I think it is the higher protein or pure protein which enables the body to make more of the long and short chain something or others. Fine, as long as you are not a vegetarian. I think true Paleo reduces grains which can have beneficial results for some. Also Selenium added iodine in the diet or taken in higher levels as been shown to reduce the antibodies which attack the thyroid. It binds the mineral which blocks the t4 becoming t3.

There are so many causes for thyroid problems, to much/too little iodine, two other glands the one on the kidneys and the other at the back of the head not functioning well, that's before you get to the liver and what ever else in the elimination systems.

Sorry I am so vague but its late here and I don't have my notes to hand.

from what i understand my antibodies are killing my thyroid, its part of the autoimmune system thinking its protecting me for what ever reason that is. currently in a hyper phase of hashimoto's but im not losing weight and i cant gain i weigh 240 pound and need to lose. im looking for ideas.

Aswennu wrote: »

This sounds interesting, but as a vegetarian how/what would I eat on a paleo diet?

I'm not on the Paleo diet, but my understanding is that it is based on what one might have eaten if alive during the Paleolithic era. It would exclude processed foods and farmed foods (since this time period is believed to have preceded farming) such as grains. I'm not sure if you eat dairy, but I don't think that is allowed. Generally, paleo dieters say that legumes (beans, peanuts) are not allowed because they were not available until farming was developed.

So you can see that it limits you quite a bit, as you are limited to only certain fruits and vegetables. The paleo diet limits you... a vegetarian diet limits you.... so of course doing both is going to limit you a lot, particularly if many of the foods allowed in one diet are excluded from the other. There are things that you can eat, but you are living off apples and lettuce.

For what it's worth, I would point out that the paleo diet is not entirely the "meat only" diet that everyone makes it out to be, as it includes a lot of healthy fruits and vegetables as well. My complaint about the paleo diet is that it seems to be formed with un-confirmed assumptions. While there may be some benefits, it isn't the perfect diet that some die-hard paleo supporters think it is; and it was developed in opposition to scientific facts (such as that we evolved with teeth made for grinding contrary to the argument that our teeth were made mainly for cutting and ripping). In the end, we are omnivores and I would much rather focus on including or excluding specific foods than use a vague blanket like the paleo diet does.

Though I haven't eliminated grains, I will make the point that various studies continue to be released showing that grains can be harmful to humans. If anything, one should be eating organic grains. Roundup is a concern of mine based on some of the research available, and they don't use Roundup on organic foods.

According to the Mayo Clinic http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hypothyroidism/expert-answers/hypothyroidism-diet/faq-20058554

"Is there any truth to the hypothyroidism diet? Can certain foods increase thyroid function?

Answers from Todd B. Nippoldt, M.D.

Generally, there's no hypothyroidism diet. Although claims about hypothyroidism diets abound, there's no evidence that eating or avoiding certain foods will improve thyroid function in people with hypothyroidism."

NexStar3 wrote: »

editorgrrl wrote: »

According to the Mayo Clinic http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hypothyroidism/expert-answers/hypothyroidism-diet/faq-20058554

"Is there any truth to the hypothyroidism diet? Can certain foods increase thyroid function?

Answers from Todd B. Nippoldt, M.D.

Generally, there's no hypothyroidism diet. Although claims about hypothyroidism diets abound, there's no evidence that eating or avoiding certain foods will improve thyroid function in people with hypothyroidism."

Again I feel that they are giving you main stream, generic answers. Rather pedestrian attitude if you ask me. Sometimes it is hard for large institutions to support homeopathic type ideas. I don't understand how one can talk about the integrative treating of the whole body without acknowledging diet(as in food) at the same time. JMO

Especially when you're dealing with a condition in which the most common manifestation is auto-immune in origin (as Hashimoto's is the most common cause for hypothyroidism) and it's pretty commonly accepted that food can have a significant impact on those with auto-immune disorders.

