Eat Bacon, Don't Jog
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You want large scale studies? The NY Times had a good article last month that covered a couple:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/04/15/the-right-dose-of-exercise-for-a-longer-life/
Basically the more exercise you do, the better. The more intense, the better. Intense = running instead of walking.
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You want large scale studies? The NY Times had a good article last month that covered a couple:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/04/15/the-right-dose-of-exercise-for-a-longer-life/
Basically the more exercise you do, the better. The more intense, the better. Intense = running instead of walking.
From the article:The sweet spot for exercise benefits, however, came among those who tripled the recommended level of exercise, working out moderately, mostly by walking, for 450 minutes per week, or a little more than an hour per day.
Can't speak for others, but I never disagreed with this part, remember:Dragonwolf wrote: »Move frequently at a slow pace (have a solid cardiovascular base, walk leisurely a lot, etc.; no, this does not include jogging or even speed walking, which he goes into detail about why he frowns upon these "chronic cardio" behaviors)
Also from the article:At that point, the benefits plateaued, the researchers found, but they never significantly declined. Those few individuals engaging in 10 times or more the recommended exercise dose gained about the same reduction in mortality risk as people who simply met the guidelines. They did not gain significantly more health bang for all of those additional hours spent sweating. But they also did not increase their risk of dying young.
As for the part about the running:determining how much time each person spent exercising and how much of that exercise qualified as vigorous, such as running instead of walking, or playing competitive singles tennis versus a sociable doubles game.
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Those who spent up to 30 percent of their weekly exercise time in vigorous activities were 9 percent less likely to die prematurely than people who exercised for the same amount of time but always moderately, while those who spent more than 30 percent of their exercise time in strenuous activities gained an extra 13 percent reduction in early mortality, compared with people who never broke much of a sweat.
The first question I have to ask is "how much more?" The article doesn't appear to say. 50%? 90%? How long do they sustain this? Is there any objective data to qualify "high intensity"? Was it only running, or were there other activities? I don't have access to the full study to get that information, and the abstract doesn't have that information.
But again, I, at least, never said to never exercise, nor that walking is the only thing one should do. In fact, I said the opposite:Dragonwolf wrote: »Lift heavy things (strength training)
Sprint (all out effort for a minute or two, once or so a week, when it feels good)
Play (literally: tag, ultimate frisbee, frisbee golf, basketball, do what your kids do, etc.)
There's actually quite a bit of high-intensity stuff, there. Ever mimic a 5 or 8 year old's play style? Good luck keeping up with them. Last I checked, tag, basketball, and competitive frisbee games had quite a bit of running and high intensity. The difference is that it's intervals. High intensity moments alternate with lower intensity moments.
Even the researchers of the second study recommend 20-30 minutes of your 150 minutes a week be vigorous, though you could do more if you wanted:Anyone who is physically capable of activity should try to “reach at least 150 minutes of physical activity per week and have around 20 to 30 minutes of that be vigorous activity,” says Klaus Gebel, a senior research fellow at James Cook University in Cairns, Australia, who led the second study. And a larger dose, for those who are so inclined, does not seem to be unsafe, he said.
Which, again, comes back to what I mentioned earlier about diminishing returns, defined as "the decrease in the marginal (incremental) output of a production process as the amount of a single factor of production is incrementally increased, while the amounts of all other factors of production stay constant." In other words, more is not better, after a given point.
Or, to put it another way -- going from completely sedentary to running a 5K has huge benefits for a person. Going from running a 5K to running a half-marathon has fewer additional benefits, and going from a half marathon to a full marathon and beyond have even fewer additional benefits still (even though 0 to 5K is a smaller jump in time and distance than 5K to 21K or 21K to 42K).
Then, there's the part that is rampant in fitness/nutrition studies in general:Of course, these studies relied on people’s shaky recall of exercise habits and were not randomized experiments, so can’t prove that any exercise dose caused changes in mortality risk, only that exercise and death risks were associated.0 -
I'm not trying to counter or change your beliefs, DW. I just think the title and premise of the books mentioned in the OP are dumb.
There's nothing wrong with jogging. HIIT and weightlifting are less appropriate for most people than jogging due to injury risk and poor compliance. But if you enjoy those things, then go for it! Exercise is good for just about everybody.
