Muscle aches and pains connected to thyroid? (Sorry quite long!)
becwana
Posts: 157 Member
So I have been diagnosed as hypothyroid for the past 5-6 years (although was almost certainly for a good few years before).
One of the reasons I looked at low carb was due to reading the link to gluten intolerance and also excess oestrogen with thyroid function.
Just this past week I have been having the most awful and weird pain in my muscles.
It's not in one area, it actually moves - so at some points my shoulders and breast bone area were bad - other times my legs - right now my arms are suffering. It's even in really strange places like the top of my feet and the front of my throat.
This is actually preventing me from carrying out tasks such as opening a can with a can opener, turning a key in a door. It's painful going upstairs and it's painful lifting my children up (one is 4 months old do no choice there!).
It's extremely painful, like sore muscles when you have had an intense workout and is decidedly worse in the morning and at night.
I visited the GP today and they are taking bloods on Monday. I briefly mentioned that I had been on a low carb diet and she was supportive...to a point.
Her theory is that I have become hyperthyroid (possibly the diet repairing my thyroid??) but need to wait (in agony) for lab results.
Then the GP asked me if I was taking any supplements and I explained I take magnesium and potassium - she told me I need to stop taking them??? She mentioned something about how magnesium would be prescribed for muscle cramps and that it could be contributing?
Any thoughts? Should I stop?? Could this be linked to actually taking mag?
One of the reasons I looked at low carb was due to reading the link to gluten intolerance and also excess oestrogen with thyroid function.
Just this past week I have been having the most awful and weird pain in my muscles.
It's not in one area, it actually moves - so at some points my shoulders and breast bone area were bad - other times my legs - right now my arms are suffering. It's even in really strange places like the top of my feet and the front of my throat.
This is actually preventing me from carrying out tasks such as opening a can with a can opener, turning a key in a door. It's painful going upstairs and it's painful lifting my children up (one is 4 months old do no choice there!).
It's extremely painful, like sore muscles when you have had an intense workout and is decidedly worse in the morning and at night.
I visited the GP today and they are taking bloods on Monday. I briefly mentioned that I had been on a low carb diet and she was supportive...to a point.
Her theory is that I have become hyperthyroid (possibly the diet repairing my thyroid??) but need to wait (in agony) for lab results.
Then the GP asked me if I was taking any supplements and I explained I take magnesium and potassium - she told me I need to stop taking them??? She mentioned something about how magnesium would be prescribed for muscle cramps and that it could be contributing?
Any thoughts? Should I stop?? Could this be linked to actually taking mag?
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Replies
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In a nutshell, yes, the muscle/joint pain can indeed be related to thyroid. Do you have Hashimoto's thyroiditis? Are you taking medication, and if so, what kind?
Also, do you know the results of your last thyroid test? You may be under-medicated and the aches might be a consequence of that. I know that when my Free T3 is too low, or my TSH is too high, I get achey, among other symptoms.
Magnesium would help with the aches and pains, not hurt you. I can't imagine why you'd be told to stop taking it.
When you discuss your bloodwork with your doctor, perhaps you could post it here? Often doctors believe that TSH values that are within lab range are okay when in fact they aren't, and this can result in the patient suffering symptoms that don't get addressed (weight gain being among them).
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blumcenterforhealth.com/the-immune-system-recovery-plan/
Susan Blum MD is the author and developed Hashimoto hypothyroidism. Her research for herself became the book. It talks about arthritis, lupus, etc autoimmune health issues as well. It came this week and I have read about half of it and I am learning a lot. In fact I just started taking Ashwagandha yesterday and decided to get back on HWC. Taking it with milk is a common protocol in India.
There are many reviews on Amazon if there is interest. My Organic India brand is actually bottled in India.0 -
I wouldn't quit with the magnesium or potassium entirely. Once you go low carb your needs for Mg and K are often a bit higher.... I see no reason to quit. And to be honest, my first guess was going to be electrolyte imbalances. Did you increase sodium to 3000-5000mg when you went low carb? If not, I definitely would not drop K and Mg because they could be getting low to make up for an electrolyte imbalance. Increase your salt if you haven't already.
