ZC / Meativores help, please!
KetoGirl83
Posts: 546 Member
So, I'm on my 27th day of ZC. For the first 3 weeks everything was going fine. Easiest woe ever. Never hungry, never tired, no cravings. Blood sugar at normal levels even in the morning. Weight finally dropping again after months of losing/gaining the same 3lbs. I was very happy with this experience and considering staying meativore in the foreseeable future.
Then it all went wrong. I started feeling light headed, dizzy most of the time, unable to focus, with cramps on my legs and muscle pain more or less all over. I've been sleeping like a log for 10 hours a night (usual is 7-8) and if I start watching TV I'll fall asleep too. I have been doing no efforts and there is no reason for me to be so tired all the time. I get the feeling that I could sleep for a week. And my fasting blood glucose started going up, not a lot but definitely in the wrong direction.
Not sure if it is related or just my mind trying to find a way out but I've started thinking of food again and it's only about what I can't eat on ZC: fruit, salads, dark chocolate (all cereals/flour items are slightly repulsive now). I have not slipped once since I started ZC (except for a few coffees with coconut oil) and, because this woe is so extreme, I've been very careful with logging all my foods.
Can anyone with ZC experience please check my diary and/or suggest what's going wrong and what I can do to correct it?
Thank you!
Then it all went wrong. I started feeling light headed, dizzy most of the time, unable to focus, with cramps on my legs and muscle pain more or less all over. I've been sleeping like a log for 10 hours a night (usual is 7-8) and if I start watching TV I'll fall asleep too. I have been doing no efforts and there is no reason for me to be so tired all the time. I get the feeling that I could sleep for a week. And my fasting blood glucose started going up, not a lot but definitely in the wrong direction.
Not sure if it is related or just my mind trying to find a way out but I've started thinking of food again and it's only about what I can't eat on ZC: fruit, salads, dark chocolate (all cereals/flour items are slightly repulsive now). I have not slipped once since I started ZC (except for a few coffees with coconut oil) and, because this woe is so extreme, I've been very careful with logging all my foods.
Can anyone with ZC experience please check my diary and/or suggest what's going wrong and what I can do to correct it?
Thank you!
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Replies
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Your diary isn't public, so I can't see it. Don't underestimate the need for sodium, potassium, and magnesium. I began to get leg cramps...as you describe, but has been better since supplementing with magnesium citrate capsules. I make sure to salt all of my food now too (something I've never done before this woe). Am sending you a friend request.
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@Karlottap thank you, I've accepted your FR.
I'll make the diary public again. I was under the impression that eating just from the animal kingdom we had no need for extra salt?
I take 3 supplements per day: 2xVital Omegas and 2xProbiotics for breakfast and Damage Control (comprehensive multi) for both lunch and dinner. I have been taking these for 6 months. Here's the composition:
Edit: not sure why the images are so huge, sorry!0 -
I'm sorry you are not feeling well right now KetoGirl ! I'm only under 3 weeks into my ZC journey, so far from being able to give advice, just hope you'll be feeling better soon. I generally feel great, have even energy levels all day, but have noticed that I am ready to sleep better at night, but not sure if the sleeping part is due to ZC.
I did sneak a few cherries and a bit of dark chocolate, but left it at that and have not had anything off plan other than that. I do supplement with magnesium and drink lots of water to help with the foot cramps, but have noticed that since I gave up avocado and spinach, my cramps have become worse on ZC, so I think I might be missing the potassium in those foods. I do salt all my food.0 -
@Kitnthecat I'm happy that everything is going well with you, I hope it keeps that way.
I've been using less salt in my food than before but eating far more jámon (Spanish ham) and that has a good amount of salt. Not sure what to do. I was so happy about ZC, I want to be patient and give my body what it needs to heal itself.0 -
Hi KetoGirl--I'm sorry you're not feeling well and I wish I had the answer for you. Your diary and supplements look good to me. I'm 4 days shy of a month on ZC. I've lost 1 lb---on a good day. I have allowed some carbs sometimes, <10 esp for avocado for the fat and potassium. It sounds like you're missing salt, potassium, magnesium or something like that. I use electrolyte tablets much daily or I start to feel woozy and tired, like I could just melt into the floor. Maybe you need additional salt? There are others who I'm sure will respond who are way more knowledgeable than I. Best of luck to you, and congrats on your weight loss!0
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Hello Ketogirl. After briefly looking at your diary; could it be your not getting enough fat vs your protein intake; therefore lack of energy?0
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More beef, less ham. More fat in general. More food in general (there are a few days in there where your log shows only about 800 calories or somesuch, make sure you're listening to your hunger).
