Extreme Weight Loss Drops Metabolism - Long Term?
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Effects of Dietary Composition on Energy Expenditure During Weight-Loss Maintenance
Among overweight and obese young adults compared with pre–weight-loss energy expenditure, isocaloric feeding following 10% to 15% weight loss resulted in decreases in REE and TEE that were greatest with the low-fat diet, intermediate with the low–glycemic index diet, and least with the very low-carbohydrate diet.
Must be why I'm having no problems in maintenance.
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Effects of Dietary Composition on Energy Expenditure During Weight-Loss Maintenance
Among overweight and obese young adults compared with pre–weight-loss energy expenditure, isocaloric feeding following 10% to 15% weight loss resulted in decreases in REE and TEE that were greatest with the low-fat diet, intermediate with the low–glycemic index diet, and least with the very low-carbohydrate diet.
Must be why I'm having no problems in maintenance.
Thanks for giving us a bit of hope @wabmester !1 -
New follow-up post by Dr. Fung just posted: "The Biggest Loser Diet - Explained!" https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/biggest-loser-diet-explained/1
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sucha great thread, thanks guys, inspires me to be thoughtful in what I am doing0
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I haven't read this article but the idea that I've lost muscle as well as fat is something that I find quite upsetting. I've been losing and gaining weight my whole life. No one ever told me that I might also be losing muscle. I've never been an athletic person so I'm sure I don't have any extra muscle to lose.
I might just be paranoid but I now find myself feeling weaker. Particularly in my upper body. Not sure what to do I always eat a lot of protein and have throughout the last six months. Should I be worried?0 -
Really interesting. @wheatlessgirl66 that article you shared I found particularly useful. Thxs.0
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its all a bit of an eye opener. but i'd rather be aware of it and research it than lose the weight and gain it back again (to add to my yoyo 20st plus gained and lost ). lots to think about,0
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I honestly don't think any of us should be worried. We aren't eating and exercising like the contestants did and we know that Keto and lower carb is muscle sparing.
And what's the alternative anyway? Not trying to lose any weight?
The takaway here is the same as we've always said on this board, don't eat too low calories... It's not about calories or short term scale weight loss, get enough protein for your specific needs and don't exercise yourself to death because that's not going to get you anywhere any faster.
We see it all the time "what am I doing wrong?" "I should eat less calories and exercise more because I've 'stalled' Well maybe, but that's not usually the problem. Usually the problem is our expectations because of shows like this.
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daylitemag wrote: »I haven't read this article but the idea that I've lost muscle as well as fat is something that I find quite upsetting. I've been losing and gaining weight my whole life. No one ever told me that I might also be losing muscle. I've never been an athletic person so I'm sure I don't have any extra muscle to lose.
I might just be paranoid but I now find myself feeling weaker. Particularly in my upper body. Not sure what to do I always eat a lot of protein and have throughout the last six months. Should I be worried?
From what I understand (in a very simplistic way so it makes sense to me ), when you lose weight your body has a choice of whether to burn fat or muscle. Muscle uses more calories than fat on an hourly basis, so if food is in short supply for very long it makes more sense to your body to burn the muscle off to conserve energy. This is why VLCD is a bad idea especially long term (and why WLS patients seem to lose more muscle than average people who lose weight slower or with less of a deficit). It makes more sense to dump the expensive calorie hog than the relatively maintenance free fat reserves for survival purposes.
But if you have a smaller deficit, enough protein *and* your muscles are being used regularly, it makes more sense for your body to burn the fat instead. It still gets rid of something that burns calories, so helping your body balance its energy equation, but it tends to keep what is being used.
So the lesson from my overly simplistic childlike explanation is to keep a smaller deficit (lose weight a little slower), eat enough protein to support your muscle needs, and use the muscles you plan to keep! It doesnt take being a weight lifter - body weight exercises go a long way. The trick is that they need to be progressive - your muscles will become more effecient over time if you dont challenge them, and they will use fewer calories to do the same thing. So if you are only doing body weight exercises, find ways to make it harder when it gets easy for you (i.e. for pushups - once you can do regular ones more than 10 or 20 at a time easily, put your feet up on a small box so you have a downward incline, or use the TRX type straps to add instability, etc).
