Meaty May
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I’m with cricket in wanting to be my best self. For me part of that is also dropping some fat. I too have many digestive issues and (along the histamine line) also a mast cell disease. I produce too many and sometimes they release a bunch of histamine (it’s called mastocytosis). There are various food/drink triggers and everyone is different. Ya never know when it’s going to happen. Meat (except for shellfish) is at the top of the low histamine list.
https://www.histamineintolerance.org.uk/about/the-food-diary/the-food-list/
Thank you for the link. I couldn't get it to work on my phone, but I will definitely be checking it out on my computer. I'm digging deeper into this after just having a reaction to what I THOUGHT was just a plain burger patty. First, I asked my husband what the date was on the package to see how fresh the meat was. Next, I asked him: "Are you sure those are JUST beef?"
Nope. "Natural flavors". Geeez...
If you feel like sharing, I'm interested in hearing what led up to your diagnosis. What type of reaction do you experience? I went from being completely fine and relaxed, to my heart pounding as I sat perfectly still eating that burger. My nose got a little stuffy and started running a little bit. Then I started to feel kind of anxious. And a little short of breath while I was talking to my husband about it.
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cricketpower wrote: »I'm enjoying all of the posts here about sodium/electrolytes. We've got a good supply of a product called "Lyteshow" we used to use for hangovers. Since the drinking days are long gone, it's just been sitting here. I used it a few times today since I've had a headache off & on all day, and it REALLY does make a huge difference in how I feel. No sweeteners or anything -- just put a capful in water or whatever.
Today was Day 6 of transitioning back to keto. I can't afford to have carb flu, brain fog, or any sort of nastiness in May. I've got finals & then 3 weeks off before summer semester ~ and I need that time to be enjoyable and productive. So let's just get this crap out of the way right now. Lol.
Had strong (STRONG), insistent, cravings for heavy cream in my coffee and to sit down and shell a bag of peanuts this afternoon. I know that those are both problem foods for me, and this was just further evidence of that. Instead I had two burgers with one cheese slice between. And Lyteshow. Crisis averted!
Interestingly, you will find that many carnivores (myself included) do not stress or supplement electrolytes. There are many who don't even salt their meat. It doesn't hurt, but it doesn't seem to be as big of a deal as many people assume it will be. My theory is that meat has the correct balance of salt, potassium, etc. that you need and it helps your body balance what it needs. When adapted, your body will preserve the amount of electrolytes you need and not flush them out in your urine.
Now, with all that said, I am currently including one non-carnivore substance in my regular diet. I am drinking a bunch of Powerade Zeros. It has artificial sweetener, which is an issue, and artificial colors (something that is definitely not part of my normal diet). But, I am routinely sweating out gallons of fluid (not an exaggeration), and those help me keep my fluid consumption up and replace some of the excess electrolytes that I am losing to sweat. So, it's not something I can really judge right now. But, you might find less need for the electrolyte supplementation than you suspect.2 -
Thanks, @FIT_Goat -- good to know. I have done keto ~3-4 month stretches in the past, but never specifically supplemented salt or any other electrolytes. I also don't remember horrific transitions, but I wonder if they could have gone more smoothly if I had. Certainly lots of believers here who say so.
I do know I used this Lyteshow in my silver tequila / plain sparkling water combo back in my keto drinking days, and it helped me to not have a hangover. Definitely used it the next day if I hit it a little too hard & DID have a hangover.
Other than that, I have used it when my heart is doing strange things (palpitations). It stops it. This is something I think I really only deal with on LC/keto. And maybe only when I am making the transition. My theory has always been low potassium. It has sodium, potassium, magnesium, chloride, and zinc.
Anyway, I think it's fantastic to have folks like you here who have already walked this road. I appreciate it. And it makes total sense that we would not *always* need to supplement. I'm just thankful for all of the posts here about sodium, too, because it reminded me that I have this stuff here & it DOES make me feel better.1 -
cricketpower wrote: »
If you feel like sharing, I'm interested in hearing what led up to your diagnosis. What type of reaction do you experience? I went from being completely fine and relaxed, to my heart pounding as I sat perfectly still eating that burger. My nose got a little stuffy and started running a little bit. Then I started to feel kind of anxious. And a little short of breath while I was talking to my husband about it.
