high carb meals at night every 10 days - is it worth it?
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I'm struggling a bit with cravings right now from my two week long break from keto on vacation. I ate lots of carbs, though made pretty healthy choices all the way around. I ate a little too much resort made coconut ice cream, which is the dreamiest, creamiest coconut ice cream I have ever tasted, and yeah, I'm a self-proclaimed ice cream aficionado.
Anyhow, the struggle is real right now. I want to eat all the things. Overall, I feel it is a craving for a higher level of calories vs. starchy carbs/sugar, but it's there, trying to undermine me.
I re-started keto on Thursday Dec 4, so I feel like this should have subsided by now. I'm pretty sure I entered ketosis two days ago, as I have noticed that awful metallic taste in my mouth that I get, and the nail polish remover smelling urine that I get when I first go into ketosis. I know I'm on shaky ground at this stage of the game, but I intend to stay on full keto until Christmas day, when I will eat all the lovely things I'm making for our huge dinner party.
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here's my personal experience with cheats:
in august i began eating 'primal', and got to around 4 weeks, 8 lbs lost. i started reading about carb refeeds etc. so i brilliantly got the idea "WOW i can eat cake every week!!" well, that lax attitude really doesnt work for me and my ocd mindset...i ended up cheating way too much, and blew the whole woe out of the water.
this go 'round, im approximately 4 weeks in, ive lost very near to 10 lbs, and ive had two days of higher carbs, and just got right back on the horse the day after....and i would gain a couple and then lose it all plus. im not saying that im going to introduce the refeeds, because frankly, the carb binge hangover just isnt worth it in my book.
just my experience. i dont want that hunger back, i dont want those cravings.0 -
LK & SLJ;LoraKay131 wrote: »here's my personal experience with cheats:
in august i began eating 'primal', and got to around 4 weeks, 8 lbs lost. i started reading about carb refeeds etc. so i brilliantly got the idea "WOW i can eat cake every week!!" well, that lax attitude really doesnt work for me and my ocd mindset...i ended up cheating way too much, and blew the whole woe out of the water.
this go 'round, im approximately 4 weeks in, ive lost very near to 10 lbs, and ive had two days of higher carbs, and just got right back on the horse the day after....and i would gain a couple and then lose it all plus. im not saying that im going to introduce the refeeds, because frankly, the carb binge hangover just isnt worth it in my book.
just my experience. i dont want that hunger back, i dont want those cravings.
Not many things in the LCHF "world" can be stated to apply, almost universally, to "most".
One (and perhaps the "only" one) that can though, is the significant reduction in "hunger pangs" and "almost" total elimination of "cravings" (once fat adapted and sugars, grains, refineds, etc - "free".
We can debate, argue, discuss, the details and "whys" of all sorts of things but when it comes to cravings, there is really very little "debate" as to how, and why, LCHF "works" and how fragile it can be.
Is it carb/sugar specific or cal specific?
Who knows, but more importantly - "should" one care?
For me, it's enough to know that "falling off the wagon" MIGHT "feel good" in the moment, BUT it will, for sure, result in my body "spanking" me (hard) and the trade off just isn't worth it.
Absolutely NOT judging anyone (except myself).
I've gone "off the reservation" - we ALL have (probably), that's not the point.
Selfishly, I'm primarily interested in convincing myself so the next time I think about it.....
If it helps someone else, so much the better.
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LoraKay131 wrote: »well, that lax attitude really doesnt work for me and my ocd mindset...i ended up cheating way too much, and blew the whole woe out of the water.
This I can understand a lot, and one of my golden rules losing weight this time has been that any changes must be planned in advance, so if I was having a cheat day/ refeed, it would only be the one I planned in advance, and not an impromptu one in the spur of the moment when things during the day had gone pear-shaped
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By the way as an update to this it did give good results. The weight loss was immediate this time next morning (pre breakfast and post poop) 0.8kg loss compared to previous day in the same conditions.
I chose not to continue though for the following reasons:
1- I felt horrible the next day. I had a whoosh but i couldn't think clearly and my stomach was not well. It could be just bad choices in food though.
