Struggling with emotional issues after returning to LCHF
Violet_Flux
Posts: 481 Member
On Sunday January 6th we resumed the LCHF diet, after several months (perhaps nearly a year) of false starts. The previous 4 to 6 weeks we were especially careless about our food choices.
Since Sunday, we've had extremely poor sleep at night, due to interruptions by very vivid dreams and a frequent need to urinate. The dreams are troubling as, generally, we have been unaware of dreams for the past several months.
In addition, while awake we have been plagued by mood swings and emotional turmoil. Monday Jan 7, were extreme mood swings. Tuesday Jan 8, we were exhausted through most of the day, and felt highly dissociative. Wednesday Jan 9, were more mood swings, alternating between anger and despair. Yesterday we experienced a bit of mania and hyperactivity. Today we are back to mood swings, primarily anger and upset.
The only change in our routine or behavior which coincided with this turmoil, was the return to a carbohydrate-restricted diet.
LCHF is the only diet which has been successful for us so we are reluctant to abandon it, and it was highly successful for us in the past. We do not recall suffering these issues during our previous experiences with this diet regimine. We do suffer ongoing memory issues, but I am confident that if we had this experience in the past it would have been noteworthy enough to have been recorded in our diet log.
The situation today has reached a point where we cannot ignore it any longer, so I am here asking for help and advice.
I am hoping that some of the experts here may have suggestions on how we might be able to deal with this reaction, and if it can be mitigated, or if it might be temporary and will subside if we can perservere through it.
Thank you.
Since Sunday, we've had extremely poor sleep at night, due to interruptions by very vivid dreams and a frequent need to urinate. The dreams are troubling as, generally, we have been unaware of dreams for the past several months.
In addition, while awake we have been plagued by mood swings and emotional turmoil. Monday Jan 7, were extreme mood swings. Tuesday Jan 8, we were exhausted through most of the day, and felt highly dissociative. Wednesday Jan 9, were more mood swings, alternating between anger and despair. Yesterday we experienced a bit of mania and hyperactivity. Today we are back to mood swings, primarily anger and upset.
The only change in our routine or behavior which coincided with this turmoil, was the return to a carbohydrate-restricted diet.
LCHF is the only diet which has been successful for us so we are reluctant to abandon it, and it was highly successful for us in the past. We do not recall suffering these issues during our previous experiences with this diet regimine. We do suffer ongoing memory issues, but I am confident that if we had this experience in the past it would have been noteworthy enough to have been recorded in our diet log.
The situation today has reached a point where we cannot ignore it any longer, so I am here asking for help and advice.
I am hoping that some of the experts here may have suggestions on how we might be able to deal with this reaction, and if it can be mitigated, or if it might be temporary and will subside if we can perservere through it.
Thank you.
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Replies
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Violet, I only did a cursory peek at your diary. I'm sure you've remembered the sodium angle. What I see is that your calories are too low. Maybe your appetite is decreased but I would endeavor to eat a bit more. Low calories causes me supreme moodiness. Supreme! I'm not joking. I am SCARY.
Also, I notice that your fat intake is often lower than or close to protein, which in and of itself isn't necessary a thing, but at low calories it might be causing the fat to be too low. I know your protein is at that level (borderline low at least once). I think that while you are transitioning your body back into LCHF, you might want to add a little bit more fat. It will take care of the calorie issue (calories should be no less than 1200 and should perhaps be more. I can't be specific as I don't know your stats, but a keto calc can help here.) Our hormone regulation depends upon fat, and it sounds like your balance is struggling, probably because it's low. At least do this for a little while. I'm one to always say "don't eat if you aren't hungry" but that advice usually fits the mode for those who aren't feeling hungry but aren't having any problems.
See if that adjustment helps. I hope you get relief soon.
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Thank you baconslave for replying to my query.
I am uncertain how our appetite has been affected as I generally am not aware of it, but we had not considered the impact of insufficient caloric intake, nor that decreased fat intake might have that affect on the body or mind.
To be sure, while we have gained some weight recently, we are nowhere near the level we were at when originally embarking on the LCHF way of eating. That may not be a factor, but I believe the difference would be how much body fat is available to be metabolized then versus now?
