Meaty May
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cricketpower wrote: »
Signs that I am feeling good and ketones have officially kicked in:
1) Cooking ahead and setting myself up for success
2) Feeling like taking food pics again
3) Making my boring food pic really nerdy by spelling out "HI" with my eggs
Very nerdy... I like it!2 -
FYI, If you do this diet, you might have to take vitamin C/ascorbic acid since there are very limited animal sources0
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Keto_Vampire wrote: »FYI, If you do this diet, you might have to take vitamin C/ascorbic acid since there are very limited animal sources
This is false. Fresh meat, all by itself, will prevent and even reverse scurvy. There is no need for vitamin C while eating carnivore. Meat itself is antiscorbic. This is a huge surprise to almost everyone, and it was one of the primary reasons I originally went carnivore (to see if it really was true).
Now, people can take whatever calms their fears, but it is recommended that people stop any and all supplementation that isn't prescribed for a previously documented deficiency.3 -
Keto_Vampire wrote: »FYI, If you do this diet, you might have to take vitamin C/ascorbic acid since there are very limited animal sources
This is false. Fresh meat, all by itself, will prevent and even reverse scurvy. There is no need for vitamin C while eating carnivore. Meat itself is antiscorbic. This is a huge surprise to almost everyone, and it was one of the primary reasons I originally went carnivore (to see if it really was true).
Now, people can take whatever calms their fears, but it is recommended that people stop any and all supplementation that isn't prescribed for a previously documented deficiency.
Can you expand on this further? I thought most meat (except chicken, perhaps*) had all of our needed nutrients with the exception of vitamin C. So then meat reduces our need for vitamin C? How does that work?
*I always thought part of the logic behind chicken noodle soup for sick days was because of the vitamin C contained in chicken broth.0 -
Interestingly, you will find that many carnivores (myself included) do not stress or supplement electrolytes. There are many who don't even salt their meat. It doesn't hurt, but it doesn't seem to be as big of a deal as many people assume it will be. My theory is that meat has the correct balance of salt, potassium, etc. that you need and it helps your body balance what it needs. When adapted, your body will preserve the amount of electrolytes you need and not flush them out in your urine.
I am curious if this is true for keto adapted as well. I have been fairly strict keto since October 2016 - under 20 g of carbs net per day and many days I am under 10. I could always just try dropping the sodium tracking and quit doing the Lite Salt in the iced tea to get me up to my goal when I check totals at the end of the day.
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*I always thought part of the logic behind chicken noodle soup for sick days was because of the vitamin C contained in chicken broth.
Hmmm, I've always thought that it was the salt. I'm interested in learning more too!
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Antiscorbutic = efficacious against scurvy.
There are several interesting things that come up when you google "fresh meat antiscorbutic". Here's a good one to get you started:
http://www.empiri.ca/2017/02/c-is-for-carnivore.html?m=10 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »Can you expand on this further? I thought most meat (except chicken, perhaps*) had all of our needed nutrients with the exception of vitamin C. So then meat reduces our need for vitamin C? How does that work?
*I always thought part of the logic behind chicken noodle soup for sick days was because of the vitamin C contained in chicken broth.
Meat does have all of our needed nutrients, and meat also does not include vitamin C. When you are eating enough meat, vitamin C is not a needed nutrient. It's weird, it's crazy, but it's true. It's been confirmed in clinical trials (http://www.jbc.org/content/87/3/651.full.pdf) and in tons of examples from personal experience. The mechanism is complicated, but essentially the nutrients in meat bypass the metabolic processes that require vitamin C. Also, carbs and vitamin C compete for the same metabolic pathways. So, the higher your carbs, the more you need.
As for chicken soup, I've never heard the claim that it was the vitamin C in the soup that helps for cold. I haven't heard of any specific mechanism, although I suspect it's the hydration provided by the hot broth and the ease of consuming nutrients in soup form as opposed to solid form when sick. Vitamin C hasn't ever shown consistent benefits when it comes to preventing or curing cold, anyway.Interestingly, you will find that many carnivores (myself included) do not stress or supplement electrolytes. There are many who don't even salt their meat. It doesn't hurt, but it doesn't seem to be as big of a deal as many people assume it will be. My theory is that meat has the correct balance of salt, potassium, etc. that you need and it helps your body balance what it needs. When adapted, your body will preserve the amount of electrolytes you need and not flush them out in your urine.
I am curious if this is true for keto adapted as well. I have been fairly strict keto since October 2016 - under 20 g of carbs net per day and many days I am under 10. I could always just try dropping the sodium tracking and quit doing the Lite Salt in the iced tea to get me up to my goal when I check totals at the end of the day.
I am nearly certain the same is true for keto as well. Once adapted, your body should be able to balance your electrolyte needs without external supplementation, outside of extreme conditions like sweating 6+ liters a day or flushing out tons of water when you transition to the low carb diet.2 -
Several interesting articles out there about using fresh horse meat or seal meat to cure scurvy before people died from it, when citrus fruits were not available. Fresh meat does contain some vitamin C, it's just so low that it doesn't show up on our labels. One person posted that their lamb meat label in Australia does show 2% vitamin C.0
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cricketpower wrote: »Several interesting articles out there about using fresh horse meat or seal meat to cure scurvy before people died from it, when citrus fruits were not available. Fresh meat does contain some vitamin C, it's just so low that it doesn't show up on our labels. One person posted that their lamb meat label in Australia does show 2% vitamin C.
