Salt/Sodium
TravellerRay
Posts: 94 Member
This is one that I have kept reading about in the threads but am resisting. I have spent so many years cutting salt out of my diet that it feels like I have given in if I now change.
What really surprised me this morning was the comment that low Sodium would result in water retention when everything we were told is the opposite. Seems that everything we were taught in the last 20 years on nutrition is wrong.
Ray
What really surprised me this morning was the comment that low Sodium would result in water retention when everything we were told is the opposite. Seems that everything we were taught in the last 20 years on nutrition is wrong.
Ray
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Low sodium is a dangerous condition that can you in the hospital with dehydration. You are only REPLACING the sodium your body is losing. You're not stuffing it full of extra sodium on top of what's there.
If you don't replace it, your body is given no choice but to dump potassium and magnesium too. All of these must be kept in balance. You lose electrolytes with all of your fluid loss. So, if these get dangerously low, you can bet your body will do everything in its power to not let you die of something so simple. It will try to prevent any further fluid loss.
All of these electrolytes have jobs to do and you can't live without them. Your body will start giving you all kinds of symptoms. It's up to you to listen and respond.9 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Low sodium is a dangerous condition that can you in the hospital with dehydration. You are only REPLACING the sodium your body is losing. You're not stuffing it full of extra sodium on top of what's there.
If you don't replace it, your body is given no choice but to dump potassium and magnesium too. All of these must be kept in balance. You lose electrolytes with all of your fluid loss. So, if these get dangerously low, you can bet your body will do everything in its power to not let you die of something so simple. It will try to prevent any further fluid loss.
All of these electrolytes have jobs to do and you can't live without them. Your body will start giving you all kinds of symptoms. It's up to you to listen and respond.
Exquisitely put!
@baconslave1 -
I think the portion in the first video in this thread puts it the clearest:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10524293/a-presentations-cardiac-risk-dietary-fat-carbs-apob-a-1-other-lipids-salt-bp-more#latest
Obviously, there is far more in this presentation, but he shows the sodium portion so clearly a 2nd grader could understand it.3 -
My biggest surprise was seeing the position he now holds. Will try to be more open minded, but there are days when it seems nothing we were told is true0
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I have a mixed bag of feelings when it comes to sodium. I've been on the same BP pill which is a combination of 2 drugs, one being a diuretic, for several years due to "mild hypertension". My diastolic BP was consistently above 80, but below 100 when I started taking this med. Since starting keto in Oct, my BP is consistently lower now, systolic and diastolic. Some days it runs under 100/60 (I monitor it twice daily upon waking and going to bed) therefore, I've taken it upon myself to selectively take my BP pill.
I increased my sodium intake to 4000mg daily, and most days I meet this, sometimes going over. I also take a magnesium supplement daily (Mag Calm). Last week, I took my BP pill before going to bed on 2 consecutive nights because I felt a little bloated and my diastolic was in the low 80's. The next night my cramping feet woke me up. I pushed back the covers and literally watched my toes and feet twist and curl like they had minds of their own! It was kinda comical, but hurt too much to laugh.
I managed to get downstairs by walking on the sides of my feet, and downed a glass of keto ade with extra magnesium added. I've had this happen before, and it traveled to my calves. It was excruciating, to say the least, and all I could think of is "my heart is a muscle...if this happens there, my goose is cooked"!
I'll see my PCP next month (she knows I'm doing keto) for a physical and labs. I've lost 51# (39 since starting keto) since I saw her last, and I'm at my lowest weight in 40yrs, including my weight loss from gastric bypass in 2000. With the weight loss came the lower BP, and I know she'll be thrilled at both results, so it remains to be seen what she'll do about the meds. Hopefully, she'll discontinue it, but I'll have to be diligent about my electrolytes, and stop worrying so much over too much sodium.
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TravellerRay wrote: »My biggest surprise was seeing the position he now holds. Will try to be more open minded, but there are days when it seems nothing we were told is true
Just remember that most of what we have been told has been by government dictates. Now think about all the politicians and what percentage of them you believe consistently tell the truth.5 -
I have a mixed bag of feelings when it comes to sodium. I've been on the same BP pill which is a combination of 2 drugs, one being a diuretic, for several years due to "mild hypertension". My diastolic BP was consistently above 80, but below 100 when I started taking this med. Since starting keto in Oct, my BP is consistently lower now, systolic and diastolic. Some days it runs under 100/60 (I monitor it twice daily upon waking and going to bed) therefore, I've taken it upon myself to selectively take my BP pill.
