Keto Flu?
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gotblues66
Posts: 58 Member
Hi. I'm new here. Male 5,6" started at about 158, now at about 154 lbs. Weight training 3 days per week. On keto to lose some belly fat, but hoping to keep muscle loss to a minimum. I am on week 3 at a 70/25/5 macro ratio. I have had "the runs" daily for pretty much the whole time, or at least since day 3 or so. It seems to be once in the afternoon after my first meal (I am also intermittent fasting) which is usually a whey protein shake, or occasionally after my 1st solid meal mid afternoon. I assumed it was part of the low carb adjustment, or what they call keto flu, and that it would go away. But it actually isn't, and seems to be getting worse instead of better. I am drinking a fair amount of water (8+ cups/day), trying to keep my sodium up (mostly Himalayan pink sea salt), started taking the following supplements a few days ago: magnesium, potassium, fiber, and a probiotic. It hasn't stopped the runs yet. Starting to get concerned. Also my sleep has gone downhill. I feel energy at night and an elevated heart rate. I assumed it is just the increase in my metabolism- the fat burning machine. Any thoughts or advice?
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Make sure to take the magnesium at night before bed, if you don't split it and take two doses. Fiber can create the opposite reaction, so just be aware. Having no gallbladder, I alternate between loose and harder to pass stools. In the "runs" are you passing any solid food particles? Do you have gas, particularly smelly waste, or acidic residue when wiping? All of those things are indicative of low stomach acid, which can be helped with supplements. Triggering a waste dump within 30 minutes to an hour after a meal is also a sign of poor digestion.
One of the odd things I did that helped was add a probiotic, as you mention, but also diatomaceous earth stirred into water (google for articles of what it does) just before I left work.
Another combination that gets me is any type of coconut/MCT oil and/or any type of sodium and/or any type of vinegar. The combination of one or more of those products can trigger major bathroom drama. Coffee or excessive caffeine do that to me, too...
And any time I drop out of keto levels, then go back to it, I end up with the runs for at least a week...
The sleep thing, most folks manage with magnesium, resetting circadium rhythms with D3/K2 only in AM and using light therapy (specific times), supplements like melatonin/l-theanine, using light blocking windows, bluelight filters on electronics, setting up new routines to get you in bed earlier, having whatever carbs you are having in your evening meal (or the highest portion of them then), using waking alarms that track sleep, etc.
Many folks note more vivid and odd dreams when first adapting to keto, lack of sleep, etc. On the elevated heart rate, how much elevated. Oh, on the weight loss, needs to be minimum 4 hours before you go to bed, the end of the routine... If I think of more, I'll add to this later. That's off the top of my head, @dsydorko1 -
Great tip, did not know that. Thanks.KnitOrMiss wrote: »Make sure to take the magnesium at night before bed, if you don't split it and take two doses.
It's really loose some particles I think (it's usually dark in color, cloudy, and hard to tell, didn't feel like looking too closely) and, pardon the TMI, I am...ahem...I think the unofficial term is sharting...which is really unusual for me. Even when I had c-diff about a year ago, that didn't happen. And at it's worst I was running to the loo about 20+ times per day. I don't really notice any worse smell than usual. And no gas except for those few backfires, lol.KnitOrMiss wrote: »In the "runs" are you passing any solid food particles? Do you have gas, particularly smelly waste, or acidic residue when wiping? All of those things are indicative of low stomach acid, which can be helped with supplements. Triggering a waste dump within 30 minutes to an hour after a meal is also a sign of poor digestion.KnitOrMiss wrote: »One of the odd things I did that helped was add a probiotic, as you mention, but also diatomaceous earth stirred into water (google for articles of what it does) just before I left work.
Another combination that gets me is any type of coconut/MCT oil and/or any type of sodium and/or any type of vinegar. The combination of one or more of those products can trigger major bathroom drama. Coffee or excessive caffeine do that to me, too...
And any time I drop out of keto levels, then go back to it, I end up with the runs for at least a week...