Of course. And that sounds like a nasty experience, btw! Oddly enough spots on my skin had me take a trip to the dr. Then I had a couple of skin biopsies. They found I had a huge amount of mast cells in my biopsy. That led to a bone marrow biopsy to ensure I didn’t yet have them in my organs or replicating in my marrow. I get a bone marrow biopsy every 2-3 years now. My oncologist/ phlebotomist connected the dots for me. Beer makes me super stuffy. Wine makes me flush and I get congested. Bug bites are Superbad. I’ve had mosquito bites spread to dime size or larger. Gnat bites swell too. I have terrible inflammation but that’s probably a side effect. All histamine related and all triggers for me. It’s all stuff I considered part of my personal norm.1 -
The good news is that the electrolyte issue is a pretty quick fix --- drink some in the moment if you think it'll help, and if not it's not a big deal to have some extra salt on board.1
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My reason for doing this is for elimination. Although my BG is where my original doc wanted it to be with meds, it is still not optimal. I started eliminating foods to see what might be causing it to continue to be a bit elevated. Of course, I started with the ones I hear so much about even though I really like them - nuts and dairy. I saw some improvement and was getting quite encouraged. I tried various things for a couple days and seemed to have no issues except peanuts initially. However, after a few weeks, my BG started going back up. I think some of the foods might be affecting me but in a more delayed fashion. I am looking at this as more of the ultimate elimination diet to reset and do a better job at reintroducing the foods I have decided I would like to keep.
I think I will be eliminating nuts regardless. I have come to the realization that despite having great self control in many areas, moderation when eating nuts is not one of them. For those of you who remember the ad campaign for a certain crappy carbage food of "I bet ya can't eat just one" is how I am with nuts - ALL nuts. Therefore, they must be eliminated.
I am hoping cheese will be able to come back into my diet. There are just too many things I make on a regular basis that use cheese.
The only vegetation I am hoping to be able bring back in are peppers (jalapeños, serranos, habeñeros, etc.) because I like my spicy food and the flavors of peppers - especially when fresh picked from my garden. I also would like to keep spinach just because it makes a great base for meats that I make to soak up some of the grease. I could live without the rest, but I am not going to eliminate anything long term just to fit some template. I eat this way for my health. I will base my decisions solely on that in the long term.2 -
cstehansen wrote: »The only vegetation I am hoping to be able bring back in are peppers (jalapeños, serranos, habeñeros, etc.) because I like my spicy food and the flavors of peppers - especially when fresh picked from my garden.
I was a long-term pepper-head myself. There was no upper limit to how hot things were. Well, there was an upper limit but it was extremely rare for me to find a place that served food that spicy. Sadly, cutting them out for so long has really dented my tolerance levels. I still love peppers and spicy foods. They are not good for my gut, and I regret eating them every time. I will have some, from time to time, and my wife will shake her head and remind me about how I will be complaining tomorrow about my choices today, but I still love that burn.
I haven't had any in months and months, but I doubt I could promise to never have some again. When the impulse strikes, it's hard for me to pass on. And, I model my diet after the Bear's diet. He allowed coffee and hot sauce, so those are fine. And, so I am willing to "flex" a little and let some plant matter in for an extra kick of heat.2 -
I went through my Paleo NUTS nut stage years ago, and finally got past it. They had to go completely for awhile.
Then at some point I started eating peanuts for the first time in years. There is something about roasted & salted in the shell that makes me over-do it, and my digestion does NOT thank me. In any way. Plus they make my heart pound. So, they're off the menu.
I am finishing a bag of raw almonds, 1 oz at a time, once or maybe twice a day, and they'll be gone before May. I suspect I'll find that they aren't helping my digestion, either.1 -
Signs that I am feeling good and ketones have officially kicked in:
1) Cooking ahead and setting myself up for success
2) Feeling like taking food pics again
3) Making my boring food pic really nerdy by spelling out "HI" with my eggs10 -
Pre-peeled even!1
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cricketpower wrote: »
Signs that I am feeling good and ketones have officially kicked in:
1) Cooking ahead and setting myself up for success
2) Feeling like taking food pics again
3) Making my boring food pic really nerdy by spelling out "HI" with my eggs
Very nerdy... I like it!2 -
FYI, If you do this diet, you might have to take vitamin C/ascorbic acid since there are very limited animal sources0
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Keto_Vampire wrote: »FYI, If you do this diet, you might have to take vitamin C/ascorbic acid since there are very limited animal sources
This is false. Fresh meat, all by itself, will prevent and even reverse scurvy. There is no need for vitamin C while eating carnivore. Meat itself is antiscorbic. This is a huge surprise to almost everyone, and it was one of the primary reasons I originally went carnivore (to see if it really was true).
Now, people can take whatever calms their fears, but it is recommended that people stop any and all supplementation that isn't prescribed for a previously documented deficiency.3 -
Keto_Vampire wrote: »FYI, If you do this diet, you might have to take vitamin C/ascorbic acid since there are very limited animal sources
This is false. Fresh meat, all by itself, will prevent and even reverse scurvy. There is no need for vitamin C while eating carnivore. Meat itself is antiscorbic. This is a huge surprise to almost everyone, and it was one of the primary reasons I originally went carnivore (to see if it really was true).
