Keto summit
Replies
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cstehansen wrote: »retirehappy wrote: »Foamroller wrote: »@RalfLott. I understand your battle in getting the doc to take insulin test. Here the government pays it so the docs are very conservative in taking "unnecessary "tests. But there might be another proxy that could work, besides the symptom of no hunger.
Many of the people who comment on Dr Jason Fung's blog posts are T2D. Often they have good insights. I found this gem buried under there in this post:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/failure-blood-glucose-paradigm/
Ben Fury September 29, 2016 | Reply
All you need is fasting triglycerides and glucose to guesstimate insulin resistance fairly accurately.
“A novel criterion for identifying metabolically obese but normal weight individuals using the product of triglycerides and glucose”
SH Lee et al, 2015
“The TyG index is a simple marker that correlates well with the degree of insulin resistance measured by hyperinsulinemic-euglycemic clamp studies.”
TyG index Method:
Multiply fasting TG and BG.
Divide by 2
Run Natural Log (ln) [NOT (log)]
Men with values over 8.82 and women with values over 8.73 are most likely to be insulin resistant and have double the chance of developing type 2 diabetes in the future.
Handy PDF with the formula from Dr. Georgia Ede:
http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/insulin-resistance-tests.pdf
We're all frontiers in this kind of thing. It's not perfect, but we have to make ado with what we currently got.
I am wondering if I did this correctly, I used the scientific calculator on my PC, put in my fasting triglyceride and fasting glucose numbers, divided by 2, hit the log function key and came up with 0.30102999566398119521373889472449.
Since it is talking about 8.x numbers, I doubted my outcome. I used the Ede's reference . I used my last test results from my dr. in June.
I am not diabetic, my A1C tests are below 5.5 consistently but not much, that is why I wondered about this formula's number.
I am guessing you have a problem with your your math somewhere. First, your BG should be somewhere between 80-100 and triglycerides are hopefully under 150 and even on the very low end would likely be at least 30. Taking the smallest of each, you would have 80 x 30 = 2400. Divide that by 2 and you have 1200. The ln of that is 7.09.
I ran the numbers again this time
102 x 75/2=3825 log is 3.582....
Thanks
I'm thinking I am not terribly insulin resistant now, correct? 0 -
retirehappy wrote: »I ran the numbers again this time
102 x 75/2=3825 log is 3.582....
Thanks I'm thinking I am not terribly insulin resistant now, correct?
Here's the deal. You have to use an animal related to "log" (nope, not branch, twig, or cabin) called the "natural log" which is abbreviated "ln" in math notation and on calculator buttons.
ln(3825)= 8.25 - which is still not shabby!
http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/math/Ln_Calc.htm2 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »@foamroller - MO is morbidly obese - yes, despite how much I've lost, I still qualify as morbidly obese. I read somewhere up in the main article that it mainly applies to not heavily obese people.
And my insulin levels are in the range of what they have been, even at my heaviest. Low carb has not made my glucose go down, but it was not problematic in the first place (I guess my obesity really has been in the process of protecting me from diabetes!). My triglycerides however, those have improved dramatically.
And with the built in insulin resistance and binge eating tendencies, "subjective feeling of hunger" is something still elusive to me. Like all morning yesterday, I felt "kinda" hungry, but I was able to fast through without much effort. Then "more hungry" at lunch, wanted all the food...made a reasonable portion and it was almost too much food. Then last night for dinner, made reasonable portions, and at double what I expected despite waiting in between because I was still really hungry.
BHB?
Oh, I dunno all abbreviations, Ty for clearing that up
BHB is Beta-Hydroxybutyrate one of the ketone bodies that are produced.
Re hunger. I do understand that feeling hungry is awful. I remember that feeling all too well. But if avoiding that feeling and discomfort at all cost is holding you back, it could be worthwhile to inspect and be mindful about what that hunger is for you. In which context, physical symptoms, emotional ties etc. I'm always "hungrier" when stressed or avoiding uncomfortable feelings. It can be hard to differentiate between true and fake hunger.