I imagine that this often-quoted passage by Editorgrrl is either gravely mistaken or intentionally misleading in that respect.

editorgrrl wrote: »

My endocrinologist told me to eat whatever I want. I lost the weight thanks to MFP (calories in vs. calories out), and my thyroid levels eventually entered the "normal" range thanks to Synthroid & Cytomel.

I never said don't go paleo—but I am definitely saying you don't have to.

Editorgrrl -- do you have an auto-immune basis for your hypothyroid issue (Hashi's or otherwise)?

Because if you don't, I can totally see no reason for a change in diet. But, if you do, I can see a reason for it. Not all hypo folks are Hashi's (or other auto-immune basis). And if you do have Hashi's, that would be pretty surprising to hear.

If you see great results with no diet change, that's awesome. I only wish I were so lucky (and I'm sure others feel similarly).

editorgrrl wrote: »

I have Hashimoto's. I never said I lost weight without any diet change. I eat all the same foods I did before diagnosis (Aug. 2012)—I just eat less.

I honestly thought I gained 30 lbs. for no good reason. But learning to log everything I eat accurately & honestly showed me I was eating way too much. I think Hashi's has messed up my hunger cues. I lost slowly (30 lbs. in a year in a half), but I've maintained for more than six months—by logging for more than 800 days straight.

Also, I lost all the weight before my thyroid levels ever entered the "normal" range. Synthroid & Cytomel reduce the fatigue so I can be more active. But I kept gaining until I learned to log. For me, logging works.

That's great to hear. I think logging for many works. But many have also found that relying on calories alone isn't 100% of the solution -- that the type of calorie, in addition to the sheer quantity, makes a huge difference for some.

I wish I was one of those people that lost the same amount of weight or maintained just as easily with sheer caloric numbers. But, my own logging experiences has shown me that that isn't the case. I do much better -- in terms of weight loss/maintenance as well as hypo symptoms -- when I avoid certain foods. It's a bummer, but once you realize the connection, it makes the choices much easier because you realize that you won't feel as well and the scale/body fat percentage won't reflect nearly as well.

Just like how people eat differently to help recover after heavy lifting. Getting a proper amount of carbs and protein after heavy lifting helps you recover better, so you can lift more the next time. The sheer number of calories is important too, but the type of calories (carbs, protein, fat) makes a huge difference for many. Not all calories are the same in the body and each person's body reacts to them somewhat differently, especially those with atypical issues like Hashi's.

Good to hear that you're one of the lucky ones!

twinkles2121 wrote: »

lindsey1979 wrote: »

editorgrrl wrote: »

I have Hashimoto's. I never said I lost weight without any diet change. I eat all the same foods I did before diagnosis (Aug. 2012)—I just eat less.

I honestly thought I gained 30 lbs. for no good reason. But learning to log everything I eat accurately & honestly showed me I was eating way too much. I think Hashi's has messed up my hunger cues. I lost slowly (30 lbs. in a year in a half), but I've maintained for more than six months—by logging for more than 800 days straight.

Also, I lost all the weight before my thyroid levels ever entered the "normal" range. Synthroid & Cytomel reduce the fatigue so I can be more active. But I kept gaining until I learned to log. For me, logging works.

That's great to hear. I think logging for many works. But many have also found that relying on calories alone isn't 100% of the solution -- that the type of calorie, in addition to the sheer quantity, makes a huge difference for some.

I wish I was one of those people that lost the same amount of weight or maintained just as easily with sheer caloric numbers. But, my own logging experiences has shown me that that isn't the case. I do much better -- in terms of weight loss/maintenance as well as hypo symptoms -- when I avoid certain foods. It's a bummer, but once you realize the connection, it makes the choices much easier because you realize that you won't feel as well and the scale/body fat percentage won't reflect nearly as well.

Just like how people eat differently to help recover after heavy lifting. Getting a proper amount of carbs and protein after heavy lifting helps you recover better, so you can lift more the next time. The sheer number of calories is important too, but the type of calories (carbs, protein, fat) makes a huge difference for many. Not all calories are the same in the body and each person's body reacts to them somewhat differently, especially those with atypical issues like Hashi's.

