Keto Sub Groups
DittoDan
Posts: 1,850 Member
In my blog titled: Blog #10 Keto: Abbreviations, Acronyms & Terminology I list exactly what the title states. I want to put another list inside that blog called "Keto Sub Groups".
I will list some of the popular ones and then I am wanting you to tweak/edit/add/delete/comment on what I wrote below. The sub-groups are like branches on a tree. The trunk is a broad general Ketogenic diet that is not limited, but adhere to keto adaption using Low Carb, High Fat and Medium Protein nutritional intake.
Keto (the broad normal definition)
Can eat 25 to 50 grams of carbs a day. Food types are broad, with few exceptions, as long as they meet their daily macro goals. May have to use an external device such as a Ketonix or ketones meter to determine the level of carbs you can eat to get into ketosis. Everybody has a different level.
Paleo Keto
This group restricts eating highly processes foods and dairy. Prefers organic and un-refined foods. May restrict certain types calorie free sweeteners.
Carnivore Keto
This group is doesn't eat plant based food with minor exceptions such as herb seasonings. Usually extreme low carb (less than 10 grams a day). High calorie meals are ok. With this low carb regimen, you don't need any external devices to tell you that you are Keto Adapted.
Vegan Keto
This group eats no meat or dairy. May have some difficulty getting enough protein. For fat, they can obtain from coconut oils and some nut oils.
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Some of the groups can be combined, for example, you can be a Paleo Vegan Keto, or a Paleo Carnivore Keto. But you can't be a Vegan Carnivore Keto (LOL!)
And I think there are athletes that do keto, but I am not sure what to call/define them. (please advise).
I KNOW I have left some out. Can you put yourself in one of these groups without reservation? Or do I need to add more? (probably).
I am just plain old Keto. Please tell me what group you would be in...
Thank you,
I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
I will list some of the popular ones and then I am wanting you to tweak/edit/add/delete/comment on what I wrote below. The sub-groups are like branches on a tree. The trunk is a broad general Ketogenic diet that is not limited, but adhere to keto adaption using Low Carb, High Fat and Medium Protein nutritional intake.
Keto (the broad normal definition)
Can eat 25 to 50 grams of carbs a day. Food types are broad, with few exceptions, as long as they meet their daily macro goals. May have to use an external device such as a Ketonix or ketones meter to determine the level of carbs you can eat to get into ketosis. Everybody has a different level.
Paleo Keto
This group restricts eating highly processes foods and dairy. Prefers organic and un-refined foods. May restrict certain types calorie free sweeteners.
Carnivore Keto
This group is doesn't eat plant based food with minor exceptions such as herb seasonings. Usually extreme low carb (less than 10 grams a day). High calorie meals are ok. With this low carb regimen, you don't need any external devices to tell you that you are Keto Adapted.
Vegan Keto
This group eats no meat or dairy. May have some difficulty getting enough protein. For fat, they can obtain from coconut oils and some nut oils.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~end~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Some of the groups can be combined, for example, you can be a Paleo Vegan Keto, or a Paleo Carnivore Keto. But you can't be a Vegan Carnivore Keto (LOL!)
And I think there are athletes that do keto, but I am not sure what to call/define them. (please advise).
I KNOW I have left some out. Can you put yourself in one of these groups without reservation? Or do I need to add more? (probably).
I am just plain old Keto. Please tell me what group you would be in...
Thank you,
I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
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Replies
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I would fall into the carnivore keto group, obviously. I would only note that most of us consider averaging under 5g of carbs a day (and that is total carbs... There's no fiber allowed in the carnivore world) to be the goal. Ten grams... That's just a truck-load of carbs. ;-)0
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I would fall into the carnivore keto group, obviously. I would only note that most of us consider averaging under 5g of carbs a day (and that is total carbs... There's no fiber allowed in the carnivore world) to be the goal. Ten grams... That's just a truck-load of carbs. ;-)
I was giving you a little wiggle room for those wayward cheeses. I'll adjust it.0 -
I do sometimes go over, with cheese or eggs or seasonings... But my weekly average is rarely above 3g/day. I don't actually have a limit, in the sense that I don't even count. I do know that the main group of folks like myself define zero-carb as an artistic expression and that anything under 5g that does not include plants is considered zero.0
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For the most part I think I am a paleo keto type creature-- or maybe primal keto is more accurate. I have been able to tolerate a bit of dairy here and there, with coconut and other healthy fats being my main fat source.
