Intermittent fasting vs. Keto
jasperdog52554
Posts: 115 Member
OK, so i haven't been keto all that long, but I have been doing some thinking. The only times in my adult life I have ever lost a significant amount of weight was when I have eaten only 1x per day. Way before we knew it was called IF.
Keto is going well so far, approx 8lbs in 3 weeks. -6 wk 1, +2 wk 2, -3 wk 3. (approx values rounded from my digital scale)
So, I'm wondering, for someone without serious health issues, does IF work just as well as Keto? I'm assuming it is the limiting of the insulin releases that is the common thread here. I really get into trouble if I eat 3x per day, and prefer larger meals over snacks.
I find lots of info about keto and IF together, which I tend to fall into most days. Curious on the comparison aspect.
anyone else notice anything similar? I'm continuing keto for now, but part of me thinks it would be nice to be one of those "in moderation" people- assuming I could be. Hasn't worked out that way so far.
Keto is going well so far, approx 8lbs in 3 weeks. -6 wk 1, +2 wk 2, -3 wk 3. (approx values rounded from my digital scale)
So, I'm wondering, for someone without serious health issues, does IF work just as well as Keto? I'm assuming it is the limiting of the insulin releases that is the common thread here. I really get into trouble if I eat 3x per day, and prefer larger meals over snacks.
I find lots of info about keto and IF together, which I tend to fall into most days. Curious on the comparison aspect.
anyone else notice anything similar? I'm continuing keto for now, but part of me thinks it would be nice to be one of those "in moderation" people- assuming I could be. Hasn't worked out that way so far.
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Keto isn't necessary for weight loss at all. You can lower insulin without keto. Low carb works well too. But keto provides a constant state of ketosis which has less to do with weight loss and more to do with overall health benefits or therapeutic application.
If you're eating all foods in moderation you're no doubt eating somewhat low carb anyway. Especially if you're being mindful to make that one big meal nutritionally sound. So that's a big reason why IF works but there's also the fact that you go without eating and remain fasted for longer times so you start to get some benefits of fasting in there too. Which maybe has some short term ketone production. Depends on how insulin sensitive you are and how active how quickly you'll start making ketones. But it's not the ketones that create fat loss. It's fat breakdown that creates the ketones. It doesn't matter if it's fat from your butt or your cup. So if you're fasting and producing ketones, then you KNOW they came from your butt.
That's one reason people love keto and IF. The other is because it's just super easy to do it while keto or even low carb.
As far as trying to decide if you work within the all things in moderation method, I guess you'll have to decide how well that's ever worked before. If you can do it, and aren't looking for the therapeutic benefits of ketones, then go for it.10 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Keto isn't necessary for weight loss at all. You can lower insulin without keto. Low carb works well too. But keto provides a constant state of ketosis which has less to do with weight loss and more to do with overall health benefits or therapeutic application.
If you're eating all foods in moderation you're no doubt eating somewhat low carb anyway. Especially if you're being mindful to make that one big meal nutritionally sound. So that's a big reason why IF works but there's also the fact that you go without eating and remain fasted for longer times so you start to get some benefits of fasting in there too. Which maybe has some short term ketone production. Depends on how insulin sensitive you are and how active how quickly you'll start making ketones. But it's not the ketones that create fat loss. It's fat breakdown that creates the ketones. It doesn't matter if it's fat from your butt or your cup. So if you're fasting and producing ketones, then you KNOW they came from your butt.
That's one reason people love keto and IF. The other is because it's just super easy to do it while keto or even low carb.
As far as trying to decide if you work within the all things in moderation method, I guess you'll have to decide how well that's ever worked before. If you can do it, and aren't looking for the therapeutic benefits of ketones, then go for it.
I prefer from my butt!
And also hope that anyone that sees this reads your entire post, otherwise that will sound quite inappropriate!4 -
If you can naturally do IF, go for that. You can eat pretty much whatever floats your boat that way.0
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Good FB page for those doing any versions of IF (low carb/keto or any other WOE) Fung Shweigh inspired by Dr. Jason Fung . Lots of fasting support for all sizes and food plans. You might want to ask to join but no 'preaching' about particular ways of eating except what Doc Fung suggests ie. lower the carbs a bit to make it easier and stay away from processed stuff, eat more 'real' foods. I find it's pretty good - some inspiring people and results.2
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I just this morning listened to the podcast version of Dr. Rhonda Patrick's interview with Valter Longo on his fasting mimicking diet, IF and various related topics. It is long, but worth a listen if you don't mind science... I don't think he advocated keto for all, but says it is fine, too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6PyyatqJSE 4 -
I just this morning listened to the podcast version of Dr. Rhonda Patrick's interview with Valter Longo on his fasting mimicking diet, IF and various related topics. It is long, but worth a listen if you don't mind science... I don't think he advocated keto for all, but says it is fine, too.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6PyyatqJSE
Great interview!