It does sound a bit like an autoimmune thing to me. The moving pain is not that unusal. It's on both sides of the body too? The throat thing is not something I have ever experinced though (I have hashi's and a couple of other autoimmune issues). I did have a flare-up when I changed my diet. My theory is that it was a shock to my system. It did not appear to change my medication requirements for my hypothyroidism.
I'm afaid I'm not much help. Keep us updated.1 -
Thanks for all your answers
@LauraCoth - I've not been diagnosed with hashimotos so no idea what caused my hypo in the first place - I'm on 150mcg of levothyroxine.
My last thyroid test was done during pregnancy and I don't know the numbers, was just told it was fine and to stay on current dose.
To be honest, my GP is not really very good at follow ups and I need to be more on the ball at reminding them to review me!! I'm going to ask for a printout of all my results this time.
@GaleHawkins - thank you I will look into that!
@nvmomketo - I don't think it's electrolyte imbalance as an pretty good at keeping up my sodium - I've been doing keto on and off (due to pregnancy cravings I just could not fight!!) since early 2014 and at the start I didn't get it right and the muscle cramps I experienced were different from this. Plus I always get a headache when sodium bit low and don't have that.
I'm pretty sure it's autoimmune, yesterday I kept getting hot, red and blotchy and then freezing cold and goosebumpy. I'm leaning towards hyper though I think as took my pulse yesterday and it was 90bpm and I felt a bit 'wired' last night when trying to sleep. Pain is both sides of the body.
I think the GP advised to stop mag and potassium through lack of understanding?0 -
becwana,
Most GP's are woefully undereducated when it comes to the thyroid. The vast majority of doctors will only test your TSH, which is not a thyroid hormone, is heavily influenced by stress, illness and other outside factors, and is a weak guage of actual thyroid hormone levels on its own.
Additionally, the accepted ranges considered "normal" for TSH are far too wide, letting people fall through the cracks. Most people feel best when their TSH is at between 0.5 and 1.5, and their Free T4 and Free T3 are in the upper half, ideally in the upper third, of the normal range. Lab ranges go as high as TSH 5.2, a value that would absolutely push me into serious hypo symptoms very quickly.
Additionally, many, many thyroid patients do not feel well on levothyroxine only. Levothyroxine contains only T4, which is supposed to be converted by the body into T3, the active form of the hormone that works directly on the body. The problem is, many people do not convert T4 into T3, possibly because we have other issues going on in our bodies. For these people, T4-only treatment does not work. I took levothyroxine for 20 years without cessation of most of my symptoms. It took a more enlightened and better educated doctor to finally run a complete thyroid panel on me, and he discovered that I need both T4 and T3. I still have issues, and I'm still trying to find my optimal dose, but I feel much better now.
Ask for your thyroid test results and take a look at what your doctor considers to be okay. It might be that your TSH is too high for you to feel well.3 -
@nvmomketo - I don't think it's electrolyte imbalance as an pretty good at keeping up my sodium - I've been doing keto on and off (due to pregnancy cravings I just could not fight!!) since early 2014 and at the start I didn't get it right and the muscle cramps I experienced were different from this. Plus I always get a headache when sodium bit low and don't have that.
I'm pretty sure it's autoimmune, yesterday I kept getting hot, red and blotchy and then freezing cold and goosebumpy. I'm leaning towards hyper though I think as took my pulse yesterday and it was 90bpm and I felt a bit 'wired' last night when trying to sleep. Pain is both sides of the body.
I think the GP advised to stop mag and potassium through lack of understanding?
Yeah...
It does sound autoimmune. Getting your thyroid tested again is probably wise. What seems true for me for thyroid testing is that you want a TSH very close to 1 (unless you take T3 in which case it will be low), and the Free T3 and Free T4 in the 50-75% range of the normal range. I start feeling hyper when FT3 is above 80%, and I am still hypo if my FT3 and FT4 are below the middle marks of the normal range.
Consider logging your symptoms, foods, and activities if you have a day or so before seein the doctor. I think they sometimes believe we exagerate. Take pictures or any rashes, elevated BP results or high body temp readings. Proof sometimes helps.
Skipping some of the foods that are common problems for those with autoimmune issues could help. Grains and gluten, dairy and nightshades (potatoes, tomatoes, eggplant), and sugar might help some. You're probably skipping most of those already. An improvement may not be noticeable for days or weeks though.