The risks associated with over-exercising endurance athletes are probably real, but they don't apply to most of us. Personally, I try to keep my exercise sessions under an hour just to be safe. 0 -
I see a lot of the long-term exercise being walking. I can believe that. I walk a lot. The low intensity movement seems beneficial for health, if not for weight loss. I also am pretty sure the author would support some cardio, like bike riding. As he is a biker. Still, exercise is for health and not weight loss. If you're looking to lose weight in the most painless manner possible, you don't need to incorporate exercise into that plan.
If someone likes to jog or run. That's great for them. But, there's no proven benefit for overweight people who don't enjoy jogging to add it to their weight loss attempts. I run. I personally enjoy obstacle course runs and I also don't enjoy prolonged runs. I found that even when I can run for 30+ minutes straight, I enjoy quick runs with walks and other activities a lot more. I like the paths around my area where you can run/walk for a bit and the get to a pull up bar or some other different activity. That interests me.
It's more important that someone find something they enjoy and find approachable than that they aspire to run for 30-60 minutes X times a week.0 -
I chose swimming and rowing as sports in high school and collage because I knew from an early age I hated running. I think people emphasize running as "the" way to exercise or lose weight because it is the most easily accessible. Anyone can grab a pair of sneakers and walk out of their front door. Me, on the other hand, I'll grab my swim bag, walk 20 minutes out my front door to a pool. I'd rather consistently try to drown myself seeing how many strokes I can go without taking a breath than pound pavement. What ever activity you choose, it's the lifestyle that matters. Exercise has taught me discipline, patience, logical thinking, control, and much more. Maybe most importantly, it taught me to respect my body which is important for weight loss as well.0
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I'm not trying to counter or change your beliefs, DW. I just think the title and premise of the books mentioned in the OP are dumb.
That's marketing for you. After working in a marketing agency for a couple of years, I've come to the conclusion that the people that come up with that stuff try to see how far they can go and still get away with it. I kid you not, I once overheard a conversation about sending Justin Beiber a pair of underwear to sign or somesuch as a marketing ploy for a glue company.
The same goes for the people determining what cashiers have to say when calling the next person or what people have to say when answering the phone (since it's all marketing opportunities).
I didn't feel you were trying to change my beliefs. It just seemed like you were disagreed to disagree and the things you agreed with weren't actually disagreeing with me. Also, it has felt like you missed the point of the message of the book (and books like it).There's nothing wrong with jogging. HIIT and weightlifting are less appropriate for most people than jogging due to injury risk and poor compliance. But if you enjoy those things, then go for it! Exercise is good for just about everybody.
You only get injured if you a) have bad form, or b) try to do more than you're currently capable. The same applies to jogging, though. Poor running form, especially on concrete, will seriously tear up your knees, hips, and back. Plantar Fasciitis, shinsplints, stress fractures, the list goes on, and they all stem from poor form and/or overexertion.
Also, strength training does not necessarily need to be weightlifting, and HIIT can be done with running, so you're operating on false dichotomies to begin with.The risks associated with over-exercising endurance athletes are probably real, but they don't apply to most of us. Personally, I try to keep my exercise sessions under an hour just to be safe.
That's where the difference between knowing where that sweet spot time is and thinking that more is better lies. I've been listening to Robb Wolf's podcast, and something that comes up almost every show is a question about losing the last 10lbs or whatever and basically "I'm not leaning out, what am I doing wrong?" and it turns out that they're doing CrossFit 5 times a week and MetCons and BJJ and intermittent fasting and (especially if they're women) only eating 1200 calories and...and...and.... If "eat less, move more" is what makes you lose weight, then eating less and less and moving more and more must make you lose more weight, right? This trap is all too common and can be seen in the main forums, too (and unfortunately basically encouraged by the people who don't look critically at what the person is doing and just blindly saying "you're eating too much"). It seems to happen most with running/jogging, because it's what people have in their heads as the penultimate way to lose weight (without bulking up like an angry Hulk!) and people do something like C25K, get great results, and so, keep it up, but then they stop losing weight, so they think that if C25K did so well, then a 10K or marathon or whatever will do better, and so on and so forth.
