Every weight loss diet is a ketogenic diet?
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Crisseyda
Posts: 532 Member
So I've been having some thoughts and wondering if anyone else has more information on this...
It seems to me that whether or not you choose a ketogenic diet, if you are eating at such a deficit that your body breaks down its own fat stores for energy, then you are making ketones. Fat metabolism very quickly overwhelms the Krebs Cycle and acetyl CoA is diverted to the ketogenic pathway. Fasting, for example, will create a mild ketosis in generally 12 to 14 hrs (blood keto acid concentration of about 1 mmol/L).
It seems to me that a lot of mainstream exercise advice promotes a low intensity, slow work out in order to enter the "fat burning" zone once the glucose stores in the liver and muscles have been depleted. Fat burning is what people are aiming for when it comes to calorie restriction and exercise. It also seems like the faster you lose the weight, the deeper your ketosis would be. However, a lot of diets also cause muscle wasting, and that may also work against ketosis.
So that's my question then, isn't every diet that causes you to burn body fat also a ketogenic diet? Even if it is probably an incredibly difficult one in which you feel hungry all the time because you are in some kind of limbo space where you go in and out of making ketones depending on whether you have eaten, exercised, fasted, slept, etc.
It seems to me that whether or not you choose a ketogenic diet, if you are eating at such a deficit that your body breaks down its own fat stores for energy, then you are making ketones. Fat metabolism very quickly overwhelms the Krebs Cycle and acetyl CoA is diverted to the ketogenic pathway. Fasting, for example, will create a mild ketosis in generally 12 to 14 hrs (blood keto acid concentration of about 1 mmol/L).
It seems to me that a lot of mainstream exercise advice promotes a low intensity, slow work out in order to enter the "fat burning" zone once the glucose stores in the liver and muscles have been depleted. Fat burning is what people are aiming for when it comes to calorie restriction and exercise. It also seems like the faster you lose the weight, the deeper your ketosis would be. However, a lot of diets also cause muscle wasting, and that may also work against ketosis.
So that's my question then, isn't every diet that causes you to burn body fat also a ketogenic diet? Even if it is probably an incredibly difficult one in which you feel hungry all the time because you are in some kind of limbo space where you go in and out of making ketones depending on whether you have eaten, exercised, fasted, slept, etc.
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Keto means the liver is producing ketones, not just when the body burns fat. Everyone does Keto to some extent if they fast long enough to deplete stored glycogen, which can take 10 or so hours from what I've read. So a short fast like a long sleep and postponing breakfast could be all one needs to start producing small amounts of ketones. Yet fear mongers love to preach how dangerous it is, not realizing they likely do it too. Kind of funny!2
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not sure about this, but every diet is usually a lower carb diet, yet people talk about how it is only CICO. Most diets include cutting out sugary drinks, sweets etc.2
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A Ketogenic diet isn't aiming to be using ketones sometimes, like only when fasting or only when working out at a fat burning level. It's aimed at maintaining that fat burning metabolism even when at rest. More on a full time basis and less of a "when I can temporarily force it" basis.KarlynKeto wrote: »Keto means the liver is producing ketones, not just when the body burns fat. Everyone does Keto to some extent if they fast long enough to deplete stored glycogen, which can take 10 or so hours from what I've read. So a short fast like a long sleep and postponing breakfast could be all one needs to start producing small amounts of ketones. Yet fear mongers love to preach how dangerous it is, not realizing they likely do it too. Kind of funny!
Ha! Don't you love it when someone reveals their ignorance of the subject when they say something like that?!?! Kinda stinks when it turns out to be a medical professional though. Especially when they are a diabetes nurse... Yep. True story.totaloblivia wrote: »not sure about this, but every diet is usually a lower carb diet, yet people talk about how it is only CICO. Most diets include cutting out sugary drinks, sweets etc.
I agree. People don't realize that carbs are almost always what gets cut back just in the process of cutting calories. People generally already eat low fat (unfortunately) and protein is pretty consistent, so they cut out sweets and junk food snacks. Which are predominantly carbs, as we know.
It would be very hard to cut calories without cutting carbs on a SAD diet I think. They would have to go even lower fat and protein. Maybe they could force done weight loss with CICO that way, for a little while. But at what health cost?
I start thinking about this and it makes me wonder how anyone can be so committed to CICO is all that matters. I feel like they absolutely must have blinders on because you would have to be choosing to not "hear" this to not get it. Makes me sad every time I see CICO being preached so matter of factly.2 -
Interesting post OP but I think this hits the nail on the headSunny_Bunny_ wrote: »A Ketogenic diet isn't aiming to be using ketones sometimes, like only when fasting or only when working out at a fat burning level. It's aimed at maintaining that fat burning metabolism even when at rest. More on a full time basis and less of a "when I can temporarily force it" basis.