Now, people can take whatever calms their fears, but it is recommended that people stop any and all supplementation that isn't prescribed for a previously documented deficiency.
Can you expand on this further? I thought most meat (except chicken, perhaps*) had all of our needed nutrients with the exception of vitamin C. So then meat reduces our need for vitamin C? How does that work?
*I always thought part of the logic behind chicken noodle soup for sick days was because of the vitamin C contained in chicken broth.0 -
Interestingly, you will find that many carnivores (myself included) do not stress or supplement electrolytes. There are many who don't even salt their meat. It doesn't hurt, but it doesn't seem to be as big of a deal as many people assume it will be. My theory is that meat has the correct balance of salt, potassium, etc. that you need and it helps your body balance what it needs. When adapted, your body will preserve the amount of electrolytes you need and not flush them out in your urine.
I am curious if this is true for keto adapted as well. I have been fairly strict keto since October 2016 - under 20 g of carbs net per day and many days I am under 10. I could always just try dropping the sodium tracking and quit doing the Lite Salt in the iced tea to get me up to my goal when I check totals at the end of the day.
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*I always thought part of the logic behind chicken noodle soup for sick days was because of the vitamin C contained in chicken broth.
Hmmm, I've always thought that it was the salt. I'm interested in learning more too!
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Antiscorbutic = efficacious against scurvy.
There are several interesting things that come up when you google "fresh meat antiscorbutic". Here's a good one to get you started:
http://www.empiri.ca/2017/02/c-is-for-carnivore.html?m=10 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »Can you expand on this further? I thought most meat (except chicken, perhaps*) had all of our needed nutrients with the exception of vitamin C. So then meat reduces our need for vitamin C? How does that work?
*I always thought part of the logic behind chicken noodle soup for sick days was because of the vitamin C contained in chicken broth.
Meat does have all of our needed nutrients, and meat also does not include vitamin C. When you are eating enough meat, vitamin C is not a needed nutrient. It's weird, it's crazy, but it's true. It's been confirmed in clinical trials (http://www.jbc.org/content/87/3/651.full.pdf) and in tons of examples from personal experience. The mechanism is complicated, but essentially the nutrients in meat bypass the metabolic processes that require vitamin C. Also, carbs and vitamin C compete for the same metabolic pathways. So, the higher your carbs, the more you need.
As for chicken soup, I've never heard the claim that it was the vitamin C in the soup that helps for cold. I haven't heard of any specific mechanism, although I suspect it's the hydration provided by the hot broth and the ease of consuming nutrients in soup form as opposed to solid form when sick. Vitamin C hasn't ever shown consistent benefits when it comes to preventing or curing cold, anyway.Interestingly, you will find that many carnivores (myself included) do not stress or supplement electrolytes. There are many who don't even salt their meat. It doesn't hurt, but it doesn't seem to be as big of a deal as many people assume it will be. My theory is that meat has the correct balance of salt, potassium, etc. that you need and it helps your body balance what it needs. When adapted, your body will preserve the amount of electrolytes you need and not flush them out in your urine.
I am curious if this is true for keto adapted as well. I have been fairly strict keto since October 2016 - under 20 g of carbs net per day and many days I am under 10. I could always just try dropping the sodium tracking and quit doing the Lite Salt in the iced tea to get me up to my goal when I check totals at the end of the day.
I am nearly certain the same is true for keto as well. Once adapted, your body should be able to balance your electrolyte needs without external supplementation, outside of extreme conditions like sweating 6+ liters a day or flushing out tons of water when you transition to the low carb diet.2 -
Several interesting articles out there about using fresh horse meat or seal meat to cure scurvy before people died from it, when citrus fruits were not available. Fresh meat does contain some vitamin C, it's just so low that it doesn't show up on our labels. One person posted that their lamb meat label in Australia does show 2% vitamin C.0
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cricketpower wrote: »Several interesting articles out there about using fresh horse meat or seal meat to cure scurvy before people died from it, when citrus fruits were not available. Fresh meat does contain some vitamin C, it's just so low that it doesn't show up on our labels. One person posted that their lamb meat label in Australia does show 2% vitamin C.
I can't say I have had either horse nor seal.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »cricketpower wrote: »Several interesting articles out there about using fresh horse meat or seal meat to cure scurvy before people died from it, when citrus fruits were not available. Fresh meat does contain some vitamin C, it's just so low that it doesn't show up on our labels. One person posted that their lamb meat label in Australia does show 2% vitamin C.
I can't say I have had either horse nor seal.
Pretty sure you weren't traveling on any of the expeditions I was referring to.
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cstehansen wrote: »The only vegetation I am hoping to be able bring back in are peppers (jalapeños, serranos, habeñeros, etc.) because I like my spicy food and the flavors of peppers - especially when fresh picked from my garden.
