Not liking this LCHF Diet, no sir...
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codename_steve wrote: »cstehansen wrote: »codename_steve wrote: »
Thanks for the reference. What I gathered from it is that I shouldn't be worried about lack of carbs effecting my performance. But what about lack of calories? Does fat-adaptation mean that muscle cannibalism isn't an issue if I'm not getting enough overall fuel? (If this is thread-derailing I can start a new one to discuss this
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From what I understand your body will only protein (ie muscle) for energy if you are very sick, most of us have enough stored fat that the body will l pull from.0 -
codename_steve wrote: »cstehansen wrote: »codename_steve wrote: »I've been feeling this way lately too, for about two weeks. My thing is: I'm marathon training. So running 30-40 miles a week and only able to manage getting down 1400-1600 calories (TDEE should be around 2000 and I'm only wanting to lose the last 5ish pounds). I get scared that if I don't eat enough, I won't be able to fuel my training.
Check out this study before you get too concerned:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340
Thanks for the reference. What I gathered from it is that I shouldn't be worried about lack of carbs effecting my performance. But what about lack of calories? Does fat-adaptation mean that muscle cannibalism isn't an issue if I'm not getting enough overall fuel? (If this is thread-derailing I can start a new one to discuss this)
From what I understand your body will only protein (ie muscle) for energy if you are very sick, most of us have enough stored fat that the body will l pull from.1 -
@cstehansen Thats Awesome advice! Thank You. I will definitely try that before my next treadmill run. I have found that my brain and body say - "you can keep going", but legs usually end up saying STOP - STOP - STOP at the one hour mark.1
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codename_steve wrote: »cstehansen wrote: »codename_steve wrote: »I've been feeling this way lately too, for about two weeks. My thing is: I'm marathon training. So running 30-40 miles a week and only able to manage getting down 1400-1600 calories (TDEE should be around 2000 and I'm only wanting to lose the last 5ish pounds). I get scared that if I don't eat enough, I won't be able to fuel my training.
Check out this study before you get too concerned:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340
Thanks for the reference. What I gathered from it is that I shouldn't be worried about lack of carbs effecting my performance. But what about lack of calories? Does fat-adaptation mean that muscle cannibalism isn't an issue if I'm not getting enough overall fuel? (If this is thread-derailing I can start a new one to discuss this)
What I think you will find is although you may not be hungry enough to eat all the calories you think you need right now, your body is smart enough to give you the hunger queues when you actually need more fuel.
In order for your body to start eating away at your muscle (protein), it will (almost) always be converting it to glucose via gluconeogenesis. This means as long as fat (ketones) are your body's preferred energy source, you have very little chance of losing muscle.
If you are down to 5% body fat (first hooray for you), then you can start thinking about not getting enough calories. However, even at 10% body fat, which is super lean, a 150 lb person would have 15 lbs of fat. One pound = about 448 grams. One gram can provide 9 Kcalories of energy meaning that 15 lbs of fat is worth over 60,000 kcals or more than 30 times what you have calculated you need per day.
In general, our bodies are smarter than we are when it comes to its fuel needs. Unless there is an underlying metabolic issue, your body will not let you starve by way of lack of hunger signals.4 -
You know, over 4 years of under 20g carbs a day and I have not had a single day where I do not want to eat all of my calories. Keto has allowed me to get my hunger under control, and I can certainly go from lunch to dinner now without feeling crazy hungry but I dance right on the edge of my calorie limit every single day. And I could eat more, oh yes I could. The difference being I can now stop - whereas when I was eating carbs I couldn't.3
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@cstehansen Thats Awesome advice! Thank You. I will definitely try that before my next treadmill run. I have found that my brain and body say - "you can keep going", but legs usually end up saying STOP - STOP - STOP at the one hour mark.
If I understand the process correctly, by switching to ketones from glucose, you are eliminating the lactic acid build-up in the muscles which is why the other benefit I have found is not having that same level of muscle soreness after running for about an hour.