When it comes to volume, more is not necessarily better, regardless of activity. At least not for purposes of fat loss.0 -
I think people emphasize running as "the" way to exercise or lose weight because it is the most easily accessible. Anyone can grab a pair of sneakers and walk out of their front door.
Exactly. Everybody knows exercise is good for them, but getting over the hurdles to establish a routine is HUGE. The lower the hurdle, the better.
@Goat and Dragon, I don't really want to go down the path of weight loss vs exercise. There are many studies that show exercise helps with weight loss, but more important than that is that we all know that weight MAINTENANCE is the elephant in the room. A lot of people lose weight, but not many keep it off long term. Getting into the exercise habit may be key. Better health, better mood, better physique, better long-term success. Good enough for me.0 -
I think people emphasize running as "the" way to exercise or lose weight because it is the most easily accessible. Anyone can grab a pair of sneakers and walk out of their front door.
Exactly. Everybody knows exercise is good for them, but getting over the hurdles to establish a routine is HUGE. The lower the hurdle, the better.
@Goat and Dragon, I don't really want to go down the path of weight loss vs exercise. There are many studies that show exercise helps with weight loss, but more important than that is that we all know that weight MAINTENANCE is the elephant in the room. A lot of people lose weight, but not many keep it off long term. Getting into the exercise habit may be key. Better health, better mood, better physique, better long-term success. Good enough for me.
If you're still getting the notion that I'm somehow anti-exercise in general, then I really have nothing left to say in this discussion...0 -
It was mostly about Goat's insistence that's there's "no proven benefit," but I figured I'd lump yours about the CICO "trap" in there too. There's conjecture and there's science. Is there any science supporting Rob Wolf's podcast?
I think Volek showed that RMR can go down with exercise, which is kind of interesting. That wouldn't help with weight loss per se, but I imagine that the reason RMR goes down is improved metabolic efficiency = improved health. RMR also goes down with weight loss, and that's a Good Thing.
The speculation about cortisol isn't more than speculation, AFAIK, but feel free to point me to evidence if there is some.
There is evidence of oxidative stress, which is the only concern to me wrt long sessions of exercise.0 -
You keep trying to move the goalposts. Now it is about maintenance even though the book and all the original comments are about getting lean and weight loss. You also keep talking about lots of studies showing benefits, but the benefit is negligible (if it exists at all) and other studies show no benefit or detriment.
I am fine with you having your own opinion. And, I do a fair amount of exercise myself (especially if walking counts). It never was part of my weight loss plan. And, my weight loss rate never strongly correlated with my activity levels.0 -
We can use your goalposts, if you like. I just find the maintenance benefits more compelling.
http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v29/n10/abs/0803015a.html
Diet associated with exercise produced a 20% greater initial weight loss.0 -
We can use your goalposts, if you like. I just find the maintenance benefits more compelling.
http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v29/n10/abs/0803015a.html
Diet associated with exercise produced a 20% greater initial weight loss.
As I said, you can find studies showing some benefit. You can also find some that show detriment. We could also title the study you quoted as, "diet and exercise leads to greater amounts of weight regain after initial loss."
The fact remains, I think you even stated it, that only around 1% of successful long-term weight losers attribute exercise as the cause of their loss. Somehow this thread trampled a sacred cow for you. I get it. I don't particularly care. If you don't like books like this, you have a right to say that as well as not spend your money on them.
Diet trumps exercise when it come to losing weight. Exercise isn't bad... Except for jogging. Jogging sucks.
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I just figured we could make this thread entertaining, and if we were lucky, educational too. FWIW, I resisted believing in the benefits of exercise for a long time. Mostly because I couldn't figure out a mechanism. It was like saying "the more you drive your car, the better it gets," which is counterintuitive.
I still don't understand ALL of the benefits, but at least the stimulation of increased vasculature and mitochondrial density makes sense. Anyway, I'm hooked now and I don't want to lose my momentum. Every time I see somebody say "don't exercise" or "don't exercise so much" or "exercise doesn't help" it's like death by a thousand cuts.