I increased my sodium intake to 4000mg daily, and most days I meet this, sometimes going over. I also take a magnesium supplement daily (Mag Calm). Last week, I took my BP pill before going to bed on 2 consecutive nights because I felt a little bloated and my diastolic was in the low 80's. The next night my cramping feet woke me up. I pushed back the covers and literally watched my toes and feet twist and curl like they had minds of their own! It was kinda comical, but hurt too much to laugh.
I managed to get downstairs by walking on the sides of my feet, and downed a glass of keto ade with extra magnesium added. I've had this happen before, and it traveled to my calves. It was excruciating, to say the least, and all I could think of is "my heart is a muscle...if this happens there, my goose is cooked"!
I'll see my PCP next month (she knows I'm doing keto) for a physical and labs. I've lost 51# (39 since starting keto) since I saw her last, and I'm at my lowest weight in 40yrs, including my weight loss from gastric bypass in 2000. With the weight loss came the lower BP, and I know she'll be thrilled at both results, so it remains to be seen what she'll do about the meds. Hopefully, she'll discontinue it, but I'll have to be diligent about my electrolytes, and stop worrying so much over too much sodium.
That study showing the actual affects of sodium and that for those with HBP, they have that "sweet spot" and too low or too high is bad was an eye opener for most. For those of us without HBP, it is much easier as it is primarily about getting enough because going too high has very little negative. It sounds like you will have to be much more diligent in remaining in the sweet spot.
It is encouraging to read your results so far are generally better. This is a marathon and not a sprint. N=1 experimentation is very important because no two people are exactly alike. We all have to find what works best for us. Studies showing anything almost never show something is perfect for 100% of people. There are always going to be exceptions.
Good luck and congrats on the progress you have already made.4 -
Thanks for the info, and congrats. I love keto, and the benefits thus far have been tremendous. Just hoping the labs are supportive also. I'll read the study mentioned later this afternoon. Hopefully, I'll find my "sweet spot" and stay there.0
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Just watched the first video and well understood. That sweet spot is definitely in order for me. For now, I'll keep my sodium at 4000mg, and continue to monitor my BP twice daily while watching for body cues. Fascinating.0
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For those on SAD (i.e. high carbs), there were multiple studies published over decades that consistently found that a high level of sodium (Na) intake was correlated with an increase risk of heart diseases. Meanwhile, multiple studies published over that same time period revealed that a low intake of potassium (K) correlated with an increased risk of heart diseases. Finally, these different studies were linked. I would have to find the study, but I believe it was published around 2009... basically it found that a high intake of Na along with a high intake of K did NOT correlate with the increased risk of heart diseases seen in the group with high Na / low K intake. The conclusion is that the ratio is really the issue. In short, people who eat foods with high Na and low K (usually highly processed foods, such as fast food) have a higher risk of heart diseases because of the ratio, not the amount of sodium.
For those on a keto diet, sodium loss is a very real thing and low sodium intake can have more immediate consequences. If you have ever bonked / been worn out (i.e. keto flu) due to insufficient sodium intake, you know what I mean. Fortunately, high sodium intake can solve that within a relatively short period of time and you can be back to normal within the same day.3 -
Just watched the first video and well understood. That sweet spot is definitely in order for me. For now, I'll keep my sodium at 4000mg, and continue to monitor my BP twice daily while watching for body cues. Fascinating.
@Bayluvr,
FYI, here's the shortest video I found that talks only about salt and ketogenic diets.
Elsewhere, he explains that it is generally riskier to drop from 5000mg to 2000mg, than to increase from 5000mg to 8000mg! (Who would have guessed?
Not me - until I stumbled into this eye-opening group! 
