Meaty May
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Good stuff to think about from another forum:I think there's lots of good ones out there, but yeah it's almost like it's more about finding your niche than justifying your position. Or maybe just like it. Shawn Baker for instance--I think plant-free is interesting, there are people out there who look to be doing pretty good. There is a plausibility in places, if a person really needed more consistent ketosis, maybe being able to be a little freer with protein would be worth bringing the carbs even lower. But his lab numbers kind of suck, when somebody has a blood glucose in the 90's I'm sort of willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but 125 with a prediabetic A1C looks suspicious. If the A1C were prediabetic, and the blood glucose normal, again benefit of the doubt, A1C doesn't perfectly correlate with average blood glucose. Taken together these deserve better than the shrug Baker seems to have given. A carnivore diet is healthful, so whatever my numbers are, they must be healthful doesn't really cut it. He could easily drop his protein in half and increase his fat, and his blood glucose would probably go down, this would look more like a normalization of diet than protein restriction, since he's eating 300+ grams a day.
If there really are people so sensitive to just about every plant (or to so many that it's not worth the risk looking for tolerable ones), that doesn't do away with the need to find out what's best within a carnivore template.0 -
Shawn Baker addressed this. He is a competitive athelete. High blood glucose reading are associated with higher athletic performance. He didn't quite any studies, but they aren't too hard to find.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5094325/
It is hard to draw conclusions, because we just don't know. What we do know is that the vast majority of zerocarb eaters (even those eating 2-3 pounds of meat a day without protein restrictions) do not seem to have high blood glucose levels.
For those that have the monitors, it would be easy to confirm or deny any negative effect on blood glucose. I no longer bother, but I have done it before and my numbers were always fine.1 -
I have both a blood glucose monitor & blood ketone monitor. Neither of them have been in much use lately.
For the purposes of Meaty May, I will be using the ketone monitor once per week -- same day, fasted -- just out of science nerd curiosity. I already started on Day 7 of keto eating, and got a (non-surprising) reading of a whopping 0.2 mmol/L.
I can feel the difference when my ketones kick in. There was a specific moment when I realized it this week. So I'm sure my reading tomorrow will be higher. But that's not my specific goal this time.
Blood glucose measurement over years of nutritional experiments has been both interesting and frustrating. I won't be measuring that one consistently (or maybe at all?) because, in the absence of any substantial amount of carbohydrate, it is generally pretty boring.
I think numbers have their time & place. We can measure SO many things now, and it's fascinating. However. When we are living our daily lives according to numbers -- whether that be a number on the scale, a number of calories, or carbs, or ketones, or blood glucose, etc -- it is easy to lose touch with what our bodies are telling us.
From everything I have read, Shawn Baker FEELS good. Goat FEELS good. If, each day, we are feeling & performing at a level that indicates our own personal, optimal health -- and not experiencing any of the symptoms that are indicative of ill health... then yes, I think it is a lot easier to shrug and say, "I don't have all of the answers, but it's working for me."
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Just a thought re: ketone monitoring. Don't be surprised if morning fasting ketones might come up low. The Dawn Phenomenon, which causes the liver to crank out glucose in prep of waking and is an annoyance to diabetics thanks to that, can/will affect ketone levels to a degree. If I understand it correctly. I was asked in the MF a few months ago about ketone testing. The person was testing fasting, and it was low. So I found an online article where a guy was doing theraputic keto and tracked his ketones all day for awhile. Surprisingly, some of his highest were in the afternoon. Lowest, fasting ketones. I wonder if I can find it again...
ETA: Ah...here we are: https://medium.com/the-mission/tracking-blood-ketones-behind-the-scenes-data-on-the-ketogenic-diet-7d35fcab0baa
Of course I'd be curious to know if in the dearth of ANY carbohydrate, how pronounced the Dawn Phenom becomes under those conditions. Better or worse? I don't know enough about physiology to know. But it makes a Baconslave curious nonetheless.
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baconslave wrote: »Just a thought re: ketone monitoring. Don't be surprised if morning fasting ketones might come up low. The Dawn Phenomenon, which causes the liver to crank out glucose in prep of waking and is an annoyance to diabetics thanks to that, can/will affect ketone levels to a degree. If I understand it correctly. I was asked in the MF a few months ago about ketone testing. The person was testing fasting, and it was low. So I found an online article where a guy was doing theraputic keto and tracked his ketones all day for awhile. Surprisingly, some of his highest were in the afternoon. Lowest, fasting ketones. I wonder if I can find it again...
Yes, this is true, and I am aware of it -- BUT -- I have never been able to come up with a different time of day where there would be the same consistency.
