How Alcohol Interrupts Fat Burning Metabolism
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Does anyone drink red wine around here? What are some low carb red wines? I never drink..except maybe once a year (jack and Diet Coke). But sometimes when I go to a nice restaurant, I'd like to order a glass but I just don't know enough about carb counts and red wine to actually order one.0
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Someone posted a link maybe 6 months back with a list - maybe @DittoDan? I honestly can't remember who, and since I don't really drink, I doubt I kept it, but I'm checking my email just in case... @Sunny_Bunny_ ? Anyone?
https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/alcohol
This was the only link I could find, and it wasn't great. Hopefully some else saved the convo.
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A month or so ago I had started having a little bourbon in the evenings. I noticed a stall on weight loss really quickly, so I stopped it... after the bottle was gone4
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I drink Grey Goose straight with lime or sometimes cracked peppercorns, and dry red wines (not together, hahaha). Maybe two servings a week on different days. Hasn't affected my maintenance, but then again that is well below the generally accepted criteria for a moderate drinker (NIH says 1per day for women).2
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KnitOrMiss wrote: »KnitOrMiss wrote: »@RalfLott - I still have to say I find it alarming that it simply douses our fat burning metabolism, so even if we stay on plan, we literally stop most all of the benefits of low carb eating simply by having a drink? I'm not a drinker really, but I still find this alarming.
Along with the 300% increase in estrogen?!?! No one needs that kind of mess. Ditches the testosterone? If I were a man, I think that alone would get me to stop drinking!
As a diabetic, who is not chasing keto for the sake of keto (but for the impact eating fewer carbs has on my blood glucose), and (1) who misses the occasional slice of pizza or bread as a treat and (2) who occasionally eats at restaurants where carb counts are not readily available or estimatable, it's a trade-off I'd gladly make.
(It has no impact on my appetite or weight loss - beyond the caloric one - and it allows me to eat about 30 additional carbs without impacting my blood glucose.)
@neohdiver between this comment above, and @RalfLott using it to manage dawn phenomenon, this has me wondering if it is partially the fat burning process overnight that triggers the dawn phenomenon - or somehow contributes to better insulin sensitivity? There has to be something if two folks of random age/gender/metabolism breakdowns find very related reactions...
I just posted this because it was presented as fact. I was just wondering if anyone had articles of scientific studies or anything...
The way that it reduces blood sugar is only because the liver cannot secrete glycogen at the same time its processing alcohol. It has no effect on insulin sensitivity or insulin. It's simply that your liver stops secreting glycogen. Which is helpful for anyone that overproduces insulin. It can help to stop the perpetual cycle of glycogen... secrete insulin... stubborn resistant cells... more insulin... now blood sugar falls too fast even if it doesn't go low this will likely call upon more glycogen as a safety net... and the cycle begins.
It also makes drinking alcohol a bit more risky for a T1D. On minor insulin overdoses, the low blood sugar can still be corrected by liver glycogen. But not when drinking alcohol. They're on their own to correct even small lows.2 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »@neohdiver between this comment above, and @RalfLott using it to manage dawn phenomenon, this has me wondering if it is partially the fat burning process overnight that triggers the dawn phenomenon - or somehow contributes to better insulin sensitivity? There has to be something if two folks of random age/gender/metabolism breakdowns find very related reactions...
I just posted this because it was presented as fact. I was just wondering if anyone had articles of scientific studies or anything...
Alcohol is a known risk factor for hypoglycemia - since I am not susceptible to hypoglycemc incidents I am using the same principle (shutting down the liver glucose factory) to allow me to eat the amount my liver would have produced.
(In fact - the relationship between the two is so well known, I'm having a challenge finding an article where it isn't taken as a given. Here's an example: "Moreover, drug or alcohol consumption may cause hypoglycemia, particularly in conjunction with glucose-lowering agents, since it delays glucose counterregulation." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3639216/
Here's one article that finds an inverse relationship between drinking and A1c (in other words, the more you drink, the lower your A1c) I use it on an occasional treat basis, but similar principles would apply. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26277223
I discovered it by accident, did enough research to understand the basics, then tested to find out how it impacts me, personally.
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »The way that it reduces blood sugar is only because the liver cannot secrete glycogen at the same time its processing alcohol. It has no effect on insulin sensitivity or insulin. It's simply that your liver stops secreting glycogen. Which is helpful for anyone that overproduces insulin. It can help to stop the perpetual cycle of glycogen... secrete insulin... stubborn resistant cells... more insulin... now blood sugar falls too fast even if it doesn't go low this will likely call upon more glycogen as a safety net... and the cycle begins.