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@bowlerae
I agree a ketogenic diet is far more effective because you get the added benefit of high levels of ketones to boost energy, suppress appetite, lower insulin levels, stable blood glucose, etc.
It just struck me as kind of funny that in reality everyone who it trying to lose weight is trying to get into ketosis, whether they realize it or not. Even the low fat crowd wants to get into ketosis... that's the actual point when their diet starts working for weightloss!0 -
But "most" people, medical conditions not included, go into ketosis every night during the later phases of sleep. That's probably why most people lose most of their stored fat while sleeping. Can't eat when sleeping
Which would imply that whether someone is vehemently pro CICO as a theory or against lowcarb...they still get ketones every night.
It's just how the body works when you don't eat for some x amount of hours. I'm curious how they can be so dead set against a mechanism that makes them survive.
Edit: a typo1 -
aqsylvester wrote: »So I've been having some thoughts and wondering if anyone else has more information on this...
It seems to me that whether or not you choose a ketogenic diet, if you are eating at such a deficit that your body breaks down its own fat stores for energy, then you are making ketones. Fat metabolism very quickly overwhelms the Krebs Cycle and acetyl CoA is diverted to the ketogenic pathway. Fasting, for example, will create a mild ketosis in generally 12 to 14 hrs (blood keto acid concentration of about 1 mmol/L).
It seems to me that a lot of mainstream exercise advice promotes a low intensity, slow work out in order to enter the "fat burning" zone once the glucose stores in the liver and muscles have been depleted. Fat burning is what people are aiming for when it comes to calorie restriction and exercise. It also seems like the faster you lose the weight, the deeper your ketosis would be. However, a lot of diets also cause muscle wasting, and that may also work against ketosis.
So that's my question then, isn't every diet that causes you to burn body fat also a ketogenic diet? Even if it is probably an incredibly difficult one in which you feel hungry all the time because you are in some kind of limbo space where you go in and out of making ketones depending on whether you have eaten, exercised, fasted, slept, etc.
NO NO NO was my first thought but then I read your post and see where you are coming from. Fat burning has to be happening through some process for sure. Thanks for making an old brain think.
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Foamroller wrote: »But "most" people, medical conditions not included, go into ketosis every night during the later phases of sleep. That's probably why most people lose most of their stored fat while sleeping. Can't eat when sleeping
Which would imply that whether someone is vehemently pro CICO as a theory or against lowcarb...they still get ketones every night.
It's just how the body works wen you don't eat for some x amount of hours. I'm curious how they can be so dead set against a mechanism that makes them survive.
Hmmmmmmm so interesting! And probably why those those late night snacks (that were usually carbs) were my very worst enemy once upon a time. As a night person, I'd be up later and eating at a point in the night when I didn't have enough time after the snack to get into ketosis while sleeping. It's all making sense now! Just wish I smartened up sooner2 -
Someone that was arguing CICO with me at one point shared this with me by way of an article that referenced it as the low dips being the point which fat burning takes place between meals. I guess that was their argument. I actually can't remember what nonsense was being preached along with it to be honest.
What they really miss is that most people aren't eating just 3 times a day... They NEED the snacks because hunger sets in as that peak is declining. They can't wait til the next meal time and everywhere you look you'll see people being told that it doesn't matter how often or what they eat because CICO... But if that's true, then when does using stored fat happen?
Overnight if they resisted late snacks and IF they get a full nights sleep. How many people get 5 hours? Lots! When do they burn body fat?
I'll tell you, when they exercise or go hungry.
Even funnier is that a similar chart was given to my daughter by her diabetes educator to show her how carbs affect blood sugar (as if we didn't know) along with the advice to eat many snacks to keep blood sugar stable. Ha! Yeah, that'll help soooooooo much!3 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Someone that was arguing CICO with me at one point shared this with me by way of an article that referenced it as the low dips being the point which fat burning takes place between meals. I guess that was their argument. I actually can't remember what nonsense was being preached along with it to be honest.
What they really miss is that most people aren't eating just 3 times a day... They NEED the snacks because hunger sets in as that peak is declining. They can't wait til the next meal time and everywhere you look you'll see people being told that it doesn't matter how often or what they eat because CICO... But if that's true, then when does using stored fat happen?
Overnight if they resisted late snacks and IF they get a full nights sleep. How many people get 5 hours? Lots! When do they burn body fat?
I'll tell you, when they exercise or go hungry.