Good luck!!1 -
@LauraCoth @nvmomketo
Thank you both so much for your advise! I had bloods taken this morning so will hopefully have results in a day or 2, although I will no doubt have to chase them!!
It was hard enough getting diagnosed in the first instance, I was so exhausted all the time, my hair was falling out, I was constantly aching and the dr I saw kept telling me I had depression!!!
Changed dr and that one thankfully decided to go on symptoms as opposed to bloods as my bloods were 'borderline' although I have no idea what number that would mean.
I think I need to start being a lot more assertive and proactive when it comes to this..!!0 -
Yeah, I've learned the hard way that you absolutely have to become a pushy broad to get any action out of a doctor. Read as much as you can about the issues around thyroid, arm yourself with information based on research, and let them have it if they try and fob you off.1
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This is what I am doing as all thyroid levels showed 'normal' EXCEPT my anti-TPO levels which were fairly high. Obviously means 'normal' for most is not normal for me. I'm not pregnant, lol, but the two references/studies show it works in non-pregnant women too.
"SELENIUM- In a randomized prospective controlled study, 77 TPO+ pregnant women received 200 ug selenomethionine daily starting at the 12th week of pregnancy, and 74 TPO+ women received a placebo. The treated group had significantly lower TPO antibody levels at the end of pregnancy and during the post-partum while on treatment. The incidence of PPT was reduced from 48.6 to 28.6% in the treated group, and the incidence of permanent hypothyroidism was equivalently reduced. Thyroid hormone levels did not differ. This one report is certainly most interesting, but needs confirmation before this treatment can be suggested for general application (108.1). Confirming earlier studies, in Hashimoto’s patients, 200 mug Se in the form of l-selenomethionine orally for 6 months caused a significant decrease of 21% in serum anti-TPO levels. Cessation caused an increase in the anti-TPO concentrations.(108.2). A slightly opposing study, however, was reported no immunological benefit of selenium in patients with moderate disease activity (in terms of TPOAb and cytokine production patterns) may not (equally) benefit as patients with high disease activity (108.3). Selenium responsiveness may be different among patients with Hashimoto’s thyroiditis."
thyroidmanager.org/chapter/hashimotos-thyroiditis/
Additional PubMed Abstract:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17696828
Effects of 12 months treatment with L-selenomethionine on serum anti-TPO Levels in Patients with Hashimoto's thyroiditis.
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I recently had the antibodies tests done, and luckily, they all came back negative. I've had to add T3 medication to my regiment, and I cant tell it is definitely making a difference. However, I'm still adapting. That being said, I cannot SUPPLEMENT POTASSIUM. IAT ALL. It makes me dump magnesium.
So yes, I supplementing potassium can trigger the rapid heartbeat and all that mess. I have always always been told NOT to supplement potassium without tests showing a need for it. Some folks can add lite salt to things (I do this sometimes, but not much...). If I add in too much lite salt, I will get cramps like crazy. Like you think I just ran a marathon without any electrolytes crazy.
And if you're not having loose stools constantly, you're not OD'ing on the magnesium. Your body will automatically dump too much magnesium in giving you diarrhea. So my personal opinion would be - stop the potassium. Adjust the magnesium (possibly won't need adjustments after stopping potassium).
Get more thorough tests done on your thyroid, and get to an endocrinologist. I had to convince my PCP to run the free T3/Reverse T3, etc. numbers (my endo did years back, but while my other stuff was BAD, so it didn't POP as important). But once she ran them, I discussed with my endo and he agreed with our interpretation. I also am adding back in my iodine, which when labs showed the levels were high, I felt awesome. When showing high-normal, I feel like crap. So obviously those tests reflect how I feel...and I'm lucky my doc knows that particularly in women, it's not all black and white - sometimes some conditions hide true results.
www.stopthethyroidmadness.com is one of my favorite sites. www.thyroidpharmacist.com is another great one (she's done talks in all the summits going around lately)... www.hypothyroidmom.com is another one I like. Don't be afraid to do your own research!!!