Make sure the bulk of your meat is fresh or fresh-frozen, not cured or dried, otherwise you lose a fair bit of the nutrients you need.
Doubtful it's a potassium issue, as both pork and beef have a fair bit of potassium. Could be a magnesium thing, though. It's not uncommon to have issues with magnesium when first starting/adjusting to this way of eating.
I'm surprised that he uses magnesium oxide in the Damage Control formula, and not magnesium citrate. That's interesting.0 -
@wheatlessgirl66 @Juliste thank you.
@Dragonwolf thank you. I'll adjust the ham thing, it's such an easy snack and more palatable (to me) than bacon but I may return to hardboiled eggs as a snack. Lately I've been almost forcing myself to eat, I'm never hungry. Those days with the 800s calories could have been half of that if I had waited for hunger.
As for the magnesium, before starting ZC I would eat 2-3 squares of very dark (85%-99%) chocolate every day so maybe cutting that was a bad idea?
What kind of magnesium supplement would you advise? Citrate?0 -
It could be a lot of things. You're not eating very much, that's going to impact things. Are you really eating as much as you want each day? You could add some fattier meats and cuts.
I don't think you'll need to add any electrolyte supplements for the cramps. I would cut out the probiotics. It's wasted money since most of those bacteria feed on starch, fiber, or sugars. You don't have any of those in your gut. The poor bacteria are being sent to die by starvation.
The fasting blood sugar is something I hear more about from the keto crowd. https://www.paleohacks.com/ketogenic/the-high-blood-glucose-dilemma-on-low-carb-lc-diets-14400
I personally don't experience that. My fasting blood glucose averages in the mid 80s. But, it's not unheard of.
In the end, eat more and wait it out.0 -
Scotch eggs are awesome cold. Hard boiled egg wrapped in sausage, with or without a parmesan breading - baked, then eaten hot or cold. Some I dip in mustard, others eaten as is...I think this is going to be weekly, because even my guy loves them as a go to balanced snack/meal.0
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@FIT_Goat thank you, very interesting article and it also links to other great resources. This was happening to me before ZC, I couldn't get FBG to lower. That ZC seemed to be correcting that was one of the reasons I was so happy with it. But then I'm diabetic and that always complicates everything.
The probiotics are my (so far failed) attempt to keep things moving regularly. The capsules have a bit of potato starch, I was hoping that would be enough. But you're probably right, I'll keep them for when I add some veggies.
I'll try to eat more and give ZC a few more days/weeks to see if this is just a hiccup in the way.
@KnitOrMiss sounds good, I'll try that without the breading. Thank you.0 -
KetoGirl83 wrote: »@FIT_Goat thank you, very interesting article and it also links to other great resources. This was happening to me before ZC, I couldn't get FBG to lower. That ZC seemed to be correcting that was one of the reasons I was so happy with it. But then I'm diabetic and that always complicates everything.
The probiotics are my (so far failed) attempt to keep things moving regularly. The capsules have a bit of potato starch, I was hoping that would be enough. But you're probably right, I'll keep them for when I add some veggies.
I'll try to eat more and give ZC a few more days/weeks to see if this is just a hiccup in the way.
@KnitOrMiss sounds good, I'll try that without the breading. Thank you.
Quality of sausage matters hugely, too. I got normal tube sausage, and they were almost flavorless and lost a ton of fat in cooking. I bought my butcher's blend of sausage and they were AMAZING (I did the breading on these - the first ones were wrapped in bacon - and not as much a fan of that. Will make some with just the sausage), almost too salted with the breading and lost almost no fat in the cooking. I used smaller eggs, too - and they were still more satisfying for less of them (due to the sausage, mainly, I think).0 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »
Quality of sausage matters hugely, too. I got normal tube sausage, and they were almost flavorless and lost a ton of fat in cooking. I bought my butcher's blend of sausage and they were AMAZING (I did the breading on these - the first ones were wrapped in bacon - and not as much a fan of that. Will make some with just the sausage), almost too salted with the breading and lost almost no fat in the cooking. I used smaller eggs, too - and they were still more satisfying for less of them (due to the sausage, mainly, I think).
@KnitOrMiss tube sausage is the normal cylindrical sausage encaged in (urgh!) intestines? Or just the sausage meat, like ground meat for burgers? I can ask the butcher for their "blend of sausage" and he will know what I mean? Will it usually have just meat or seasonings, do you know? Sorry for all the questions, never had sausage (except for soy and didn't like it).0 -
By tube sausage, I meant sausage encased in a tube of plastic for packaging. Usually made in a factory or something.