Use it or lose it 2 -
i'm learning alot from this thread and find it invaluable. i'm starting to think what nutrition does 'my' body need short and long term, not ooh yummy food. still love to cook though! the thought of the quick weight loss is now horrifying, i didn't realise my long term bmr would be changed (hadn't got that far, just getting used to changes in diet). i was aware of leptin reduction but not the implications. thanks for sharing i'm very grateful.0
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daylitemag wrote: »I haven't read this article but the idea that I've lost muscle as well as fat is something that I find quite upsetting. I've been losing and gaining weight my whole life. No one ever told me that I might also be losing muscle. I've never been an athletic person so I'm sure I don't have any extra muscle to lose.
I might just be paranoid but I now find myself feeling weaker. Particularly in my upper body. Not sure what to do I always eat a lot of protein and have throughout the last six months. Should I be worried?
From what I understand (in a very simplistic way so it makes sense to me ), when you lose weight your body has a choice of whether to burn fat or muscle. Muscle uses more calories than fat on an hourly basis, so if food is in short supply for very long it makes more sense to your body to burn the muscle off to conserve energy. This is why VLCD is a bad idea especially long term (and why WLS patients seem to lose more muscle than average people who lose weight slower or with less of a deficit). It makes more sense to dump the expensive calorie hog than the relatively maintenance free fat reserves for survival purposes.
But if you have a smaller deficit, enough protein *and* your muscles are being used regularly, it makes more sense for your body to burn the fat instead. It still gets rid of something that burns calories, so helping your body balance its energy equation, but it tends to keep what is being used.
So the lesson from my overly simplistic childlike explanation is to keep a smaller deficit (lose weight a little slower), eat enough protein to support your muscle needs, and use the muscles you plan to keep! It doesnt take being a weight lifter - body weight exercises go a long way. The trick is that they need to be progressive - your muscles will become more effecient over time if you dont challenge them, and they will use fewer calories to do the same thing. So if you are only doing body weight exercises, find ways to make it harder when it gets easy for you (i.e. for pushups - once you can do regular ones more than 10 or 20 at a time easily, put your feet up on a small box so you have a downward incline, or use the TRX type straps to add instability, etc).
Use it or lose it
Thank you. I'm doomed. I don't really do any exercise. I recently started doing more walking but that may not last (never has in the past). Over the years I've tried going to the gym, but I hate it and never manage to continue for more than a few months.0 -
daylitemag wrote: »daylitemag wrote: »I haven't read this article but the idea that I've lost muscle as well as fat is something that I find quite upsetting. I've been losing and gaining weight my whole life. No one ever told me that I might also be losing muscle. I've never been an athletic person so I'm sure I don't have any extra muscle to lose.
I might just be paranoid but I now find myself feeling weaker. Particularly in my upper body. Not sure what to do I always eat a lot of protein and have throughout the last six months. Should I be worried?
From what I understand (in a very simplistic way so it makes sense to me ), when you lose weight your body has a choice of whether to burn fat or muscle. Muscle uses more calories than fat on an hourly basis, so if food is in short supply for very long it makes more sense to your body to burn the muscle off to conserve energy. This is why VLCD is a bad idea especially long term (and why WLS patients seem to lose more muscle than average people who lose weight slower or with less of a deficit). It makes more sense to dump the expensive calorie hog than the relatively maintenance free fat reserves for survival purposes.
But if you have a smaller deficit, enough protein *and* your muscles are being used regularly, it makes more sense for your body to burn the fat instead. It still gets rid of something that burns calories, so helping your body balance its energy equation, but it tends to keep what is being used.
So the lesson from my overly simplistic childlike explanation is to keep a smaller deficit (lose weight a little slower), eat enough protein to support your muscle needs, and use the muscles you plan to keep! It doesnt take being a weight lifter - body weight exercises go a long way. The trick is that they need to be progressive - your muscles will become more effecient over time if you dont challenge them, and they will use fewer calories to do the same thing. So if you are only doing body weight exercises, find ways to make it harder when it gets easy for you (i.e. for pushups - once you can do regular ones more than 10 or 20 at a time easily, put your feet up on a small box so you have a downward incline, or use the TRX type straps to add instability, etc).
Use it or lose it
Thank you. I'm doomed. I don't really do any exercise. I recently started doing more walking but that may not last (never has in the past). Over the years I've tried going to the gym, but I hate it and never manage to continue for more than a few months.
