Doesn't Counting Calories Count?
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Dragonwolf wrote: »jrloveless wrote: »I know every ounce lost is a gain, but it's just difficult to keep that in mind when I've been struggling for so long to lose it and then I see others saying they lost XX amount in such a short span. I'd like to be one of those, lol.
Weight loss can also be cyclical. I'll go 3-4 weeks without losing an ounce, then it will suddenly "fall off" over the course of a couple of days.
Put the scale away for now and go by inches and how you feel.
This is what's been happening to me since the first two weeks of keto; 2-4 weeks of not losing, maybe gaining a little, and then it seems to "fall off" over 2-5 days. I don't remember experiencing that on a regular basis with any other WOE I've followed. I'll take it though since it adds up over time.
(Although a couple of those times, I did a semi-egg fast or just a bit of a lower calorie day one or two days and then the weight started falling off again. I have some higher cal days in there, too, so it all evens out but a couple days that are closer to 1000 cals seems to get thing going again.) Granted, I've only been doing this for 2.5 months but I've already experienced that cycle 3 times. 0 -
Counting calories only counts if you want to add a layer of stress to your life. that's my experience, anyway.
I don't really count fat or protein either. I'm kinda lackadaisical with most things except carbs and fiber (goal 40-60 total carbs and 25 of that fiber). I'm here to control my blood sugar tho, over losing weight, so maybe that's why.1 -
This is a pretty dumb argument for not counting calories.
Count carbs, but purposefully don't count calories because why? It's too tyrannical? It's not as effective?
No, you're being purposefully obtuse, avoiding the calorie count by using MFP is like closing your eyes to the truth.
Calories matter, whether or not you want to admit it, that's not the point. Carbs matter, and ignoring calories is just as blinding as ignoring carbs.
So manage both, it's not difficult, your life is not damaged by eating 2,000 calories instead of 3,000. You don't live less, you just live more strict, and discipline is a good thing.
My short answer to this remains the same, "So count your calories, if that's how you feel."
It doesn't hurt me that you're counting. Like many things in this life, your choices aren't going to impact my results one way or the other. With that out of the way, I can tell you that I believe you're wrong. That's alright, too. You believe I am wrong. It's not the end of the world for people to disagree about things. I have many friends on my list who disagree with my opinion on this and other things.
I will never claim that not counting calories is more effective than counting them (where counting calories is defined as conscious restriction below an upper limit but not one above a lower limit). You can, to a degree, force your body to do things faster than it might on its own. Whether or not this is the healthiest choice is another matter. If you consciously count and restrict with a hard limit of 1800 calories a day, you're likely going to lose a little faster than someone (with an identical average TDEE) who averages around 1800 calories a day eating ad libitum. That's because your average intake will be equal or lower to 1800 calories/day. Is that desirable? Maybe. If the extra loss is coming from lean body mass or comes with a metabolic/hormonal shift to a negative state, I wouldn't consider it better. If your goal is the highest rate of change on the scale, no matter what the costs, then you obviously would prefer the restricted state.
I don't track. <period> So, I am not being obtuse by intentionally ignoring MFP's calorie counts. There is none. I don't gain weight unless I've been eating carbs (which I have, admittedly been doing the last couple months). When I don't eat carbs, I lose weight until a certain point and then I remain that weight. That's all without counting/tracking or paying attention to anything but the type of foods that go into my mouth.
I have tracked, while eating as much as I want without concern about the numbers, to get an idea. If I am over-weight, I tend to average around 2,000-2,200 calories a day. When I am at my stable weight, I tend to eat around 2,500-2,700 calories a day. All without actively trying. My body directs my hunger to the degree required by my fat stores.0 -
"Dragonwolf wrote: »"You're missing the point of the original argument. It never says that calories don't matter. Not counting calories does not necessarily equate to eating 3,000 calories (or overeating in general), especially on a low carb, high fat diet. When you restrict carbs, your appetite nearly always levels out to what you need to modulate your weight (lose if you need it, gain if you need it), as long as you listen to and respect it. Study after study has found that when subjects are put on a low carb diet and told to eat what they want as long as they keep their carb intake to a set level, their total caloric intake goes down without them even trying.