If you ask your butcher for "bulk sausage," it will come in a package like most ground beef or ground meats on a tray, etc. So ask for bulk sausage. The other kind in intestines and such here is called "links." If they have options of bulk sausage, consider the spices. The one they made here has a reddish tinge to the meat (pork is normally fairly pale colored) from the spice blend - and had some heat to it. It had noticeable fat pieces in it (like it wasn't pureed and smooth, but more like a rough mince). I avoid "maple" flavored sausage and I'm not a big fan of sage, either. But I love "normal" blends, "Italian sausage" - but this is more for dinner type meals, I would expect, and spicy sausages (new to me!). So experiment.
And ask the butcher to talk with you. Tell him you didn't like the kind you had before. Tell him the types of spices you like, and ask him for a suggestion. Sometimes they will have more than one flavor!
My grandfather ran a meat department while I was growing up. You can actually buy your own pork and grind it or buy your own ground pork and mix in spices you like too. I remember mixing 20 pound batches of sausage at a time... I need to ask my dad if I can get that recipe, because it was the best sausage in the universe!0 -
I got so excited thinking about my Grandpa's sausage that I forgot to send you the links to recipes!
http://www.ibreatheimhungry.com/2012/04/scotch-eggs-2.html
I just regular hard boiled my eggs - because my fiance doesn't like runny yolks at all...and I used a teensy bit of panko because I didn't have almond flour. I didn't bother with the egg wash, so they didn't get super crunchy, but were SO GOOD.
http://cavemanketo.com/scotch-eggs/
These are the bacon ones, but I didn't like them as much, but I think that is more due to the type of sausage I used!
Use farm fresh or good quality eggs for best results!!0 -
KetoGirl83 wrote: »@KnitOrMiss tube sausage is the normal cylindrical sausage encaged in (urgh!) intestines? Or just the sausage meat, like ground meat for burgers? I can ask the butcher for their "blend of sausage" and he will know what I mean? Will it usually have just meat or seasonings, do you know? Sorry for all the questions, never had sausage (except for soy and didn't like it).
Tube sausage, like Jimmy Dean. The ground stuff in the tube. http://www.jimmydean.com/Products/Fresh-Sausage/Premium-Pork-Regular-Sausage
Ask the butcher for breakfast sausage like you'd use for patties or fry for breakfast burritos, not links. It'll have seasonings (you might ask to make sure they don't use fillers like grains).0 -
Hey KetoGirl,
Sorry to hear things aren't going so well. Would it help to know I experienced the same thing? Well except for the fasting glucose thing. I don't check mine. But I had all the other observable symptoms.
I'm on roughly day 44 of zero carb.
I totally know that fatigue. It's not a normal tired, sleepy feeling is it? And it's really hard to wake up again especially if you let yourself have a nap.
The three things I did that I feel contributed to changing it somewhat:
Magnesium Citrate
MORE WATER
And... good ol mother nature.
Do you get your period? When did you have it last? Mine was a doozy during the first month of zero carb.
To be honest, I'll be watching your thread because I haven't fully recovered and it's almost time for the next one. The fatigue isn't as bad, but I don't have the energy I used to. I even stopped running & swimming and I was doing so well! I have been horrible about getting my magnesium every day so that might be it. The last two days I had horrible calf cramps and I NEVER get leg cramps. When I was swimming last week I got cramps in my feet each day. So that tells me my problem is likely mag, I guess. And I upped my salt a bit more.
Also if you're having bathroom problems, upping the fat could likely help that. Seems you should be getting more anyway, and that's one of the benefits. Animal fat, not coconut oil or butter. I don't know why it's different but it is. It definitely makes a difference in the plumbing department.
I sure hope you start to feel better soon. Although I'm with FIT-goat on this one. Try and wait it out. So far it's been working. Try tweaking things and see how you feel.
Good luck!
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@KnitOrMiss thank you. Actually I've never visited a butcher, the sight and smell freaks me out and brings to the surface all my issues with eating meat. Even in a supermarket I give that area a wide berth. My husband kindly does all the meat shopping and has become friends with a local butcher. I'll ask him to see about the different types and perhaps buy a small sample of each.0
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I have zero input on your actual problems, but as far as sausage goes, bulk chorizo is also delicious with eggs. I get mine from Sprouts, but I don't know what the actual ingredients are. I'm assuming just pork and spices. It is a nice spicy Mexican flavor, completely different than breakfast sausage or Italian sausage. You could make Mexican Scotch eggs 0
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@Twibbly thank you, you have posted while I was replying to KnitOrMiss.
