If you can tolerate a bit higher carbs there's nothing wrong with that. I am metabolically challenged and must stick with very low carb to lose/maintain weight, and because I am insulin resistant I need to try and keep my insulin low as well. I do think there is good evidence to avoid grains most of the time (I'm not perfect there myself) but many people do fine on moderate carb, it certainly is better than what the average person eats.

wabmester wrote: »

I get lonely here sometimes. It seems like the whole world has gone keto on me.

This is the first weight-loss diet I've ever been on (tried other diets years ago just to understand their effects on my lipid profile), so I don't think I even heard any keto-vocab till a couple months ago.

Gotta admit, the idea appeals to me. The studies appeal to me, too. About as much as intermittent fasting.

I can't imagine it as a long-term lifestyle choice. And there are a few aspects of it that bug me. Maybe I'll get over them and try it someday.

1) We have a marvelously adaptive metabolic system. Fat? No problem. Protein? No problem. Carbs? No problem, unless you're in a world where they figured out how to convert sugar cane and corn into beverages and delicious treats. Why exclude any macro if we can metabolize them all?

Because our ability to metabolize carbohydrates and protein are actually rather limited. You can't live on protein alone, because doing so will ultimately harm the kidneys or kill you of malnutrition (see also: rabbit starvation). Glucose is actually a neurotoxin, which is why it's first priority for handling (contrary to popular belief, it's not because it's "preferred"). Glucose goes straight to the bloodstream, and if the body allows it to stay there (or becomes incapable of clearing it out in time) beyond our usual 60-100mg/dL concentration, it will start to damage the blood vessels and nerves (see also: diabetic neuropathy, epilepsy, migraines, RA, fibromyalgia...).

The ketogenic diet was not originally a weight loss diet. It just happens to work for losing weight because of its blood sugar lowering effect, which helps the large chunk of the population with metabolic disorder. It was originally inspired by the Inuit and other people who traditionally lived entirely off of animal products and did not suffer the diseases of civilization that are rampant in Western societies. It was originally used to reduce seizures in epileptic patients and was extensively studied for its positive effects (that study has since branched out to a number of disorders with a neurological component), and, to a lesser-known extent, as a treatment for Diabetes (both Type 1 and Type 2).

2) I tried eating the fat off of my steak. I was slightly repulsed. It was the lack of taste and the texture, I think. Learned response or something innate? I dunno.

Learned behavior. Odds are, you grew up with "low fat, fat is bad!" drilled into your head. As a result, you never really ate it, and the beef fat is currently too rich for you. Try the same with butter and you might stomach it better. Additionally, you'd probably have the same reaction with liver, even though it blows all the other "super foods" out of the water for general nutrient density.

3) The Keto Flu. Really? Why would anybody volunteer to have the flu?

Why would anyone volunteer to go into rehab?

It sounds extreme, but that's basically what keto flu is -- withdrawal.

When you follow the USDA guidelines and get 50% of your calories from carbohydrates -- especially when you get them from highly refined carbohydrates like breads and cereals, and especially when shunning fats -- your metabolic flexibility (your ability to seamlessly switch from burning sugar to burning fat) becomes impaired. When you suddenly cut off that old source of fuel (sugar), your body freaks out. At first, it's because it's suddenly not getting the source of fuel it's expecting (sugar), and then, because it's (re)building the "machinery" to use the one being provided to it (fat).

Or, to put it another way -- why does anyone volunteer to pull a band-aid or a tooth? Ultimately, because it's better for them in the long run, even if it hurts like hell for a moment, at the moment.

That said, if you're already LCHF, odds are, you won't get keto flu, or it won't be nearly what some of the horror stories tell of. That's because you wouldn't be reducing your carb intake as much as some of the people in the stories. Even if you're at 150g of carbs and going to 20g, that's still not the same magnitude of someone going from 350g to 50g, and so, not as much a shock to the system.

4) Constipation. 'Nuff said.

What about it? It happens sometimes, regardless of diet. In fact, I'd argue that it doesn't happen any more frequently on a properly-executed ketogenic diet than it does on any other diet.

But all the protein!

Keto isn't protein-heavy. It's adequate protein, so if you were getting adequate protein before going keto, then your protein levels won't change. Only your fat and carb intake changes.

But there's no fiber!

Two things:

1. Fiber isn't needed to prevent constipation when there's adequate fat in the diet. In fact, the way fiber "keeps things running" (especially insoluble fiber), is arguably detrimental to your GI tract, because it irritates the gut lining, causing it to excrete mucus to keep things moving. In a ketogenic diet, fat takes over that role, by providing lubrication throughout the body as a whole, including the GI tract.

2. The idea that keto is devoid of fiber is actually completely off-base (unless you're like @FIT_Goat‌, and only eat meat, which has actually been proven to be just fine for humans). I actually had about 10g of fiber today, and I tend to be on the "low vegetables" side of things. I bet someone on here who eats more vegetables can probably tell you they eat 20g+ with or fiber.

5) Sustainability. No, I don't mean the environmental impact (although it is scary to think of a world in which everybody went keto), but I just don't see myself able to sustain such a diet.

You never know until you try, though if you always tell yourself that you'll never be able to do it, it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy, anyway ("whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right").

That said, a lot of people think that way until they give it a solid try for 4-6 weeks. After that, they very often realize that they feel better without the carbs, and the "old foods" don't taste all that great anymore, or aren't worth the consequences (bloating, headache, fatigue; these things were always there, but are more pronounced now that they've been able to live free of these "part of getting older" or "bad genes" type of things). They also enjoy the fact that they can do things like put butter on their ribeye steak and not be "cheating." Or just eat the butter straight.