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BetterBalancedMe2015 wrote: »For the most part I think I am a paleo keto type creature-- or maybe primal keto is more accurate. I have been able to tolerate a bit of dairy here and there, with coconut and other healthy fats being my main fat source.
BB, What's the difference between Paleo & Primal?
Dan the Man from Michigan
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A lot of the athletes fall under CKD - clyclical keto diet
http://www.ruled.me/cyclical-ketogenic-diet-indepth-look/0 -
I think I am plain old Keto.0
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5:
Primal allows dairy, among other things.BetterBalancedMe2015 wrote: »For the most part I think I am a paleo keto type creature-- or maybe primal keto is more accurate. I have been able to tolerate a bit of dairy here and there, with coconut and other healthy fats being my main fat source.
BB, What's the difference between Paleo & Primal?
Dan the Man from Michigan
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Probably general keto... although I came here thinking I wasn't going to do keto at all, but according to your definitions, at a carb goal of 40 I'm in there. Where does Atkins fall?0
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General Keto here although my carbs are generally less then 10. But not carnivore keto since I do eat vegetables from time to time.0
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@Thinnerhill I think I'll change normal Keto to:
Can eat from 0 to 50 grams of carbs a day. Food types are broad, with few exceptions, as long as they meet their daily macro goals. May have to use an external device such as a Ketonix or ketones meter to determine the level of carbs you can eat to get into ketosis. Everybody has a different level.
That makes it more inclusive. Thanks for advise.
Dan the Man from Michigan
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I would fall into the carnivore keto group, obviously. I would only note that most of us consider averaging under 5g of carbs a day (and that is total carbs... There's no fiber allowed in the carnivore world) to be the goal. Ten grams... That's just a truck-load of carbs. ;-)
Ok here is new proposal:
Carnivore Keto
This group is doesn't eat plant based food with minor exceptions such as herb seasonings. Usually extreme low carb (less than 5 grams a day). High calorie meals are ok. With this low carb regimen, you don't need any external devices to tell you that you are Keto Adapted.
Thank you!
Dan the Man from Michigan
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A lot of the athletes fall under CKD - clyclical keto diet
http://www.ruled.me/cyclical-ketogenic-diet-indepth-look/
Thank you JPW...
Cyclical Ketogenic Diet or CKD
A complex Keto diet for advanced body builders used for maximum muscle growth. It cycles the carb intakes from low to high around an intense workout. There is also another similar workout/body building regimen called, "Targeted Ketogenic Diet (TKD)". It is also known for eating carbs before intense workouts. Both diets are normal Keto diets when not doing workouts.
I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
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I'm at basic Keto at this point, as I come to my maintenance stage I might be more of a carnivore/paleo WOE. I need to see where my veggies at with some tummy problems. All I want to do is drop all processed foods. I will add FODMAP friendly fruits and veggies. So I think there should be FODMAP category as well. Some of us just can't tolerate healthy greens
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Wishy-washy keto: Those of use who have every intention of staying keto but keep wandering off to the siren call of carbs so are cyclical by accident....but still plan not to be.
Oh, wait. Thst probably shouldn't be an official group.0 -
Ok here is new proposal:
Carnivore Keto
This group is doesn't eat plant based food with minor exceptions such as herb seasonings. Usually extreme low carb (less than 5 grams a day). High calorie meals are ok. With this low carb regimen, you don't need any external devices to tell you that you are Keto Adapted.
The works for me. Honestly, the first one wasn't really bad either. I just know that someone, somewhere, once said "5g" as a cutoff for where 0g really started. Truth be told, everyone I know who actually does it wouldn't even know if they went over it. They stopped (most of them) bothering to count animal-based carbs.0 -
Wishy-washy keto: Those of use who have every intention of staying keto but keep wandering off to the siren call of carbs so are cyclical by accident....but still plan not to be.
Oh, wait. Thst probably shouldn't be an official group.
I don't know... maybe it should. Honestly, there's probably a lot of people who fit best there.
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5:
Primal allows dairy, among other things.BetterBalancedMe2015 wrote: »For the most part I think I am a paleo keto type creature-- or maybe primal keto is more accurate. I have been able to tolerate a bit of dairy here and there, with coconut and other healthy fats being my main fat source.
