Intermittent fasting vs. Keto
Replies
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The easiest way to do IF IMO is to do a 16:8 daily. I think that should be within just about anyone's ability, especially those that are LC. Usually when I wake up I get a small wave of hunger soon and I just drink a large glass of cool water. I usually don't get hungry tell about noon or a little later (as long as I didn't pound carbs the night before - if I do that I get hungrier a lot sooner). That is super easy for me after doing a lot of 20:4. Just ride out the couple of minutes of the 1st time you get hungry and make sure you had adequate protein the day before and it should be really easy to fast tell lunch time with just a little water.
Getting past that little wave of hunger slash wave of nausea is the hard part for me. I quell that little feeling with food, even though I know if I wait, I'll be fine.1 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »The easiest way to do IF IMO is to do a 16:8 daily. I think that should be within just about anyone's ability, especially those that are LC. Usually when I wake up I get a small wave of hunger soon and I just drink a large glass of cool water. I usually don't get hungry tell about noon or a little later (as long as I didn't pound carbs the night before - if I do that I get hungrier a lot sooner). That is super easy for me after doing a lot of 20:4. Just ride out the couple of minutes of the 1st time you get hungry and make sure you had adequate protein the day before and it should be really easy to fast tell lunch time with just a little water.
Getting past that little wave of hunger slash wave of nausea is the hard part for me. I quell that little feeling with food, even though I know if I wait, I'll be fine.
That little morning wave of hunger only lasts like a minute or two for me and is gone as soon as I drink some water. Just drink water tell don't want anymore 1st thing in the morning and you will probably be good for at leas a couple of hours. I'm usually good tell noon or later as long as I keep drinking water. Very easy for me. Everyone is different I know. Now 20:4, I do have to work at.
If 16:8 is difficult, try 14:10 if you want to try IF. It gets easier and the more you do the easier it gets and you can extend the fast as you get more used to it.3 -
If I drink water on an empty stomach that water is coming right back up
so I drink tea with some butter in it. 1 -
sixaround1 wrote: »If I drink water on an empty stomach that water is coming right back up so I drink tea with some butter in it.
Whatever works!0 -
baconslave wrote: »LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »I'm not so good at IF at this point either. I've tried it a few times and I honestly don't get this euphoric sense of energy and non-hunger that everyone talks about. Plus I haven't noticed it doing anything regarding blood sugar. Maybe it will come in time? At this point I'm good with waiting for it to happen naturally.
Yeah me either. I did 2 stints of 16:8 for a month each. And then did an ADF kind of thing for a few weeks. All that netted me was learning what a cranky b!tch I can be.
I still occasionally will do a spontaneous IF, but only if I'm really feeling it, and with the knowledge that if I suddenly get mega hungry before my eating window, I'm going to eat so there won't be blood. I usually make it fine. But only one day at a time. Concurrent fasting days make me exponentially crankier each day. I imagine that I would eventually explode into Taz from Looney Tunes, and the collateral damage would be extensive.
@baconslave, a memorable self-portrait!1 -
I just this morning listened to the podcast version of Dr. Rhonda Patrick's interview with Valter Longo on his fasting mimicking diet, IF and various related topics. It is long, but worth a listen if you don't mind science... I don't think he advocated keto for all, but says it is fine, too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6PyyatqJSE
Thanks for sharing this last year and those bumping it since then. That is some new info that I am actually grasping after reading so much since 2014.1 -
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »The easiest way to do IF IMO is to do a 16:8 daily. I think that should be within just about anyone's ability, especially those that are LC. Usually when I wake up I get a small wave of hunger soon and I just drink a large glass of cool water. I usually don't get hungry tell about noon or a little later (as long as I didn't pound carbs the night before - if I do that I get hungrier a lot sooner). That is super easy for me after doing a lot of 20:4. Just ride out the couple of minutes of the 1st time you get hungry and make sure you had adequate protein the day before and it should be really easy to fast tell lunch time with just a little water.
Getting past that little wave of hunger slash wave of nausea is the hard part for me. I quell that little feeling with food, even though I know if I wait, I'll be fine.
That little morning wave of hunger only lasts like a minute or two for me and is gone as soon as I drink some water. Just drink water tell don't want anymore 1st thing in the morning and you will probably be good for at leas a couple of hours. I'm usually good tell noon or later as long as I keep drinking water. Very easy for me. Everyone is different I know. Now 20:4, I do have to work at.
If 16:8 is difficult, try 14:10 if you want to try IF. It gets easier and the more you do the easier it gets and you can extend the fast as you get more used to it.
Yup, that's exactly what I've been doing these last few days. Trying to adjust my body to it, for at least a few months.0 -
I decided to abandon my goal for IF for now. I need to make sure my bg is stable first. I think if it happens naturally that's cool but for now, not forcing it1
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »The easiest way to do IF IMO is to do a 16:8 daily. I think that should be within just about anyone's ability, especially those that are LC. Usually when I wake up I get a small wave of hunger soon and I just drink a large glass of cool water. I usually don't get hungry tell about noon or a little later (as long as I didn't pound carbs the night before - if I do that I get hungrier a lot sooner). That is super easy for me after doing a lot of 20:4. Just ride out the couple of minutes of the 1st time you get hungry and make sure you had adequate protein the day before and it should be really easy to fast tell lunch time with just a little water.