)
https://youtu.be/WNV0GJcrqp4 3 -
On a related but tangential note, has anyone got any experience of inadvertently taking in too much sodium in a single day? I had one of those ridiculously busy days yesterday and so all I ate was about 2000 calories worth of Kielbasa sausage (my favourite keto food - it fits my macros perfectly and tastes heavenly!) Normally I might have a third of that as a meal replacement if I'm on the move or a smaller amount as a snack and the amount that I ate was very unusual, but it was only when I checked today that I realised that there is over 12,000mg of sodium in the amount I had yesterday! I'm usually between 4-5000mg per day. Do I need to mitigate this sort of excessive consumption of salt or is an occasional 'salt bender' unlikely to cause any problems?0
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StarshipFighter23 wrote: »On a related but tangential note, has anyone got any experience of inadvertently taking in too much sodium in a single day?
I realised that there is over 12,000mg of sodium in the amount I had yesterday!
How many hours did you spend perched on the porcelain throne? 1 -
StarshipFighter23 wrote: »On a related but tangential note, has anyone got any experience of inadvertently taking in too much sodium in a single day? I had one of those ridiculously busy days yesterday and so all I ate was about 2000 calories worth of Kielbasa sausage (my favourite keto food - it fits my macros perfectly and tastes heavenly!) Normally I might have a third of that as a meal replacement if I'm on the move or a smaller amount as a snack and the amount that I ate was very unusual, but it was only when I checked today that I realised that there is over 12,000mg of sodium in the amount I had yesterday! I'm usually between 4-5000mg per day. Do I need to mitigate this sort of excessive consumption of salt or is an occasional 'salt bender' unlikely to cause any problems?
Typically you'd get diarrhea0 -
Not yet... I did notice a greater urgency than usual this morning though. Maybe it's in the mail! Yikes! That's a pretty disgusting metaphor...
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StarshipFighter23 wrote: »Not yet... I did notice a greater urgency than usual this morning though. Maybe it's in the mail! Yikes! That's a pretty disgusting metaphor...
?? Perch, porcelain.... ??
There are plenty of putrescent p-words prominently not present!1 -
StarshipFighter23 wrote: »Not yet... I did notice a greater urgency than usual this morning though. Maybe it's in the mail! Yikes! That's a pretty disgusting metaphor...
?? Perch, porcelain.... ??
There are plenty of putrescent p-words prominently not present!
Pretty potty?1 -
StarshipFighter23 wrote: »Not yet... I did notice a greater urgency than usual this morning though. Maybe it's in the mail! Yikes! That's a pretty disgusting metaphor...
?? Perch, porcelain.... ??
There are plenty of putrescent p-words prominently not present!
Pretty potty?
Ha! Pretty pink potty (want a cracker?).0 -
StarshipFighter23 wrote: »Not yet... I did notice a greater urgency than usual this morning though. Maybe it's in the mail! Yikes! That's a pretty disgusting metaphor...
Depending on how things were .... um.... progressing prior, it could just make it more urgent and ... um... make it more rapidly departing. It is not uncommon for me to breach 8000 mg. Sometimes I do it on purpose if things aren't progressing properly. I just have to be careful to not go too far too quickly. Magnesium is the other supplement that can help that as well.4 -
Also, thirst and water retention with too much sodium.1
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@RalfLott, thank you for the short vid. It correlates with what I've read in his book, and elsewhere. I just wish he'd focus on those who are hypertensive in the vid, and how to safely increase, but then there would be many variables there. But he did say moderate, so I think keeping track of my pressures and all of my lytes will help. I'll leave the rest up to my PCP (with my input, of course).1
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@RalfLott, thank you for the short vid. It correlates with what I've read in his book, and elsewhere. I just wish he'd focus on those who are hypertensive in the vid, and how to safely increase, but then there would be many variables there. But he did say moderate, so I think keeping track of my pressures and all of my lytes will help. I'll leave the rest up to my PCP (with my input, of course).
Yes, I can see your point. As you've figured out, they're are a ton of individual variations with BP, as with other key metrics.
With your level of engagement, you should be able to stay on top of things.
I haven't found myself to be a very good n=1 scientist, as my self-experiments often defy reproduction..... Hrrmmph.
Knocking on wood, however, I haven't noticed any increase in BP since I started keto. It's stayed fairly steady around 90-115/60-70 on 40mg of Lisinopril (recently switched to Ramipril for reputed CVD prevention...), regardless of sodium intake.0 -
So does the recommended salt intake of 3000 to 5000 mg a day while enjoying keto make any difference when considering the total amount of calories someone takes in in a day?1
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