And I personally get a weird aching deep pain, typically from the legs up, radiating outward from the center of my bones - not always muscle specific, and I'm still working to isolate the trigger. Typically exhaustion is a big one, but I had a HORRIBLE day of it not long ago, and it was while I was on vacation or something, if I recall - whatever it was, it wasn't exhaustion related. I upped my magnesium and sodium, and by the next day, I could already feel improvements. I still don't know what it is triggered or caused by, but autoimmune things, including Lupus and several others, have been tested and eliminated as causes...0 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »I recently had the antibodies tests done, and luckily, they all came back negative. I've had to add T3 medication to my regiment, and I cant tell it is definitely making a difference. However, I'm still adapting. That being said, I cannot SUPPLEMENT POTASSIUM. IAT ALL. It makes me dump magnesium.
I'm just about to add some compounded time-release T3 to my regime. Even when my TSH is suppressed (0.25) with my desiccated thyroid medication, my Free T3 is in the lower half of the normal range. I worry that it will make my insomnia worse, but it might help, you never know.
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I take mine in two doses, 3 am and 3 pm, and I find that I sleep better. I would expect if you take your dose early enough that you'll actually sleep better after you get used to it than before - similar to how people using a daylight lamp to regulate serotonin and melatonin releases naturally get reset easily as well. (hugs) @LauraCoth I'm very much looking forward to your feedback, as I do have occasional crashes 2-3 hours after taking my T3 medication, so one doctor is suggesting the time released compounded formula, as well... I've only been on mine a month, so I want to give it a second month before switching things up further.
My TSH was still higher than my endo wanted for a woman who will be 40 next month, so we added the T3 to my T4, but I don't take the naturally dessicated thyroid medicine, as of yet. When I first started, I had good symptom relief, and so we were reluctant to make the transition to where i would feel bad before feeling better again. How well do you like your NDT med?0 -
For the first year I suffered from heart pounding at night - partly because I have adrenal problems that won't go away, and partly because, in spite of my objections, my GP ripped me off Synthroid and made me go without thyroid meds for 6 weeks before I started the Erfa Thyroid, during which period my TSH went up to 146. As a result, when I began the Erfa Thyroid my heart went crazy with the T3, which it had never encountered before. I also think he increased my dose too quickly. I shouldn't complain, though, because at least he was open-minded enough to prescribe it in the first place, but I think I was his first NDT patient.
Apart from that, many of my symptoms started to disappear pretty quickly. I wasn't so cold all the time, my constant heartburn vanished, and I felt brighter.
The heart pounding stopped after about 8 months.1 -
Well my dr would not discuss my results over the phone but told me they needed to see me but not to be alarmed. Appt thurs morning so will see what they say!
Thank you all for your advice, knowledge and experiences.
I've actually been fine - the muscle aches went after about a week and my heart rate back to normal - have cut potassium as advised!1 -
Vitamin D, Vitamin K and Magnesium were the only vitamins my doctor really advised I make sure and take with hashi and osteopenia (he has hashi too) though I take others as well. I have a lot of neck/shoulder pain when I am undermedicated. .1
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Vitamin D, Vitamin K and Magnesium were the only vitamins my doctor really advised I make sure and take with hashi and osteopenia (he has hashi too) though I take others as well. I have a lot of neck/shoulder pain when I am undermedicated. .
@cwgrant67 - I would be really interested after my current research to know what doses of D/K and magnesium your doctors recommended with this! I'm finding that the levels needed are far higher that I previously thought.0 -
10000 a day for Vitamin D, so i can stay in the higher range, he tests periodically, as I have been low for at least 10 years even with supplementation at lower level. I don't use from the sun. Vitamin K and Magnesium I don't remember exact levels.1
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This article here is really interesting... The first part kind of annoys me (because it leaves out a lot of info while creating panic), but so far the second part, where they get into Magnesium and Vitamin K deficiencies are really interesting!!
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/stop-vitamin-d
I was taking at least 5000 IU D3 and the Super K Plus with 1500 mcg K1, 1000 mc K2/M4, and 200 mcg K2/M7. My endocrinologist said that my D level was still too low for his liking, and he told me to take that does at least twice a day, and that I could probably easily take double doses twice a day... Have upped accordingly and hitting that whole other stride of mental clarity and energy again...