I was a long-term pepper-head myself. There was no upper limit to how hot things were. Well, there was an upper limit but it was extremely rare for me to find a place that served food that spicy. Sadly, cutting them out for so long has really dented my tolerance levels. I still love peppers and spicy foods. They are not good for my gut, and I regret eating them every time. I will have some, from time to time, and my wife will shake her head and remind me about how I will be complaining tomorrow about my choices today, but I still love that burn.
I haven't had any in months and months, but I doubt I could promise to never have some again. When the impulse strikes, it's hard for me to pass on. And, I model my diet after the Bear's diet. He allowed coffee and hot sauce, so those are fine. And, so I am willing to "flex" a little and let some plant matter in for an extra kick of heat.
I have my hot sauces of choice, but nothing beats a good pepper straight from the garden. So much better than any you will find in a store. Fortunately, to this point, I have never had any negative reactions to them outside of eating an entire Thai pepper I had dried in one bite. I thought the heat from that might kill me. And for a moment I wished it would because the pain was substantial. My wife and daughter both found the incident amusing.2 -
@midwesterner85 I had never heard of chicken being high in vitamin C, so I thank you for the thought-provoking discussion.
It appears that no meat is "high" in vitamin C, comparatively speaking, although it does appear to be more concentrated in organ meats.
Did you know that many (most?) animals on Earth can synthesize their own vitamin C? Including some of the primates. Yes, chickens can. Swine. Ruminants. Rats & mice. Dogs & cats. The list goes on. I had no idea.
Strangely, we are among the group who cannot -- along with our friends, the guinea pig and capybara.1 -
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Keto_Vampire wrote: »FYI, If you do this diet, you might have to take vitamin C/ascorbic acid since there are very limited animal sources
This is false. Fresh meat, all by itself, will prevent and even reverse scurvy. There is no need for vitamin C while eating carnivore. Meat itself is antiscorbic. This is a huge surprise to almost everyone, and it was one of the primary reasons I originally went carnivore (to see if it really was true).
Now, people can take whatever calms their fears, but it is recommended that people stop any and all supplementation that isn't prescribed for a previously documented deficiency.
Well, when someone's gums continually bleed, wounds fail to heal, random bruises show up, etc. after being a carnivore for 4 weeks or so, he/she might have an idea as to why. I don't think people are going to actively throw thymus, spleen, etc. into a diet just to get vitamin C
BTW - chicken soup...Zinc (blocks intracellular adhesion molecule - binding site of rhinovirus) & electrolytes for "common cold". Not sure why people are confused with vit C content
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I ran into one these once and it scared me. All I could think of was R.O.U.S's from the Princess Bride.
I read somewhere that glucose competes with vitamin C. I think. If dietary glucose is high, like in the past when sailors lived on wheat and meat, then you need much higher levels of Vit. C. If your carbs are very low, can't get much lower than carnivore, your vit C needs drop.
I'm afraid I can't remember where I got that from.
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@kirkor Wait... did you... but... nevermind.
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Keto_Vampire wrote: »
Well, when someone's gums continually bleed, wounds fail to heal, random bruises show up, etc. after being a carnivore for 4 weeks or so, he/she might have an idea as to why.
But these things won't happen. These things don't happen. In fact, if someone was suffering from these very problems, an all meat diet would lead to their alleviation. You don't even need organ meats in your diet to avoid these things. Just muscle meat is enough. I've documented a period where I ate nothing but hamburger meat for over 30 days, on here, without any issues at all. And, that was after months of eating just meat and almost never having organs.
This scurvy issue has been debated at length. Addressing it and providing evidence was a huge part of Stefansson's work. The whole reason that they did the year-long meat-only experiment was to address and dismiss the claims that not eating plants (that is eating only meat) would lead to scurvy.
Ironically, I was in your shoes once. I was confronted with the claims about not needing vitamin C, and thought it was insane and certainly wrong. It was a large part of my original desire to try zerocarb. I even told my doctor, at the time, that I was going to try and give myself scurvy. I was half-convinced that it was all a joke, and I would end up getting scurvy. But, I was also willing to put my own body on the line to test it. I went in with a strict "no supplements" mindset. I avoided all processed foods, including hot sauces, because some of them used ascorbic acid. I didn't want any possible contamination of my diet. I also avoided all organ meats for the first few months. Eventually, I did allow liverwurst back into my diet, because liverwurst is awesome.
Did I get scurvy? Nope. Has anyone else who I've seen try this way of eating gotten scurvy? Nope. It's a non-issue. It's like worrying that giving up cigarettes will cause you to get lung cancer.7 -
I, too, have yet to come across a Carnivore who got scurvy.
Other than Goat, I've known a few others. A few here and a couple on another LC board. No scurvy.
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