FYI, here are a few highlights about Longo and his work:
https://www.bluezones.com/2016/04/fasting-for-longevity/
Here are notes to the YouTube vid:In this conversation, Rhonda and Valter discuss...
• The effects of prolonged fasting, which refers to 2-3 day fasting intervals in mice and 4-5 days in humans.
• Dr. Longo’s work on the fasting-mimicking diet, which is 5 day restricted diet that is meant to simulate some of the biological effects of prolonged fasting while still allowing some food.
• How clinical trials have demonstrated efficacy for this diet for type 2 diabetes, multiple sclerosis, and cancer patients.
• Fasting as an inducer of differential stress resistance, where it can simultaneously make cancer cells more sensitive to death while also making healthy cells more resistant to these same death stimuli (such as chemotherapy) which might otherwise induce cell death amongst healthy cells as collateral damage.
• Fasting as a biological state which humans historically experienced with extreme regularity and we may ultimately need in order to mitigate various disease states.
• The effects of prolonged fasting on the immune system, namely, how it clears away damaged white blood cells via autophagy and how this causes hematopoietic stem cells to self renew and make more stem cells and also produce new blood cells to fully replenish the white blood cell population.
• How prolonged fasting causes a shift in the immune cell population towards one that is more representative of youth by normalizing the ratio of myeloid cells to lymphoid cells.
• The positive effects of prolonged fasting and the fasting-mimicking diet on markers of systemic inflammation, blood glucose levels and other aging biomarkers.
• The conclusions of Dr. Longo & Dr. Marcus Bock’s research comparing 1 week of the fasting-mimicking diet followed by 6 months of mediterranean diet to six months of a ketogenic diet in people with multiple sclerosis.
• The strange, somewhat paradoxical role of autophagy genes in cancer progression and some of the open questions surrounding the exact role that these genes are playing.
• Dr. Longo’s high level thoughts on metformin as an anti-aging drug [Wow!].
• How the growth hormone/IGF-1 axis is one of the most important genetic pathways in aging from yeast to worms to mice to humans.3 -
I do both keto and IF to me they really seem to go hand in hand. I'm usually not hungry in the morning and lunch is easy to skip. I shoot for a 20/4 fast daily. If I'm really busy at work it will turn into a 24 fast. I'm trying to get my insulin resistance under control so I don't think I will ever be one of those people that can eat whatever in moderation.5
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Thanks @camtosh for the video and @RalfLott for the notes. BTW, I have heard from at least 2 places previous about all cause mortality being decreased with metformin even in non-diabetic subjects. I am torn about taking it only because I want to see where I can get my BG without it first. If I stay stalled in the pre-diabetic range, I very well may opt to use it because there is correlation of increased risk of many diseases associated with diabetes that ramp up with any A1c over 5. This is one more reason I think the current guidelines as to what is pre-diabetic and diabetic are too low.2
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cstehansen wrote: »Thanks @camtosh for the video and @RalfLott for the notes. BTW, I have heard from at least 2 places previous about all cause mortality being decreased with metformin even in non-diabetic subjects. I am torn about taking it only because I want to see where I can get my BG without it first. If I stay stalled in the pre-diabetic range, I very well may opt to use it because there is correlation of increased risk of many diseases associated with diabetes that ramp up with any A1c over 5. This is one more reason I think the current guidelines as to what is pre-diabetic and diabetic are too low.
Well when you listen to the video you will hear Londo say he would NEVER take Metformin even in his older age, for aging. His opinion is "what happens to everything else when you block something?". The comment is towards the very tail end of the video.
It was a very interesting video. Among other things, I focused on his comment/s regarding a NEED for exercise and the comment/s he made (about 4 minutes in and then again about 70 minutes in) that it is not the Mimicking Fasting Diet that is key but rather the REFEED. I believe his wording was "it is the refeeding that works-rebuilding the system" and "refeeding is the most important part". He is an advocate of a "Mediterranean" Diet.
His Mimicking Diet (A Periodic Diet that Can Mimic Fasting) can be found here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/260948894 -
cstehansen wrote: »Thanks @camtosh for the video and @RalfLott for the notes. BTW, I have heard from at least 2 places previous about all cause mortality being decreased with metformin even in non-diabetic subjects. I am torn about taking it only because I want to see where I can get my BG without it first. If I stay stalled in the pre-diabetic range, I very well may opt to use it because there is correlation of increased risk of many diseases associated with diabetes that ramp up with any A1c over 5. This is one more reason I think the current guidelines as to what is pre-diabetic and diabetic are too low.