It also makes drinking alcohol a bit more risky for a T1D. On minor insulin overdoses, the low blood sugar can still be corrected by liver glycogen. But not when drinking alcohol. They're on their own to correct even small lows.
Yes - but also helpful for anyone who is insulin resistant (whether or not there is overproduction of insulin). The key being that the glucose and the insulin are mismatched (either because of not enough insulin is being produced - OR you need more insulin to move the glucose out. Temporarily shutting down the liver decreases the glucose that needs to be transported out of the bloodstream. My insulin can keep up with about 20 grams - with a glass of wine, I get about 30 grams more (while my liver is otherwise occupied).
But yes - it does make it more risky for T1D (or for T2 diabetics on insulin, sulfonylureas, or any other medication that produces a non-food-dependent supply of insulin).
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »The way that it reduces blood sugar is only because the liver cannot secrete glycogen at the same time its processing alcohol. It has no effect on insulin sensitivity or insulin. It's simply that your liver stops secreting glycogen. Which is helpful for anyone that overproduces insulin. It can help to stop the perpetual cycle of glycogen... secrete insulin... stubborn resistant cells... more insulin... now blood sugar falls too fast even if it doesn't go low this will likely call upon more glycogen as a safety net... and the cycle begins.
It also makes drinking alcohol a bit more risky for a T1D. On minor insulin overdoses, the low blood sugar can still be corrected by liver glycogen. But not when drinking alcohol. They're on their own to correct even small lows.
Yes - but also helpful for anyone who is insulin resistant (whether or not there is overproduction of insulin). The key being that the glucose and the insulin are mismatched (either because of not enough insulin is being produced - OR you need more insulin to move the glucose out. Temporarily shutting down the liver decreases the glucose that needs to be transported out of the bloodstream. My insulin can keep up with about 20 grams - with a glass of wine, I get about 30 grams more (while my liver is otherwise occupied).
But yes - it does make it more risky for T1D (or for T2 diabetics on insulin, sulfonylureas, or any other medication that produces a non-food-dependent supply of insulin).
I didn't know insulin resistance could exist without a hyperinsulinemic condition as well.
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As far as I know, I haven't experienced BG rebound (from accumulated glucose waiting its turn in the liver line) after the demon rum has been dealth with.
I am pretty clueless here, but it seems like BG rebound might be another potential downside to drinking with T2D.
(Unless, perhaps, you know when the glucose has gotten to the front of the queue and are standing by with more alcohol, insulin, or running shoes - or maybe metformin, which I believe @midwesterner85 suggested has a mechanism similar to alcohol...)1 -
As far as I know, I haven't experienced BG rebound (from accumulated glucose waiting its turn in the liver line) after the demon rum has been dealth with.
I am pretty clueless here, but it seems like BG rebound might be another potential downside to drinking with T2D.
(Unless, perhaps, you know when the glucose has gotten to the front of the queue and are standing by with more alcohol, insulin, or running shoes - or maybe metformin, which I believe @midwesterner85 suggested has a mechanism similar to alcohol...)
Yes, but I'm not sure metformin has nearly the same effectiveness as alcohol. In fact, before the discovery of insulin injections, type 1's were kept alive for awhile by keeping them drunk constantly.2 -
I wish a nightly drink agreed with my roseacea. I drink and my head does an excellent tomato imitation, so I rarely do it.
I haven't actually tested how much it lowers my BG overnight. Hmm. I should try that one day.1 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I didn't know insulin resistance could exist without a hyperinsulinemic condition as well.
My understanding is that the early stage of T2 is insulin resistance. T2 diabetics lose the 1st phase insulin response, which shuts off the liver glucose factory in response to incoming food. As a result, the body is faced with handling the glucose from the liver + the glucoes from the food & doesn't have enough insulin. As a response the body produces more insulin in a vain attempt to clear the excess glucose out of the bloodstream. From there, at least, it is a snowball effect. So, as a practical matter, most T2 diabetics, at least, have both.
Especially when I am talking about using alcohol as a management tool, I tend to focus on the resistance, because it is the resistance that limits the amount of consumed carbs I can manage - alcohol makes it possible for me to manage more because I have enough insulin to manage 20 grams of food + the equivalent of 30 grams that my liver is not spewing; whereas without alcohol I don't have enough insulin to handle 50 grams of carbs.
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midwesterner85 wrote: »As far as I know, I haven't experienced BG rebound (from accumulated glucose waiting its turn in the liver line) after the demon rum has been dealth with.
I am pretty clueless here, but it seems like BG rebound might be another potential downside to drinking with T2D.
