Keto, insulin and inflammation question
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I’ve never found a large steak or any meat causes me to test negative for ketones.
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I don’t own a ketone meter, I just hear folks on podcasts talking about keeping protein lower, to avoid higher insulin response, which raises insulin and drops ketones. If yours are not dropping you probably less sensitive or not eating nuff steak:)Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I’ve never found a large steak or any meat causes me to test negative for ketones.
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The thing they don't mention is the duration/speed of the insulin spikes. The difference btw a glucose spike vs a protein spike is speed. Glucose spikes faster. Protein processing takes more time and the insulin released is over a longer period of time from what I understand.
Dropping ketone output doesn't necessarily mean you drop out of ketosis. It's just a lower level of ketones, which will change again once the protein/insulin round is over. Unless you require a very high ketone level for a neurological therapy, "in ketosis" is "in ketosis." High or low doesn't matter. From my studies, protein is only converted to 2g glucose per 60g protein. For chicken, that's like close to 12oz of meat or something. And since the body needs to have a healthy amount of glucose (synthesized or eaten) to function day-to-day, I think we're safe with eating a little more protein.4 -
If you haven't listened to this yet or read my synopsis in the thread... It's 2 researchers talking about diabetes and the protein. Very interesting.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10638849/ir-diabetes-ketosis-protein-and-gng-topics-low-carb-podcast#latest1 -
rfrenkel77 wrote: »
I don’t own a ketone meter, I just hear folks on podcasts talking about keeping protein lower, to avoid higher insulin response, which raises insulin and drops ketones. If yours are not dropping you probably less sensitive or not eating nuff steak:)Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I’ve never found a large steak or any meat causes me to test negative for ketones.
I use ketosis mainly to manage my BG. I tend to have a higher morning BG reading so if I eat I will eat protein. It helps bring my BG down, possibly due to resulting the rising insulin.
I don't need high ketones for any health reason, low ketones is fine, so protein works well for me.0 -
rfrenkel77 wrote: »
I don’t own a ketone meter, I just hear folks on podcasts talking about keeping protein lower, to avoid higher insulin response, which raises insulin and drops ketones. If yours are not dropping you probably less sensitive or not eating nuff steak:)Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I’ve never found a large steak or any meat causes me to test negative for ketones.
Podcasts are just one way medical myths turn into medical 'facts'.
We do not even know 1% about what we are talking about most all of the time. Just over the past 3-4 years I have had to toss out a lot of medical "facts" because they have since been proven less that 100% factual.
No we do not need to through up our hands just because the full truths can not be known. When I am the 1 of n=1 those are the only 'facts' that I am willing to act on or stop acting on.
At the age of 67 I am coming to realize there are few or less absolute facts at apply everywhere and to everyone. 4 -
The sites mention the gluconeogenesis is a demand driven process. Ok. So in a keto adapted individual glucose demand is not high, but still the body is not going to dump excess protein but convert it into energy/glucose, just because it has it. That is now available to burn instead of your own fat storage. Seems like limiting down protein still still a good idea to get more fat burn. Just brainstorming. What you all think? The only way to force body to tap into fat storage is the force a drastic calorie drop from all sources. Fasting that is.1
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My recent personal experience would support the suggestion you just made. I'm trying some different macro's to establish whether the amount of protein I'm eating is slowing my fat burn down (probably just a little)
Just quickly, that chart in the OP seems to contain some irregularities, like multiple entries for choc chip cookies for example. Made me wonder how reliable the data is, or if perhaps some of the terms used were a little vague.0 -
Why do my blood sugars rise after a high protein meal:
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2017/06/03/why-do-my-blood-sugars-rise-after-a-high-protein-meal/
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Freischuetz wrote: »Why do my blood sugars rise after a high protein meal:
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2017/06/03/why-do-my-blood-sugars-rise-after-a-high-protein-meal/
Really good summary!1 -
rfrenkel77 wrote: »The answer to original question is both steak and apple will spike equal insulin and stop ketosis ie fat furn. I learned some pathology especially from the last link. that was a very readable article, canadjineh.
Still amazing that there is notable difference between animal protein from chicken bacon and fish and beef.
Amounts matter as well as pairings. If you eat an apple with some fat as some cheese it will effect your blood sugar less. If you eat a piece of steak with lots of fat it will have a different effect, if you eat two pounds of lean beef at once it will have a different effect. Lots of advice out there also about how grass fed beef will effect your body differently then others due to cla. I find that a lot of protein will effect my blood sugar. Too little protein is something I don't want to risk, but it's indeed not too easy to get too little protein a lot of new research says. The key seems to be always as high good fats as possible and little and good carbs.0 -
rfrenkel77 wrote: »The sites mention the gluconeogenesis is a demand driven process. Ok. So in a keto adapted individual glucose demand is not high, but still the body is not going to dump excess protein but convert it into energy/glucose, just because it has it. That is now available to burn instead of your own fat storage. Seems like limiting down protein still still a good idea to get more fat burn. Just brainstorming. What you all think? The only way to force body to tap into fat storage is the force a drastic calorie drop from all sources. Fasting that is.