BB, What's the difference between Paleo & Primal?
Dan the Man from Michigan
Diary is the main thing, though on a "if you can tolerate it" basis. It's also more low-carb focused by default (as opposed to "standard Paleo," which isn't particularly concerned with macros.0 -
A T2 with gout (under control), arthritis (behaving itself for now, a tendency toward bad blood lipid profile, GERD (gone since weight loss) and an inner thin person finally emerging from layers of fat, just trying to find the proper balance.
As the mystic said to the hot dog vendor, "Make me one with everything."0 -
Some athletes follow CKD (mentioned above) while others stay low carb all the time (Volek/Phinney). I think the trend for endurance athletes is to follow Volek/Phinney (authors of The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance).
The CKD crowd appears to be focused more on bodybuilding. Most of them cycle between bulking and cutting and have found carb control as the best way to control weight.
I am a competitive rower (masters age group - not national team) which is a strength-endurance sport that traditionally favors carb loading due to the demand to sprint during a race. Popular thought is that keto isn't ideal for this. However, a rower could easily race four times in a day. Keto allows for quick recovery and less drop off of speed between events. The downside seems to be that you give up top end speed. I say "seems" because it appears that the longer you stay keto the less of a drop off you see. Also, your body has about 2k of energy for sprinting. The rub seems to be how long it takes a keto athlete to replenish this energy store. They need carbs or an abundance of protein (plus time) to recover.
I personally lost over 30 pounds on keto and being lighter was a huge help in the boat. However, I have no idea if I would have been faster had the ability to carb load before races.
CKD really doesn't make much sense to me. It sounds like what the Hodge Twins have been doing on YouTube. The debate between refeeding and cheat days/meals will make your head spin. I don't get cravings once I am keto and see no emotional benefit to eating carbs. Other than what I wrote above for sprint athletes, I also see no physical benefit to refeeding.
Also, I'll chime in a vote for the difference between paleo and primal. Primal is much closer to Atkins with simply a focus on eating less "processed" foods. Mark Sisson is probably the biggest Primal advocate, but I think Gary Taubes's books point people in that same direction. There seems to be a rainbow of choices with Atkins in one end and Paleo on the other - reaching the same goal with very different views on how you should source your proteins ands fats.
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I forgot one interesting topic for a blogger like yourself. Mark Sisson is all about controlling carbs to control weight and recommends a ceiling of about 150g of carbs per day. Most others put that number at 50 wanting you to go into ketosis. From what I have read, there may be a danger zone between 50 and 150. Within that range you doing have enough ketones or carbs for optimal brain function. It is kind of like a marathon runner that runs out of carbs but isn't fat adapted and hits the wall. I haven't found this to be true myself, but also don't think there's a definite line where you fall out of ketosis into some dark abyss of distinction. I tend to think Sisson is right and that you can make gradual changes in carb intake without the fear of damaging your body. I am fairly certain that I have had great weight loss results be restricting carbs without being in ketosis. I could be wrong and simply enter ketosis somewhere closer to 100g instead of 50.0
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I am just plain keto for sure. If it fits in my macros, I eat it. I just try to stay away from some of the more processed foods...sometimes. lol0
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Dragonwolf wrote: »5:
Primal allows dairy, among other things.BetterBalancedMe2015 wrote: »For the most part I think I am a paleo keto type creature-- or maybe primal keto is more accurate. I have been able to tolerate a bit of dairy here and there, with coconut and other healthy fats being my main fat source.
BB, What's the difference between Paleo & Primal?
Dan the Man from Michigan
Diary is the main thing, though on a "if you can tolerate it" basis. It's also more low-carb focused by default (as opposed to "standard Paleo," which isn't particularly concerned with macros.