Our sodium intake tends to be under-reported in the food diary, as both Violet and Viola use rather more salt with their meals than indicated; the quantity reported tends to be a token sum to note that it was used, rather than exactly how many grams. One of our doctors monitors our sodium levels at 6-month intervals and it has been acceptable, though during this diet transition there may be a short-term imbalance.
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I'm not sure how much of the mood issues are really LCHF or just sleep deprivation, it's hard to tell since the sleep issue is present.
Definitely salt if you think that might be an issue. Also, I know keto can cause drops in melatonin production. Plus, magnesium is required for melatonin uptake, so if water is flushed and magnesium is low, that would be a cause for sleep problems.
If it were me, I would try some ingested melatonin along with topical magnesium or an epsom salt bath before bed.2 -
Thank you tcunbeliever for your suggestions.
We have been supplementing with 300mg of Magnesium Citrate (taken orally) every evening prior to bed.
I will investigate melatonin supplementation.0 -
I'm not so sure that nightmares/dreams would have been noteworthy enough to be in your diet log but certainly I don't know for sure. I say this because I recall back in February or March of 2018 you posted being surprised you found ketostix in your house but did not recall eating a ketogenic diet. Yet prior to that (mid August 2017) you posted about your 1 year Ketoversary.
Yes. Memory issues are quite common with DID as are vivid dreams and/or disturbing nightmares. That said, when one starts eating a ketogenic diet, vivid dreams/nightmares seem to be a bit of a phenomenon. At least I've read several posts in various keto forums about people having and remembering the dreams/nightmares. Experiencing or recalling them was uncommon for them pre-keto. Between restarting keto/lchf and DID ( I recall you indicated in a previous post that is your diagnosis and apologize if I am incorrectly recalling that) you're sort of getting hit with a possible "double whammy".
I hope you get some resolution to your poor sleep. Keto does have the effect of feeling "wired" for some and disrupting sleep. For others, it seems sleep improves with keto lchf. Also call me overly cautious but you might want to research the use of melatonin prior to taking it especially if you are taking any other type of meds. Talk to your doc/docs about use of melatonin or any supplement.
I've not had much experience with doctors in my 65 years except in the last couple of months (had a heart attack). I've not walked into any doctor's office for anything that they haven't asked for a list of medications (right down to the dosage) INCLUDING supplements.Violet_Flux wrote: »On Sunday January 6th we resumed the LCHF diet, after several months (perhaps nearly a year) of false starts. The previous 4 to 6 weeks we were especially careless about our food choices.
Since Sunday, we've had extremely poor sleep at night, due to interruptions by very vivid dreams and a frequent need to urinate. The dreams are troubling as, generally, we have been unaware of dreams for the past several months.
In addition, while awake we have been plagued by mood swings and emotional turmoil. Monday Jan 7, were extreme mood swings. Tuesday Jan 8, we were exhausted through most of the day, and felt highly dissociative. Wednesday Jan 9, were more mood swings, alternating between anger and despair. Yesterday we experienced a bit of mania and hyperactivity. Today we are back to mood swings, primarily anger and upset.
The only change in our routine or behavior which coincided with this turmoil, was the return to a carbohydrate-restricted diet.
LCHF is the only diet which has been successful for us so we are reluctant to abandon it, and it was highly successful for us in the past. We do not recall suffering these issues during our previous experiences with this diet regimine. We do suffer ongoing memory issues, but I am confident that if we had this experience in the past it would have been noteworthy enough to have been recorded in our diet log.
The situation today has reached a point where we cannot ignore it any longer, so I am here asking for help and advice.
I am hoping that some of the experts here may have suggestions on how we might be able to deal with this reaction, and if it can be mitigated, or if it might be temporary and will subside if we can perservere through it.
Thank you.
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Medications and caffeine affect us differently when we are consistently low-carb / keto. That is something to consider, as well.
(If you are consuming caffeine) you can cut back on that and see how you feel. Obviously any medication adjustments would be discussed with your doctors.
I hope you are feeling better soon!2 -
Thank you kpk54, your memory is excellent and you are correct about our diagnosis.