Good to hear that you're one of the lucky ones!

I was with you until the last sentence. I'm a firm believer that whatever you want to put in your mouth is your business and vice versa for myself, nor do I believe that we are all cookie cutter projections of each other. What works for one, won't work for all.

Although I take exception to her being considered 'lucky' because logging works for her. I have a long-standing history with graves, 2 rounds of chemical ablation and I am now hypo and on a regular dose of synthroid. Should I also be considered lucky because logging works for me?

I call it dedication when I lose weight by logging honestly, accurate and consistently while expending more fuel than I take in. Not Luck.

I didn't mean lucky in the effect of logging. I think logging works for everyone to some extent because a lot of people don't realize how much they're eating until they started logging -- which seems to be Editorgrrl's experience. She was just eating way too much and didn't realize it until she started logging. It doesn't sound like her case was exacerbated that much at all by her Hashi's -- she was a classic case of overeating.

I meant that she was lucky because reducing caloric value alone worked for her. I think that often works for many, but for some (especially those with other issues like Hashi's or insulin resistance), they also need to look at what they're eating in addition to how much they're eating because their bodies process certain foods or react to certain foods differently. Just continuing to cut calories for these people can be disastrous.

If it were all about just reducing calories for everyone, this would be a lot easier for many. But, from what I've seen, that's not the whole solution for everyone and certain people really do need to adjust the type of calories they're eating in addition to the quantity of calories they're eating.

I meant that she was lucky because reducing caloric value alone worked for her. I think that often works for many, but for some (especially those with other issues like Hashi's or insulin resistance), they also need to look at what they're eating in addition to how much they're eating because their bodies process certain foods or react to certain foods differently. Just continuing to cut calories for these people can be disastrous.

If it were all about just reducing calories for everyone, this would be a lot easier for many. But, from what I've seen, that's not the whole solution for everyone and certain people really do need to adjust the type of calories they're eating in addition to the quantity of calories they're eating.

I could not agree more. It is not only about how much you eat, but also what you eat.

editorgrrl wrote: »

twinkles2121 wrote: »

I'm a firm believer that whatever you want to put in your mouth is your business and vice versa for myself, nor do I believe that we are all cookie cutter projections of each other. What works for one, won't work for all.

Although I take exception to her being considered 'lucky' because logging works for her. I have a long-standing history with graves, 2 rounds of chemical ablation and I am now hypo and on a regular dose of synthroid. Should I also be considered lucky because logging works for me?

I call it dedication when I lose weight by logging honestly, accurate and consistently while expending more fuel than I take in. Not Luck.

^^^This. I have logged everything I eat & drink accurately & honestly for 813 days straight. I have Hashimoto's, and it took me a year & a half to lose 30 lbs. I'm not "lucky"—I worked bloody hard!

You lose weight by eating fewer calories than you burn. Yes, you can accomplish that by cutting lots of food out of your diet. But you don't have to.

According to the Mayo Clinic http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hypothyroidism/expert-answers/hypothyroidism-diet/faq-20058554

Generally, there's no hypothyroidism diet. Although claims about hypothyroidism diets abound, there's no evidence that eating or avoiding certain foods will improve thyroid function in people with hypothyroidism.

And this is the thing that drives me **nuts** about editorgrrl's perspective. I'm sorry, editorgrrl, but it's flat out ignorant and uneducated about the different manifestations that *can* be seen by those with hypothyroidism and in particular Hashimoto's. You have ONE manifestation -- one that is actually relatively lucky. One where all you have to do is take your thyroid medication and not overeat like a normal person -- all your stars have aligned. That's really not that hard in comparison to what many others have to deal with because they aren't so *lucky*. There are many others that have *OTHER* manifestations, much more difficult manifestations of Hashimotos that don't respond nearly so well to mere calorie restriction.

How would you have felt had you done EXACTLY what you say you've done -- all that hard work over 2 years -- and seen no results? Or worse yet, felt worse or even gained weight? What about those people?