I have measured at different times of day in the past (I think this was more when I had the breath ketone monitor ~ the name escapes me at the moment ~ but I got one when they first came out). I often found ketones to be highest at night, close to bedtime, even if I had just eaten recently. It was all very interesting, but there was nothing consistent about it -- it was just fun to see that thing light up in the orange or red zone. Lol.
As you know, the blood strips are expensive, and I can't justify doing it more than ~once a week just out of curiosity. Even if I am using the lower fasting numbers, at least I know that my body is in *pretty much* the same physiological state when I measure. No food or drink has occurred yet, and (hopefully) at that point in the day, no one has started stressing me out yet.
Edited to say: So the way I look at it, if I have ketones showing up *despite* the dawn phenomenon, then I know that I've got a good thing going on with them throughout the rest of the day.0 -
Regarding Dawn Phenomenon, I'm a bit different as a type 1 diabetic so perhaps can provide some insight. For us T1D's, we do not make insulin and we also do not have controlled glycogen release. There are definitely times when more glycogen is released than other times (stress / cortisol response and some experience Dawn Phenomenon as well). For the glycogen release triggered by glucagon, though, it happens 24/7. We are constantly making and releasing glucagon because our pancreases can't figure that out when it is not making insulin. This is why we take basal insulin - either as a long-acting insulin or as small and repeated doses of short acting throughout the day delivered via an insulin pump.
ETA: Point is that despite very few carbs, I still release enough glycogen 24/7 to need insulin 24/7. Somehow there is enough glycogen stored to facilitate that.1 -
Just throwing together what I have this morning -- and can't wait for it to be done cooking. I can't tell you how many years it has been since I've made any kind of meatloaf.
Ground turkey (however much is in those packages at Costco -- I think it's like 1.5 pounds), 2 eggs, 1/4 cup ground up pork cracklins, 3/4 tsp Real Salt... and two pieces of bacon the kids didn't eat for breakfast.
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cricketpower wrote: »
Just throwing together what I have this morning -- and can't wait for it to be done cooking. I can't tell you how many years it has been since I've made any kind of meatloaf.
Ground turkey (however much is in those packages at Costco -- I think it's like 1.5 pounds), 2 eggs, 1/4 cup ground up pork cracklins, 3/4 tsp Real Salt... and two pieces of bacon the kids didn't eat for breakfast.
Delish1 -
cricketpower wrote: »
Just throwing together what I have this morning -- and can't wait for it to be done cooking. I can't tell you how many years it has been since I've made any kind of meatloaf.
Ground turkey (however much is in those packages at Costco -- I think it's like 1.5 pounds), 2 eggs, 1/4 cup ground up pork cracklins, 3/4 tsp Real Salt... and two pieces of bacon the kids didn't eat for breakfast.
Delish
It is GREAT -- thanks for the suggestion!
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I already decided to do some n=1 during meaty may. I’ll share here if you like. I’m T2D and on 500mg metformin 2xD. I take both doses together in the evening in an attempt to squash Dawn P. In her tracks. I really struggle with it. I have a dual monitor - precision xtra, and usually test both at the same time.
This is the end of week 1 for me and it seems I’ve settled in to a 2 meal a day routine. Breakfast and dinner.
Last week Friday my morning pre meal BG was 164 and ketones were 0.2
This morning my pre meal BG was 144 and ketones were 1.1
About 1.5 hrs after breakfast (2 egg, 2 slices aged cheddar and 6pcs thick cut bacon) BG was 124.
This will be fun.0 -
Egg Sammy. 2 -
We love our "one egg wonder" pans here. We have several, and they get used every single day.
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One week countdown!2
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baconslave wrote: »Just a thought re: ketone monitoring. Don't be surprised if morning fasting ketones might come up low. The Dawn Phenomenon, which causes the liver to crank out glucose in prep of waking and is an annoyance to diabetics thanks to that, can/will affect ketone levels to a degree. If I understand it correctly. I was asked in the MF a few months ago about ketone testing. The person was testing fasting, and it was low. So I found an online article where a guy was doing theraputic keto and tracked his ketones all day for awhile. Surprisingly, some of his highest were in the afternoon. Lowest, fasting ketones. I wonder if I can find it again...
ETA: Ah...here we are: https://medium.com/the-mission/tracking-blood-ketones-behind-the-scenes-data-on-the-ketogenic-diet-7d35fcab0baa
Of course I'd be curious to know if in the dearth of ANY carbohydrate, how pronounced the Dawn Phenom becomes under those conditions. Better or worse? I don't know enough about physiology to know. But it makes a Baconslave curious nonetheless.