Your post reminds me that there are documented studies demonstrating that in DID, different 'personalities' can present different physiological responses to medications. This leads me to wonder if we are now experiencing a different response to the diet than our former 'main personality'.
That person, Stephanie, is no longer with us in any way, and those who are here now were primarily dormant in the past. Violet who is most-often present has only been active for approximately thirteen months, and Viola even less, roughly seven months since she awoke. Neither are present currently, due to the crisis we find ourselves in.
cricketpower, thank you for that observation. We do drink tea on a daily basis, and Viola drinks a caffeinated diet soda. We will discuss cutting back or eliminating caffeine, to see if that makes a difference.2 -
Thanks again everyone for your advice and suggestions and all.
Today's crisis has settled down and we're gonna have a good look at all this. Definitely gonna cut the tea and soda for a while, see how that goes. And we'll try to get more calories in, and get the macros a little better wrt fat & protien.
Also gonna discuss it with our therapist next week, even if we are feeling better by then, cos this week has been a real bag of *kittens*. I dunno what actually happened this morning that things got so out of hand, but we really appreciate everyone here being so understanding and accepting and helpful.
Sorry if this has been a really wierd thread or whatever. I know this is for LCHF / Keto talk, and not for crazy stuff, but I guess she figured there was some overlap or cause/effect stuff that maybe was related.6 -
Violet_Flux wrote: »Thanks again everyone for your advice and suggestions and all.
Today's crisis has settled down and we're gonna have a good look at all this. Definitely gonna cut the tea and soda for a while, see how that goes. And we'll try to get more calories in, and get the macros a little better wrt fat & protien.
Also gonna discuss it with our therapist next week, even if we are feeling better by then, cos this week has been a real bag of *kittens*. I dunno what actually happened this morning that things got so out of hand, but we really appreciate everyone here being so understanding and accepting and helpful.
Sorry if this has been a really wierd thread or whatever. I know this is for LCHF / Keto talk, and not for crazy stuff, but I guess she figured there was some overlap or cause/effect stuff that maybe was related.
Oh please! Everyone here is my LC Fam. We do for family. Besides, it is technically a LC topic. This is a lifestyle. Life is going to barge in and make us have to troubleshoot. That's what we're here for.
I hope some of our comments/suggestions/advice are found to be helpful.
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I am back again with an update and a question.
We have uncovered this morning a possible (psychological) cause for the past week's difficulties.
This has led me to question:
Is it possible to benefit from the carbohydrate-reduced diet if it is only enforced six days of the week? The seventh day would be open for unrestricted carbohydrates.
Our current understanding of the science behind the diet, is that strict adherence is required otherwise the body will fail to converto a 'fat burning metabolism'. However we are facing some issues (which Violet feels may be too "wierd" to share) which may require us to take a more lenient approach. I can elaborate on those issues if necessary.
Thank you again.0 -
Hey folks - so it won't let me delete our previous post or edit it or whatever.
It looks like we've uncovered some issues about the whole diet thing that we gotta really reconsider. Like basically without everyone on-board and in agreement, it's kinda abusive to force some of the parts into it without their consent?
Not saying we're giving up or whatever, but we gotta figure out how to do it so that noone feels forced or trapped or abused or whatever.
If anyone wants us to explain we can, but otherwise "its complicated" lol.
Thanks for all your help and suggestions and stuff, and sorry for bringing our drama and crazytalk here.2 -
I have 2 friends who "carb cycle". I believe I've seen posts here of people who do as well.
One of my friends does it as part of her body building regime, I'm not 100% sure why the other does. However they both have a set number of days with very low carbs and a set day or two with a higher amount.
I'm sure there are others here who do or who have experience with it.3 -
How incredibly difficult that must be to navigate. I agree that carb cycling can work, especially in conjunction with exercise. Is there a particular reason one is against low carb? Would presenting evidence for it be effective?1
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In a healthy metabolism both pathways are always available for cellular energy - glucose and ketone. So, you don't have to do anything to convert to "fat burning metabolism" as it's part of the normal human body.
