Just wanted to confirm few things.
viren19890
Posts: 778 Member
How true is all this
I got it from a poster- not belittling the effort of the poster for posting but just wanted to confirm
Ketogenic diets aren't optimal for trying to put on muscle mass. There are signaling processes that aren't activated properly when trying to be anabolic. One of them is mTOR. Carbs help with protein synthesis, insulin, and recovery which get highly reduced on a ketogenic diet.
Other issues:
Insulin is a potent anti-catabolic hormone.
Low-carb diets are currently being used to reduce prostate cancer via reducing IGF-1.
Ketogenic diets promote acidosis in muscle (reduced Ph), which can increase muscle tissue proteolysis.
Ketogenic diets turn on genes for catabolism. (SEE AMPK section).
Reduced exercise intensity
Carbs suppress cortisol
Lowers SHBG (i.e., lowers free testosterone)
The study was published in the Journal of Applied Physiology and reported that performing resistance training in a glycogen-depleted state results in impaired genes for muscle hypertrophy. The study follows a 2005 study in which researchers from the Human Performance Lab in Indiana reported that a glycogen-depletion diet blunts the expression of the muscle protein Akt. Akt, or protein kinase B (PKB), is an important molecule in cellular signaling. Akt is also able to induce protein synthesis pathways and is therefore a key signaling protein in the cellular pathways that lead to skeletal muscle hypertrophy and general tissue growth.
Creer A, Gallagher P, Slivka D, Jemiolo B, Fink W, Trappe S. Influence of muscle glycogen availability on ERK1/2 and Akt signaling after resistance exercise in human skeletal muscle. J Appl Physiol, 2005 Sep;99(3):950-6.
I'm on a 21 days ketogenic diet with a severe deficit. 18 days left now. In these 18 days I won't end up losing all my muscle right? and damn! muscle loss issue is a big thing- if it's true-once this 18 day period is over I'll be back to my regular carb intake because well I like muscles lol
My Diary is also open.
I got it from a poster- not belittling the effort of the poster for posting but just wanted to confirm
Ketogenic diets aren't optimal for trying to put on muscle mass. There are signaling processes that aren't activated properly when trying to be anabolic. One of them is mTOR. Carbs help with protein synthesis, insulin, and recovery which get highly reduced on a ketogenic diet.
Other issues:
Insulin is a potent anti-catabolic hormone.
Low-carb diets are currently being used to reduce prostate cancer via reducing IGF-1.
Ketogenic diets promote acidosis in muscle (reduced Ph), which can increase muscle tissue proteolysis.
Ketogenic diets turn on genes for catabolism. (SEE AMPK section).
Reduced exercise intensity
Carbs suppress cortisol
Lowers SHBG (i.e., lowers free testosterone)
The study was published in the Journal of Applied Physiology and reported that performing resistance training in a glycogen-depleted state results in impaired genes for muscle hypertrophy. The study follows a 2005 study in which researchers from the Human Performance Lab in Indiana reported that a glycogen-depletion diet blunts the expression of the muscle protein Akt. Akt, or protein kinase B (PKB), is an important molecule in cellular signaling. Akt is also able to induce protein synthesis pathways and is therefore a key signaling protein in the cellular pathways that lead to skeletal muscle hypertrophy and general tissue growth.
Creer A, Gallagher P, Slivka D, Jemiolo B, Fink W, Trappe S. Influence of muscle glycogen availability on ERK1/2 and Akt signaling after resistance exercise in human skeletal muscle. J Appl Physiol, 2005 Sep;99(3):950-6.
I'm on a 21 days ketogenic diet with a severe deficit. 18 days left now. In these 18 days I won't end up losing all my muscle right? and damn! muscle loss issue is a big thing- if it's true-once this 18 day period is over I'll be back to my regular carb intake because well I like muscles lol
My Diary is also open.
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Replies
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Severe deficit? Most people will lose some muscle on a hypocaloric diet. Sufficient protein + resistance training should maintain muscle mass, even on a ketogenic diet.
But otherwise, most of that info looks legit. Except that "reduced exercise intensity" goes away after about a month.
Check out ketogains:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/
If you're on twitter, follow this guy:
https://twitter.com/SBakerMD
Ask him about muscle and intensity loss on a ketogenic diet.
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That means Keto diet isn't long term sustainable for someone who plans to go on bulk and or does heavy lifting for the purpose of gaining muscle mass.Severe deficit? Most people will lose some muscle on a hypocaloric diet. Sufficient protein + resistance training should maintain muscle mass, even on a ketogenic diet.