Another aspect is that it's possible you're still so insulin resistant that your insulin is high ALL THE TIME, instead of naturally tapering down 3-10 hrs after meals. Not just 2ketodudes, but also ButterBob says keto fixed a lot of things, but only fasting lowered their FBG and therefore insulin beyond what keto alone can do. I understand this is not what you wanna hear. But if you desp wanna fix your hunger issue, fasting works as a reset of hunger. If you can live with the current hunger and don't wanna fast, experiment with other methods to accept the hunger. I highly recommend watching ButterBob's video on WHY elevated insulin levels is a physiological problem that is actually solvable.
https://youtu.be/7sAqy1lnWXo
I truly believe that for some of us going lowcarb is not enough to repair deranged metabolism. At least it wasn't for me. Good luck, hun
Edit: When fasting, in the transition it may take 2-3 weeks of body rebelling. It wants to be fed when it's used to get meals. It will throw tantrums like a toddler. If you can accept this discomfort for a bit of time, it will eventually calm down, just like a child when it realizes you're not gonna be an enabler for unwanted behavior.4 -
Foamroller wrote: »I understand your battle in getting the doc to take insulin test. Here the government pays it so the docs are very conservative in taking "unnecessary "tests. But there might be another proxy that could work, besides the symptom of no hunger.
Many of the people who comment on Dr Jason Fung's blog posts are T2D. Often they have good insights. I found this gem buried under there in this post:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/failure-blood-glucose-paradigm/
Ben Fury September 29, 2016 | Reply
All you need is fasting triglycerides and glucose to guesstimate insulin resistance fairly accurately.
“A novel criterion for identifying metabolically obese but normal weight individuals using the product of triglycerides and glucose”
SH Lee et al, 2015
“The TyG index is a simple marker that correlates well with the degree of insulin resistance measured by hyperinsulinemic-euglycemic clamp studies.”
TyG index Method:
Multiply fasting TG and BG.
Divide by 2
Run Natural Log (ln) [NOT (log)]
Men with values over 8.82 and women with values over 8.73 are most likely to be insulin resistant and have double the chance of developing type 2 diabetes in the future.
Handy PDF with the formula from Dr. Georgia Ede:
http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/insulin-resistance-tests.pdf
We're all frontiers in this kind of thing. It's not perfect, but we have to make ado with what we currently got.
Interesting formula. My last triglycerides were below normal low, which I think is caused by my celiac disease (fat absorption issues from damaged intestinal villi possibly). Anyways, I got a 6.18. Odd because I get reactive hypoglycemia from too much insulin being released after a carby meal which usually means IR.2 -
Foamroller wrote: »I understand your battle in getting the doc to take insulin test. Here the government pays it so the docs are very conservative in taking "unnecessary "tests. But there might be another proxy that could work, besides the symptom of no hunger.
Many of the people who comment on Dr Jason Fung's blog posts are T2D. Often they have good insights. I found this gem buried under there in this post:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/failure-blood-glucose-paradigm/
Ben Fury September 29, 2016 | Reply
All you need is fasting triglycerides and glucose to guesstimate insulin resistance fairly accurately.
“A novel criterion for identifying metabolically obese but normal weight individuals using the product of triglycerides and glucose”
SH Lee et al, 2015
“The TyG index is a simple marker that correlates well with the degree of insulin resistance measured by hyperinsulinemic-euglycemic clamp studies.”
TyG index Method:
Multiply fasting TG and BG.
Divide by 2
Run Natural Log (ln) [NOT (log)]
Men with values over 8.82 and women with values over 8.73 are most likely to be insulin resistant and have double the chance of developing type 2 diabetes in the future.
Handy PDF with the formula from Dr. Georgia Ede:
http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/insulin-resistance-tests.pdf
We're all frontiers in this kind of thing. It's not perfect, but we have to make ado with what we currently got.
Interesting formula. My last triglycerides were below normal low, which I think is caused by my celiac disease (fat absorption issues from damaged intestinal villi possibly). Anyways, I got a 6.18. Odd because I get reactive hypoglycemia from too much insulin being released after a carby meal which usually means IR.
Using triglycerides strikes me as odd, given their propensity to bounce around. But apparently the TyG formula, where reliable, outperformed the HOMA model in estimating insulin resistance, suggesting that IR is a moving target.