As for the carb cycling (6 days LC, 1 day HC), yes, that is still going to give you much of the benefits of LC (reduced insulin, more insulin sensitivity, appetite suppression) and it's totally appropriate particularly if it helps with adherence over time.
I carb cycle sometimes (not this month) and have two words of caution. One, just be aware that you may have food cravings return after the HC day. For me they definitely kick in, but as long as I'm prepared for them I can still stay on track. Two, be aware that water weight will fluctuate after the HC day. So you will likely wake up the next day several pounds heavier just from water and don't let it make you feel like the overall plan is not working. You may want to make the morning of the HC day your weekly weigh in since that will likely be the most stable water weight time for at carb cycling schedule like you are planning.3 -
Hi @Cadori - we're gonna investigate carb cycling, and we are still doing excercise still which is the one thing we haven't messed up yet.
The part who caused last week's crisis isn't against low-carb specifically, and sadly isn't easy to 'reason' with. I still got a lot to learn about this stuff.
Putting the details in spoiler tags just in case.Basically we're dealing with a part who is a 6 yo girl. She spent 40+ years trapped inside, reliving her trauma of being abused and beaten. The past 8 or 10 months she's finally started to learn that things are better now, and there are fun things like cookies etc that she can enjoy.tl;dr - we gotta work more with our therapist and make more progress with internal communication, resolve some of those issues, to get things more aligned on the diet front.
So with the lowcarb diet, I was like, "No we can't have any cookies. No I can't tell you when you can have a cookie. Sometime in the future." and to her mind, no cookies 'now' meant 'no cookies ever again'. She then thought that meant that the 'nice' stuff was over and she would have to go back into re-living trauma again.
That triggered another, stronger, scarier part, who was raising havoc with the mind & body. It's all very complicated and convoluted, but makes sense from a sort of child-like dream-logic angle?
The big picture is, there's more than just her - there's many more, and unless we can work out an arrangement that everyone agrees to and we can all work with, it's probably not gonna fly. And forcing others to be on a diet without their agreement is borderline abusive.
Finally, most of the younger parts don't understand that we share a body. They only see their inside-self which isn't heavy, and anyways they're kids and kids shouldn't be dieting. So it's not that they don't want us to diet, and they don't want us to be unhealthy and fat. They just don't grasp that these things are connected at all.
The kicker is none of this was a problem before the breakdown, because back then, all these parts were basically locked deep inside, trapped with their own trauma and unaware of the outside world. Now they're waking, getting a taste of nice things for the first time ever, and of course they don't want that to be taken away again.
An entirely separate issue is older parts who do understand all this, but simply don't care. They don't have tantrums, but they are capable of simply taking control of the body, blacking me out, and eating what they want.
Yesterday, while I was absent, two older parts made the decision to break the diet. They went to the grocery store and bought cookie-mix, and in an instant, all the physical and mental problems and stress were gone and we felt 100x better. Haven't actually even made the cookies yet, but just knowing we will soon was enough to end the crisis.
It's no wonder so many folks with DID also have eating disorders of one kind or another.7 -
Thanks for that info @tcunbeliever. Right now we were figuring on only weighing-in monthly, but keeping the water-fluctuation in mind we'll try and organize things around that. We haven't decided yet what the actual schedule will be, everything is still really up in the air for now. It may not even be something we can keep to a schedule, it may be the high-carb day just happens when it happens.0
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So something that's been important for me over the years is to make this a way of eating and a lifestyle not a diet. I've shared before I'm not diabetic, I don't have high blood pressure, I so don't have some of the health issues people combat using Low Carb eating.
My focus is on low carb but I know there will be moments in my life that aren't. I don't sweat those moments. When it comes to things like cookies, I remind myself that they are ALWAYS THERE. It's not hard for me to go to the store to get what I need to make them, that kind of stuff is plentiful and frankly, not even that special. So I don't HAVE to have it right now, I can get it at any time. When I make a choice not to be low carb, hopefully I am doing it for a special reason.
So, for what it's worth, if you in your situation are able to step out of an all or nothing mindset, you might find success.5 -
What @mmultanen suggests is very similar to what I was thinking. Perhaps all of you (the adults) could agree to a common calorie deficit and take turns planning the menu and cooking. I would think the 6 year old has some adult imposed boundries a might be cooperative with cookies within her calorie amount?