2- I had horrible cramps during the night (this was expected from the information i had read) but they were severe. From what i read the cramps continue and the solution is just to keep hydrated. I kept hydrated and still had them.
3- My wife just got on keto and if i did carbnites it would really be disruptive to her.
Overall i can confirm that for me it gave the results anticipated.
Sorry for posting this long after.
I had about 250g of carbs within a 2 hour window focusing on high GI carbs so mainly potatoes and breads as indicated. Only fruit was 2 bananas. I ended up 610 calories higher than my normal deficit eating which put me right at my calculated maintenance.0 -
I can empathise with your feedback above, middleagedmeh, and found while carb feeds or refeeds can help, they were just not worth it for me, and plainly just did not like them, lol.
I'm not sure if you're eating low-carb for health reasons or weight-loss, but if the latter, what I'm finding is working for me weightloss-wise is throwing in a regular (ie non-low carb) meal as I see fit, with no regard for schedule, but rather instead when I feel to do so.
From a weightloss and intake-adherence point of view I'm finding it is working quite well thus far, and the ravenous levels of hunger I was feeling consistently for the last month or so (that I can only attribute to my hunger hormones being significantly out of whack), seem to be back on an even keel
I know it's not low-carb, but thus far I'm finding it a far more tolerable alternative to refeeds, although if I wanted to do it in a more structured way, and stick to a stricter low-carb regime, I would probably make sure my breakfasts and lunches were low carb, and have a regular evening meal that included starchy carbs.
Bear in mind, this is all from a weightloss-centric point of view, and know the above would not be relevant to someone that is eating low-carb or keto for health reasons.
ETA: I know this is in contravention of my previous post, where I spoke of planned changes/ refeeds/ cheat days, but right now am finding at the moment after a 5/ 6 months of a sustained deficit and aggressive enough goals, a relaxed approach seems to be working best right now for me, although I am careful to make sure things do not slide, lol 0 -
Yesterday was our Christmas lunch at work where I had a green leafy salad without any grain. I had asked for buttermilk ranch dressing but it may have been something with more sugar. Later in the day I had a small orange. At breakfast I had had 6 carbs in the almonds I ate.
That amount of carbs almost knocked me out of ketosis and this AM my pain while not bad has ticked up a notch.
In light of this very low load of carbs I am getting the picture in my case that at 63 with a life time of abusing carbs for some reason I may have to stay forever under 50 g daily with none from added sugar or maybe even fruit. Time will tell. I am OK with no carbing but it really is hard to do. I guess for salad dressing I am going without or try sour cream maybe. Just vinegar or something like that may work. I am already doing that when it is a cole slaw option.
Weight wise I am down four more pounds for Dec to 216. Full Time keto started first of Oct (was in and out during Aug/Sept) and lost 10 that month and none in Nov. Earlier in the year I had dropped from 250 to 230 by just eating less and 'watching' the sweets. Just as a note I did hit 215 for a day or two last week but with intent got back to 217 because I went from 220 to 215 very fast.
Have never practiced it but the idea of losing max of 10% of body weight and then maintain for 6 months then go for the next 10% then hold for 6 months does make sense based on the science I have read. My fear of yo yoing again is my big concern. I do agree losing weight is the easy part compared to keeping it off until death.
Thanks for the update guys.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »
Have never practiced it but the idea of losing max of 10% of body weight and then maintain for 6 months then go for the next 10% then hold for 6 months does make sense based on the science I have read. My fear of yo yoing again is my big concern. I do agree losing weight is the easy part compared to keeping it off until death.
Is that about body setpoint science ? Just curious, although think I would never have the patience for it, lol. Even right now, the thought of losing just 1/2 a lb a week strikes me as tortorously slow (personally)
Yo-yo'ing is a fear also myself, especially after fluctuating between 215 & 180 over the last 3 years. Not sure what's different this time, but think some of it is the thought of being slim for the first time in my life potentially. I know a lot of the stuff about regain is negative, and purposely avoid it though, as all the conclusions drawn about long term weight loss success and relapse just seem too wishy-washy/ vague to me. I'm rambling now though, lol
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Gale,
Many salad dressings are just vinegar and oil. Ratio of 1:3. Put it all in a jar or tupperware (liquid tight) container and shake it. Add in some Dijon mustard and herbs and shake some more.