But otherwise, most of that info looks legit. Except that "reduced exercise intensity" goes away after about a month.
Check out ketogains:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/
If you're on twitter, follow this guy:
https://twitter.com/SBakerMD
Ask him about muscle and intensity loss on a ketogenic diet.0 -
Ask the ketogains guys why they do it. Carbs and insulin are anabolic, but they'll also cause a bunch of fat gain during a bulk.0
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The guy that runs ketogains has been doing keto body building for something like 10 or 15 years. Here's some of his responses to the myths:Everyone tells me I need carbs to build muscle and muscle cannot be build on keto.
Busted. It is entirely possible to build lean mass on keto. Everyone who tells you this, does not really know how muscle building works.
The basics to build muscle, are (in a very simplified way):
Eating enough protein (protein is the building block of muscle tissue) - as per the FAQ, between 0.8 up 1.2g per lean pound (more is not necessarily better).
Eating at a caloric surplus - to build muscle, you need to eat above your TDEE. You can't build from sweat alone. The excess calories can come from protein, carbs or fat, (preferably, from the latter two, as protein is better used for repair and growth). If you are following a ketogenic diet, your surplus of calories comes from fats.
Strength training that stimulates the muscle with progressive overload and causes muscle hypertrophy .
Rest.
Carbs are good for muscle building because they promote insulin release, which is an anabolic hormone and because they replenish glycogen. But this does not mean that you can't build muscle nor replenish glycogen on keto. A theory is that a ketogenic diet can be very good for lean mass growth (improved body composition, less body fat gain) while a traditional high carb diet for total weight gain (meaning you could also gain a little more fat)Keto will cause muscle wastage and prevent hypertrophy.
Busted. While strength gains may be slowed initially during fat adaptation, it is very difficult (contrary to popular opinion) to lose lean mass on a ketogenic diet. As long as one eats enough protein (as per the guidelines here in the FAQ), muscle loss will be a non issue. Muscle hypertrophy will not be hindered by the lack of carbohydrates (read the myth above). The initial weight loss some people may experience, when doing keto is water loss, not muscle loss. Check this article for an example of how dramatic water loss can impact muscle size, visually.
Also, check the image. First Pic is hydrated, second dehydrated, taken one day apart.
More studies:
"Body Composition and Hormonal Responses to a Carbohydrate Restricted Diet" Jeff S. Volek et al
In summary, a 6 week carbohydrate restricted diet resulted in a favorable response in body composition (decreased fat mass and increased lean body mass) in normal weight men. Our results indicate that endocrine adaptations may partially mediate the accelerated fat loss, in particular the decrease in circulating insulin concentrations.
"Very-low-carbohydrate diets and preservation of muscle mass" Anssi H Manninen
Although more long-term studies are needed before a firm conclusion can be drawn, it appears, from most literature studied, that a VLCARB is, if anything, protective against muscle protein catabolism during energy restriction, provided that it contains adequate amounts of protein..
Also, resistance training helps prevent lean mass (muscle) loss on keto:
The aim of the present study was to compare the effects of 10 weeks resistance training in combination with either a regular diet (Ex) or a low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet (Lc+Ex) in overweight women on body weight and body composition. ... The Lc+Ex group lost 5.6 ± 2.9 kg of fat mass (p = 0.001) with no significant change in lean body mass (LBM) Jabekk PT, et al. "Resistance training in overweight women on a ketogenic diet conserved lean body mass while reducing body fat."[2] Nutr Metab (Lond). 2010 Mar 2;7:17. doi: 10.1186/1743-7075-7-17.HALP! I'm losing strength / Muscle / Endurance! It must be this damned keto diet, its a fad!!!
Before you jump into conclusions, stop, READ THE FAQ, and answer these questions:
Are you drinking enough water? Supplementing with Sodium, Potassium, Magnesium?
If not, be sure to do so. Check the guidelines on this FAQ.
How long exactly have you been on keto?
Full keto adaptation takes around 8-12 weeks, so even though you are seeing results in weight loss, exercise performance suffers at the beginning of the diet. Keto on, and you will reap the rewards.
How long have you been exercising (did you exercise before keto, or are you new to exercise?)
This goes along with the first question, if you exercised before keto you will notice a drop of performance. This is temporary. If not, well, you are doing something new. That is how it goes. New exercises, new diet. Its natural. Keto on.
What is your current weight? BF%? How many calories are you ingesting?