It is not unusual in a household to share planning, shopping and cooking responsibilities or to have to give and take on both mealtimes and menu.2 -
Thank you @mmultanen and @kpk54 for the suggestions & advice. I gotta process this some more and we'll be going through it all with our therapist this week.
All-or-nothing thinking is always a problem for us in lots of ways so that's something we have to try to get past & watch out for. It's hard tho cos when we're in it, we don't realize it? Like to us it feels like it's logical and correct and nothing seems wrong. For now, just the knowledge that there's gonna be cookies sometime soon has fixed things, and it's kinda freaky how sudden and powerful that change was.
I'm not sure if sharing responsibilities around planning and cooking is something that'll work for us cos our system isn't really set up that way. But we can probably come up with some agreements or plans about when the 'treats' will happen, like at the start of each week maybe we can pick a day for the week ahead.
We've also been trying to steer away from food-based 'treats' entirely, like get them excited about other things, but that's a slow process and we gotta do it with each of them one at a time.
TMI in spoiler tags.We don't actually have any 'adults' who're active on a regular basis, which is a whole different problem.
There's three of us who interact with the outside world most of the time... two of us, lets say, we're old enough to drive, but not buy a drink lol. And the third is just a kid. The three of us share all the 'real life' stuff, like work and chores, groceries, banking, and all that boring stuff. Well, two of us share all that boring stuff, the kid just watches cartoons when she's here.
The part who started this thread is mature, but she only gets involved when we're in a crisis and she thinks we're gonna get hurt, or hurt ourself, or stuff like that. Normally she has nothing to do with the outside world.
One thing I said on my newsfeed but I wanna say here too - We really, really appreciate all the help and support we've gotten here. You're all really kind and supportive and accepting and it means a whole lot to us. I don't think we'd still be here trying to fight this weight thing, if not for the great people here in this forum. You're all really wonderful, awesome folks and we are super lucky to be here.7 -
One suggestion for the cookie monster--make low carb versions, like this: https://www.wholesomeyum.com/recipes/oatmeal-cookies/7
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That makes sense. Thinking "Oh, I can just have it tomorrow" has helped me in the past.Violet_Flux wrote: »For now, just the knowledge that there's gonna be cookies sometime soon has fixed things, and it's kinda freaky how sudden and powerful that change was.Violet_Flux wrote: »We've also been trying to steer away from food-based 'treats' entirely, like get them excited about other things, but that's a slow process and we gotta do it with each of them one at a time.
This is good too. We try to do this with our kids, reward with fun activities, not food. We still get them food treats sometimes, but not as the default.2 -
The first few months on keto I found myself crying daily for no real reason...I had marvelous energy, pounds were melting off...but I was sobbing on and off all day long. I stuck with it and eventually that resolved; and in time my weight loss slowed down as I got close to goal weight.
Much later I learned that hormones are stored in fat and are released into your system as they are burned off. For me, that explained the crying jags as I initially lost weight very quickly. It was a very, very emotional time for me, also very cathartic and felt like I was releasing all kinds of baggage. I just got myself through it, even got myself some therapy, and now it seems like it all made sense - physically and emotionally.9 -
Violet_Flux wrote: »On Sunday January 6th we resumed the LCHF diet, after several months (perhaps nearly a year) of false starts. The previous 4 to 6 weeks we were especially careless about our food choices.
Since Sunday, we've had extremely poor sleep at night, due to interruptions by very vivid dreams and a frequent need to urinate. The dreams are troubling as, generally, we have been unaware of dreams for the past several months.
In addition, while awake we have been plagued by mood swings and emotional turmoil. Monday Jan 7, were extreme mood swings. Tuesday Jan 8, we were exhausted through most of the day, and felt highly dissociative. Wednesday Jan 9, were more mood swings, alternating between anger and despair. Yesterday we experienced a bit of mania and hyperactivity. Today we are back to mood swings, primarily anger and upset.
The only change in our routine or behavior which coincided with this turmoil, was the return to a carbohydrate-restricted diet.