I make a dressing out of sour cream with a little bit of vinegar (apple cider vinegar is my favourite) mixed in to thin it out. Add in whatever herbs or mustard you like.
Those two dressings should give you plenty of scope to add to salads. I also like the sour cream dressing mashed into boiled egg. Add some crumbled cooked bacon. (I cook bacon in large batches in the oven so there's always boiled eggs and bacon in the fridge.) Wrap it up in a lettuce leaf.
Like iloseityes, I also wouldn't have the patience to lost 10% and then maintain for 6 months. 0 -
iloseityes wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »
Have never practiced it but the idea of losing max of 10% of body weight and then maintain for 6 months then go for the next 10% then hold for 6 months does make sense based on the science I have read. My fear of yo yoing again is my big concern. I do agree losing weight is the easy part compared to keeping it off until death.
Is that about body setpoint science ? Just curious, although think I would never have the patience for it, lol. Even right now, the thought of losing just 1/2 a lb a week strikes me as tortorously slow (personally)
Yo-yo'ing is a fear also myself, especially after fluctuating between 215 & 180 over the last 3 years. Not sure what's different this time, but think some of it is the thought of being slim for the first time in my life potentially. I know a lot of the stuff about regain is negative, and purposely avoid it though, as all the conclusions drawn about long term weight loss success and relapse just seem too wishy-washy/ vague to me. I'm rambling now though, lol
Setpoint is a relative new term to me and not sure what I think about it but would like to know more.
10% then 6 months maintain I think is to develop good eating lifestyle to prevent regain and prevent potential bodily harm from yo yo'ing dieting.
If a 300 pound person (a stone is 14 pounds I finally learned) wants to lose 100 pounds and can NOT lose 30 pounds THEN keep it off for 6 months is I expect kidding themselves that they are going to lose 100 pounds and not regain it.
If does keep it off then drop 27 more and keep the 57 pounds off for another 6 months we can agree they have developed an eating lifestyle that can last them a lifetime. Loose skin might be less of a problem as well as less potential harm to body organs.
Folks I too am rambling.
There is so much to learn about how to develop an eating lifestyle and the science we need so badly just has not been done yet but I think that is/will continue to change. I have a key employee insurance exam coming up in 2015 to help protect my investors and I really want to be under 200 (195 will do long term in my mind) so I need to lose another 20 from today which will be more like 20% of my 250 starting weight earlier in the year.
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Gale,
Many salad dressings are just vinegar and oil. Ratio of 1:3. Put it all in a jar or tupperware (liquid tight) container and shake it. Add in some Dijon mustard and herbs and shake some more.
I make a dressing out of sour cream with a little bit of vinegar (apple cider vinegar is my favourite) mixed in to thin it out. Add in whatever herbs or mustard you like.
Those two dressings should give you plenty of scope to add to salads. I also like the sour cream dressing mashed into boiled egg. Add some crumbled cooked bacon. (I cook bacon in large batches in the oven so there's always boiled eggs and bacon in the fridge.) Wrap it up in a lettuce leaf.
Like iloseityes, I also wouldn't have the patience to lost 10% and then maintain for 6 months.
Thanks Sayyana. I can do a lot of things because I followed my dad from the time I could walk so my kitchen time was limited but I did learn how to make the best waxy chocolate oatmeal cookies of any that I have ever eaten. Hey if you are going to abuse carbs you have to learn how to make them first.
Thanks for your know how info. I was wondering how I was going to mix a cold chunk of of sour cream into a cold salad.
At this point I am starting to think I can make LCHF a life long eating lifestyle. The sugar in the dressings was a major hang up when eating out which is what I often do.
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Gale,
Cooking is what I do. I've always liked it. I was cooking and eating what I thought was healthy diet. Then I couldn't understand why I was getting bigger. Little did I know. I still cook. It's just different foods now.
I had a thought. If you eat out often you could take your own dressing with you in a small container and order your meal without any dressings or sauce. Would make it much easier for you when ordering. If you heat the sour cream dressing it makes a great sauce for meat if you make it a little thicker. It won't be hot if you take it when you go out but it might be ok if you need a sauce.