(Unless, perhaps, you know when the glucose has gotten to the front of the queue and are standing by with more alcohol, insulin, or running shoes - or maybe metformin, which I believe @midwesterner85 suggested has a mechanism similar to alcohol...)
Yes, but I'm not sure metformin has nearly the same effectiveness as alcohol. In fact, before the discovery of insulin injections, type 1's were kept alive for awhile by keeping them drunk constantly.
Similar mechanism, but not nearly as effective, from my understanding.1 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »As far as I know, I haven't experienced BG rebound (from accumulated glucose waiting its turn in the liver line) after the demon rum has been dealth with.
I am pretty clueless here, but it seems like BG rebound might be another potential downside to drinking with T2D.
(Unless, perhaps, you know when the glucose has gotten to the front of the queue and are standing by with more alcohol, insulin, or running shoes - or maybe metformin, which I believe @midwesterner85 suggested has a mechanism similar to alcohol...)
Yes, but I'm not sure metformin has nearly the same effectiveness as alcohol. In fact, before the discovery of insulin injections, type 1's were kept alive for awhile by keeping them drunk constantly.
Similar mechanism, but not nearly as effective, from my understanding.
I concur.1 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I didn't know insulin resistance could exist without a hyperinsulinemic condition as well.
My understanding is that the early stage of T2 is insulin resistance. T2 diabetics lose the 1st phase insulin response, which shuts off the liver glucose factory in response to incoming food. As a result, the body is faced with handling the glucose from the liver + the glucoes from the food & doesn't have enough insulin. As a response the body produces more insulin in a vain attempt to clear the excess glucose out of the bloodstream. From there, at least, it is a snowball effect. So, as a practical matter, most T2 diabetics, at least, have both.
Especially when I am talking about using alcohol as a management tool, I tend to focus on the resistance, because it is the resistance that limits the amount of consumed carbs I can manage - alcohol makes it possible for me to manage more because I have enough insulin to manage 20 grams of food + the equivalent of 30 grams that my liver is not spewing; whereas without alcohol I don't have enough insulin to handle 50 grams of carbs.
That's how I understand it too. I thought you were saying that insulin isn't overproduced. But I realize you meant not overproduced as in so much that low blood sugar is caused. When I say over produced, I'm referring to the hyperinsulemic state like you just explained.
I understand my confusion now.0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I didn't know insulin resistance could exist without a hyperinsulinemic condition as well.
My understanding is that the early stage of T2 is insulin resistance. T2 diabetics lose the 1st phase insulin response, which shuts off the liver glucose factory in response to incoming food. As a result, the body is faced with handling the glucose from the liver + the glucoes from the food & doesn't have enough insulin. As a response the body produces more insulin in a vain attempt to clear the excess glucose out of the bloodstream. From there, at least, it is a snowball effect. So, as a practical matter, most T2 diabetics, at least, have both.
Especially when I am talking about using alcohol as a management tool, I tend to focus on the resistance, because it is the resistance that limits the amount of consumed carbs I can manage - alcohol makes it possible for me to manage more because I have enough insulin to manage 20 grams of food + the equivalent of 30 grams that my liver is not spewing; whereas without alcohol I don't have enough insulin to handle 50 grams of carbs.
That's how I understand it too. I thought you were saying that insulin isn't overproduced. But I realize you meant not overproduced as in so much that low blood sugar is caused. When I say over produced, I'm referring to the hyperinsulemic state like you just explained.
I understand my confusion now.
Hmm. My understanding is that- All glucose goes through the liver, whether from diet or glycogenolysis/gluconeogenesis, so the liver can maintain glucose homeostasis (by reacting to glucagon, insulin, cortisol, etc);
- it's the head start glucagon gets when the 1st wave of insulin is not forthcoming that spikes BG from dietary carbs in a T2D;
- this in turn causes a belated overproduction of insulin;
- the various cells in the body then defend themselves against the attempt to force too much glucose into their garages, basements, and attics,
- thus becoming insulin resistant.
Q - If this is true (??), then what happens to the dietary glucose from carbs that doesn't get processed right away by the alcohol-distracted liver?1 -
Alcohol (ethanol) is perceived as a poison to get rid of ASAP. Thus the liver stops making both glucose and ketones WHILE BUSY processing the alcohol, AFAIK. I suspect the duration this happens is correlated to volume of alcoholic intake. The body also stops lipolysis during alcohol influence. Cause again the body is busy getting rid of alcohol. Meaning if you go to a party, get hammered and then get the late night munchies...you're metabolically enhancing the chance for gaining net fat. This is possibly why the typical alcoholic body is a skinny fat type with stick legs and beer belly. When drinking a lot, you basically starve the body for nutrients, while providing excess energy to be stored as fat in and around organs.