In other words, there's a difference between saying "calories don't matter" and "calorie counting doesn't matter."
Well today I learned something. Point well proved!0 -
Wow Fit goat way to stick with a thread!! kudos to you!!
Anyway I struggle with the calorie counting thing. I never know what to do, lol. I do log my food in MFP just to keep a record of what and how much I eat. Many days my calories on come to any where from 800 to 1200. I eat LC, whole foods and this is just where my calories end up, I try to avoid a lot of cheese and HWC and cream cheese because it just doesn't agree with my weight loss it seems.
Anyway no point to my post just thought I would add my thoughts
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teresadutton wrote: »Wow Fit goat way to stick with a thread!! kudos to you!!
Well, this is one thing I really feel strongly believe in. The vast majority of original low carb plans do not include calorie restriction as a part of their plan. I meant for this to grow into a mega-thread of information, and there is a lot in here, but got side-tracked over time.
I did start a thread for the counter-point. As people have a right to disagree with me. There's a link to that one in the original post.0 -
I like to enter what I eat. Idea being what gets measured can be managed. I look to see if there is even a vague link between measurable variables on the input side compared to weight loss, measurement reduction or constipation. Recently I will have to say no relationship so there is something else affecting my weight and my guess is stress.0
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CICO worked for me in the short term, but ultimately led to the all too familiar roller coaster. I hate having to restrict food. That kind of life only lasts for so long. I'm going to up my "calorie goal" to 1,800 a day, which is supposed to be maintenance for me right now, and have faith that low carb will work. Thank you so much for the inspiration. Let's see how it goes!0
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slimzandra wrote: »Here is another personal experiment about eating 5,800 calories on LCHF that supports what @FIT_Goat is saying. End result after eating 5,800 calories on LCHF=very little weight gain vs weight gain with same calories of carbs.
Thought since there were already so many great links about this topic, I'd add this one as well in the Anti-counting column.
http://myhealthlogics.com/what-happens-if-you-eat-5800-calories-daily-on-an-lchf-diet/
Just to balance out the counting, there is the pro-counting link.
http://www.acaloriecounter.com/blog/why-am-i-not-losing-weight/
I think repeating the same thing over and over doesn't merit as convincing an argument as actually doing a diet experiment. I'll leave it there on both to count or not to count.
Thanks for the link 5800 calorie link. While I do not do that many the summary fits my experience of maintaining at 200 for the past year.
Summary
"There is a difference between overeating and overeating.
When eating bad carbohydrates it’s easy to gain weight quickly. You’ll get plenty of the fat-storing hormone insulin in your blood.
It’s generally hard to gain weight on an LCHF diet. It’s even difficult to eat too much food, as you then usually have to eat more than you want. Even if you force down large amounts of LCHF-food, against your will, the result is usually as it was for Feltham. It’s a constant struggle and weight gain will likely be modest.
Overweight people eating as much as they want on an LCHF diet will typically lose weight."2 -
Yeah. I am trying really hard to not say, "I told you so" to someone on a keto chat that I participate in. For weeks, he had told me that he needed to count calories to lose. He told me that he would gain, if he didn't count. Earlier this week, he decided to go on a bulk (primarily wants to put on muscle) while remaining in keto.
Half of his messages since then have been about how hard it is to eat all these calories, how he isn't hungry but he needs to eat, and how he's struggling to stay above his TDEE in order to put on weight.
It only sounds easy and fun to gain weight on low-carb. It's actually pretty hard unless you're underweight.1 -
lisawinning4losing wrote: »CICO worked for me in the short term, but ultimately led to the all too familiar roller coaster. I hate having to restrict food. That kind of life only lasts for so long. I'm going to up my "calorie goal" to 1,800 a day, which is supposed to be maintenance for me right now, and have faith that low carb will work. Thank you so much for the inspiration. Let's see how it goes!
