparently assuming that no one will actually look at the studies. In this case, I don’t know if it’s deliberate misdirection, or if the guy simply didn’t have access to the full text of the studies he’s citing, or just couldn’t be bothered to read them – but the result is the same.
Bottom line is that the author of the orginal blog post did not read (or understand) the references he cited. T3 levels may drop initially on starting exercise (or upping intensity) but they soon normalize. If you add additional stress to your body (by not eating enough) T3 can stay low. Which is why MFP recommends eating back exercise calories. But just not eating enough can have the same effect on T3: it's the under-eating that does it, not the exercise.
tl;dr - don't get your science from blog posts.
I'll read the article. But the original one mentions women pigging out and then doing 2x the cardio to combat it. so the implication there is that it's not under eating. Not unless they are doing so much cardio that its putting them at a too high of a deficit.
Well, that comment was highly anecdotal (and the plural of anecdote is NOT data). He may have seen them pigging out one day, and then did not see them starving the rest of the week.0 -
Here is a rebuttal to the piece in the OP:
http://www.runnersworld.com/health/how-does-endurance-training-affect-your-thyroid-and-vice-versa
tl;dr - don't get your science from blog posts.
Interesting you say that because that rebuttal:
Let me start this blog.............
Bonus points for spotting the irony :drinker:
But go read the actual papers if you don't believe the RW post. Here are the abstracts of 2 of them.Induction of low-T3 syndrome in exercising women occurs at a threshold of energy availability.
Loucks AB, Heath EM.
Source
Department of Biological Sciences, Ohio University, Athens 45701-2979.
Abstract
To investigate the relationship between energy availability (dietary energy intake minus energy expended during exercise) and thyroid metabolism, we studied 27 untrained, regularly menstruating women who performed approximately 30 kcal.kg lean body mass (LBM)-1.day-1 of supervised ergometer exercise at 70% of aerobic capacity for 4 days in the early follicular phase. A clinical dietary product was used to set energy availability in four groups (10.8, 19.0, 25.0, 40.4 kcal.kg LBM-1.day-1). For 9 days beginning 3 days before treatments, blood was sampled once daily at 8 A.M. Initially, thyroxine (T4) and free T4 (fT4), 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine (T3) and free T3 (fT3), and reverse T3 (rT3) were in the normal range for all subjects. Repeated-measures one-way analysis of variance followed by one-sided, two-sample post hoc Fischer's least significant difference tests of changes by treatment day 4 revealed that reductions in T3 (16%, P < 0.00001) and fT3 (9%, P < 0.01) occurred abruptly between 19.0 and 25.0 kcal.kg LBM-1.day-1 and that increases in fT4 (11%, P < 0.05) and rT3 (22%, P < 0.01) occurred abruptly between 10.8 and 19.0 kcal.kg LBM-1.day-1. Changes in T4 could not be distinguished. If energy deficiency suppresses reproductive as well as thyroid function, athletic amenorrhea might be prevented or reversed by increasing energy availability through dietary reform to 25 kcal.kg LBM-1.day-1, without moderating the exercise regimen.
Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8160876Induction and prevention of low-T3 syndrome in exercising women.
Loucks AB, Callister R.
Source
Department of Biological Sciences, College of Osteopathic Medicine, Ohio University, Athens 45701.
Abstract
To investigate the influence of exercise on thyroid metabolism, 46 healthy young regularly menstruating sedentary women were randomly assigned to a 3 x 2 experimental design of aerobic exercise and energy availability treatments. Energy availability was defined as dietary energy intake minus energy expenditure during exercise. After 4 days of treatments, low energy availability (8 vs. 30 kcal.kg body wt-1.day-1) had reduced 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine (T3) by 15% and free T3 (fT3) by 18% and had increased thyroxine (T4) by 7% and reverse T3 (rT3) by 24% (all P < 0.01), whereas free T4 (fT4) was unchanged (P = 0.08). Exercise quantity (0 vs. 1,300 kcal/day) and intensity (40 vs. 70% of aerobic capacity) did not affect any thyroid hormone (all P > 0.10). That is, low-T3 syndrome was induced by the energy cost of exercise and was prevented in exercising women by increasing dietary energy intake. Selective observation of low-T3 syndrome in amenorrheic and not in regularly menstruating athletes suggests that exercise may compromise the availability of energy for reproductive function in humans. If so, athletic amenorrhea might be prevented or reversed through dietary reform without reducing exercise quantity or intensity.
Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/84986020 -
The article wasn't posted a statement of absolute. But others to view from someone looking at the other side. Who would think that too much cardio would be a detriment to weight loss? Or not eating enough would be a detriment to weight loss?
For all the semantic discussion about T3 levels, you have people here that cardio themselves to death and wonder why they aren't improving. Either from too much cardio or not enough calories. Or BOTH. Too much cardio AND not enough calories. Both could bring about a too large of a calorie deficit that the body sees as stress.0
