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Keto flu again?

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ndvoice
ndvoice Posts: 161 Member
in Social Groups
Started low carb eating 3 weeks ago. For the first couple days I had a vicious headache & was tired. Since then, my energy has been great - until today. Today I'm achy & tired & it feels like it did in the beginning. Most days my carbs are in the 50-80 range. On a couple days I hit 100.
Any idea if this fluctuation can cause the flu symptoms again? Trying to figure out if today's crappiness is diet related, or something else. Any suggestions? Thanks!
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  • CommandaPanda
    CommandaPanda Posts: 451 Member
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    This may seem like a dumb question, but have you been drinking enough water?

    Also, take a look at this link - it offers up some great information: https://reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq#wiki_what_is_.201Cketo_flu.201D_and_how_long_will_i_have_it.3F
  • Sunny_Bunny_
    Sunny_Bunny_ Posts: 7,140 Member
    edited October 2015
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    Salt. Lots and lots of salt.
    How much sodium do you get daily?
    Also, you're sort of on the fringes of Keto with the varying carb amounts which could be contributing to the back and forth feelings.
    It's best to figure out a narrower carb range and stick to it consistently. Then you won't be dancing on the edges...
  • deksgrl
    deksgrl Posts: 7,237 Member
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    Drink some broth, eat a couple of pickles, see if that helps.
  • batlott
    batlott Posts: 61 Member
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    Get more salt.
  • ndvoice
    ndvoice Posts: 161 Member
    edited October 2015
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    Not a dumb question! I know several people who say they don't "like" water. But I drink constantly. Love my water! I am not taking in salt though. My trainer / nutritionist has me totally avoiding salt, unless it naturally occurs. Since I'm eating no processed foods, that would be very little salt. Could this be the culprit? I don't understand the salt connection.
    CommandaPanda wrote: »
    This may seem like a dumb question, but have you been drinking enough water?

    Also, take a look at this link - it offers up some great information: https://reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq#wiki_what_is_.201Cketo_flu.201D_and_how_long_will_i_have_it.3F

  • ndvoice
    ndvoice Posts: 161 Member
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    My sodium averages 1200 a day.

    Hmm, see I wasn't specifically doing Keto. I'm cutting out "white" foods & processed foods. But it's landing me in Keto most days, now that I know what Keto is lol. I get what you mean about picking a range. Thanks for the feedback!
    Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
    Salt. Lots and lots of salt.
    How much sodium do you get daily?
    Also, you're sort of on the fringes of Keto with the varying carb amounts which could be contributing to the back and forth feelings.
    It's best to figure out a narrower carb range and stick to it consistently. Then you won't be dancing on the edges...

  • wabmester
    wabmester Posts: 2,748 Member
    edited October 2015
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    ndvoice wrote: »
    ... very little salt. Could this be the culprit? I don't understand the salt connection.

    Absolutely! Most people don't understand the connection, and they are condemned to suffer through the "flu."

    Low-carb causes the kidneys to dump sodium. It's partly hormonal (hormones regulate sodium retention), but mostly due to ketones lost in the urine. Ketones = negative ions. Sodium = positive ions. They go together like PB and J. Except in the urine. :)

    The recommendation is 5000 mg/d. Don't tell your trainer.
  • ndvoice
    ndvoice Posts: 161 Member
    edited October 2015
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    Lol I won't tell her! A person with degrees in exercise and nutrition should know this info though. Very surprising! I'm going to shove some olives in my face now
  • KnitOrMiss
    KnitOrMiss Posts: 10,104 Member
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    Additionally, as the body progresses in fat adapting, you can have the "flu" effects again as your body "adapts" another notch.

    Generally Days 2-7, Day 14, Day 21, Day 28, Day 42, Day 56, Day 84, etc. Basically every few weeks it's possible to notch to another level of adaption, dumping more water, and more sodium to match... There are some charts explaining this, but it's been almost a year since I researched it, so I'm sorry to say I don't recall where it was...
  • ndvoice
    ndvoice Posts: 161 Member
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    Thank you - that is helpful to know! So when these crappy days come, I will increase sodium a bit each time. Sounds like a plan!
    KnitOrMiss wrote: »
    Additionally, as the body progresses in fat adapting, you can have the "flu" effects again as your body "adapts" another notch.

    Generally Days 2-7, Day 14, Day 21, Day 28, Day 42, Day 56, Day 84, etc. Basically every few weeks it's possible to notch to another level of adaption, dumping more water, and more sodium to match... There are some charts explaining this, but it's been almost a year since I researched it, so I'm sorry to say I don't recall where it was...