@lisawinning4losing Are you expecting to lose eating your maintenance calories? Can you please keep us updated on your results. I have been thinking about upping my calories to my goal weight maintenance calories..0 -
No problem! I'll keep you posted. 1
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That's an awesome video, thanks for sharing. I think it's well worth the watch, but, for those who don't have time or patience, this is basically an abbreviated version of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U36XJaETbh8 0 -
Great links and video. Thanks for sharing @slimzandra and @lisawinning4losing.1
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Thanks to all of you for your comments. Newbie on LCHF (10 weeks), and stalled at the initial 4.5 kilos (9lbs) loss. In desperation, I began to count calories on MFP, but you have all made me realise that it's futile to count cals, and I had better only take notice of the carb grams. Will anyone dare to suggest a Carb limit for a newbie? My levels have ranged from 30-80 grams per day, so far.
Fit Goat, thanks for the encouragement to 'trust my body's instincts' (as I did when a very skinny child).
I'd like to inform you all that there's a noticeable improvement in 'body-texture', flesh is firmer, and skin feels more like a baby's flesh to touch. That's wonderful for a 73 year-old female, who was drooping noticeably.
Nothing is going to deter me from continuing on LCHF.......... I'd just like to lose some more weight!
Jeanieneni2 -
Yay to all of you who can do a non calorie counting keto. I cannot. I did this for 2 years and put on almost 20kg (44pounds) now counting ive moved 12 (27) of them in 2 months which is huge for me.
I think pushing of no counting is not productive as it will not always work for everyone.
People will figure out if no counting works for them.3 -
I've done LCHF a few times in the past, always with good results, without calorie counting. I tend to adjust well to Ketosis and as I've got a lot of fat to burn so there is an ample supply of fuel! However, this time I am incorporating an extensive training regime into my program and have been calorie counting - not for the sake of the food I'm eating which is extremely low carb with an approx. 80/20 split between fat and protein - but so that I can track my inputs against my outputs and make sure that I'm getting 'enough' exercise on each day. It's a bit of a crude measure of course but I find it quite useful, but don't get hung up on what the numbers actually are!1
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jeanieneni wrote: »Thanks to all of you for your comments. Newbie on LCHF (10 weeks), and stalled at the initial 4.5 kilos (9lbs) loss. In desperation, I began to count calories on MFP, but you have all made me realise that it's futile to count cals, and I had better only take notice of the carb grams. Will anyone dare to suggest a Carb limit for a newbie? My levels have ranged from 30-80 grams per day, so far.
Fit Goat, thanks for the encouragement to 'trust my body's instincts' (as I did when a very skinny child).
I'd like to inform you all that there's a noticeable improvement in 'body-texture', flesh is firmer, and skin feels more like a baby's flesh to touch. That's wonderful for a 73 year-old female, who was drooping noticeably.
Nothing is going to deter me from continuing on LCHF.......... I'd just like to lose some more weight!
Jeanieneni
I suggest a reframing of your mindset. You're losing nearly a pound a week. That's fantastic! Keep on keeping on and remember to look at the other benefits you're experiencing.1 -
this is my first go at keto, I've done atkins many many many times in the past and never left the induction phase. I never counted calories just stayed strict low carb or so I thought. Though I did do well with atkins I never reached my ideal weight and eventually would plateau for months which would lead to trying something different which would lead to eating carbs and the cycle would repeat. When I started keto I started tracking everything including my blood sugar because I wanted to see the big picture of what really is keeping me fat, were too many carbs creeping in because I wasn't tracking? I know I was eating too much protein on atkins. It my not be for everybody but tracking is works for me, makes me feel like I'm in control and I'm down 30 pound in 3 1/2 months.2
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We all count one way or another. I weight myself daily to track net CICO. Yesterday blood pressure was up 30 points over last month. Over the holidays I started eating tangerines so I stopped eating them yesterday to see if blood pressure and slight temple pain will resolve.
Seems this tangerine effect is known in Germany. Others associate fructose with these side effects.
Even a slight headache after no headaches for two years on LCHF was stressing me as to the cause.