Drastic calorie drop isn't a great idea. In the long run, it's not sustainable. IF doesn't mean you restrict calories. You are right on the money about excess protein etc. Try eating high fat, moderate protein, and very little carbs for a few days without restricting calories on a moderate if 16:8. And put butter on that steak:)0 -
rfrenkel77 wrote: »The sites mention the gluconeogenesis is a demand driven process. Ok. So in a keto adapted individual glucose demand is not high, but still the body is not going to dump excess protein but convert it into energy/glucose, just because it has it. That is now available to burn instead of your own fat storage. Seems like limiting down protein still still a good idea to get more fat burn. Just brainstorming. What you all think? The only way to force body to tap into fat storage is the force a drastic calorie drop from all sources. Fasting that is.
@rfrenkel77 - The thing is, your body is smart. It adjusts to calorie restriction, especially extreme calorie restriction, by reducing metabolism to match. Essentially, your body thinks there's some degree of famine, and so it will slow your metabolism to keep you alive. It won't catch up instantly, but within 1-2 weeks. So you'll have a huge drop at first, as your old higher metabolism burns through your new lower calorie intake. Then, as the body realizes, "Oh, this isn't just a day or two. We must have hit famine or have to eat way less for a while, so since we (the body, we) LOVE stasis, we'll slow the metabolism to match the calories!" So then, your metabolism will always try to match your caloric intake. It is the body's defense mechanism to have enough fat stores to survive famine, and then also to keep itself the same. The body strives for balance, for stasis. It doesn't like change. So, to keep the body guessing and to keep the metabolism burning and churning, you'd be better off doing some kind of calorie cycling protocol - rather than extended fasting.
Intense or extended fasting actually have different effects on the body, and as I understand it, really are not intended for actual weight loss. They repair insulin sensitivity and autophagy and many things...but as soon as you resume caloric intake, the body will breath a sigh of relief and soak it all in, so to speak...
TL;DR - you can trick the body, but only for so long. It adapts. And it likes to stay where it is, so you have to mix it up to keep the metabolism guessing.2 -
Freischuetz wrote: »Why do my blood sugars rise after a high protein meal:
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2017/06/03/why-do-my-blood-sugars-rise-after-a-high-protein-meal/
very good information. I've been watching Dr. Bernstien's diabetes University on youtube, I'm about halfway through that series. I feel like that has been the best source of information for me regarding how to manage diabetes. I'm type 2, and a lot of the information is based on his experience as type 1, but a lot of it is still applicable to me and helping me understand how my f'd up metabolism actually works. that's the first place I heard someone say that protein causes an insulin response and rise in blood sugar. I guess all type 1 diabetics know that, but mainstream usually only talks about carbs.
He recommends for his diabetic patients a diet that is very low carb <12 g per meal, as much protein as needed for satiety, with moderate fat. then the patient has to determine through testing themselves how much insulin they need to take to keep glucose level under control.1 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »
Intense or extended fasting actually have different effects on the body, and as I understand it, really are not intended for actual weight loss. They repair insulin sensitivity and autophagy and many things...but as soon as you resume caloric intake, the body will breath a sigh of relief and soak it all in, so to speak...
TL;DR - you can trick the body, but only for so long. It adapts. And it likes to stay where it is, so you have to mix it up to keep the metabolism guessing.
You right, but I was not intensive fasting, just tried 2 weeks of one day on one day off. I’m relatively lean so an extended fast will just eat me up. Just trying to find the magic combo for fat burn only. I attached pic of my weight response to alt. day fasting.1 -
rfrenkel77 wrote: »KnitOrMiss wrote: »
Intense or extended fasting actually have different effects on the body, and as I understand it, really are not intended for actual weight loss. They repair insulin sensitivity and autophagy and many things...but as soon as you resume caloric intake, the body will breath a sigh of relief and soak it all in, so to speak...
TL;DR - you can trick the body, but only for so long. It adapts. And it likes to stay where it is, so you have to mix it up to keep the metabolism guessing.
You right, but I was not intensive fasting, just tried 2 weeks of one day on one day off. I’m relatively lean so an extended fast will just eat me up. Just trying to find the magic combo for fat burn only. I attached pic of my weight response to alt. day fasting.
@rfrenkel77 - I think I would be more interested to know what your health markers did during that time. Fasting glucose/insulin, A1C, trigs, etc. 1