ETA: I don't process D3 from the sun very well, easily. I always burn with any UV exposure almost at all - always have.0 -
So finally got my blood results today
TSH 0.88
T4 14.9
But 2 raised inflammation markers
CRP - 20
ESR - 21
No explanation except 'could have been a virus'
Due to retest bloods in 2 weeks and if still raised, will do further investigation.0 -
@becwana - According to my understanding, your TSH is in a good place, the lower part of range, but your T4 is high (assuming that's total). That tells me something that something is still off.
From a board: (and on this site: http://www.gpnotebook.co.uk/simplepage.cfm?ID=-966066110)
Here's a rule of thumb for a normal ESR (ESR is a useful indication of the presence and intensity of an inflammatory process. It is not diagnostic of a particular disease. It rises with age and in anaemia.)
men - ESR given by age in years divided by 2
women - ESR given by age in (years+10) divided by 2
So, a woman my age 58 - would have a normal ESR close to 34. But 'normal' has a range either side of this.
I have lupus and take steroids and anti malarials and my last ESR was 33. This means it's under control and no further damage is being done to my internal organs. Without these drugs I was once 83 !!
37+10=47/2=23.5, so ESR being 21 isn't THAT elevated...
Not to trigger any worry, but here are some results pages.
http://patient.info/doctor/acute-phase-proteins-crp-esr-and-viscosity
Looks like the biggest risks are arthritis type stuff. Did he test your RH Factor? Also, PIV and SAT (sub-acute thyroiditis), but with all these things, there are many other tests that clarify or eliminate things as possible...
Hyperthyroidism generally has super low TSH (<0.05)... Did they run any antibodies tests?0 -
He did ask me if there was rheumatoid arthritis in my family history (there's not).
No other then thyroid function he tested my liver / kidney function
Vitamin
Full Blood count (not sure if that shows antibodies?)
Electrolytes
B12
Hba1C
Everything else was in range.
The ESR range was given as 1-14 so not too far out.
CRP range was 1-10
I was messaging a friend earlier who has hashimoto's along with a lot of other health issues and the range for T4 is different in my area then my friend who lives in the next county (she is approx 15 miles from me) and if I lived where she does, my T4 would be classed as low! It's crazy!0 -
Don't use TSH as a guide to thyroid health. Not only is it not a good measure (it's influenced by many things like sleep and stress levels) but also, as you have seen, there is no agreement from lab to lab as to the actual range AND also there is disagreement on TSH range from doctor to doctor.
Much better to look at Free T3 and Free T4.2 -
@becwana Antibodies tests have to be specifically requested, including the one for RH Factor, autoimmune hypothyroidism, and Hashimoto's... I've had all three done. Going low carb brought my RH factor down lower than my initial safe test, and the other two I tested negative, but as we all know, anything can change!
The further I go on, the more I learn about blood results, the more I have to laugh at the standard battery of tests. The electrolyte tests really don't tell you anything other than that your body can still regulate your blood levels okay. It doesn't tell you if your body has leeched the magnesium, potassium, and sodium from the rest of your body, leaving you in a deficit, even though your "blood concentration is good." B12 and D3, those levels are important... Some things are flags for dehydration, but the basic panels are really "screening tools" to indicate whether further testing is warranted.
All I can say is, don't give up, keep researching, if a diagnosis truly doesn't FEEL right, keep plugging away, keep asking questions... You will get to the bottom of things eventually and start back to feeling right. Remember, too, that while conception and childbirth are miracles, they are also very stressful to normal bodies, much less to already weakened systems, and can be the trigger that uncovers issues that were already there or conditions that were primed and ready to hit... When I had my daughter, the hormonal shifts triggered a huge flare in my PCOS condition, which in turn put more strain on my thyroid. It took me YEARS (10 in fact) to even begin to get to the real root of everything before beginning to get it all sorted out (kiddo will be 16 this fall)... I honestly feel very blessed these days to have such a wonderful group of resources in all of our MFP group of friends here - many folks far more educated in diverse topics and more research oriented than I am. Because of this fabulous group of people, I'm finally feeling human again - something I'd given up hope of nearly a decade ago!!!
(HUGS)2 -
So...update on the thyroid medication:
I am now taking my extra T3 every other day with no side effects. Once I have my next blood test (end of August) I'll consider taking it daily if there is a need.