LCHF is the only diet which has been successful for us so we are reluctant to abandon it, and it was highly successful for us in the past. We do not recall suffering these issues during our previous experiences with this diet regimine. We do suffer ongoing memory issues, but I am confident that if we had this experience in the past it would have been noteworthy enough to have been recorded in our diet log.
The situation today has reached a point where we cannot ignore it any longer, so I am here asking for help and advice.
I am hoping that some of the experts here may have suggestions on how we might be able to deal with this reaction, and if it can be mitigated, or if it might be temporary and will subside if we can perservere through it.
Thank you.
@Violet_Flux I remember my first 90 days was kind of like that when I got serious about about using Keto to reverse my rate of death but that was over 4 years ago. I did not log anything but my morning weights and they are now gone. Our changing hormones can be butt kicking on this WOE per my family even 4 years later their memories are still vivid of what I was like to live with before, during the first 90 days and the four years since. The kids (16 at the time) tell tall tales about me in the early days. I remember going into work one day and googling "Dying from Coconut Oil" when the detox stage was so strong.
Being 63 and with my life fading fast I just stuck with it because I knew the end was not going to be good if I did NOT. Because I got pain relief by day 30 it made it easier to power through the vast changes in my body moving from burning carbs to burning mainly ketones.
I have no advice because we are all different in times like these.
Best of success.4 -
Ages ago right after I joined this forum, I could probably dig it out of here if I spend long enough, there was a thread about how for many people, low carb eating calmed their emotions, or gave them a general sense of calmness and improved their focus etc. I read it and remember thinking "huh. doesn't apply to me".
Last week after the rest of the family was in bed and everything was quiet I found myself sitting on the couch thinking "hum. this is restful. I feel calm and relaxed."
THAT IS NOT MY DEFAULT. I'm a bit hummingbird like...always going, always doing, sometimes scattered, usually loud. That thread popped into my head and I wondered if I am now one of those people who will begin talking about the calming benefits of low carb. Maybe it just took my body 4 years to achieve it.
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I eat keto but my husband just tries to eat less carbs and my mom (who lives with us) loves all carbs. So I usually eat protein and veg and just add carbs to their meal (potato, rice etc) as desired. If i make something like tacos or spaghetti, i put my meat and sauce over cauli rice instead of tortillas or pasta.1
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Thanks again everyone for your suggestions and advice and support!
We worked on this at therapy today and will be working on it again next week too. It looks like for now we're gonna aim at doing lowcarb 6 days a week, and the 7th day will be open for treats or whatever, if necessary.
We might not even need to eat them, but just having the possibility or whatever, having it as an option, might just be enough most of the time.
:fingers crossed:8 -
Knowing something is there if you need it, but then never actually needing it is a pretty good feeling.3
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Just having the possibility of cookies might make the 'younger' ones happier if they know it is available to be made, in the cupboard. Having a mix or recipe might be the smart idea because it is more work and less simple than just grabbing cookies out of a box. What about a keto mug cake mix? you could even have it all premixed dry ingred. in a baggie with instructions so it is easier to do than something off plan. The carb cycling sounds like a good plan to try. We all want to be supportive as possible in this forum, so vent away. We may not always understand, but we can have compassion.4
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Low carb can play havoc with several kinds of medications, so if you're on anything regular it's probably worth speaking to your doctor about that. Here is a useful article (but, of course, disregard if it doesn't apply to you)
https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/diagnosis-diet/201803/ketogenic-diets-and-psychiatric-medications
Otherwise, I have no other advice but just to urge all of you to be gentle with yourselves. You're obviously doing the best you can with navigating diet and health and that deserves to be celebrated.3 -
I would like to add that any transition period is complicated. I find the transition week to low carb always hard to adjust, sleep is hard, and the need to pee frequently is real and disruptive. It'a new set of rules one asks oneself to adhere and there is a lot of stress there which can trigger lots of things.
That said, I would also suggest monitoring your blood sugar if you can. I think once you are into the diet and your blood sugar and sleep are more adjusted it works wonders, but fluctuations as one is adjusting may be hard. I would say try to sleep extra, get some massages, extra water, and extra open air exercise.3