I can't say I have had either horse nor seal.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »cricketpower wrote: »Several interesting articles out there about using fresh horse meat or seal meat to cure scurvy before people died from it, when citrus fruits were not available. Fresh meat does contain some vitamin C, it's just so low that it doesn't show up on our labels. One person posted that their lamb meat label in Australia does show 2% vitamin C.
I can't say I have had either horse nor seal.
Pretty sure you weren't traveling on any of the expeditions I was referring to.
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cstehansen wrote: »The only vegetation I am hoping to be able bring back in are peppers (jalapeños, serranos, habeñeros, etc.) because I like my spicy food and the flavors of peppers - especially when fresh picked from my garden.
I was a long-term pepper-head myself. There was no upper limit to how hot things were. Well, there was an upper limit but it was extremely rare for me to find a place that served food that spicy. Sadly, cutting them out for so long has really dented my tolerance levels. I still love peppers and spicy foods. They are not good for my gut, and I regret eating them every time. I will have some, from time to time, and my wife will shake her head and remind me about how I will be complaining tomorrow about my choices today, but I still love that burn.
I haven't had any in months and months, but I doubt I could promise to never have some again. When the impulse strikes, it's hard for me to pass on. And, I model my diet after the Bear's diet. He allowed coffee and hot sauce, so those are fine. And, so I am willing to "flex" a little and let some plant matter in for an extra kick of heat.
I have my hot sauces of choice, but nothing beats a good pepper straight from the garden. So much better than any you will find in a store. Fortunately, to this point, I have never had any negative reactions to them outside of eating an entire Thai pepper I had dried in one bite. I thought the heat from that might kill me. And for a moment I wished it would because the pain was substantial. My wife and daughter both found the incident amusing.2 -
@midwesterner85 I had never heard of chicken being high in vitamin C, so I thank you for the thought-provoking discussion.
It appears that no meat is "high" in vitamin C, comparatively speaking, although it does appear to be more concentrated in organ meats.
Did you know that many (most?) animals on Earth can synthesize their own vitamin C? Including some of the primates. Yes, chickens can. Swine. Ruminants. Rats & mice. Dogs & cats. The list goes on. I had no idea.
Strangely, we are among the group who cannot -- along with our friends, the guinea pig and capybara.1 -
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Keto_Vampire wrote: »FYI, If you do this diet, you might have to take vitamin C/ascorbic acid since there are very limited animal sources
This is false. Fresh meat, all by itself, will prevent and even reverse scurvy. There is no need for vitamin C while eating carnivore. Meat itself is antiscorbic. This is a huge surprise to almost everyone, and it was one of the primary reasons I originally went carnivore (to see if it really was true).
Now, people can take whatever calms their fears, but it is recommended that people stop any and all supplementation that isn't prescribed for a previously documented deficiency.
Well, when someone's gums continually bleed, wounds fail to heal, random bruises show up, etc. after being a carnivore for 4 weeks or so, he/she might have an idea as to why. I don't think people are going to actively throw thymus, spleen, etc. into a diet just to get vitamin C
BTW - chicken soup...Zinc (blocks intracellular adhesion molecule - binding site of rhinovirus) & electrolytes for "common cold". Not sure why people are confused with vit C content
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I ran into one these once and it scared me. All I could think of was R.O.U.S's from the Princess Bride.
I read somewhere that glucose competes with vitamin C. I think. If dietary glucose is high, like in the past when sailors lived on wheat and meat, then you need much higher levels of Vit. C. If your carbs are very low, can't get much lower than carnivore, your vit C needs drop.
I'm afraid I can't remember where I got that from.
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@kirkor Wait... did you... but... nevermind.
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Keto_Vampire wrote: »
Well, when someone's gums continually bleed, wounds fail to heal, random bruises show up, etc. after being a carnivore for 4 weeks or so, he/she might have an idea as to why.
But these things won't happen. These things don't happen. In fact, if someone was suffering from these very problems, an all meat diet would lead to their alleviation. You don't even need organ meats in your diet to avoid these things. Just muscle meat is enough. I've documented a period where I ate nothing but hamburger meat for over 30 days, on here, without any issues at all. And, that was after months of eating just meat and almost never having organs.
This scurvy issue has been debated at length. Addressing it and providing evidence was a huge part of Stefansson's work. The whole reason that they did the year-long meat-only experiment was to address and dismiss the claims that not eating plants (that is eating only meat) would lead to scurvy.
Ironically, I was in your shoes once. I was confronted with the claims about not needing vitamin C, and thought it was insane and certainly wrong. It was a large part of my original desire to try zerocarb. I even told my doctor, at the time, that I was going to try and give myself scurvy. I was half-convinced that it was all a joke, and I would end up getting scurvy. But, I was also willing to put my own body on the line to test it. I went in with a strict "no supplements" mindset. I avoided all processed foods, including hot sauces, because some of them used ascorbic acid. I didn't want any possible contamination of my diet. I also avoided all organ meats for the first few months. Eventually, I did allow liverwurst back into my diet, because liverwurst is awesome.
Did I get scurvy? Nope. Has anyone else who I've seen try this way of eating gotten scurvy? Nope. It's a non-issue. It's like worrying that giving up cigarettes will cause you to get lung cancer.7 -
I, too, have yet to come across a Carnivore who got scurvy.
Other than Goat, I've known a few others. A few here and a couple on another LC board. No scurvy.
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