There is a show on History Channel called "Superhumans" hosted by Stan Lee (the comic book creator). One of the people he profiled was this guy who could run for hours without having lactic acid build up and without having the same fatigue symptoms most people have. After learning what I have and with what I have experienced, I think this was more a result of his diet than him having some genetic mutation. Here is the link to that episode if you are interested.
http://www.history.com/shows/stan-lees-superhumans/season-1/episode-3
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If this is about interest in food, as opposed to interest in you eating food, it will definitely come back. I was a foodie before, seeking out great restaurants and chefs and incredible food combinations. After I got past the food ambivalence stage (about 3 weeks for me) I'm now still a foodie, seeking out ways of working with keto foods that give maximum flavour, sensations. I'm working my way thru my Michel Roux cookbook and finding all the recipes which can be made with little or no alterations. I don't really care about keto pizza, but I've cooked a smash it out of the park Boeuf Bourginon and my Thai green curry is superb. The difference is in portion size. Very small compared to the old carb days. We just don't want or need as much food if it's nutrient dense. I'm still figuring that one out.2
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cstehansen wrote: »codename_steve wrote: »cstehansen wrote: »codename_steve wrote: »I've been feeling this way lately too, for about two weeks. My thing is: I'm marathon training. So running 30-40 miles a week and only able to manage getting down 1400-1600 calories (TDEE should be around 2000 and I'm only wanting to lose the last 5ish pounds). I get scared that if I don't eat enough, I won't be able to fuel my training.
Check out this study before you get too concerned:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340
Thanks for the reference. What I gathered from it is that I shouldn't be worried about lack of carbs effecting my performance. But what about lack of calories? Does fat-adaptation mean that muscle cannibalism isn't an issue if I'm not getting enough overall fuel? (If this is thread-derailing I can start a new one to discuss this)
What I think you will find is although you may not be hungry enough to eat all the calories you think you need right now, your body is smart enough to give you the hunger queues when you actually need more fuel.
In order for your body to start eating away at your muscle (protein), it will (almost) always be converting it to glucose via gluconeogenesis. This means as long as fat (ketones) are your body's preferred energy source, you have very little chance of losing muscle.
If you are down to 5% body fat (first hooray for you), then you can start thinking about not getting enough calories. However, even at 10% body fat, which is super lean, a 150 lb person would have 15 lbs of fat. One pound = about 448 grams. One gram can provide 9 Kcalories of energy meaning that 15 lbs of fat is worth over 60,000 kcals or more than 30 times what you have calculated you need per day.
In general, our bodies are smarter than we are when it comes to its fuel needs. Unless there is an underlying metabolic issue, your body will not let you starve by way of lack of hunger signals.
Thanks for the clarification!! I feel better about things now
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EbonyDahlia wrote: »You know, over 4 years of under 20g carbs a day and I have not had a single day where I do not want to eat all of my calories. Keto has allowed me to get my hunger under control, and I can certainly go from lunch to dinner now without feeling crazy hungry but I dance right on the edge of my calorie limit every single day. And I could eat more, oh yes I could. The difference being I can now stop - whereas when I was eating carbs I couldn't.
I know you have mentioned this before which made me think about something Dr Nally said. He says he is very IR and after thinking he was eating keto for 5+ years, when he actually tested his blood, he was not in ketosis. He said he had to take exogenous ketones to maintain ketosis, and when he did, he finally experienced some of the benefits he had heard others talking about.
I know the more IR you are, the harder it is to get into and maintain ketosis. Generally speaking it means your body is more prone to converting protein to glucose, so keeping protein lower may be needed.
I am not sold on taking exogenous ketones. I don't think there is enough research on them yet, and I think they have primarily been marketed to those who want the benefits of keto without eating keto which I don't think will work.
I don't know if you have done in testing of your blood ketones or not. The meters and strips are not cheap. That might be a worthwhile investment, though.
If you don't want to or can't test blood ketones, you may want to try an n=1 experiment of going down near the bottom of the needed protein range and possibly going near 0 carb for a few weeks to see if that makes a difference.