Because there are those of us out there. I was cutting nearly 1000 calories a day below what I should have needed to -- with painstaking, weigh-every-single-morsel-that-went-into-my-mouth measuring. Cutting calories ALONE does not work for EVERYONE, regardless of this bs out-of-context Mayo clinic quote you keep citing.

It was actually finding out through meticulous tracking that the weight wasn't coming off as it should have been (as would be seen with a normal metabolism) which was what finally propelled a deeper dive by my doctor and eventually consulting a thyroid specialist. He did a battery of tests that 5 previous docs (including 2 endos) didn't. And, he found a host of issues stemming likely from long-untreated Hashimoto's -- some major vitamin/mineral deficiencies, insulin resistance, abysmally low DHEA levels, etc.

We got all of that sorted out, and voila, I started losing weight EXACTLY in tune with my calculated deficit. And, I'm sorry, counting calories and seeing the results you expect was 1000X easier than the crazymaking I was doing before (and many others have experienced). Simply eating less (in addition to my already active lifestyle) wasn't hard -- it was soooo much easier to what I was experiencing before. Because I was used to so much more onerous work, weight loss felt like a breeze at this point. Just eating less? Wow. That was pretty simple, finally.

And, from what I've read on other sites (here and more thyroid sites), my experience isn't terribly exceptional. In fact, it's actually somewhat common with those that have Hashi's -- or at least those that come to such sites looking for guidance about why calorie restriction and their thyroid medication isn't working. So, when people like editorgrrl come here and imply that is ALL that should be necessary because that is what worked for him/her -- essentially disrespecting and disproving others' valid experiences -- it is really infuriating and terribly, terribly unhelpful.

lindsey1979 wrote: »

And, from what I've read on other sites (here and more thyroid sites), my experience isn't terribly exceptional. In fact, it's actually somewhat common with those that have Hashi's -- or at least those that come to such sites looking for guidance about why calorie restriction and their thyroid medication isn't working. So, when people like editorgrrl come here and imply that is ALL that should be necessary because that is what worked for him/her -- essentially disrespecting and disproving others' valid experiences -- it is really infuriating and terribly, terribly unhelpful.

I simply MUST co-sign on this.

First, I must say that I'm jealous that editorgrrl was not only diagnosed fairly early on (from what I can gather from her previous responses on this board), but seems to have an omnipotent endocrinologist who magically was able to give her great treatment THAT WORKS FOR HER straight off the bat. Both of these experiences are very exceptional based on my own personal experience and the other 40+ people I know personally who have Hashimoto's. I know she put in a lot of hard work, but was able to successfully lose weight, and that's really fantastic.

I only wish everyone else could have editorgrrl's experience. Seriously.

Disclaimer: I tried the paleo diet at the suggestion of my doctor. I was RELIGIOUS about it for 5 months and had absolutely no change in symptoms. A close friend who also has Hashi's eats paleo and is absolutely thriving after years and years of no relief from any treatment regimen. I have another friend who does great on Synthroid only. My cousin suffers horribly when her antibodies are high (her bloodwork is otherwise perfect). This disease seems to take an individual course in everyone, and my current doctor says it is very frustrating to treat because of this.

I think it is super-disheartening to see comments like editorgrrl's dismissing and discrediting other people's personal experiences. The "I haven't experienced this, so it's not possible" or "MY ENDOCRINOLOGIST says to eat whatever I want, so any other dietary restrictions or changes are ridiculous" statements, are just downright depressing, in my opinion. I can only think of how horrible I would have felt if MFP had been around 15+ years ago when I was really struggling only to get this kind of feedback when I asked for help.

Point being what works for one person may not do jack *kitten* for someone else. Are you logging food and exercise accurately? That is almost always a good place to start, but it's not the only answer to stalled or nonexistent weight loss. Will Paleo help YOU lose weight? Why not try it and see? Will a different medication or vitamin supplements help you? They might, they might not. Why not try it and see what works *for you*?

Below is all the crap I went through to feel "normal". I would not wish my experience on anyone.