This is accurate. I forego chemical sweeteners (aspartame, etc) in favor of grade b maple or honey, I can tolerate some dairy, like hard cheese and grassfed butter, but cannot have whole milk and heavy cream only on occasion. I still don't eat potatoes even though those are occasionally ok for a primal type person. I aim for minimally processed meats and buy grassfed and organic if I can at least 90% of the time.0 -
I forgot one interesting topic for a blogger like yourself. Mark Sisson is all about controlling carbs to control weight and recommends a ceiling of about 150g of carbs per day. Most others put that number at 50 wanting you to go into ketosis. From what I have read, there may be a danger zone between 50 and 150. Within that range you doing have enough ketones or carbs for optimal brain function. It is kind of like a marathon runner that runs out of carbs but isn't fat adapted and hits the wall. I haven't found this to be true myself, but also don't think there's a definite line where you fall out of ketosis into some dark abyss of distinction. I tend to think Sisson is right and that you can make gradual changes in carb intake without the fear of damaging your body. I am fairly certain that I have had great weight loss results be restricting carbs without being in ketosis. I could be wrong and simply enter ketosis somewhere closer to 100g instead of 50.
Quatroux. Excellent reply! Your post is what I have been thinking about since I posted this and am now on the LCD group (formerly I was only on the Keto group). I will add the "Lo Carb" classification, which will be from 50 to 150g carbs @ day. The distinction will be just as you said, below 50, you slip into the Ketogenic Diet.
I have been working on other stuff, so I will definitely add is asap.
Keep up the good work!
Dan the Man from Michigan
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Some athletes follow CKD (mentioned above) while others stay low carb all the time (Volek/Phinney). I think the trend for endurance athletes is to follow Volek/Phinney (authors of The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance).
The CKD crowd appears to be focused more on bodybuilding. Most of them cycle between bulking and cutting and have found carb control as the best way to control weight.
I am a competitive rower (masters age group - not national team) which is a strength-endurance sport that traditionally favors carb loading due to the demand to sprint during a race. Popular thought is that keto isn't ideal for this. However, a rower could easily race four times in a day. Keto allows for quick recovery and less drop off of speed between events. The downside seems to be that you give up top end speed. I say "seems" because it appears that the longer you stay keto the less of a drop off you see. Also, your body has about 2k of energy for sprinting. The rub seems to be how long it takes a keto athlete to replenish this energy store. They need carbs or an abundance of protein (plus time) to recover.
I personally lost over 30 pounds on keto and being lighter was a huge help in the boat. However, I have no idea if I would have been faster had the ability to carb load before races.
CKD really doesn't make much sense to me. It sounds like what the Hodge Twins have been doing on YouTube. The debate between refeeding and cheat days/meals will make your head spin. I don't get cravings once I am keto and see no emotional benefit to eating carbs. Other than what I wrote above for sprint athletes, I also see no physical benefit to refeeding.
Also, I'll chime in a vote for the difference between paleo and primal. Primal is much closer to Atkins with simply a focus on eating less "processed" foods. Mark Sisson is probably the biggest Primal advocate, but I think Gary Taubes's books point people in that same direction. There seems to be a rainbow of choices with Atkins in one end and Paleo on the other - reaching the same goal with very different views on how you should source your proteins ands fats.
Thank you again for another excellent reply. The Phinney & Volek (normal) book is what converted me to Keto last summer. I did see many articles and references to the athletic side of Keto. You are the first person, I have met, that has confirmed this to me. Thank you. I am not an athlete, but I did forward some of this info to a friend of mine who is a serious bicycler (100 mile rides).
And I will certainly add the different between Paleo / Primal.
Thank you again,
Dan the Man from Michigan
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Sorry if this isn't the place for this. This was just the first post I saw for Keto on myfitnesspal and I'm exceptionally lazy. I'm just looking for a few support friends. I'm a morbidly obese late 20's female on the standard keto diet. I went in cold turkey, no transition with a 20 carb limit, no re-feeds allowed. I'm day 4 and just want a few people to connect with to keep my momentum up. Message me if your interested in a support friendship!0
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bgctrinity wrote: »Sorry if this isn't the place for this. This was just the first post I saw for Keto on myfitnesspal and I'm exceptionally lazy. I'm just looking for a few support friends. I'm a morbidly obese late 20's female on the standard keto diet. I went in cold turkey, no transition with a 20 carb limit, no re-feeds allowed. I'm day 4 and just want a few people to connect with to keep my momentum up. Message me if your interested in a support friendship!
Welcome!0 -
Welcome. This is the perfect place for this. We love and support all low-carbers.0
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I don't fit a group. I sometimes keto but do have days with higher carbs. My highest day is generally still under 50g so still quite low carbs. I'm a border hopper. 0
This discussion has been closed.