Even funnier is that a similar chart was given to my daughter by her diabetes educator to show her how carbs affect blood sugar (as if we didn't know) along with the advice to eat many snacks to keep blood sugar stable. Ha! Yeah, that'll help soooooooo much!
Is it possible to invite someone to this forum? I have a friend who is a diabetic who I have convinced to join MFP to take a look at what I have to eat as a example of a LCHF diet, and I'd also love for him to see this post (among others)1 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Someone that was arguing CICO with me at one point shared this with me by way of an article that referenced it as the low dips being the point which fat burning takes place between meals. I guess that was their argument. I actually can't remember what nonsense was being preached along with it to be honest.
What they really miss is that most people aren't eating just 3 times a day... They NEED the snacks because hunger sets in as that peak is declining. They can't wait til the next meal time and everywhere you look you'll see people being told that it doesn't matter how often or what they eat because CICO... But if that's true, then when does using stored fat happen?
Overnight if they resisted late snacks and IF they get a full nights sleep. How many people get 5 hours? Lots! When do they burn body fat?
I'll tell you, when they exercise or go hungry.
Even funnier is that a similar chart was given to my daughter by her diabetes educator to show her how carbs affect blood sugar (as if we didn't know) along with the advice to eat many snacks to keep blood sugar stable. Ha! Yeah, that'll help soooooooo much!
Also something over looked is the high percentage of people with IR, pre diabetes, and diabetes, and that fact that for some insulin is continually high therefore they are never burning fat. But yeah if they are only concerned with the maybe 20% of the population with a healthy metabolism, then sure they can keep preaching something that won't actually help the majority of people.
I can't imagine what my bg was most of the time before, if my fasting bg was 103. It's truly no wonder I felt I was gaining weight faster than ever even though I had barely changed what I was eating. Turns out my body for nearly 15 years went through stages of IR and then would switch to a normal insulin sensitivity. Id gain then charge nothing and lose then gain, it was horribly frustrating. People would actually comment to me that I need to be more careful and stop gaining and losing constantly. As if it was something I was doing intentionally.0 -
Okay....
3 years ago I lost 110 lbs in 5.5 months. That amounted to about 5 lbs/weeks for the entire process.
I ate about 1500 calories/day and worked out to a tune of 1000 calories/day. This gave me the caloric deficit I needed.
The only way I could maintain the 16,000 calorie/week (2300/day) caloric deficit, and still be a happy camper, was to make every calorie count.
Carbs just didn't hold me at all and used up my calories way to quickly... so I cut them out almost completely.
Breakfast was often 5 eggs whites with cheese and salsa. Protein and a salad for both lunch and dinner.
I often ate steaks (strip loin, rib eyes etc).
It worked really well and (much to the disbelief of my wife and friends) I didn't suffer at all through the process. I actually found it quite easy once I got going and figured out how to eat.
Over the next 2 years I put 80 of the lbs back on.
In January of this year, I decided to take the weigh off again. I think I am doing the same thing but I am only averaging 3.5 lbs/week. Not too shabby... but much slower then last time.
After joining this group, and learning (for the first time) about ketosis, I went and bought some Ketostiks. Oddly, it turns out that I am not in ketosis. Looking at my MFP records, I notice that I was averaging about 82g of carbs/day. I am a little surprised. While it seems a little harder this time, I am certainly not suffering through this process.
I have decided to adjust my diet a bit so it will put me into ketosis. I am a little nervous about messing with something that is working... but I figure I must have been in Keto before regardless.
After two days of being on <25g of carbs/day, my ketostiks still don't indicate that I am in ketosis. I am still working out to the tune of 1000 calories/day.
Am I missing something here?
Any advice?
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Here are my weight graphs from before and now.
I more recent one (with the big jump in weight) was when I went on a cruise. I put on a lb / day for the 12 days. Too much drink food fun and very few work outs.
Oh well....
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I don't know why the scales got cut off. The first scale goes from 340 to 220. The second scale goes from 320 to 220.0
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@vowder your body excretes ketones in multiple ways. Some people will never ever show ketones on the sticks. I believe the only accurate way to test ketones is with a blood monitor. At your levels you are producing ketones, just probably not enough to be dumping excess amounts through urine, your body is using the ones you are producing. I wouldn't monkey with it too much if it's working.2
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auntstephie321 wrote: »@vowder your body excretes ketones in multiple ways. Some people will never ever show ketones on the sticks. I believe the only accurate way to test ketones is with a blood monitor. At your levels you are producing ketones, just probably not enough to be dumping excess amounts through urine, your body is using the ones you are producing. I wouldn't monkey with it too much if it's working.