For reference on protein minimums, you can see this:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/how-much-protein-is-excessive/
Pull quote:
"In 1985, the WHO reviewed studies of daily obligatory losses of nitrogen, and found that an average is 0.61 g/kg/day (total). Presumable, the diet should replace (roughly) this 0.61 g/kg/day being lost. Remember, this average is for normal healthy people, not people losing muscle or otherwise sick. So the international group recommended that normal healthy people should get roughly 0.6g/kg/day. In order to make sure everybody was covered, the WHO added 25% (2 standard deviations) above the mean to get 0.75 g/kg/day which sometimes gets rounded up to 0.8 g/kg/day. In other words, 97.5% of the healthy general population loses less than this 0.75 g/kg/day of amino acids. This is not a low standard. This is a very, very high standard of protein intake."
Just eating lower carb, even if not going into ketosis, will help with controlling hunger due to things like lower insulin response, protein and fat taking longer to digest and empty from the stomach, etc. which is what you have found.2 -
cstehansen wrote: »@cstehansen Thats Awesome advice! Thank You. I will definitely try that before my next treadmill run. I have found that my brain and body say - "you can keep going", but legs usually end up saying STOP - STOP - STOP at the one hour mark.
If I understand the process correctly, by switching to ketones from glucose, you are eliminating the lactic acid build-up in the muscles which is why the other benefit I have found is not having that same level of muscle soreness after running for about an hour.
There is a show on History Channel called "Superhumans" hosted by Stan Lee (the comic book creator). One of the people he profiled was this guy who could run for hours without having lactic acid build up and without having the same fatigue symptoms most people have. After learning what I have and with what I have experienced, I think this was more a result of his diet than him having some genetic mutation. Here is the link to that episode if you are interested.
http://www.history.com/shows/stan-lees-superhumans/season-1/episode-3
@cstehansen - I think the lack of lactic acid buildup ALONE would be worth getting fat adapted!!!! Oh, my!!!!cstehansen wrote: »EbonyDahlia wrote: »You know, over 4 years of under 20g carbs a day and I have not had a single day where I do not want to eat all of my calories. Keto has allowed me to get my hunger under control, and I can certainly go from lunch to dinner now without feeling crazy hungry but I dance right on the edge of my calorie limit every single day. And I could eat more, oh yes I could. The difference being I can now stop - whereas when I was eating carbs I couldn't.
I know you have mentioned this before which made me think about something Dr Nally said. He says he is very IR and after thinking he was eating keto for 5+ years, when he actually tested his blood, he was not in ketosis. He said he had to take exogenous ketones to maintain ketosis, and when he did, he finally experienced some of the benefits he had heard others talking about.
I know the more IR you are, the harder it is to get into and maintain ketosis. Generally speaking it means your body is more prone to converting protein to glucose, so keeping protein lower may be needed.
I am not sold on taking exogenous ketones. I don't think there is enough research on them yet, and I think they have primarily been marketed to those who want the benefits of keto without eating keto which I don't think will work.
I don't know if you have done in testing of your blood ketones or not. The meters and strips are not cheap. That might be a worthwhile investment, though.
If you don't want to or can't test blood ketones, you may want to try an n=1 experiment of going down near the bottom of the needed protein range and possibly going near 0 carb for a few weeks to see if that makes a difference.
For reference on protein minimums, you can see this:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/how-much-protein-is-excessive/
Pull quote:
"In 1985, the WHO reviewed studies of daily obligatory losses of nitrogen, and found that an average is 0.61 g/kg/day (total). Presumable, the diet should replace (roughly) this 0.61 g/kg/day being lost. Remember, this average is for normal healthy people, not people losing muscle or otherwise sick. So the international group recommended that normal healthy people should get roughly 0.6g/kg/day. In order to make sure everybody was covered, the WHO added 25% (2 standard deviations) above the mean to get 0.75 g/kg/day which sometimes gets rounded up to 0.8 g/kg/day. In other words, 97.5% of the healthy general population loses less than this 0.75 g/kg/day of amino acids. This is not a low standard. This is a very, very high standard of protein intake."
Just eating lower carb, even if not going into ketosis, will help with controlling hunger due to things like lower insulin response, protein and fat taking longer to digest and empty from the stomach, etc. which is what you have found.