You may be at a too low caloric deficit, not eating adequate protein, etc. Remember to recalculate every 4 weeks if you are having big weight fluctuations. Use the Ketogains Macro Calculator (Ketogains.com)
Rest / Sleep
Are you taking off days? How many? Enough sleep? How many hours of sleep time are you getting? Your body needs rest. Growth / repair hormones are released when you sleep. So be sure to get some quality time or your results and performance will suffer.
I'm tired, I need carbs
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/wiki/index9 -
Also, starving yourself is a confounding factor in your results. Any muscle loss you experience cannot necessarily be attributed to the ketogenic diet alone, because you're also potentially depriving your body of the resources needed to at least maintain muscle mass.
Side note -- don't confuse changes in lean body mass with changes in muscle mass. Muscle is lean mass, but not all lean mass is muscle. Since water and glycogen count in that number, you'll likely see a drop in lean mass, but the vast majority of that is non-muscular.7 -
Carbs are good for muscle building because they promote insulin release, which is an anabolic hormone and because they replenish glycogen. But this does not mean that you can't build muscle nor replenish glycogen on keto. A theory is that a ketogenic diet can be very good for lean mass growth (improved body composition, less body fat gain) while a traditional high carb diet for total weight gain (meaning you could also gain a little more fat)
To me, this is key. These guys understand that carbs are effective. But they have other motivations to avoid them, including a desire to gain less fat during a bulk.1 -
Another question guys- 16 days left for this diet.
Do I need re-feed days on which I have to bump up carbs from 50 grams to upto a certain number?0 -
Sounds like you're trying to do some sort of quick-fix cut. In that case, no. I mean it won't kill you, but it'll slow down your fat loss, and you'll regain a bunch of water weight.
It takes something like 4-6 weeks to "adapt." In quotes because nobody really knows what that means, but one of adaptations seems to be that you'll refill muscle glycogen more efficiently from GNG, so no need for a carb "re-feed" if you make it that far.1 -
Sounds like you're trying to do some sort of quick-fix cut. In that case, no. I mean it won't kill you, but it'll slow down your fat loss, and you'll regain a bunch of water weight.
It takes something like 4-6 weeks to "adapt." In quotes because nobody really knows what that means, but one of adaptations seems to be that you'll refill muscle glycogen more efficiently from GNG, so no need for a carb "re-feed" if you make it that far.
My diary is open -if you want , you can have a look what I'm trying to do.
I read Lyle McDonalds book and got inspired by it to try it. His goes on for longer but I rather not because my choices are limited being a vegetarian and keeping everything carbs below 50 grams is hard for me.
So far I've dropped 3.4 lbs (water weight I'd assume) in 4 days. If I could drop 10 -12 lbs more I'd be ecstatic lol -I'll gain it right back when I get back on my "normal" diet because carbs hold more water but I'm okay with that.0 -
Quick note that might help!! I was wondering something very similar and I can look up the information again to quote if necessary. However it's entirely possible to gain muscle and remain in ketosis. What I read is that people who lift heavy weights can fudge their carbs a little more than those who do not. The reason being the muscles consume the carbs. I don't know the specifics and it's worth looking into. (Most people would incorporate complex carbs once or twice a week. They stated doing so never once kicked them out of ketosis because of their workout regimen).
Personally I don't lift enough to make that work I think. ^^ But can be useful for others!!0 -
Yeah, I was still making ketones when consuming 100g/d carbs. Let's do some math!
A guy like me will burn 500 kcal with a fast 30 minute run. Depending on speed, half those calories might come from glucose. So that means I'd burn around 60g of glucose during the run. Depending on timing, that 100g of carbs *might* help replenish glycogen.
But is that a reason to do a carb refeed? No.
My muscle glycogen stores would have been refilled via GNG eventually even at 20g carbs.
Exercise gives you a little more control over fuel burning, but the timing of consumption still matters, and the most likely scenario is that extra carbs would refill liver glycogen, stop ketosis, convert to fat via DNL, insulin levels would rise, your kidneys would start retaining sodium again, you'd gain water weight, and it would take a couple days to get back on track.
Why risk it?6 -
Don't mind me- I'm logging my journey
1500 daily calories Carbs 56g (15%) , Protein 94g (25%) , Fats 100g (60%) - However fats ends up being at 110g and carbs go to 46grams.
My maintenance is 2700-2900 calories according to my weight and activity levels (TDEE)
Monday 30 May- I was not able to pull 305- I did pull it off the ground but couldn't complete the lift. Tried three time. Knees caved in. Didn't get full sleep last night. Weight is already down to 198.6 from 200.4 since Saturday morning.
18 days to go
May 31- Had hiccups today and down to 197.6 lbs. Got hiccups at work and during afternoon out of no where. Seems like it's working. Lethargy is slowly going away.