@baconslave - I did a 3 week carnivore trial in March and was testing my BG at the same time (geek curiosity ) and my BG within 1/2 of waking was very consistently in the mid to high 70's - the only carbs that I was consuming were from eggs and cheese so that's an n=1 observation for you. 1 -
I am starting to get excited. This is reminding me of the first "Meativore May" and how many people tried it out. A lot of people had a great time with that, even if they didn't stick with it forever.4
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I found this study I thought was interesting. For those who say we need plants for fiber, this is a study on cheetahs showing how they get their fiber from rabbits:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1439-0396.2011.01252.x
If you are like me and eat whole sardines on a regular basis, then you also get your prebiotics via skin, cartilage and bone from them. Or if you eat the salmon skin, there is another source.
I know there are other ways to incorporate the cartilage, ligament and bone of other animals into your diet to get prebiotics (aka fiber) from animals into your diet without subjecting yourself to the antinutrients and phytochemicals plants use to protect themselves which you get when eating plant products.1 -
Checked out some talks by Benjamin Bikman this morning, after a mention made here on the sodium discussion.
I found this one especially relevant to the Meaty May discussion. For anyone who is impatient or short on time -- around 18:30 (to the end) is a good starting point to see what really stood out to me re: concerns about needing to limit protein on a ketogenic diet.
I'll admit that when I read Jimmy Moore's book years ago, and others, I bought it -- all of it -- because, after all, these people were the experts. I wanted to do it, and I wanted to do it "right". I am guilty of focusing primarily on fat, and minimizing protein, for brief periods in the past. Chasing those higher ketones. Thinking, the more, the better, right?
Well. Funny how I can't look back and say that I felt my very best during those particular times. That's why they were brief.
So I find all of this newer, emerging research to be very interesting. Hope someone else out there will enjoy, as well.
"Insulin vs. Glucagon: The relevance of dietary protein"
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z3fO5aTD6JU 2 -
Fantastic video!1
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Ready Freddy? I just peeked and Meaty May is right around the corner!1
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Guys I found this handy meal planning guide!!
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Getting ready with lamb loin chops cooked in ghee and topped with blue cheese and the ghee from the pan poured over top. For May, I will be dropping the dairy except ghee, but this was just a warm up.4 -
Good stuff to think about from another forum:I think there's lots of good ones out there, but yeah it's almost like it's more about finding your niche than justifying your position. Or maybe just like it. Shawn Baker for instance--I think plant-free is interesting, there are people out there who look to be doing pretty good. There is a plausibility in places, if a person really needed more consistent ketosis, maybe being able to be a little freer with protein would be worth bringing the carbs even lower. But his lab numbers kind of suck, when somebody has a blood glucose in the 90's I'm sort of willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but 125 with a prediabetic A1C looks suspicious. If the A1C were prediabetic, and the blood glucose normal, again benefit of the doubt, A1C doesn't perfectly correlate with average blood glucose. Taken together these deserve better than the shrug Baker seems to have given. A carnivore diet is healthful, so whatever my numbers are, they must be healthful doesn't really cut it. He could easily drop his protein in half and increase his fat, and his blood glucose would probably go down, this would look more like a normalization of diet than protein restriction, since he's eating 300+ grams a day.
If there really are people so sensitive to just about every plant (or to so many that it's not worth the risk looking for tolerable ones), that doesn't do away with the need to find out what's best within a carnivore template.
My n=1 on that front was that my morning glucose ran a bit high (110-115) even while meat only, but on a plan that did three meals a day. Dropped breakfast and went to two meals a day and my numbers dropped into the 80s within a week or two and stayed there even after adding a morning latte back in.1 -
Oh snap. The weather has warmed up and we have a new grill.
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Going grocery shopping soon to stock up for the first week of May. It definitely is BBQ season!1
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Yo!
I put a sticky up at the top with the other challenge so, if yours gets buried in the mess, you can just go in that thread and click the link to this one without having to dig around for it if it's not on the front page.
Happy MEATing!
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I have to confess I’ll actually be starting Meaty May a day late as I forgot it was 1st May today and wasn’t prepared!1
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melmerritt33 wrote: »I have to confess I’ll actually be starting Meaty May a day late as I forgot it was 1st May today and wasn’t prepared!
Better luck tomorrow!
So WHO actually started today ~ and how did it go?
We had a lot of folks signing up. But today is pretty quiet.
I'm already 11 days in. Working out the kinks with the histamine issue. I feel AMAZING sometimes, and sometimes, just... not. It's been my norm for a long time, I think, to not feel good. But the AMAZING part is pretty new!
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I'm doing meaty may! However I am a day ahead of you all and yesterday was the 1st so I am on day 2. Going good so far :-)2
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