Don't screw with my momentum. It was hard for me to get over my hurdles and reach this speed. 0 -
Note: that should have said, "I don't particularly care to argue about this." and not as it came off, that I didn't care about your opinion/feelings/etc. I blame my phone. I swear, I originally wrote that.0
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Oh, exercise is fantastic. I even jog myself (mostly because walking between the obstacles at a mud run makes you look silly). I ride my bike. I climb on stuff, climbing on stuff is my favorite thing to do besides swimming. I walk a ton. I do love it and know it helps my health. My blood pressure and resting pulse are surely related to that.
I think everyone should find something they love to do. Sitting has been shown to have negative affects on health. I just don't believe it's important for losing weight. Maybe for losing weight and getting healthy.0 -
I have read the book and started following the advice along with counting the calories. I credit both of these items for losing 40 pounds in 120 days. Now I am slipping back into old habits and weight is creeping back. Back to the book.0
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A new member just joined that is trying this out. Figured I would bump it and let them see it, and possibly post a first hand account/experience with how it works.0
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You guys are embarrassing me. I don't exercise. I do put long hours in working in my yard, tho. And since starting this woe I find physical exertion is not triggering Hashimoto's crashes. Between the bad back, bad knee, & Hashi's (getting old sucks), I had become quite sedentary. I like Fit_Goat's 5 minute theory - makes sense & most people can find 5 mins to do something.0
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Welcome. Don't be embarrassed. We are all friendly here, in spite of the amount of arguing you see in this thread. We all have different opinions on a lot of things. But, we do respect that everyone has to choose the path that works for them.
Personally, I bet my diet and exercise regimen is pretty close to the one from this book. I have never read the book though. It is on my list for eventually. I am currently working through "The Vegetarian Myth," Strong Medicine," and a couple programming books. So, I don't have room on my plate for something else (non-fiction... Always room for a good relaxing fiction book).0 -
HIIT does build muscle and is cardio
It seems how you use it.
It is nice our group has arrived at our destinations by a few different paths.
I like intense cardio for getting my heart in shape.
Heavy lifting to put extra muscles in places I want them.
Easy cardio or moderated lifting for fitness and calorie burning
The book title sounds like a great attention getter!
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would definitely be interested in reading it. It's funny how I lost the most weight doing no exercise and just eating well. I feel sorry for people who think they have to kill themselves at the gym to lose weight, when it is probably their diet that is the real problem. Now that I'm keto adapted (stopped feeling super lethargic and headaches stopped) I want to add some hiking back in0
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The MAIN reason to move one's body..call it what you will..is for the LYMPH system. It has been proven in studies that the obese should NOT do endurance for 60+ min….at that point you begin a 5%-15% SLOW DOWN of fat burning..so you are going backwards ( pg 40 Art & Science of Of Low Carb Performance; Volek & Phinney.)
People not obese can do more because it 'feels' good (endorphins released) … but the heavier would do better at 10-40 min a set, and maybe a couple sets a day.
No one discusses the lymph system, it doesn't have the heart engine pumping to move this intracellular fluid, (more volume than our blood) so physical movement is what makes us feel better, and it removes wastes.
I just got a Rebounder trampoline, a good one, as the up and down bouncing allows even more lymph circulation, and this is a better exercise for limited mobility/older/handicapped people.0 -
Greetings Bacon Munchers!
I think I might be the new member that FIT_goat is referring to. I wish I had some great pearls of wisdom to share but today is only Day 4 following the diet in this book. Also I'm not a typical person because I have severe hypothyroid so my metabolism is very slow and I'm 55 and female without a lot of muscle right now so that all works against me.
All that being said I read the book because my friend who is a SAD diet person if ever there was one started on this diet a month ago. Even with drinking a diet coke every day (cringe) he looks at least 10 years younger and has definitely lost some substantial weight.
The book really resonates with me because he says the exercise should be intense for short periods of time. The only way I have been able to lose weight in the past is with HIIT so I agree that intense, muscle building exercise is really great-- at least for me. I am hoping this diet will also help me to lose-- not because I don't want to exercise but because I don't want to have to work off every pound (I have 100 to lose).
Everything he said about the eating plan part of it really resonates with me (high fat, moderate protein, low carbs). So I'm hoping/praying that this will be the answer.0 -
It probably was you, if you mentioned it in the comments for joining. We end up getting a lot of applications each day, and I am horrible with names. But, I knew someone was trying this out and wanted to bump it, just in case. LOL0
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SkinnyKerinny wrote: »Greetings Bacon Munchers!