  • KnitOrMiss
    KnitOrMiss Posts: 10,104 Member
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    And remember, your body will not stick to a schedule, so anytime you get tired, rundown, and feel crappy - sodium up first! LOL Everyone adapts at different rates.
  • CommandaPanda
    CommandaPanda Posts: 451 Member
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    A few years ago I read Lyle McDonald's "The Ketogenic Diet" and used to feel like I had all the answers. Now I just use it as my "Keto Thesaurus".

    Here's a couple of snippets I found for you from Lyle McDonald:
    "At the very least, individuals on a ketogenic diet should take some form of sugar free vitamin and mineral supplement to ensure nutritional adequacy. Additionally, supplemental sodium, magnesium and potassium may be necessary, as detailed in chapter 7."

    (From Chapter 7)
    "Providing 4-5 grams of sodium per day (not much higher than the average American diet) prevents the majority of symptoms of weakness and low energy, possibly by maintaining normal blood pressure."

    I do supplement with a multivitamin each morning and evening, I'm thinking that my keto flu isn't as severe as a result of this? I also don't track sodium intake so I'm sure I go over the top each day.
  • wabmester
    wabmester Posts: 2,748 Member
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    CommandaPanda wrote: »
    (From Chapter 7)
    "Providing 4-5 grams of sodium per day (not much higher than the average American diet) prevents the majority of symptoms of weakness and low energy, possibly by maintaining normal blood pressure."

    Good book! I think it's more a matter of maintaining blood volume than blood pressure. The body can maintain normal blood pressure with reduced volume via vasoconstriction, but it then has trouble adapting to changing blood pressure requirements, like standing up, exercising, etc.

    So, yeah, low carb causes ketones. Ketones cause sodium loss. Sodium loss causes reduced blood volume. Reduced blood volume can lead to headaches, light-headedness, fatigue, etc. I.e., the keto flu.
  • ndvoice
    ndvoice Posts: 161 Member
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    Thanks for the info! I do take a multi. I think it's really the lack of salt that's getting me. Most people are saying 3000 to 5000 and I'm getting 1200. That's a big difference! Looking forward to a better tomorrow!
    CommandaPanda wrote: »
    A few years ago I read Lyle McDonald's "The Ketogenic Diet" and used to feel like I had all the answers. Now I just use it as my "Keto Thesaurus".

    Here's a couple of snippets I found for you from Lyle McDonald:
    "At the very least, individuals on a ketogenic diet should take some form of sugar free vitamin and mineral supplement to ensure nutritional adequacy. Additionally, supplemental sodium, magnesium and potassium may be necessary, as detailed in chapter 7."

    (From Chapter 7)
    "Providing 4-5 grams of sodium per day (not much higher than the average American diet) prevents the majority of symptoms of weakness and low energy, possibly by maintaining normal blood pressure."

    I do supplement with a multivitamin each morning and evening, I'm thinking that my keto flu isn't as severe as a result of this? I also don't track sodium intake so I'm sure I go over the top each day.

  • ndvoice
    ndvoice Posts: 161 Member
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    Thank you for an explanation that I can understand
  • ndvoice
    ndvoice Posts: 161 Member
    edited October 2015
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    wabmester wrote: »
    CommandaPanda wrote: »
    (From Chapter 7)
    "Providing 4-5 grams of sodium per day (not much higher than the average American diet) prevents the majority of symptoms of weakness and low energy, possibly by maintaining normal blood pressure."

    Good book! I think it's more a matter of maintaining blood volume than blood pressure. The body can maintain normal blood pressure with reduced volume via vasoconstriction, but it then has trouble adapting to changing blood pressure requirements, like standing up, exercising, etc.

    So, yeah, low carb causes ketones. Ketones cause sodium loss. Sodium loss causes reduced blood volume. Reduced blood volume can lead to headaches, light-headedness, fatigue, etc. I.e., the keto flu.

    Thank you for an explanation that I can understand!
  • KarlaYP
    KarlaYP Posts: 4,439 Member
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    I got some salt tablets from Amazon and have had the energy burst again, like in the beginning. Sometimes I don't want to eat but need it. The tablets are working well! :smile:
  • ndvoice
    ndvoice Posts: 161 Member
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    Karlottap wrote: »
    I got some salt tablets from Amazon and have had the energy burst again, like in the beginning. Sometimes I don't want to eat but need it. The tablets are working well! :smile:

    Might have to try those! When your feeling yucky & then take salt, how long till you start to feel better?

  • fireball1970
    fireball1970 Posts: 38 Member
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    I also recommend Smart water. It's water with electrolytes added. It's helped me a lot with the headaches. I drink it daily to help prevent them.
  • ladipoet
    ladipoet Posts: 4,180 Member
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    ndvoice wrote: »
    My sodium averages 1200 a day.

    This is definitely not anywhere near enough salt on a daily basis! Like so many others here have already suggested, I strongly encourage you to double or preferably triple this amount! Your body will thank you.

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