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@iloseityes
I started for weight loss but now I just enjoy the health benefits. I am very close to where I want be for weight.
I think the carb re feeds are a good idea but it looks like the science is once again counter intuitive on this one. There are rules at least for weight loss that work for me. It has to be high GI carbs (the bad kind) and a lot of them in a 2 to 3 hour window preferably before bed followed by a strict return to keto and no re feeds for at least 7 to 10 days. So once again with the OCD mindset you have to chose the times and not let them chose you.
The evolutionary argument I heard about was actually interesting:
humans for thousands of years before agriculture used to have carbs as feasts. They would get a honey or find a date tree or something like that. so our bodies are used to no carbs for months and then a whole bunch of carbs at once then nothing again for a long time.
I am currently on vacation and I know the risk of abusing this concept are too high so no carbs until Christmas eve.
I know that for some of us (diabetics, people recovering from eating disorder and other medical conditions) this is a slippery slope. I am not saying go carb up.0 -
@GaleHawkins
Regainin has been a major fear for me too.
It seems like people like us who were very fat at some point are at a much higher risk because our fat cells remain almost intact and in almost the same numbers as when we were at our heaviest. With most diets out there at one point or another they will cause a "panic" and demand to be refilled. This is translated by increase hunger and no satiety and usually break the diet. The body will protect itself from perceived starvation.
The great thing about long term lchf is that it helps a little with that because the fat cells although smaller are still very active. Increasing insulin sensitivity makes the fat cells more likely to store extra stuff and release it then store again when you eat. Intermittent fasting (without calorie restriction) seems to help with that as well. It is possible that the increased activity tricks the system into not panicking.
There is a ton of research done on why the body always wants to get back to the heaviest weight. The only 100 percent sure way to avoid it is to deliberately kill the adipocites... With surgery and even then some people have a theory that the hormonal imbalance lipo causes just makes the cells reproduce faster to get back to thwir original numbers. I am not willing to go through that.
It is an uphill battle. I would love to see one day the fat cell killer pill in stores.0 -
Mid;middleagedmeh wrote: »@iloseityes
I started for weight loss but now I just enjoy the health benefits. I am very close to where I want be for weight.
I think the carb re feeds are a good idea but it looks like the science is once again counter intuitive on this one. <snipped>
The evolutionary argument I heard about was actually interesting:
humans for thousands of years before agriculture used to have carbs as feasts.
<snip>
I know that for some of us (diabetics, people recovering from eating disorder and other medical conditions) this is a slippery slope. I am not saying go carb up.
The "problem" I have with "The evolutionary argument...." is that it depends to a very large degree on WHICH (evolutionary argument) one uses to attempt to "prove" their point.
Too often, it focuses on one specific set of "cultural" circumstances and conveniently ignores the "outliars".
While one group of peoples certainly did "...get honey or...dates..." - it's unlikely that Arctic nomads stumbled across many beehives or date trees, or that those existing in rice fields in the Orient didn't consume large quantities of starch and yet remain lean.
Probably not the best examples but I think you get where I'm coming from.
For every example commonly cited, there's an (or many) exception.
I don't know the answer, and certainly anyone is free to draw their own conclusions about which "theory" they choose to believe, but I remain "confused" and "uncertain" <g>.
My "gut" tells me that carb "refeeds" or "feasts" don't make sense. Certainly not for ME (for many of the same reasons you've cited), but, in general for "most" Low Carbers. But recently I've been reading some of Dave Asprey's stuff (the "bulletproof coffee guy), and he makes a pretty compelling argument that very limited, and targeted, carb excursions, "might" be a good idea - at least for "some".
Once I have a better understanding of all he is saying I'll probably give it a try.
If you are interested and haven't seen it - have a looksee here:
tinyurl.com/n6ctda9
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I'm not really adding anything to this discussion, but I want to comment on the fact that people in this group can have a discussion and talk about the merits, or lack-there-of an idea without retreating to name calling, or thinking their idea is the only one that might possibly be right!
It's refreshing to read so thanks! 0
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