Well when you listen to the video you will hear Londo say he would NEVER take Metformin even in his older age, for aging. His opinion is "what happens to everything else when you block something?". The comment is towards the very tail end of the video.
It was a very interesting video. Among other things, I focused on his comment/s regarding a NEED for exercise and the comment/s he made (about 4 minutes in and then again about 70 minutes in) that it is not the Mimicking Fasting Diet that is key but rather the REFEED. I believe his wording was "it is the refeeding that works-rebuilding the system" and "refeeding is the most important part". He is an advocate of a "Mediterranean" Diet.
His Mimicking Diet (A Periodic Diet that Can Mimic Fasting) can be found here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26094889
Interesting article. Full study at:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4509734/
I think one reason he is an advocate of the Med diet and also of this fasting research is although the native population with this diet had extraordinary health, those in the west adopting it had less. When looking at the natives later, it was realized the area was predominantly Orthodox Christian and as such most fasted 1-2 days a week. Given the completely dumbfounded look most in our culture give at the mere mention of fasting, I am guessing he was looking at finding something that gave the same results without bringing up the dreaded "f" word.4 -
Yep. LOL. That's the one I meant. Copy and pasted the wrong link.
@cstehansen He mentioned in the video he was getting great resistance to fasting with his 18 (I think) cancer patients and the medical community which is why he ended up with the "mimicking fasting" protocol.
I don't talk about diet much in my real world so don't know about dumbfounded looks but, yes. I know I would see a whole bunch of "eye rolling" if I called intermittent fasting (which I don't do) anything more than skipping breakfast. LOL.
Me: "I do 16:8 intermittent fasting. I finish my last meal by 8 PM and don't eat again until after Noon the next day".
Response: "Oh, I see. You skip breakfast".4 -
cstehansen wrote: »Thanks @camtosh for the video and @RalfLott for the notes. BTW, I have heard from at least 2 places previous about all cause mortality being decreased with metformin even in non-diabetic subjects. I am torn about taking it only because I want to see where I can get my BG without it first. If I stay stalled in the pre-diabetic range, I very well may opt to use it because there is correlation of increased risk of many diseases associated with diabetes that ramp up with any A1c over 5. This is one more reason I think the current guidelines as to what is pre-diabetic and diabetic are too low.
Peter Attia md is taking metformin now for preventative measures, as I understand it. I'm looking into it for myself because my liver seems a little overly type A, and keeps kicking out too much sugar. I'm as low carb (under 30g/day) as I am willing to go for my life. I walk most days (that isn't minus 30 something - brrr) amd I still can't keeping my morning BG below a 5... or below a 6 half of the time.
As far as I can tell, metformin doesn't hurt... But I need to read more.1 -
jasperdog52554 wrote: »OK, so i haven't been keto all that long, but I have been doing some thinking. The only times in my adult life I have ever lost a significant amount of weight was when I have eaten only 1x per day. Way before we knew it was called IF.
Keto is going well so far, approx 8lbs in 3 weeks. -6 wk 1, +2 wk 2, -3 wk 3. (approx values rounded from my digital scale)
So, I'm wondering, for someone without serious health issues, does IF work just as well as Keto? I'm assuming it is the limiting of the insulin releases that is the common thread here. I really get into trouble if I eat 3x per day, and prefer larger meals over snacks.
I find lots of info about keto and IF together, which I tend to fall into most days. Curious on the comparison aspect.
anyone else notice anything similar? I'm continuing keto for now, but part of me thinks it would be nice to be one of those "in moderation" people- assuming I could be. Hasn't worked out that way so far.
There is an OMAD (one meal a day) group that you would probably love. Stop by, watch some of Joe's videos, and introduce yourself. You will probably love it once you get through the first couple of adjustment weeks.0 -
kimberlyb6682 wrote: »I do both keto and IF to me they really seem to go hand in hand. I'm usually not hungry in the morning and lunch is easy to skip. I shoot for a 20/4 fast daily. If I'm really busy at work it will turn into a 24 fast. I'm trying to get my insulin resistance under control so I don't think I will ever be one of those people that can eat whatever in moderation.
I started out 16/8 with 2 meals a day. Recently I have moved to one meal a day with a small window also.1 -
Great video! @camtosh thanks for sharing.
I'm glad about the good news re metformin because it looks like I'll have to keep taking it.
@cstehansen I wanted to know how far I would go without metformin too. I hope your results are better than mine. I've been decreasing the amount I take for a year or so, and stopped taking it 6 months ago, with an A1c of 4.9. I kept LC 95% of the time (Summer fruit, ::sigh::). Last A1c? 5.7.
So metformin is probably forever. Damn disease, always ready to up its damage one sneaky BG point at a time.