I think I might be the new member that FIT_goat is referring to. I wish I had some great pearls of wisdom to share but today is only Day 4 following the diet in this book. Also I'm not a typical person because I have severe hypothyroid so my metabolism is very slow and I'm 55 and female without a lot of muscle right now so that all works against me.
All that being said I read the book because my friend who is a SAD diet person if ever there was one started on this diet a month ago. Even with drinking a diet coke every day (cringe) he looks at least 10 years younger and has definitely lost some substantial weight.
The book really resonates with me because he says the exercise should be intense for short periods of time. The only way I have been able to lose weight in the past is with HIIT so I agree that intense, muscle building exercise is really great-- at least for me. I am hoping this diet will also help me to lose-- not because I don't want to exercise but because I don't want to have to work off every pound (I have 100 to lose).
Everything he said about the eating plan part of it really resonates with me (high fat, moderate protein, low carbs). So I'm hoping/praying that this will be the answer.
I'm also hypothyroid among many other issues, and one of the things that helped me most was supplementing iodine/iodide under medical supervision. Aside from Rx medication, do you do other things to support your thyroid? And just to let you know, this way of eating is the best thing I've ever done for all of my endocrine related issues.0 -
I used to run/jog even when I was very overweight- it did not help with weight loss, and now at my lightest weight as an adult I have been told by my dr. to stop jogging because it is aggravating the arthritis I have in my right hip.
I love to walk. I do not enjoy doing resistance training, but I do it anyway because my dr. suggested I should. I practice Bikram style yoga three times per week and love it. On the days I do not do that, I walk or take a spinning class at the gym. I pretty much exercise every day-- mostly because I enjoy it. 0 -
I forgot to mention the author of Eat Bacon Don't Jog also recommends eating fermented foods. I eat FF every day and they have a lot of salt so that is one way to get your sodium anyway. And you can drink some of the juice after the veggies are gone to get more probiotics and salt.
If anyone is interested in trying FF, I highly recommend Sonoma Brinery Curtido. It is has a Latin flavor with a little bit of heat and low carbs. Even my dogs eat it every day.0 -
SkinnyKerinny wrote: »Greetings Bacon Munchers!
I think I might be the new member that FIT_goat is referring to. I wish I had some great pearls of wisdom to share but today is only Day 4 following the diet in this book. Also I'm not a typical person because I have severe hypothyroid so my metabolism is very slow and I'm 55 and female without a lot of muscle right now so that all works against me.
All that being said I read the book because my friend who is a SAD diet person if ever there was one started on this diet a month ago. Even with drinking a diet coke every day (cringe) he looks at least 10 years younger and has definitely lost some substantial weight.
The book really resonates with me because he says the exercise should be intense for short periods of time. The only way I have been able to lose weight in the past is with HIIT so I agree that intense, muscle building exercise is really great-- at least for me. I am hoping this diet will also help me to lose-- not because I don't want to exercise but because I don't want to have to work off every pound (I have 100 to lose).
Everything he said about the eating plan part of it really resonates with me (high fat, moderate protein, low carbs). So I'm hoping/praying that this will be the answer.
Our paths are pretty much parallel. I've been doing strength training to try and get the metabolism building a little again, but I think it's this woe that's done the most for me so far.
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SkinnyKerinny wrote: »I forgot to mention the author of Eat Bacon Don't Jog also recommends eating fermented foods. I eat FF every day and they have a lot of salt so that is one way to get your sodium anyway. And you can drink some of the juice after the veggies are gone to get more probiotics and salt.
If anyone is interested in trying FF, I highly recommend Sonoma Brinery Curtido. It is has a Latin flavor with a little bit of heat and low carbs. Even my dogs eat it every day.
I've been trying to figure out how to incorporate fermented foods into my diet, but I've never done so. What exactly is that^^? I could google, but I want your take, too, please. Ah, googled. Sauerkraut. Despite the fact I'm Polish and love cabbage, I've never been big on 'kraut. Anyone else know a decent way to find fermented 'kraut in the Southern States (instead of the vinegar'd stuff?)?0
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