Jason Fung is hilarious!
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GaleHawkins wrote: »Question in my mind other than cutting calories when fasting does it have any value health wise for one already full time in a state of Nutritional Ketosis?
For some (well...me), it does bring down BG more than LCHF can. Supposedly the increased GH can help with muscle sparing, but increased GH is not good for all people....1 -
KetoGirl83 wrote: »@PaleoInScotland fast raises my BG too. I tried it after reading The Obesity Code, it all makes so much sense, unfortunately my body doesn't agree.
I may give it another try because I've been gaining and losing the same 5lbs for 2 months and my fasting insulin is way too high (though less than half what it was a year ago). Fung makes a compelling case for obesity being an hormonal disease and for the need to lower insulin to lose weight sustainably. Unfortunately it looks like my insulin has come as low as it is going to go on LCHF. Bummer.
::flowerforyou::
I'm no expert (on culinary or hormonal matters, or anything else), but I'm wondering if we have some similarities....
A high insulin level alone shouldn't be responsible for keeping your BG up during fasting. If you're fasting over 18 hours, then it would seem like your liver and kidneys are conspiring to produce new glucose rather than ketones as fuel for your mind and body. From what I think I understand, amylin, cortisol, epinephrine (in addition to glucagon) could be involved. It would seem to follow that if there is sufficient available insulin to counteract their combined effect under normal circumstances, then the insulin that's present isn't getting a proper audience.
So I would think the key would be lowering insulin resistance, which is not the same as lowering insulin levels. Fasting regularly and maintaining a low-calorie LCHF diet for weight loss have worked pretty well for me, though it did take some time for my BG levels to drift down (not counting times I fasted for over 24 hours, a technique that has always worked).
But here's the puzzling part - maybe you're in the same boat: if I go even a full day without Metformin, my fasting BG rises from the 70s-80s to over 100. While it's nice to know there's at least one cheap and effective way to reduce insulin resistance for some of us, Metformin can trigger certain side effects that aren't altogether desirable.
C'est la vie. Looks like Metformin and Imodium will be part of my daily routine for the duration, whether I like them apples or not.....
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GaleHawkins wrote: »Question in my mind other than cutting calories when fasting does it have any value health wise for one already full time in a state of Nutritional Ketosis?
For some (well...me), it does bring down BG more than LCHF can. Supposedly the increased GH can help with muscle sparing, but increased GH is not good for all people....
anabolicmen.com/increase-growth-hormone-levels-naturally/
Thanks. Just never thought much about the Growth Hormone factor. Fasting is one of the 20 things mentioned in the above article as how to increase GH production naturally.1 -
Two words: Autophagy and BDNFGaleHawkins wrote: »Question in my mind other than cutting calories when fasting does it have any value health wise for one already full time in a state of Nutritional Ketosis?
Mice
BDNF
http://roguehealthandfitness.com/fasting-exercise-increase-levels-brain-derived-neurotrophic-factor/
The Abstract from Pub med
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16011467
Mark's Daily Apple devoted a whole series to IF:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/fasting-brain-function/#axzz47QDLDjzW
Autophagy
An ok overview
http://www.cavemandoctor.com/2012/04/06/autophagy-turning-stress-into-health/
I think it's hard to try separate effects of ketosis and fasting since at some point during sleep we all go into ketosis. An interesting question would be whether a fast will give additional benefits?
So if someone is in NK and keto adapted and still can't lose weight...why is that? Maybe they're never giving the body a chance to dip into stored fat? (Edit: Simplified, the body burns preferentially energy in roughly this order: glucose and fatty acids in blood. Glycogen in muscle. Glycogen in liver. Mobilizing big fat molecules from stored fat. Packing them into smaller molecules into blood. Lean tissue. Organ failure) Before most people have had the time to digest the last meal during waking hours, we've already topped on with another meal or snack! The body will never get enough time to burn from the belly. The chemical pathways to do lipolysis is much more complicated than just taking easy access free fatty acids from recent foods.
In gen pop CICO is the answer. Although I disagree with it being a cause, I do think that a severe caloric restriction sets a chain reaction in motion....A cascade of hormonal pathways. It's like when you're stuck in traffic, everything seems like stop and go. Hit a green wave and you ride all the way through. If only one of those traffic lights (hormonal receptors) change lights...the cascade is broken. (or reduced)
So CICO isn't the direct cause of weight loss...it's a proxy. Giving the body enough micronutrients and stimulus to function properly, it will produce all the green traffic lights when you need it.
Does that make sense?
I believe intermittent fasting is ONE of the methods that provide the body the stimulus it needs to work better as we age. There's no one magic method.
Edit. Sorry, inserted a lot of extra info. I also forgot to say that it seems to me that NK does not fix fatty liver and pancreas to the same extent IF does in the more severe cases of metabolic damage. That's maybe why Taylor's study showed some needs longer than 8 weeks. In that case I would calorie cycle for some weeks, then try again after.4 -
@Foamroller those are awesome links on the subject. CMA or Chaperone Mediated Autophagy seems to be only triggered by the presence of ketone bodies which is more specific type of autophagy as the way I read it.
jbc.org/content/280/27/25864.full
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On the subject of nutritional ketosis I saw in some post Dr. Peter Attia had moved to eating 120-200 carbs daily. If that is factual does anyone know WHY? I did him questioning NK in an interview as some point in the past.