Wouldn't using MCT be far easier than exogenous ketones? And I know as someone whose IR is a total PITA that I got fat adapted really well, had most of the benefits of nutritional ketosis, though I never tested if I was in it for sure other than a time or two, until I hit that wall where my thyroid stalled out on me (which still is unknown whether it is related to going keto or if it is related to underlying nutritional deficiencies - once I heal enough to get the go ahead to try keto again, hopefully we'll be able to rule out keto itself as the cause)... After that, I still had the FA benefits.. I'd have to research to see when benefits were specific to NK and not FA...2 -
cstehansen wrote: »EbonyDahlia wrote: »You know, over 4 years of under 20g carbs a day and I have not had a single day where I do not want to eat all of my calories. Keto has allowed me to get my hunger under control, and I can certainly go from lunch to dinner now without feeling crazy hungry but I dance right on the edge of my calorie limit every single day. And I could eat more, oh yes I could. The difference being I can now stop - whereas when I was eating carbs I couldn't.
I know you have mentioned this before which made me think about something Dr Nally said. He says he is very IR and after thinking he was eating keto for 5+ years, when he actually tested his blood, he was not in ketosis. He said he had to take exogenous ketones to maintain ketosis, and when he did, he finally experienced some of the benefits he had heard others talking about.
I know the more IR you are, the harder it is to get into and maintain ketosis. Generally speaking it means your body is more prone to converting protein to glucose, so keeping protein lower may be needed.
I am not sold on taking exogenous ketones. I don't think there is enough research on them yet, and I think they have primarily been marketed to those who want the benefits of keto without eating keto which I don't think will work.
I don't know if you have done in testing of your blood ketones or not. The meters and strips are not cheap. That might be a worthwhile investment, though.
If you don't want to or can't test blood ketones, you may want to try an n=1 experiment of going down near the bottom of the needed protein range and possibly going near 0 carb for a few weeks to see if that makes a difference.
For reference on protein minimums, you can see this:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/how-much-protein-is-excessive/
Pull quote:
"In 1985, the WHO reviewed studies of daily obligatory losses of nitrogen, and found that an average is 0.61 g/kg/day (total). Presumable, the diet should replace (roughly) this 0.61 g/kg/day being lost. Remember, this average is for normal healthy people, not people losing muscle or otherwise sick. So the international group recommended that normal healthy people should get roughly 0.6g/kg/day. In order to make sure everybody was covered, the WHO added 25% (2 standard deviations) above the mean to get 0.75 g/kg/day which sometimes gets rounded up to 0.8 g/kg/day. In other words, 97.5% of the healthy general population loses less than this 0.75 g/kg/day of amino acids. This is not a low standard. This is a very, very high standard of protein intake."
Just eating lower carb, even if not going into ketosis, will help with controlling hunger due to things like lower insulin response, protein and fat taking longer to digest and empty from the stomach, etc. which is what you have found.
Thanks for this, it's interesting. I'm definitely in ketosis, and over the last 4 years I've tried lower protein (as little as 50g a day) and higher protein lower fat (a few months of each) but the results have been pretty much the same.0 -
If this is about interest in food, as opposed to interest in you eating food, it will definitely come back. I was a foodie before, seeking out great restaurants and chefs and incredible food combinations. After I got past the food ambivalence stage (about 3 weeks for me) I'm now still a foodie, seeking out ways of working with keto foods that give maximum flavour, sensations. I'm working my way thru my Michel Roux cookbook and finding all the recipes which can be made with little or no alterations. I don't really care about keto pizza, but I've cooked a smash it out of the park Boeuf Bourginon and my Thai green curry is superb. The difference is in portion size. Very small compared to the old carb days. We just don't want or need as much food if it's nutrient dense. I'm still figuring that one out.
I'm a foodie too. I am really enjoying adding things like thick steaks with wonderful butter sauces back into my eating. I love learning about the keto type foods I can make now. I love chocolate fat bombs, they are so much better than commercial chocolates, I have always preferred dark chocolates and it doesn't get any darker than the fat bombs.
This WOE, some days I want all the foods, others, I just want a taste of a few things. To not be hangry all the time, as I was in my high carb low fat existence is the best part.5