---

I had to threaten to sue my primary care physician to even get the initial blood test (despite family history, all the textbook symptoms, and a cholesterol level of 367). When he FINALLY agreed to run the blood test my TSH was 60, and my antibodies were so high that the lab stopped counting.

I was put on synthroid and felt even worse than I did before, and continued to gain 1/4 to 1/2 pound a week, despite consistently measuring and logging everything I ate, exercising like a maniac (more than 2 hours a day), and never eating over 1,000 calories TOTAL in any given day, ever.

I was consistently told by each of the 7 different endocrinologists that I saw that it couldn't possibly be my thyroid, that I needed to eat less and exercise more and quit whining. All of my continuing symptoms, including depression, joint pain, dry skin, high cholesterol, crazy blood sugar fluctuations, continuing high cholesterol, and crazy constipation were dismissed, and I was tested for every other fatigue-causing disease on the planet, to no avail.

I was nearly suicidal at that point. I was taking my prescribed medication and still felt like I was slowly dying.

I begged my primary care physician to test my thyroid hormone levels (after reading Mary Shomon's book), and guess what? My Free T3 was less than 1, my Vitamin D levels were non-detect, and I also had vitamin B and iron deficiencies. Even getting my various vitamin and mineral levels up did not help, as my Free T3 was still less than 2, my antibodies were also still high.

A lot of hard work later, I finally found a medication regimen that alleviates a lot of MY symptoms (Armour with a bit of extra T3), and a supplement regimen that works for me. I was able to drop 60 pounds a few years back, but only after my medication changed. I still have to exercise and watch what I eat, and my metabolism is a touch slow, but I'm doing very well now, comparatively speaking. I have some other hashi-related stuff going on (insulin resistance, consistently cold body temperature, etc.) that I'm fighting, but I'm doing all that I can to feel well.

tamaradwyer wrote: »

Wow wow wow, thanks @lindsey1979‌!

I have my semi-annual bloodwork next week and will see what it takes to get more of a detailed diagnosis (Hashimoto's or ???) and/or deeper tests. This month, I see some weight loss some weeks, and that is freakin' unusual and welcome. So I want to figure this out. I will go back and do the math of the weight lost and calorie deficit for each week and start charting that to build more data. Looking ahead six months, I'll either lose ten pounds or have some darn good data

Maybe I can get my doctor on board with getting my hormones and insulin tweaked in just right to lose and maintain weight like a normal person fairly consistently over years. Which is hugely important Right Now, I am on the brink of menopause.

Thank you, KCVance and Fuzzipeg -- I really truly do believe what editorgrrl has done here in regard to her responses is very dangerous. And it's truly disheartening from someone that has Hashi's. It makes me extremely skeptical of her entire story personally.

Tamara -- I'm sure these aren't all the tests, but the ones I remember were these:

Thyroid -- TSH, Free T3, Free T4, and antibodies (TPO and Tg)
Sugar/Insulin Resistance -- Fasting Glucose and A1C
Adrenals - DHEA and cortisol (maybe others)
Vitamin/Minerals -- Vitamin D, Magnesium, Iron (a couple different versions -- for free iron and iron stores), Iodine and a few others
Liver -- some sort of liver enzyme tests, but I don't remember what they were off the top of my head
"Standard" Panels -- like CBC, lipid panel, etc.

The thing with Hashimotos is it doesn't just effect your thyroid, it makes you much more prone to inflammation. For many people removing the inflammation triggers in the diet helps a lot. No, you won't grow back your thyroid, but you will feel better and your body will work better.

shadesofidaho wrote: »

I am feeling mostly OK but I think some of that is my LCHF WOE basically Atkins. But then I just heard a pod cast last night Atkins low carb is not good for us Thyroid folks. YIKES It is the only way I can even stand a chance of losing a pound or two...

Do what works for you, Chris. There is no one right answer for us Thyroid folks, we each have specific chemistry at play.

Fantastic posts @kcvance and @lindsey1979‌, thank you so much.