The bottom line for me is that if I want to sleep, i have to take two doses of medication daily. Adding the time-release T3 seems to be helping my sleep and overall energy levels. I was hoping it would kick start my weight loss, but alas, that hasn't happened. Maybe taking it daily will accomplish this for me.
Originally my ND suggested that I might benefit from having all my thyroid medication compounded as a time-release formula, but since this seems to be working, I think I won't mess with success.3 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »And I personally get a weird aching deep pain, typically from the legs up, radiating outward from the center of my bones - not always muscle specific, and I'm still working to isolate the trigger. Typically exhaustion is a big one, but I had a HORRIBLE day of it not long ago, and it was while I was on vacation or something, if I recall - whatever it was, it wasn't exhaustion related. I upped my magnesium and sodium, and by the next day, I could already feel improvements. I still don't know what it is triggered or caused by, but autoimmune things, including Lupus and several others, have been tested and eliminated as causes...
Oh, wow...I was looking up a reference, and I'd saved this post!!!
Regarding that deep bone ache, I think I have anecdotally figured a part of it out. Someone posted about leg/muscle/bone pain a while back and boron. I take this, and it's super cheap, and so that little fact niggled in the back of my head (for the life of me I can't remember who said it or where, but this is the only forum I'm really active in specifically - so if anyone remembers or saved the post too, please tag me in it or something! Okay, thanks a million in advance).... Okay, anyway, so I can't remember where I heard it, only that it stuck in my brain. So the last time I started getting all bone-pain restless-leg super-twitchy can't-get-comfy-no matter-what dreading-going-to-bed-cause-all-I'll-do-is-toss-and-turn feeling, knowing that I'm exhausted AF and haven't slept well recently (which is my MAIN trigger), I decided to take a boron supp at night, too instead of just my normal in the morning one. I settled down quickly enough, because I went to bed short thereafter, and instead of tossing and turning darned near all frigging night, I was asleep within my normal 10-ish minutes, slept decently, and woke feeling not miserablelevelsofHELL.... So, every time I get twitchy or miss sleep, I add a pill in. I've been hit and miss - sometimes every other night, some times all nights, sometimes not for several days. Trying to see if I can find anywhere that you can OD on boron...
I know I heard somewhere that Boron deficiencies are almost as significant in the "missed" labs by docs as magnesium and K2. And Boron is one of the things that strengthens cell walls. So it makes me wonder by correlation (not causation) if the pain is caused by electrolyte imbalance or something drawing out necessary nutrients from my bones - like leeching the magnesium (supplementing it doesn't help, so probably something else I don't know I need to add) or something... Just made me think on it. Anyone know anything on this?0 -
@becwana - any updates/results on this now that we're almost a year out?0
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@canadjineh - Great info! My formula is 3 mg. So taking it twice a day should't be a big issue. I definitely have NO symptoms on the overdose list. So I'm going to keep on. I've never had anyone talk about osteoporosis, and we have a wellness screening coming up at work, and bone density is one of the factors. So I'm hoping I can find out there.
Might make some sense, as my former PCP kept wanting to test me for Lupus...she did 2 or 3 times...always negative. 1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »blumcenterforhealth.com/the-immune-system-recovery-plan/
Susan Blum MD is the author and developed Hashimoto hypothyroidism. Her research for herself became the book. It talks about arthritis, lupus, etc autoimmune health issues as well. It came this week and I have read about half of it and I am learning a lot. In fact I just started taking Ashwagandha yesterday and decided to get back on HWC. Taking it with milk is a common protocol in India.
There are many reviews on Amazon if there is interest. My Organic India brand is actually bottled in India.
As an update I really did not like the above Ashwaganda and moved to using the standardize KSM-66 version. There are many sources of this version but I am using Jarrow Formulas taking 4 capsules morning and evening. Below are links to ashwaganda abstracts only. I am not a member but use this site often for real research on many supplements.
greenmedinfo.com/substance/ashwagandha1 -
The ashwagandha I use is NOW brand, 450 mg or so. Standardized. I'm on low dosage, and I can't tell enough difference to increase or not. What effects did it have for you @GaleHawkins ?1
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