If so, it seems to suggest constant vigilance by T2Ds and therapy aimed at lowering IR (which may in turn suggest long-term Glucophage therapy, even after blood glucose levels have fallen to tolerable levels).
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/ukpds-futility-blood-sugar-lowering-t2d
I fear we are barely into the foothills. May those of us still around in 20 years report back as to whose advice we should have followed.......2 -
Amen.1
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Using triglycerides strikes me as odd, given their propensity to bounce around. But apparently the TyG formula, where reliable, outperformed the HOMA model in estimating insulin resistance, suggesting that IR is a moving target.
If so, it seems to suggest constant vigilance by T2Ds and therapy aimed at lowering IR (which may in turn suggest long-term Glucophage therapy, even after blood glucose levels have fallen to tolerable levels).
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/ukpds-futility-blood-sugar-lowering-t2d
I fear we are barely into the foothills. May those of us still around in 20 years report back as to whose advice we should have followed.......
@RalfLott, I was on Janumet, which really helped bring my BG down to low 100s, 90s, and 80s. but the Janu part of that med worked to raise insulin to lower BG. Last month my dr. switched me to metformin, which didn't do a good job lowering BG and was disastrous to my digestive system - could barely leave the house for fear of a major problem. So my dr. switched me to Invokana, which works by releasing BG through the kidneys. BG have come way down since Thursday evening when I started the new med. Now I'm wondering if this is a problem med, like Dr. Bernstein and Dr. Fung talk about. I know they both think metformin is a safer med.
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Hi, @sherryrichie.
Metformin can be a great med, provided you observe 2 cardinal rules I got from Dr. Bernstein (but which you rarely hear from any other doc):
1. Take name brand Glucophage XR, not generic Metformin. The switch transformed my digestive system from a 24/7 battlefield to a calm prairie almost overnight.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10394798/t2d-glucophage-name-brand-metformin-generic
2. A full dose is 2000mg+, which you may be able to tolerate better if you work up to it over the course of a couple weeks.
If you can forget and forgive the recent fireworks, perhaps you might give Glucophage another shot.
Good luck!0 -
Thanks, @RalfLott. This was interesting. I will discuss the Glucophage XR with my Dr.0
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@sherryrichie -
Not to be cynical, but most docs, even most diabetes docs, apparently have no idea about Glucophage vs. metformin. (Perhaps because they lack Dr. Bernstein's experience with thousands of diabetes patients, as well as his keen eye/nose for detail; he has mentioned the superiority of of name-brand Glucophage over metformin in each of his last several teleseminars. Do watch a few if you get a chance!)
When I explained the incendiary effects of the generic metformin my pharmacy started dispensing to my endocrinologist, she was happy to send a statement of need to my prescription insurer, which eventually threw in the towel and agreed to cover Glucophage, albeit with a higher co-pay.
My riddle now is whether some combo of XR and immediate-release Glucophage (for before meals) might be the most effective way to take it........
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retirehappy wrote: »I ran the numbers again this time
102 x 75/2=3825 log is 3.582....
Thanks I'm thinking I am not terribly insulin resistant now, correct?
Here's the deal. You have to use an animal related to "log" (nope, not branch, twig, or cabin) called the "natural log" which is abbreviated "ln" in math notation and on calculator buttons.
ln(3825)= 8.25 - which is still not shabby!
http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/math/Ln_Calc.htm
Thanks so much. I really don't use those kinds of calculations in my world. I thought that was still way too low, but hey I am a computer nerd not a math geek.
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retirehappy wrote: »retirehappy wrote: »I ran the numbers again this time
102 x 75/2=3825 log is 3.582....
Thanks I'm thinking I am not terribly insulin resistant now, correct?
Here's the deal. You have to use an animal related to "log" (nope, not branch, twig, or cabin) called the "natural log" which is abbreviated "ln" in math notation and on calculator buttons.
ln(3825)= 8.25 - which is still not shabby!
http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/math/Ln_Calc.htm
Thanks so much. I really don't use those kinds of calculations in my world. I thought that was still way too low, but hey I am a computer nerd not a math geek.
But, alas, your numbers are pretty good, regardless what flavor nerd/geek you come in!0