I drink sometimes now in maintenance, but if I wanna lose fat, I have to pay attention to details like this. YMMV.
Edit: You see the same skinny fat body type in people with NAFLD, because in many ways it's the same metabolic pathways that are triggered with a high fructose diet. I increasingly notice kids with a belly nowadays and this is not because they don't suck the tummy in. I suspect they drink a lot of soda with HFCS on top of the standard high sugar diet all kids love.4 -
Foamroller wrote: »Alcohol (ethanol) is perceived as a poison to get rid of ASAP. Thus the liver stops making both glucose and ketones WHILE BUSY processing the alcohol, AFAIK. I suspect the duration this happens is correlated to volume of alcoholic intake. The body also stops lipolysis during alcohol influence. Cause again the body is busy getting rid of alcohol. Meaning if you go to a party, get hammered and then get the late night munchies...you're metabolically enhancing the chance for gaining net fat. This is possibly why the typical alcoholic body is a skinny fat type with stick legs and beer belly. When drinking a lot, you basically starve the body for nutrients, while providing excess energy to be stored as fat in and around organs.
Thanks, @Foamroller.
So.... what pathway did the sugars and other carbs follow to enhance your belly fat (from the bag of Doritos and liter of Coke you choked down while your liver was working on the alcohol)?2 -
Foamroller wrote: »Alcohol (ethanol) is perceived as a poison to get rid of ASAP. Thus the liver stops making both glucose and ketones WHILE BUSY processing the alcohol, AFAIK. I suspect the duration this happens is correlated to volume of alcoholic intake. The body also stops lipolysis during alcohol influence. Cause again the body is busy getting rid of alcohol. Meaning if you go to a party, get hammered and then get the late night munchies...you're metabolically enhancing the chance for gaining net fat. This is possibly why the typical alcoholic body is a skinny fat type with stick legs and beer belly. When drinking a lot, you basically starve the body for nutrients, while providing excess energy to be stored as fat in and around organs.
I drink sometimes now in maintenance, but if I wanna lose fat, I have to pay attention to details like this. YMMV.
Edit: You see the same skinny fat body type in people with NAFLD, because in many ways it's the same metabolic pathways that are triggered with a high fructose diet. I increasingly notice kids with a belly nowadays and this is not because they don't suck the tummy in. I suspect they drink a lot of soda with HFCS on top of the standard high sugar diet all kids love.
Excellent information.1 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I didn't know insulin resistance could exist without a hyperinsulinemic condition as well.
My understanding is that the early stage of T2 is insulin resistance. T2 diabetics lose the 1st phase insulin response, which shuts off the liver glucose factory in response to incoming food. As a result, the body is faced with handling the glucose from the liver + the glucoes from the food & doesn't have enough insulin. As a response the body produces more insulin in a vain attempt to clear the excess glucose out of the bloodstream. From there, at least, it is a snowball effect. So, as a practical matter, most T2 diabetics, at least, have both.
Especially when I am talking about using alcohol as a management tool, I tend to focus on the resistance, because it is the resistance that limits the amount of consumed carbs I can manage - alcohol makes it possible for me to manage more because I have enough insulin to manage 20 grams of food + the equivalent of 30 grams that my liver is not spewing; whereas without alcohol I don't have enough insulin to handle 50 grams of carbs.
That's how I understand it too. I thought you were saying that insulin isn't overproduced. But I realize you meant not overproduced as in so much that low blood sugar is caused. When I say over produced, I'm referring to the hyperinsulemic state like you just explained.
I understand my confusion now.
Hmm. My understanding is that- All glucose goes through the liver, whether from diet or glycogenolysis/gluconeogenesis, so the liver can maintain glucose homeostasis (by reacting to glucagon, insulin, cortisol, etc);
- it's the head start glucagon gets when the 1st wave of insulin is not forthcoming that spikes BG from dietary carbs in a T2D;
- this in turn causes a belated overproduction of insulin;
- the various cells in the body then defend themselves against the attempt to force too much glucose into their garages, basements, and attics,
- thus becoming insulin resistant.
Q - If this is true (??), then what happens to the dietary glucose from carbs that doesn't get processed right away by the alcohol-distracted liver?
No, I may be wrong on this, but my understanding is that dietary carbs do not pass through the liver to become glucose.
In fact, chewing or sucking on something with simple carbs can raise BG just through exosure through capillaries close to your cheeks and gums.3