17 days to go
Did not see a weight drop today however there was 0.1% drop in fat. Device I use is BI which is prone to 5-10% error as I've heard but for general trend purposes I'm using it. I'm getting full faster on the same food for some reason. Cravings are increasing but my sense of smell has increased LoL -now I can basically taste the other cooked food at home via its aroma.
16 days to go
Saw weight drop 0.4lb today but I was amazed with the fat drop of 0.4%. I missed my OHP PR by 20lbs.
15 days to go
I have cravings but I am not hungry. Not sure how this is even possible. I think because I'm craving something other than what I'm already eating lol.
14 days to go
Time passes much faster while I'm at work. Now even when I play Skyrim and have to collect food - I feel ok compared to before where I wanted to taste all those things myself lol
13 days to go
Weight was down to 194.6lbs and fat is at 19.1% -From lower than 50 g carbs all week. Today I raised them to 96g. Ate white rice with Kidney beans. Back to Normal tomorrow.
So 7 days weigh-in - 5.6lbs in a week. Inches lost 0.5 waist and 0.6-0.7 from belly.
12 days to go
I gained 1 lb today- it was water weight because I measured myself after the workout and I had already lost 0.8 lbs out of that gained weight. So far so good.
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11 days to go
Weight is back to 194.6 which it was on last Sunday but fat % is down more than was it was last Sun from 19.3 to 19% -could be just an error but since it's for trend purposes I'll take what I'm getting. This week I have not done strength training at all yet. I'll be doing it on Wed-Thur-Fri - So far I've been doing 21 mins boxing - 3 min rounds for each side.
Mentally I've lost little bit of heart because I've missed my PRs last week. I haven't taken any break since Jan 1 and have been at it. So maybe this is body's way of telling me to lighter the load for few weeks?
Oh well, I'll continue to push as hard as I can for these 2 weeks.0 -
Nothing wrong with deloading and really nailing form. Deload and slow your rep down a bunch, and pause and hold at the bottom or top of the form where it's hardest, and you'll still get an amazing workout. That's just what I'd do anyway.
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baconslave wrote: »Nothing wrong with deloading and really nailing form. Deload and slow your rep down a bunch, and pause and hold at the bottom or top of the form where it's hardest, and you'll still get an amazing workout. That's just what I'd do anyway.
Thanks but it's not about form. It feels like the "oomph" factor or the "push" has faded a bit. I was on 5/3/1 and was hitting new PRs my total even hit 905-910 during deficit but during this strict harsh 21 days. It's gone down now , it's disheartening but it'll be recovered back soon.0 -
@viren19890 Because your body hasn't fully adapted to using fat as fuel rather than glucose, there are going to be decreases in strength. Your body is learning how to use a new fuel source, so there's going to be struggles.
Think of it as your body's fuel system learning how to walk again. You start slow and you definitely don't run on your first go.
Because you're only doing this for a short period of time, you have to remember that the deload is only temporary. For people who do this long-term, they become fat adapted and resume their previous strength, and build on it. It can be disheartening, but you have to push past that mentality. Once you go back to your regular way of eating, I'm sure things will go back to the way they were.5 -
OP, if you're new to training, then PRs come easy at the start. So don't be disheartened if they don't come weekly anymore. Your big deficit may also shortchange you of fitness progress. It's a balance between two different goals. Please up your sodium too if you feel "weak". Good luck 5
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I can't believe anyone told you about the special keto diets/workout ~ that even have acronyms!?
TKD
CKD
SKD
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/wiki/index#wiki_skd.2C_tkd.2C_ckd_-_what.2C_when_and_how.3F
I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / The Recipe Water Fasting / E.A.S.Y. Exercise Program
Penguin thief 0 -
I can't believe anyone told you about the special keto diets/workout ~ that even have acronyms!?
TKD
CKD
SKD
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/wiki/index#wiki_skd.2C_tkd.2C_ckd_-_what.2C_when_and_how.3F
I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / The Recipe Water Fasting / E.A.S.Y. Exercise Program Penguin thief
oh wow thanks a lot.0 -
Also, it's unlikely for me to continue this long term because for me it is just not doable. My whole life would need shuffling around to be able to utilize this kind of program. I eat carbs being a vegetarian , most of my stuff has carbs in them. I don't eat out as often (maybe once-twice a month) rest is homemade, lentils, pulses, roti, naan, vegetables.