Eating on cruise control fails sooner or later in my case it seems.2 -
I always count, doesn't matter how I eat, if I don't count, I overeat.5
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I typically count. I'm trying not to count for a while with a few exceptions particularly around trying new recipes or eating at recipes. I would have no idea how much I'm consuming if I have never ate it before. But for my typical tried and true recipes, my meals day in and day out then I'm just trusting that I'm choosing good portion sizes and that I won't overeat. So I'm going to do this method for another few weeks and we will see what the scales look like.2
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Hello all! I never really paid much attention to calories when doing LCHF since I mostly eat this WOE for T2D management. In the beginning, the weight just fell off with not additional effort other than keeping my carbs at less than 40 net per day.I lost about 20 pounds from May to August. Then in August I began to incorporate fitness (kettlebell) which I love btw, but my hunger increased. So I found a TDEE calculator and increased my calories from a 1200 to 1400. I didnt lose weight but I did lose inches (fat). Then my work schedule went crazy and I no longer have any time for fitness
ok I'm exaggerating but it's a been a struggle to find dedicated time for fitness. So I went back to a pretty sedendary life but I did not lower my calories since frankly I enjoyed eating at that place lol. I still lost an additional 5 pounds from Sept to Jan but I decided to see if by staying LC (of course) and eating at a deficit might lose a little faster. Im on week 2 of this experiment and I have lost 3 lbs. My hunger is satiated due to LCHF and serious mind over matter. I did realize that some times I ate out of fear of being super hungry later on not truly being hungry. I will continue like this until my body levels out again. All I imagine is my body happily chomping away at my internal fat haha 3 -
@FIT_Goat, anything against trackng protein?
I'm not opposed to tracking; I am opposed to choosing an arbitrary number and restricting to stay below it. If you like tracking and want or need the data, that wouldn't really contradict anything I have written. I use "counting calories" as it's the common way to refer to conscious calorie restriction. You can even count calories, if you want, as long as you aren't using that number to cut yourself off when you would otherwise eat.
I would only worry about protein if I was concerned about being low. I also tend to "do my own thing" when it comes to protein. I pretty much ignore the calories from it when looking at calories. It's not like we use protein for energy. It's a building block. I essentially would only worry about fat if I was counting calories. The error from ignoring what few calories might come from protein is tiny.
I know others are concerned about high protein. I don't think that should be general advice though. If someone is diabetic or otherwise is likely to respond poorly to high protein, they might want to track it and see if it is a problem for them. Then again, I'm not "keto" even though I eat fewer carbs than they do. I don't worry about excess protein lowering ketone levels.5 -
Well I started LCHF in Aug. after I had stopped losing with CICO method. I still log everything, but it is a record of what I am doing.
If I go over on calories, I REALLY DON'T CARE. I want to know how much fat and protein I am getting. Eating this way, I often have a hard time hitting the 1000 cals. other days, I might get to around 2000, I am short and older. With this WOE, I am not hungry all the freak'n time like before. I feel great 99% of the time and have more energy. If I miss logging a day of food, I really don't care anymore. I just pick up where I left off. I am losing slowly, but that is okay because I feel so good, while I am losing.3 -
At what carb intake does this rule apply? Does this apply only to a ketogenic diet or will be effective at moderate low carb level? Im keeping to 30-max 40 gms carbs per day. Ive only been on for a week and feel pretty good but not like im in ketosis. Thanks!0
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shanstilts wrote: »At what carb intake does this rule apply? Does this apply only to a ketogenic diet or will be effective at moderate low carb level? Im keeping to 30-max 40 gms carbs per day. Ive only been on for a week and feel pretty good but not like im in ketosis. Thanks!
It's not a rule exactly.
The idea is that you reduce carbs as low as you need to in order to prevent cravings and stop any desire to eat when not hungry.
Then, you don't need to count calories because you're only eating when hungry and you're not getting false hunger signals related to sweet cravings or habit eating. If you only eat when hungry, you won't overeat. But each of us has a certain limit for carbs that we stay below in order to keep those false hunger signals away. This is also often true for eating low carb sweet things as well.
It's not that calories suddenly don't count.... you simply don't have to count them. IF you only eat when hungry, and until not hungry anymore.
Limiting calories that you or some calculator decided on by going hungry for the sole purpose of not going over that number isn't sustainable long term. Certainly not forever. It's a better strategy to learn to eat in such a way that you naturally don't overeat without having to count anything.6 -
Ty, @Sunny_Bunny_ 1
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