Lol - well my point is that you dont have to go to the gym. Look up Mark's Daily Apple Primal blueprint exercises. He basically says there are four exercises that cover every major muscle - pushups, pullups, squats and planks. He has a progression for each, starting from the extreme beginning. So for example - pushups - stand one foot from a wall with your hands on the wall and do baby pushups. When that seems easy, move your feet back to two feet from the wall and do again. If you do the very minimal of each of the four it will take about 15 minutes a day to start with.And you can split that up. Just do it til something is very easy for you, then try to make it slightly harder for another few weeks etc. I started out doing one of the four each time I went to the bathroom at work, so only 2-3 minutes each time. You can do them while watching a 30 minute sitcom on tv.4 -
daylitemag wrote: »daylitemag wrote: »I haven't read this article but the idea that I've lost muscle as well as fat is something that I find quite upsetting. I've been losing and gaining weight my whole life. No one ever told me that I might also be losing muscle. I've never been an athletic person so I'm sure I don't have any extra muscle to lose.
I might just be paranoid but I now find myself feeling weaker. Particularly in my upper body. Not sure what to do I always eat a lot of protein and have throughout the last six months. Should I be worried?
From what I understand (in a very simplistic way so it makes sense to me ), when you lose weight your body has a choice of whether to burn fat or muscle. Muscle uses more calories than fat on an hourly basis, so if food is in short supply for very long it makes more sense to your body to burn the muscle off to conserve energy. This is why VLCD is a bad idea especially long term (and why WLS patients seem to lose more muscle than average people who lose weight slower or with less of a deficit). It makes more sense to dump the expensive calorie hog than the relatively maintenance free fat reserves for survival purposes.
But if you have a smaller deficit, enough protein *and* your muscles are being used regularly, it makes more sense for your body to burn the fat instead. It still gets rid of something that burns calories, so helping your body balance its energy equation, but it tends to keep what is being used.
So the lesson from my overly simplistic childlike explanation is to keep a smaller deficit (lose weight a little slower), eat enough protein to support your muscle needs, and use the muscles you plan to keep! It doesnt take being a weight lifter - body weight exercises go a long way. The trick is that they need to be progressive - your muscles will become more effecient over time if you dont challenge them, and they will use fewer calories to do the same thing. So if you are only doing body weight exercises, find ways to make it harder when it gets easy for you (i.e. for pushups - once you can do regular ones more than 10 or 20 at a time easily, put your feet up on a small box so you have a downward incline, or use the TRX type straps to add instability, etc).
Use it or lose it
Thank you. I'm doomed. I don't really do any exercise. I recently started doing more walking but that may not last (never has in the past). Over the years I've tried going to the gym, but I hate it and never manage to continue for more than a few months.
Lol - well my point is that you dont have to go to the gym. Look up Mark's Daily Apple Primal blueprint exercises. He basically says there are four exercises that cover every major muscle - pushups, pullups, squats and planks. He has a progression for each, starting from the extreme beginning. So for example - pushups - stand one foot from a wall with your hands on the wall and do baby pushups. When that seems easy, move your feet back to two feet from the wall and do again. If you do the very minimal of each of the four it will take about 15 minutes a day to start with.And you can split that up. Just do it til something is very easy for you, then try to make it slightly harder for another few weeks etc. I started out doing one of the four each time I went to the bathroom at work, so only 2-3 minutes each time. You can do them while watching a 30 minute sitcom on tv.
THIS^^
I hate gyms. Can't afford them and have no childcare even if I could. I do only bodyweight work. It takes me 30 min max. Mark Sisson's exercise plan is perfect for a start. I'd add in alternating lunges though. But you can wait on that if it's too much to begin with. There are bodyweight progression charts online for free once you are ready to make your exercise have more resistance. I bought the book You Are Your Own Gym as I'm intermediate and about to move to advanced. I wanted a "program." But you can get info online to do it for free. NerdFitness has a good beginner workout too. That and the Angry Bird's program at NerdFitness was fun for awhile.1 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I honestly don't think any of us should be worried. We aren't eating and exercising like the contestants did and we know that Keto and lower carb is muscle sparing.
And what's the alternative anyway? Not trying to lose any weight?
The takaway here is the same as we've always said on this board, don't eat too low calories... It's not about calories or short term scale weight loss, get enough protein for your specific needs and don't exercise yourself to death because that's not going to get you anywhere any faster.