Good tip on the diatomaceous earth, I'm a bit leary of it but I do have some, so we'll see. I'll keep taking the probiotic and eating my homemade raw fermented kimchi. I am drinking strong coffee black in the morning during my fast. I actually start my day with warm water and fresh squeezed lemon juice. But I do put 1 TBSP MCT oil into my noon smoothie. So I wonder about that and can try playing with it. It is a bit reassuring that your can last over 1 week, so maybe I'll ride it out a while longer. I am completely capable of keeping this diet up for as long as needed, and I'm not really craving carbs that badly. But I am grossed out by all the meat and fat. It just doesn't feel right. And of course my convenience meals are limited to pork rinds, cheese, and sausages or pepperoni sticks because at some point in the day I'm usually maxed out on my carbs but still need protein and fat. I may never be able to even smell a pork rind ever again.KnitOrMiss wrote: »The sleep thing, most folks manage with magnesium, resetting circadium rhythms with D3/K2 only in AM and using light therapy (specific times), supplements like melatonin/l-theanine, using light blocking windows, bluelight filters on electronics, setting up new routines to get you in bed earlier, having whatever carbs you are having in your evening meal (or the highest portion of them then), using waking alarms that track sleep, etc.
Many folks note more vivid and odd dreams when first adapting to keto, lack of sleep, etc. On the elevated heart rate, how much elevated. Oh, on the weight loss, needs to be minimum 4 hours before you go to bed, the end of the routine...
Do you mean one shouldn't eat anything within 4 hours of bedtime? My schedule makes that tough to do. I finish work, go to the gym and don't get back until 730ish then don't get supper out of the way until 8 or 830. I do have melatonin, and will switch the magnesium to bedtime. I'm already with you on light blocking and blue light filtering.
Thanks so much, any more input is welcome!!!
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@dsydorko I can certainly appreciate how those symptoms are concerning. As for the bathroom issues.... on their own it is not uncommon for them to last into the two week range. Depends on your body and how it adjusts.
Adding to that the magnesium, if I miss mine for 3 or 4 days then I have to start back with one pill and work my way back up to my dosage otherwise.... well... And as KnitOrMiss said, fiber can actually encourage the problem Not saying it is here, but something to keep in mind. And... during the first few weeks back on the wagon it is really not uncommon for me to "NEED" the bathroom shortly after my first meal of the day, no matter the state of the "movement". It just feels like eating "woke up" my system.
My personal experience is that when I have the keto flu (because for a year I really sucked at sticking with it) There's usually at least 3 or for days where I'm exhausted all day but for some reason get a good ol burst of energy just around bed time and/or wake up tonnes of time during the night and feel I'm just starting to get a good sleep when the alarm goes off. During that time I also have to be careful with caffeine for some reason as it will trigger heart palpitations...but only during keto flu. Weird eh?
KnitOrMiss has much more scientific answers but hopefully my anecdotal answers at least provide a little reassurance that what you're experiencing is not completely unheard of.
Oh and also as encouragement.... my partner (The Beast) switched to LCHF just under 2 years ago. He dropped his training by half and has put on about 17lbs of muscle in that time. Something he struggled to do endlessly with twice as much effort. So all that to say, at the very least you shouldn't "lose" muscle.
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Thanks gsp90x, the info is very encouraging. I'm currently running a calorie deficit, and after my weekend rest days I was not feeling well yesterday and today, low energy, not much of an appetite so I am waayyyy under my calorie target. Almost like a semi-fast. But 4 days straight with no weight training, low cals, making me concerned about that muscle loss. Great to hear about The Beast, but I bet he's running a calorie surplus. I was thinking that once I've achieved leaning out I will start to turn up the protein and carbs, maybe transition to something like a 40/40/20 ratio- if that even can keep me in ketosis- not sure. At that point also increase calories and workload at the gym.