@KnitOrMiss I was going to try something from your description but it's much better to have the recipe!0 -
Chaskavitch wrote: »I have zero input on your actual problems, but as far as sausage goes, bulk chorizo is also delicious with eggs. I get mine from Sprouts, but I don't know what the actual ingredients are. I'm assuming just pork and spices. It is a nice spicy Mexican flavor, completely different than breakfast sausage or Italian sausage. You could make Mexican Scotch eggs
nice:)0 -
@gsp90x thank you! It helps immensely to know that others feel/felt the same way! Deep down I hope that it is my body requiring more energy to heal whatever it needs to heal.
Because this isn't normal tired and normal deep sleep. If anything this is like when a young child spends the whole day running around and then suddenly falls asleep and nothing will awake him. A few days ago my husband had to leave a bit earlier than usual in the morning. I had been asleep for 9 hours, I half noticed he was going out but try as I may I just couldn't stay awake enough time to speak to him, I just couldn't keep my eyes open. I still needed two more hours sleep.
Since I'm diabetic I usually get up a few times during the night to pee. It used to be that sometimes I then had difficulty falling asleep again. Not anymore. Just like a child, I go to the bathroom if I need to but I'm never fully awake and I'm asleep again as soon as I get into the bed. This is not necessarily bad but I'm getting a lot more sleep than it is normal for an adult.
I'll try upping the calories a bit, perhaps eating fattier cuts of meat. If it doesn't work I'll try the mag. How much do you take?0 -
Chaskavitch wrote: »(...)You could make Mexican Scotch eggs
LOL, you may have created a new classic!
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The chorizo I know wouldn't hold it's shape well enough for this application, but it is an interesting concept. I've never been able to enjoy it because of the high fat content. Might have to see if that has changed.
@KetoGirl83 - you could easily do this with chicken or turkey sausage, or even ground beef, though you would have to season it really well...0 -
@Dragonwolf @KnitOrMiss you both take magnesium citrate? How much and how often? And, do you have a brand you recommend?0
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KetoGirl83 wrote: »@Dragonwolf @KnitOrMiss you both take magnesium citrate? How much and how often? And, do you have a brand you recommend?
I do take Citrate. It is a lower dose intentionally, as I had bad experiences with 500 mg of Oxide...
That being said, I've heard Slow-Mag suggested a lot, but it has Magnesium Acetate or something - not a form I'd heard good or bad about.
I take this:
https://www.thorne.com/products/dp/magnesium-citrate
It is chelated for easier absorption, and it is 135 mg. I take it once at night. However, I do not think this is sufficient for my magnesium needs, as I was having muscle twitches and such still, but I've also learned that starting magnesium can trigger potassium dumping, and I had stopped supplementing it before that. I added a second pill a few times, but couldn't figure out a good blend. I'm currently exploring options for another stronger choice (this was $13 at my local pharmacy - higher strength was $35 or something - and SloMag is only like $15, but I wasn't sure how well it would work...)0 -
Thank you @KnitOrMiss
Anyone has any idea how bad it would be if I started "supplementing" very dark chocolate? I have a 99% that has something like 3 or 4 carbs for 50g so 1 or 2 for the amount I eat.
Because apparently that was working well before ZC and cocoa is much nicer than adding another supplement, especially if then I'll also need potassium... that's one of the reasons I take the Damage Control supplement, I was hoping it had everything in a fairly balanced formula because I'm a bit afraid of experimenting by myself.
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It's your body and your plan. Give it a shot and see how it works for you. I wouldn't think it would make a massive difference (and you might try periods of including it and excluding it, later on, to see if it does). But, in the end, when you're at the ZC end of the spectrum, you're already forging your own path. Don't be afraid to make it your own.0
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Well... there's only one way to find out really. And if you were using it before with good results, why not try it and see how it goes. Just try to change one thing at a time though so you know what does or doesn't work.0
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@FIT_Goat thank you, it's good to have the feedback from someone experienced in this woe. ZC was working so well that I would really like to fix whatever went wrong in the last few days. And I feel about dark chocolate the way most people here feel about bacon, lol.
Right now I feel I can really choose what to eat according to what is good for me, I've already given up almost everything that I really enjoyed and have not created any significant attachments to new foods. Food is mostly fuel and medicine now.
I have some hope that in a year or two, when I achieve a normal size and have my diabetes controlled, I may widen my food choices but for now it is as it has to be and that's all there is to it. But if my plan could include chocolate that would be awesome! I'll give it a try starting tomorrow! 0
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