Right on Stephanie, I would add two things:
1) A Ketonix breath analyzer is as accurate as a blood ketone meter.
2) If you truly eat 20-25 (or less) grams carb @ day, you will not need any meter at all. You will be in ketosis.
I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / The Recipe Water Fasting / E.A.S.Y. Exercise Program
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That's interesting you should say that. When I was on Weight Watchers they told us that every diet to lose weight required some loss of muscle mass as well as loss of body fat. They claimed you could NOT lose weight without losing large amounts of muscle. So I guess when you lose fat and not muscle (which is one of the reasons low calorie causes you to regain lost weight so quickly) you would be creating ketones to some extent. It's funny how they rationalize the failures of the diet.
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auntstephie321 wrote: »@vowder your body excretes ketones in multiple ways. Some people will never ever show ketones on the sticks. I believe the only accurate way to test ketones is with a blood monitor. At your levels you are producing ketones, just probably not enough to be dumping excess amounts through urine, your body is using the ones you are producing. I wouldn't monkey with it too much if it's working.
Right on Stephanie, I would add two things:
1) A Ketonix breath analyzer is as accurate as a blood ketone meter.
2) If you truly eat 20-25 (or less) grams carb @ day, you will not need any meter at all. You will be in ketosis.
I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / The Recipe Water Fasting / E.A.S.Y. Exercise Program
DittoDan...
Thanks... that does help. I won't sweat the ketostiks then.
Here is my carb consumption for the last 7 days. Only the last two am I focused on it.
Looking over the last 90 days... 21 days are above 100g carbs. The average of the rest is about 60. Probably bouncing in and out all the time.
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juliacougarrrr wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Someone that was arguing CICO with me at one point shared this with me by way of an article that referenced it as the low dips being the point which fat burning takes place between meals. I guess that was their argument. I actually can't remember what nonsense was being preached along with it to be honest.
What they really miss is that most people aren't eating just 3 times a day... They NEED the snacks because hunger sets in as that peak is declining. They can't wait til the next meal time and everywhere you look you'll see people being told that it doesn't matter how often or what they eat because CICO... But if that's true, then when does using stored fat happen?
Overnight if they resisted late snacks and IF they get a full nights sleep. How many people get 5 hours? Lots! When do they burn body fat?
I'll tell you, when they exercise or go hungry.
Even funnier is that a similar chart was given to my daughter by her diabetes educator to show her how carbs affect blood sugar (as if we didn't know) along with the advice to eat many snacks to keep blood sugar stable. Ha! Yeah, that'll help soooooooo much!
Is it possible to invite someone to this forum? I have a friend who is a diabetic who I have convinced to join MFP to take a look at what I have to eat as a example of a LCHF diet, and I'd also love for him to see this post (among others)
Send your friend this link
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/394-low-carber-daily-forum-the-lcd-group2 -
Okay....
3 years ago I lost 110 lbs in 5.5 months. That amounted to about 5 lbs/weeks for the entire process.
I ate about 1500 calories/day and worked out to a tune of 1000 calories/day. This gave me the caloric deficit I needed.
The only way I could maintain the 16,000 calorie/week (2300/day) caloric deficit, and still be a happy camper, was to make every calorie count.
Carbs just didn't hold me at all and used up my calories way to quickly... so I cut them out almost completely.
Breakfast was often 5 eggs whites with cheese and salsa. Protein and a salad for both lunch and dinner.
I often ate steaks (strip loin, rib eyes etc).
It worked really well and (much to the disbelief of my wife and friends) I didn't suffer at all through the process. I actually found it quite easy once I got going and figured out how to eat.
Over the next 2 years I put 80 of the lbs back on.
In January of this year, I decided to take the weigh off again. I think I am doing the same thing but I am only averaging 3.5 lbs/week. Not too shabby... but much slower then last time.
After joining this group, and learning (for the first time) about ketosis, I went and bought some Ketostiks. Oddly, it turns out that I am not in ketosis. Looking at my MFP records, I notice that I was averaging about 82g of carbs/day. I am a little surprised. While it seems a little harder this time, I am certainly not suffering through this process.
I have decided to adjust my diet a bit so it will put me into ketosis. I am a little nervous about messing with something that is working... but I figure I must have been in Keto before regardless.
After two days of being on <25g of carbs/day, my ketostiks still don't indicate that I am in ketosis. I am still working out to the tune of 1000 calories/day.
Am I missing something here?
Any advice?
I would be careful about comparing your current rate of loss to what you had before. You have a different body now than you did then. You may be able to get that going again but if you can't, don't let that discourage you. What you describe you're achieving now is very, very good progress and it will get you to your goal.0