Is there any reason to convert back to carb burning at least from time to time or just do it as IF? After 20 months I was just wondering since Dr. Attia was my guiding keto light from the get go.1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »On the subject of nutritional ketosis I saw in some post Dr. Peter Attia had moved to eating 120-200 carbs daily. If that is factual does anyone know WHY? I did him questioning NK in an interview as some point in the past.
Is there any reason to convert back to carb burning at least from time to time or just do it as IF? After 20 months I was just wondering since Dr. Attia was my guiding keto light from the get go.
It was me who posted about Attia quitting keto above. He didn't say exactly why. But from the Stem talk it sounded like the Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) made him realize that he didn't have to keto anymore. He also said he shifted his focus towards "longevity" rather than athletic output. Reducing levels of IGF-1 seems to be instrumental in cancer prevention. Sooo....insulinogenic amino acids like whey etc. are stimulating IGF-1. Which also seems to coincide as a part in the puzzle of cancerous cells going haywire. Dom D'Agostino and Rhonda Patrick also talk a lot about IGF-1 lately (maybe cause they're all friends?).
We want IGF-1 for protein synthesis and muscle growth...but not so much the body is overstimulated...is what I understand from this reasoning. Checks and balances!
You can listen for yourself:
https://youtu.be/AImlHYal3cI
Edit: Sorry I'm very talkative today. I would NOT try to emulate Attia. The guy can deadlift 350 lbs and is in a very good shape. I would guess he can probably store more than the 500g baseline glycogen in muscle than most men.2 -
After 15 minutes I will make time for the rest of this talk soon.0
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SamandaIndia wrote: »PaleoInScotland wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Hmm . . . says the guy who has not published a peer-reviewed (i.e. available without paying an arm and a leg) report of his work and will not disclose details of the diets his patients follow, unless you become his patient (oh, by the way, there's about a 1 year waiting list. But there may be other options if you're willing to see someone he trained/who is working under him).
#funnyinanironickindaway
That he won't disclose the details of his treatment sounds like...a doctor...to me.
That he doesn't publish peer reviewed publications doesn't really surprise me either.
He's a practicing physician. Does he have "the answer"? I dunno. What are Jimmy Moore's credentials?
He's basically Jared Fogel, Susan Powter and Richard Simmons. We just like his message more.
Hopefully he doesn't have much of Jared Fogle in him, he's not a very nice guy to be associated with anymore with his deviant persuasions having been brought to the public's attention and him subsequently being jailed.
But on a lighter note, the tendency to keep clinical trial details and specialty diets under wraps is one of the biggest reasons I'm so impressed with the diabetes research going on here in the UK in Newcastle. They have provided details of their program to encourage other docs to share with their patients or for people to try it themselves (though of course they advise medical care). But this research is what inspired me to really fight to get off my insulin, and I'm nearly there.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm
Brilliant. Thxs for sharing. Listening got me through quite a long session on eliptical trainer and stretching. Interesting. Is this the study you are participating in?
@SamandaIndia I didn't qualify for the study unfortunately as I've been diabetic too long and I take insulin, albeit not much anymore. He was just my inspiration to really work hard to get off my insulin.0 -
@PaleoInScotland no doubt you in turn will inspire others here to do the same. Keep going!!1
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=qvNLNl7oJnM
Rhonda Patrick makes a great presentation and hits IF pluses to longevity.2 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »https://youtube.com/watch?v=qvNLNl7oJnM
Rhonda Patrick makes a great presentation and hits IF pluses to longevity.
Yeah, her brain is like synapses connecting on ADHD. Sometimes it can be hard to follow as a layman, but she always provides great nuggets to look into further.
Here is the Mark Mattson on the IMHC. This is mostly mice, but the findings are very intriguing! They compared only exercise, only food restriction, both exercise and food limit and finally none of it. I think that if someone is happy with keto alone and get results from it, just leave it alone, lol. But if someone does not get the results they want or are stalled for long time or are very close to goal or are in the sunset years like me...there's no risk in trying these add-ons as an enhancement
Personally I find doing daily IF, some lowcarbing plus some form of daily physical activity has worked wonders for me, both mentally and physically. It didn't happen overnight though. But ic it as an investment for the future and it makes me feel GOOOOD!
https://youtu.be/ZpcVku45hFY 1 -
@Foamroller ---sunset years? Girl, you're 44! The sun is still shining brightly for you!
(I'm sunset!) 2 -
45 yo, but Ty anyway If we assume 80 yo is more or less the age when many people end up in care homes. I'm just over to sunset side. I wanna live my life to the fullest as long as possible! Bright and clear, not doped down. 2
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Haha, maybe I was unclear, lol. I think there's no coincidence that sarcopenia and gaining weight for the majority of people accelerate around age 40. Why is this? There are many theories. But few concluding answers.
Anyway....from here on out...the body and mind are slowly decaying. Maillard effect. I want to see if I can prevent or slow that down. Will it work? No guarantees. Sometimes I just have to take leaps of faith. That's what I meant with sunset. It was a metaphor, I didn't know it's an idiom. English is not my native language, hehe.3 -
Ha. Just givin' you the business b/c if you're sunset, I'm......way beyond that.
Here's to healthy, lively, joyous years ahead for all of us! 3 -
Hmm. Foa moi rolla... Bavarian?2
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@Foamroller that was funny about Rhonda's fast talking. Often I watch Youtube at 1.5x speed and I checked the speed three times watching her because I thought it was on set faster than 1x.
She said max for Vit D levels was 60 but that lower than many others state.1