I can relate about tossing and turning all night then finally getting into a good sleep before the alarm goes off. Very frustrating. I try not to have any caffeine past 4 PM. I'll ride this out a while longer.0 -
First answer - I meant workouts not right before bed unless you're doing yoga...no workouts within 4 hours of bed if possible. Sometimes eating right before bed can blunt the edge of the keto-mares... Will respond to the rest in line.1
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It's really loose some particles I think (it's usually dark in color, cloudy, and hard to tell, didn't feel like looking too closely) and, pardon the TMI, I am...ahem...I think the unofficial term is sharting...which is really unusual for me. Even when I had c-diff about a year ago, that didn't happen. And at it's worst I was running to the loo about 20+ times per day. I don't really notice any worse smell than usual. And no gas except for those few backfires, lol.KnitOrMiss wrote: »In the "runs" are you passing any solid food particles? Do you have gas, particularly smelly waste, or acidic residue when wiping? All of those things are indicative of low stomach acid, which can be helped with supplements. Triggering a waste dump within 30 minutes to an hour after a meal is also a sign of poor digestion.
If you seem to have an oily residue, looks like when you wash a pan after cooking - or anything floats after going? Because that is indicative not properly digesting and absorbing your dietary fats. Since you mention having had c-diff, your gut bacteria may have been severely compromised in that treatment. It may take some fairly intensive probiotic and prebiotic treatments to bring you back to balance. Sadly, the statement, "Never trust a fart," is very common in keto circles... And running to the bathroom that frequently when not just urinating is also possible and adjustment of dietary intake... It's really a very individual thing. At this point, is it annoying...or are you one step away from heading to A&E for it?
nobunplease.com/diarrhea-low-carb-keto-diet/ This link may also help you troubleshoot the issue at hand.
**Oh, and I forgot to ask, what version of magnesium are you taking? If you're taking magnesium oxide or a citrate that isn't buffered and chelated, the magnesium alone could trigger this issue.KnitOrMiss wrote: »One of the odd things I did that helped was add a probiotic, as you mention, but also diatomaceous earth stirred into water (google for articles of what it does) just before I left work.
Another combination that gets me is any type of coconut/MCT oil and/or any type of sodium and/or any type of vinegar. The combination of one or more of those products can trigger major bathroom drama. Coffee or excessive caffeine do that to me, too...
And any time I drop out of keto levels, then go back to it, I end up with the runs for at least a week...
Good tip on the diatomaceous earth, I'm a bit leary of it but I do have some, so we'll see. I'll keep taking the probiotic and eating my homemade raw fermented kimchi. I am drinking strong coffee black in the morning during my fast. I actually start my day with warm water and fresh squeezed lemon juice. But I do put 1 TBSP MCT oil into my noon smoothie. So I wonder about that and can try playing with it. It is a bit reassuring that your can last over 1 week, so maybe I'll ride it out a while longer. I am completely capable of keeping this diet up for as long as needed, and I'm not really craving carbs that badly. But I am grossed out by all the meat and fat. It just doesn't feel right. And of course my convenience meals are limited to pork rinds, cheese, and sausages or pepperoni sticks because at some point in the day I'm usually maxed out on my carbs but still need protein and fat. I may never be able to even smell a pork rind ever again.
As long as your DE is food grade, there's no major risk aside from dehydration if you're already low on fluids. It does pull a good deal of liquid out with it...
Here are some links on the whys of DE. https://draxe.com/diatomaceous-earth/
https://diatomaceousearth.com/diatomaceous-earth-health-benefits/
globalhealingcenter.com/natural-health/5-benefits-of-diatomaceous-earth/
I was very leery as well, but if you've any lingering damage from the c-diff, this can help alongside the probiotics to really balance everything up to help with full healing. The Kimchi is a great addition as well. The strong black coffee will stimulate the bowel - via caffeine - which is why it is commonly called "nature's exlax." I personally cannot drink coffee, no many times how I've tried, or I get sharting without warning followed by immediate and complete downloads, which is not good at the office when you're already en route to the loo.
With the warm water and fresh lemon juice, have you ever added fresh ginger slices? It seems to be the most common "formula" I've encountered... I keep forgetting to defrost my ginger, so I haven't tried this yet.