::flowerforyou::1 -
My A1c was 5.7 and I have a doctors appointment on Monday to discuss all of my labs. I thought 5.7 was borderline, am I wrong? Does that mean I have diabetes? I'm sure my doctor will start me on Metformin.0
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Perlmutter wants people at 4.8-5.4, and Wahls says to shoot for sub-5.2.3
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FYI, name brand Glucophage XR can be *much* easier on your system than some of the many generic versions of metformin (in my experience, like kittens
vs. dynamite 
).
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10394798/t2d-glucophage-name-brand-metformin-generic
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@Debsoz, thanks for the mention of the OMAD group, I had no idea that existed. MFP is pretty huge and there is no easy way to find anything in Groups if you don't already know the titles. The vidoes are very interesting.0
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Bumpity bump time.
Also I think you can do IF with any diet. Keto or lower carb WOE, I don't think you really need IF, but it does compliment it. I have just fallen into IF several days a week. I really love coffee with coconut oil blended in it. Doesn't seem to effect my weight loss/gain negatively or positive. I just enjoy have my coffee and forgetting about food for another 4 hrs. or so. YMMV0 -
I do 20:4 when I'm trying to lose weight. I limit carbs as far as refined sugar and grains go but that is about as low of carbs as I get. I do limit whole grains too but don't eliminate them.
I think cal restriction, fasting, and low carb and a combinations of these are the most effective ways to lose weight.1 -
I'm hoping that will work for maintaining weight. IF and LCHF is getting me to goal, something has to keep me there once I arrive. 2
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Bumping time, for any newbies.0
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@retirehappy
I've lost about 45-lbs and have kept it off for over a year by mostly doing a 16:8 type of diet and some 20:4 thrown in. I also found that I can maintain weight while eating all three meals if I go very low carb for breakfast and lunch while still allowing carbs in the evenings. Typical for me would be eggs and cheese for breakfast and a salad with meat for lunch.
I would still like to lose 20-lbs. I will get there by doing some fasting, some low carb breakfasts and lunches when I do eat, and also a lot of exercise. I really have not ever practiced portion control when I do eat as I eat ad libitum when I eat.2 -
@blambo61 has it been a year to lose the 45, and now you have 20 lbs left to go from an original 65lb goal? Or have you been maintaining for a year after the initial 45, and now have set a new goal?
I've maintained a year after losing 45 lbs but still need to lose 20. I got light enough to do a lot of stuff I like to do exercise wise and now that I'm doing that, it sometimes interferes with my dieting so I'm losing slower. I've also got a bit lazier with the 20:4 but I'm not in a bad place right now. I lost most of my weight in about 7-months or so and have stayed at about 210 since (I actually did sneak back up to 220 twice). I haven't updated this but I'm at 210 right now and have been there without gaining for the last 3-4 months.
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Super late to this party but for any keto, lchf newbies. Keto is a tool, IF is a tool, they can be used together or separate. I am not good at IF yet. I think I over eat coming out of an IF. I think it could be very powerful if you can not go crazy with the calories during the eating window.
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I'm not so good at IF at this point either. I've tried it a few times and I honestly don't get this euphoric sense of energy and non-hunger that everyone talks about. Plus I haven't noticed it doing anything regarding blood sugar. Maybe it will come in time? At this point I'm good with waiting for it to happen naturally.1
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The easiest way to do IF IMO is to do a 16:8 daily. I think that should be within just about anyone's ability, especially those that are LC. Usually when I wake up I get a small wave of hunger soon and I just drink a large glass of cool water. I usually don't get hungry tell about noon or a little later (as long as I didn't pound carbs the night before - if I do that I get hungrier a lot sooner). That is super easy for me after doing a lot of 20:4. Just ride out the couple of minutes of the 1st time you get hungry and make sure you had adequate protein the day before and it should be really easy to fast tell lunch time with just a little water.6
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LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »I'm not so good at IF at this point either. I've tried it a few times and I honestly don't get this euphoric sense of energy and non-hunger that everyone talks about. Plus I haven't noticed it doing anything regarding blood sugar. Maybe it will come in time? At this point I'm good with waiting for it to happen naturally.
Yeah me either. I did 2 stints of 16:8 for a month each. And then did an ADF kind of thing for a few weeks. All that netted me was learning what a cranky b!tch I can be. I still occasionally will do a spontaneous IF, but only if I'm really feeling it, and with the knowledge that if I suddenly get mega hungry before my eating window, I'm going to eat so there won't be blood. I usually make it fine. But only one day at a time. Concurrent fasting days make me exponentially crankier each day. I imagine that I would eventually explode into Taz from Looney Tunes, and the collateral damage would be extensive. 3
This discussion has been closed.