Whether you do it or not, though, is entirely up to you. Yeah, a lot of people on here are keto, but a lot of people aren't. There are even a couple of "slow carb" people on here. Do what works for you, both physically and mentally.

Slow carb here! If you get lonely, I'm here. I average 50 or so grams net (as best I can tell, given that I don't normally log).

FIT_Goat wrote: »

I almost got smacked by my wife. She won't eat low-carb, it's not for her. She was complaining about not losing weight and I told her to just come to the dark side. She said, "I can't imagine a life without sweets."

Me: "Yeah and lots of junkies can't imagine a life without heroin."

I am not a smart man sometimes. LOL

This made me snort!

IF she is interested in low carb, but not quite a diet like yours, there is a lot of sweets to be made like fat bombs and other sweets like cookies, muffins, pancakes, etc using almond flour instead of wheat flour.

I dont eat these everyday or even every month but once in awhile, a lemon chocolate chip almond flour cookie is good. The orange zest muffins are even better.

Ok now i want some, but my point was there are things you can make depending on your carb level and eating habits.

JPW1990 wrote: »

Had blueberries this morning, btw. Berries are the top of the list for fruits you can fit on keto.

I know! Cant wait till our blueberry bushes start producing this spring! Fresh blueberries straight off the plant, knock a little dirt off and omg heavenly! Especially since we use no pesticides on our berry patch.

wabmester wrote: »

I know about the potential toxicity of sugar (I'm pretty sure it was considered an almost-inert substance when I was in school), but we're adapted not only to metabolize it efficiently, but our taste buds make us crave the stuff. That's not how I'd design a robot to handle toxins.

Business Insider, of all places, has a pretty good explanation for why we have a sweet tooth, and why it's a problem now, when it didn't used to be -- http://www.businessinsider.com/evolutionary-reason-we-love-sugar-2014-4

Importantly, fructose appears to activate processes in your body that make you want to hold on to fat, explains Richard Johnson, a professor in the department of medicine at the University of Colorado and author of "The Sugar Fix." At a time when food was scarce and meals inconsistent — hunting is significantly less reliable than a drive-through — hanging on to fat was an advantage, not a health risk.
[...]
"For millions of years, our cravings and digestive systems were exquisitely balanced because sugar was rare," Lieberman wrote in an op-ed for The New York Times. "Apart from honey, most of the foods our hunter-gatherer ancestors ate were no sweeter than a carrot. The invention of farming made starchy foods more abundant, but it wasn’t until very recently that technology made pure sugar bountiful."

Weight gain was not a real risk when our instincts meant we might scarf down the nutritional equivalent of a carrot whenever we happened to stumble across one. Drinking soda all day — the contemporary equivalent — is a different story.

FIT_Goat wrote: »

I almost got smacked by my wife. She won't eat low-carb, it's not for her. She was complaining about not losing weight and I told her to just come to the dark side. She said, "I can't imagine a life without sweets."

Me: "Yeah and lots of junkies can't imagine a life without heroin."

I am not a smart man sometimes. LOL

You should make some of my chocolates for her. Check out the new chocolate covered strawberries recipe I just posted....

Dan the Man from Michigan

@wabmester it is totally your choice. I think most people here on these various LC diets enjoy the benefits. It appears most here are the live and let live kind of folks. Maybe because we do not have the large amounts of sugar coursing through our bodies like some on other boards. We will support you if you decide you want to give it a try. Like I said above I am sure for me Keto will be my go to WOE as soon as I lose more weight. I do not think it is a WOE I can lose much weight on because I am so insulin sensitive because of stupidity on my part. I do think I could easily sustain the weight loss on Keto. BTW I did do Atkins for 10 years back in my mid 20's. I foolishly drifted off but during that 10 years I was so thin and healthy never concerned with gaining weight. A huge uproar in my lifestyle started the back slide and I never picked it back up again until I was finally desperate to lose the weight I had gained starving myself on CICO.

Good luck i what you choose.

wabmester, almost all reports of electrolyte issues come during the adaptation phase (hence the "after two weeks of hard-core keto" part of the experience you quoted). During that phase, you should almost certainly supplement salt, potassium, and magnesium. As someone becomes adapted, their body is no longer losing excessive amounts of water weight, and it becomes better at regulating the needed electrolytes and stops shedding excessive amounts. At that point, you no longer need the supplements. It's more a matter of helping your body during the adjustment phase.

I haven't taken any supplements of any sort for almost a year, except maybe salting my food, and my recently tested blood levels of sodium and potassium are right in the normal ranges. You can't get any more ketogenic than my diet.

Anyway, my point isn't that supplementation is never necessary. It's just that it's probably not necessary for life. If someone was to stop supplementing and start experiencing signs of low potassium or magnesium (or have blood tests which signal low levels), then I would say they need to start supplementing again.

There is plenty of potassium, magnesium, and sodium (even without added salt) in the food we eat to maintain healthy serum levels once a person has fully adapted to the ketogenic diet. There's also little need to supplement anything else. If someone was concerned about phytonutrients or fiber, they should be able to easily reach their desired levels by including some leafy green veggies.

Edit: If my recent blood tests included a test of magnesium levels, I failed to notice it. Nothing on my test was out of the expected range. I just can't confirm they tested the Mg.