We see it all the time "what am I doing wrong?" "I should eat less calories and exercise more because I've 'stalled' Well maybe, but that's not usually the problem. Usually the problem is our expectations because of shows like this.
I agree although, this discussion is, in my opinion, much too focused on BL contestants when the reality is most people don't keep the weight off. Nobody really knows what works best in the long term. I have high hopes that lower carb/IF will be beneficial.
The point about too much focus on the scale is spot on. People should be focused on health and well being. Weight or even body fat percentage shouldn't be the only focus. You can be happy and healthy yet still be "overweight".
Also, everyone's goals will differ. For those that are morbidly obese, weight loss is a major health and lifestyle issue. For those in the "overweight" category...maybe being simply somewhat active and fit is a great goal. Simply being overweight is not a health risk. Others will be really focused on low BF percentage (body builders for example) which take a ton of dedication and is fine for those who want that.1 -
Keepin' it in perspective:
http://www.refusetoregain.com/2016/05/news-flash-people-who-lose-weight-gain-it-back.html1 -
I have some experience with losing and gaining weight back.
In 2006 I lost 60 pounds going from 205 to 145 in about 8 months by simply eating less and going to the gym using machines and cardio for about an hour and a half 3 days a week. It's the only time I've ever been consistent with exercise in my life! Ha!
I'm sure I lost lots of muscle because I wasn't concerned so much what I was eating. I just knew that if I was hungry a decent portion of the day that I was doing it "right"
I never thought twice about protein or the proper way to do it. I honestly thought what I was doing was exactly right, especially since it worked! At least until I got to 145. Then I couldn't get any further. The smallest size I got to was an 8 in some brands. Not all. Mostly I was a size 10.
Anyway, I kept it off for a few years even though I stopped exercising right after I stopped making weight loss progress.
On the 6 year scale, I did not maintain the weight and I probably topped out at about 170lbs at the height of regain.
NOTICE THERE ARE 2 PHOTOS FOR 2009...
Also notice that they are September and October... The explanation... Halloween Candy!
I binged on candy a couple weeks and probably put on 20 pounds in that short time. Didn't get control of it for over 2 years.
There's no photo for 2005 when I was my heaviest because there are no photos of me that entire year. The 2004 photo I wasn't yet at 200 lbs.
Anyway, this proves nothing really. I just thought I'd share my years of yo-yoing.
I don't feel like I gained any more easily than I did before, and I lost the weight again just by eating less (and trying my hardest to avoid candy) without exercise after that 2009 gain. But when I discovered Keto, it was an entirely new experience. I didn't have to go hungry! And I've achieved results unlike I've ever experienced before. At the point that I weighed 144 this round, I was wearing a size 6 and the 8's from when I had lost before were waaaay too big.
So, I feel confident that a much much larger percentage of the weight I've lost this time is body fat and not muscle. Even without exercise this time.4 -
@Sunny_Bunny_ I really like that blog! How neat.1
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daylitemag wrote: »I haven't read this article but the idea that I've lost muscle as well as fat is something that I find quite upsetting. I've been losing and gaining weight my whole life. No one ever told me that I might also be losing muscle. I've never been an athletic person so I'm sure I don't have any extra muscle to lose.
I might just be paranoid but I now find myself feeling weaker. Particularly in my upper body. Not sure what to do I always eat a lot of protein and have throughout the last six months. Should I be worried?
From what I understand (in a very simplistic way so it makes sense to me ), when you lose weight your body has a choice of whether to burn fat or muscle. Muscle uses more calories than fat on an hourly basis, so if food is in short supply for very long it makes more sense to your body to burn the muscle off to conserve energy. This is why VLCD is a bad idea especially long term (and why WLS patients seem to lose more muscle than average people who lose weight slower or with less of a deficit). It makes more sense to dump the expensive calorie hog than the relatively maintenance free fat reserves for survival purposes.
But if you have a smaller deficit, enough protein *and* your muscles are being used regularly, it makes more sense for your body to burn the fat instead. It still gets rid of something that burns calories, so helping your body balance its energy equation, but it tends to keep what is being used.
So the lesson from my overly simplistic childlike explanation is to keep a smaller deficit (lose weight a little slower), eat enough protein to support your muscle needs, and use the muscles you plan to keep! It doesnt take being a weight lifter - body weight exercises go a long way. The trick is that they need to be progressive - your muscles will become more effecient over time if you dont challenge them, and they will use fewer calories to do the same thing. So if you are only doing body weight exercises, find ways to make it harder when it gets easy for you (i.e. for pushups - once you can do regular ones more than 10 or 20 at a time easily, put your feet up on a small box so you have a downward incline, or use the TRX type straps to add instability, etc).