As long as the coffee is 4 hours apart from the MCT, there shouldn't be much conflict there. I would just see if there are any other ingredients in the smoothie that might amplify this. Otherwise, unless you jumped into the deep in with 1 TBSP MCT without building up at all, it *might* be a factor, though I would hope by now you would have leveled out...
If you are grossed out by the meat and fat, it might be time to switch up the combination of your meals. Leaner lunch meats or sliced meats can be spread with cream cheese and wrapped around a pickle instead of sausage and pepperoni sticks. Or you can bake shredded cheese with sliced pepperoni or sausage (with or without low carb sauce) just on parchment paper or a silicone baking sheet to make it more like pizza - and then add grated Parmesan on top to soak up some of the obvious melted fats. Remember, too, that carbs are a limit, protein is a range to maintain lean muscle mass, and fats are filled in only to satiety. Particularly in the beginning, the body will fill in any dietary fat gaps from stored body fat, burned for fuel.
Since your diary isn't open, would you give me an idea of what else your intake is comprised of as far as which carbs you're eating, etc.? Pork rinds dipped in homemade ranch dip (sour cream mixed with ranch mix - packaged or homemade) make them far less porky. They can be used as a nacho base...or ground up to use in place of breadcrumbs in may recipes... My convenience meals were often a combination of meats/cheeses/pickles, and macadamia nuts - which have a great carb/fat profile. Walnuts and pecans are preferred by some, but I often have a sensitivity to both, so I stick with macadamia nuts... I also made the "cream cheese clouds" which can be frozen, then taken with you in a bag. 4+ hours later, they are still generally held together enough to eat - or could be eaten with a spoon...
Also, many folks are able to increase their carbs and still maintain a level of nutritional ketosis after adapting better...some as far as 50 grams without exercise or upwards if the carbs are consumed immediately before workouts. Dave Asprey, Jimmy Moore, and other keto advocates often suggest finding your own carb threshold through glucose or other testing.KnitOrMiss wrote: »The sleep thing, most folks manage with magnesium, resetting circadium rhythms with D3/K2 only in AM and using light therapy (specific times), supplements like melatonin/l-theanine, using light blocking windows, bluelight filters on electronics, setting up new routines to get you in bed earlier, having whatever carbs you are having in your evening meal (or the highest portion of them then), using waking alarms that track sleep, etc.
Many folks note more vivid and odd dreams when first adapting to keto, lack of sleep, etc. On the elevated heart rate, how much elevated. Oh, on the weight loss, needs to be minimum 4 hours before you go to bed, the end of the routine...
Do you mean one shouldn't eat anything within 4 hours of bedtime? My schedule makes that tough to do. I finish work, go to the gym and don't get back until 730ish then don't get supper out of the way until 8 or 830. I do have melatonin, and will switch the magnesium to bedtime. I'm already with you on light blocking and blue light filtering.
Thanks so much, any more input is welcome!!!
As I said in my short answer, my brain autocorrected away from what I was trying to say... Workouts should be at least 2 hours before bed, closer to 4 hours away if possible. There is an afterburn affect after a workout than can boost energy, especially if you work out in a fasted state... Melatonin with me never worked. The best thing to do for circadian rhythms is to get a burst of natural or very bright light upon waking, then again around 1-2 pm, for 15 minutes or so each time if possible. This naturally increases your cortisol, which starts to fall after several hours. When you then boost it at the lunch time, it naturally falls enough by bedtime for natural melatonin production to kick in. Taking a supplement can help or hinder this process, depending on your own chemistry. Melatonin helps you fall asleep, and L-Theanine helps you stay asleep. Dave Asprey (The BulletProof Executive) has one of the better lists of supplements to aid sleep quality, but it adds in things to be careful with, like GABA (an amino acid) and others... The magnesium type matters too. As I said, Magnesium Oxide is the devil. Magnesium citrate, when not a buffered or chelated form, is actually what they use to clean out your backside before a colonoscopy.
forum.bulletproof.com/discussion/2078/bulletproof-magnesium-thread This is one of the better links explaining about the different types of magnesium. Different folks also need different doses. When I was taking Thorne Research Magnesium Citrate, Chelated, I took 135 mg capsules 1-2 times a day. I switched to a Magnesium Glycinate, and I rotate between 400-800 mg daily, split into an AM and a PM dose, but I don't get the sleepy side effects from it generally.