However, let's see where I am in my last 10 days.1 -
@viren19890 There are other vegetarian low carbers on here who are successful, (not sure if she lifts but) @Sabine_Stroehm is one. You might want to message her for more info on how to low carb vegetarian style.0
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Are you getting enough protein? You also need full amino acids for the body to work well.0
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I'm not really low carb (I eat SLOW carb), and not really a vegetarian (but hubs is, so our house is).canadjineh wrote: »@viren19890 There are other vegetarian low carbers on here who are successful, (not sure if she lifts but) @Sabine_Stroehm is one. You might want to message her for more info on how to low carb vegetarian style.
OP: if lowering your carbs while being a plant based eater appeals to you, look into eco-atkins. There are lots of options. Or South Beach for vegetarians. South beach isn't really low carb, but it can be.
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viren19890 wrote: »
That means Keto diet isn't long term sustainable for someone who plans to go on bulk and or does heavy lifting for the purpose of gaining muscle mass.Severe deficit? Most people will lose some muscle on a hypocaloric diet. Sufficient protein + resistance training should maintain muscle mass, even on a ketogenic diet.
But otherwise, most of that info looks legit. Except that "reduced exercise intensity" goes away after about a month.
Check out ketogains:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/
If you're on twitter, follow this guy:
https://twitter.com/SBakerMD
Ask him about muscle and intensity loss on a ketogenic diet.
Several of our posters would disagree.2 -
I think it's generally going to be sub-optimal for performance for intense exercise for most people.0
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Thanks all for response. I might have missed mentioning this but based on my lifestyle it'll be hard.
It's all about habits -i'm aware of this process so I'd be able to make use of this but trying to have more Fats than carbs in my diet but problem is this diet is all or nothing lol
Either you are in ketosis or you are not. There doesn't seem to a middle ground. I lift 5 days a week.
Mon-Thur- Lower
Tues-Fri - Upper
Wed - Arms
Rest -Sat/Sun
Household eating habits are different as well. I have incorporated various foods in my diet though. Like Almond instead of regular milk, cottage cheese with very low carb high fat/protein ratio. Nuts, almonds, walnuts.
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10 days to go
Weight is 194.6 lb. It's been 3 days without any drop -I'm assuming that water weight is gone and something deeper might be happening.
Energy levels are fine for everyday things but workout still seems scary however I feel fine doing cardio lol which was opposite before I started this.0 -
Generally speaking there are very few on/off switches in the body and substrate utilization is no exception to this.
I'll be very clear here so that my words aren't taken otherwise -- I have no issues with low carb dieting for certain populations. It's a great solution for some people and moreover -- if it works well for YOU, then who gives a *kitten* what anyone else says about it, that's the bottom line.
But having said that, there's many ways to skin a cat. The BEST way for you to lose fat and gain muscle/strength will be to find a diet you can ADHERE TO such that you can TRAIN EFFECTIVELY and meet your nutritional needs.
That could be low carb, it could be high carb, it could be something in between.
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Maybe try some MCT oil for quick energy prior to workouts0
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Generally speaking there are very few on/off switches in the body and substrate utilization is no exception to this.
I'll be very clear here so that my words aren't taken otherwise -- I have no issues with low carb dieting for certain populations. It's a great solution for some people and moreover -- if it works well for YOU, then who gives a *kitten* what anyone else says about it, that's the bottom line.
But having said that, there's many ways to skin a cat. The BEST way for you to lose fat and gain muscle/strength will be to find a diet you can ADHERE TO such that you can TRAIN EFFECTIVELY and meet your nutritional needs.
That could be low carb, it could be high carb, it could be something in between.
I actually agree with most of this.
However, I think the bigger problem for the OP regarding sustainability, and more immediately, his energy levels during workouts is his overall lack of food, period, not so much his lack of carbs or him being ketogenic.
The guys at Ketogains prove that one can work out just fine while ketogenic, and gain plenty of muscle mass. The caveat is that they eat sufficient amounts of food.
Viren, here, however, is a 26 year old male attempting to do and progress on a 5/3/1 lifting program on a whopping 1500 calories...and wondering why he's wearing out. For what he's doing, he should probably be eating double that. Hell, when I'm that active, I, a 28 year old woman with metabolic issues, can lose weight on double that when I'm eating right for my body.
While being a vegetarian may exclude him from sustaining very low carbohydrate levels (and that's fine), it's disingenuous in this case to blame his current complaints on the carbs or lack thereof, which appears to be what he's attempting to do.
No one here supports severe deficits, especially if things aren't working right. Additionally, while many of us do end up that way, we don't specifically advocate the very, very low levels of carbohydrates. That's not necessary for everyone, and certainly not feasible for some, and we encourage everyone to find what works for them.6
This discussion has been closed.