Use it or lose it
Could you post the science behind your opinion that VLCD is a bad idea especially long term?
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GaleHawkins wrote: »daylitemag wrote: »I haven't read this article but the idea that I've lost muscle as well as fat is something that I find quite upsetting. I've been losing and gaining weight my whole life. No one ever told me that I might also be losing muscle. I've never been an athletic person so I'm sure I don't have any extra muscle to lose.
I might just be paranoid but I now find myself feeling weaker. Particularly in my upper body. Not sure what to do I always eat a lot of protein and have throughout the last six months. Should I be worried?
From what I understand (in a very simplistic way so it makes sense to me ), when you lose weight your body has a choice of whether to burn fat or muscle. Muscle uses more calories than fat on an hourly basis, so if food is in short supply for very long it makes more sense to your body to burn the muscle off to conserve energy. This is why VLCD is a bad idea especially long term (and why WLS patients seem to lose more muscle than average people who lose weight slower or with less of a deficit). It makes more sense to dump the expensive calorie hog than the relatively maintenance free fat reserves for survival purposes.
But if you have a smaller deficit, enough protein *and* your muscles are being used regularly, it makes more sense for your body to burn the fat instead. It still gets rid of something that burns calories, so helping your body balance its energy equation, but it tends to keep what is being used.
So the lesson from my overly simplistic childlike explanation is to keep a smaller deficit (lose weight a little slower), eat enough protein to support your muscle needs, and use the muscles you plan to keep! It doesnt take being a weight lifter - body weight exercises go a long way. The trick is that they need to be progressive - your muscles will become more effecient over time if you dont challenge them, and they will use fewer calories to do the same thing. So if you are only doing body weight exercises, find ways to make it harder when it gets easy for you (i.e. for pushups - once you can do regular ones more than 10 or 20 at a time easily, put your feet up on a small box so you have a downward incline, or use the TRX type straps to add instability, etc).
Use it or lose it
Could you post the science behind your opinion that VLCD is a bad idea especially long term?
Is the C for calorie or carbohydrate? In context, I assume calorie.0 -
SamandaIndia wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »daylitemag wrote: »I haven't read this article but the idea that I've lost muscle as well as fat is something that I find quite upsetting. I've been losing and gaining weight my whole life. No one ever told me that I might also be losing muscle. I've never been an athletic person so I'm sure I don't have any extra muscle to lose.
I might just be paranoid but I now find myself feeling weaker. Particularly in my upper body. Not sure what to do I always eat a lot of protein and have throughout the last six months. Should I be worried?
From what I understand (in a very simplistic way so it makes sense to me ), when you lose weight your body has a choice of whether to burn fat or muscle. Muscle uses more calories than fat on an hourly basis, so if food is in short supply for very long it makes more sense to your body to burn the muscle off to conserve energy. This is why VLCD is a bad idea especially long term (and why WLS patients seem to lose more muscle than average people who lose weight slower or with less of a deficit). It makes more sense to dump the expensive calorie hog than the relatively maintenance free fat reserves for survival purposes.
But if you have a smaller deficit, enough protein *and* your muscles are being used regularly, it makes more sense for your body to burn the fat instead. It still gets rid of something that burns calories, so helping your body balance its energy equation, but it tends to keep what is being used.
So the lesson from my overly simplistic childlike explanation is to keep a smaller deficit (lose weight a little slower), eat enough protein to support your muscle needs, and use the muscles you plan to keep! It doesnt take being a weight lifter - body weight exercises go a long way. The trick is that they need to be progressive - your muscles will become more effecient over time if you dont challenge them, and they will use fewer calories to do the same thing. So if you are only doing body weight exercises, find ways to make it harder when it gets easy for you (i.e. for pushups - once you can do regular ones more than 10 or 20 at a time easily, put your feet up on a small box so you have a downward incline, or use the TRX type straps to add instability, etc).
Use it or lose it
Could you post the science behind your opinion that VLCD is a bad idea especially long term?
Is the C for calorie or carbohydrate? In context, I assume calorie.
Thanks. Now that makes sense. 0