And you are welcome. Happy to pass on anything I've learned or gleaned from others.1 -
@KnitOrMiss Wow, thanks so much for all the great information! First I was unaware of the diaries being open or locked, but as for the carbs, 20g doesn't take much to hit. I get 4 - 6 with each of my two protein shakes. One example would be unsweetened coconut beverage, 2 TBSP heavy whip cream, 1 TBSP MCT oil, 1 scoop vanilla protein powder, 1 tsp matcha green tea powder, 1 tsp spirulina/chlorella combo powder, a couple ice cubes, then blended. Yes the MCT is often within an hour or two of the coffee. The rest of my carbs would usually come from veggies, dressings or dips, although last night I had some fresh raspberries with cottage cheese. I do factor in the fiber.
I'll keep up with the probiotics. C-diff can have lasting, even lifetime, effects. Although I feel fully recovered with no relapses since last spring, I realize I may never be out of the woods.
Noted on the no workouts close to bed time. Mine are usually done around 4 hours prior to bedtime, as my schedule allows.
Thanks for the food ideas. I am starting to see some great keto "recipes" out there. The main thing is that they need to be quick and simple for me, I only cook a couple times a week unless it is something like fried eggs on a slice of ham or easy stuff like that. I can't wait to try zucchini lasagna or keto chicken parm (another use for those pork rinds, lol). Also looking forward to a buttered steak, mmmmmm. One thing that surprised me is how a lettuce wrapped burger, or ordering pizza on some hot deal and just eating the toppings, are much better than I would have imagined.
I have added ginger to the lemon water, when I've had a cold or flu. It's quite good too, but I'd be tempted to add honey which is a no-no in ketoville. Could use stevia, but not the same. For flu season I used to make a Total KO tea with lemon, ginger, turmeric, honey, cinnamon and a pinch of cayenne pepper. Pretty good stuff.
I also need to avoid artificial sweeteners. Unfortunately the last protein powders I bought (for a great deal, New Zealand grass fed whey, in 5 lb tubs) have sucralose. Next time I'll spend more for their 0 carb isolate version sweetened with stevia. But it'll take me months to finish what I have.
The magnesium I have is Innotech ionic liquid magnesium. It's from GNC.
P.S. I am having a hard time finding Macadamia nuts in the stores I go to, wonder if there has been a crop shortage or something. That said, I'm almost hesitant to buy them due to the high price and the fact that they still have carbs, with nuts, if I can only eat a handful, I'm better off avoiding them altogether. It's like popcorn for me.
Thanks again for all your help!!!
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RE: magnesium...
Magnesium Ascorbate - A good source of magnesium and vitamin C. Can cause some loose stools. Taken before bed.
I hear you on sucralose. It will complicate any gut impacts from the C-Diff and/or antibiotics used to kick it...
For nuts, if you decide to explore, get raw or roasted UNsalted nuts. They're easier to portion control that way. With raw nuts, soak to neutralize the anti-nutrients that make some folks ill. I haven't bought macadamias in a while, but they were good for an emergency in the car or bag snack for me. I'd try to include pecans or walnuts more regularly....fewer carbs, too.
dietdoctor.com has some good graphics under the low carb tab that show comparison of carbs.
And yes, I know how easy it is to get to 20 carbs...I was just looking for possible swap ideas I could suggest. And I hands down agree on the awesomeness of a bunless burger and crustless pizza!
Oh, and if you are looking to control insulin or blood sugars at all, you might examine your protein sources, as well. Many of them are insulinogenic... @cstehansen posted this link in our related group that covers all the types of slow or low carbing... https://docmuscles.com/2017/01/22/11-proteins-that-spike-insulin/
Here's the LINK to join the other group that's more active, if you're interested. There's some overlap between here and there, but many on each side that aren't in both groups...
You are SO very welcome. I enjoy giving back to honor those who helped me when I started out on this path...0