Getting past that little wave of hunger slash wave of nausea is the hard part for me. I quell that little feeling with food, even though I know if I wait, I'll be fine.
That little morning wave of hunger only lasts like a minute or two for me and is gone as soon as I drink some water. Just drink water tell don't want anymore 1st thing in the morning and you will probably be good for at leas a couple of hours. I'm usually good tell noon or later as long as I keep drinking water. Very easy for me. Everyone is different I know. Now 20:4, I do have to work at.
If 16:8 is difficult, try 14:10 if you want to try IF. It gets easier and the more you do the easier it gets and you can extend the fast as you get more used to it.
It's definitely getting easier. In fact, I'm at 20 hrs today. I just want to see how it feels as I go a bit longer.4 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »The easiest way to do IF IMO is to do a 16:8 daily. I think that should be within just about anyone's ability, especially those that are LC. Usually when I wake up I get a small wave of hunger soon and I just drink a large glass of cool water. I usually don't get hungry tell about noon or a little later (as long as I didn't pound carbs the night before - if I do that I get hungrier a lot sooner). That is super easy for me after doing a lot of 20:4. Just ride out the couple of minutes of the 1st time you get hungry and make sure you had adequate protein the day before and it should be really easy to fast tell lunch time with just a little water.
Getting past that little wave of hunger slash wave of nausea is the hard part for me. I quell that little feeling with food, even though I know if I wait, I'll be fine.
That little morning wave of hunger only lasts like a minute or two for me and is gone as soon as I drink some water. Just drink water tell don't want anymore 1st thing in the morning and you will probably be good for at leas a couple of hours. I'm usually good tell noon or later as long as I keep drinking water. Very easy for me. Everyone is different I know. Now 20:4, I do have to work at.
If 16:8 is difficult, try 14:10 if you want to try IF. It gets easier and the more you do the easier it gets and you can extend the fast as you get more used to it.
It's definitely getting easier. In fact, I'm at 20 hrs today. I just want to see how it feels as I go a bit longer.
Nice! Congrats. Try each day. Some days will be better than others. I used to use a little bit of coconut oil if I got really hungry and that helped a lot also. It didn't make me go off and eat more like eating just about any other thing would if I broke a long fast.2 -
Sabine, how long did you make it?0
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I am on 20 hours myself right now. I created a little tracker to tick off each hour to keep me focused and make a game out of how long I can go. My brain wants to scream "your hungry eat"! But I don't feel overly hungry. I think I am a little hungry but only because I think I am thinking about it. If that makes any sense? Everything I have read states that the real fat burning starts at 11-12 hours of fasting and the largest portion happens at 24-36 hours of fasting. So that is motivating me to get to 24 hours. Anyone else who IF's please continue to post.2
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I do 16:8 daily and have done one 36 hour and one 40 hour fast. Haven't noticed much difference on the scale but once I got past the mental aspect of thinking I should be hungry I did very well. I haven't done a long fast in a couple weeks now because the one thing for me is that I have a hard time sleeping on the day I do fast. I get up very early the following morning....not necessarily hungry but up at about 4 am both times. Might try again for all the health benefits I've read about.1
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OK I am so confused about the science of weight loss. I watched a Jason Fung video where he explains that SAD reduced calorie diets work at first (for like 6 months) but then slow your metabolism over time, but introducing intermittent fasting speeds your metabolism up. How many calories am I supposed to eat when I'm intermittent fasting? If I eat at maintenance when I re-feed, I can't imagine I will lose weight? So is it the intermittent fasting that keeps my calorie deficit from affecting my metabolism negatively? Or is it the fact that I am fat adapted and slowly reducing insulin resistance? Both? Is the time I'm not eating that creates the caloric deficit? What am I missing?
Also, Jason Fung suggests his patients eat only like, 50g of protein a day and that when they lose weight they don't have all the extra skin, which I thought was kind of remarkable! If I eat only 50, or even 70g of protein a day, and 20 or fewer g of carb, I'm not going to fill in with fat all the way to maintenance because I'm supposed to be getting fat off my body. So only eating fat to satiety puts me in a real calorie deficit, like, I can only manage about 1,200 or 1,300 a day. Is that too low? I'm 5'8", about 35-45 pounds overweight, I exercise with 30 minutes of circuit training 3x a week. I haven't been hungry during my fasting (16-18 hours a day, every day since May 16th), I eat regular meals when I eat.
I lost about 18 pounds so far but my weight is stalled 12 days now and so are my measurements. I feel good, not droopy or anything. Do I need to eat more to lose weight? If so, where would I add calories? Protein? If not, should I just wait this out as 12 days is too soon to worry about shifting my regimen? Mostly I'm impatient but also don't want to be harming my metabolism while I wait for the scale to budge.
Your thoughts? Science? Experiences?2 -
gettinthere wrote: »I do 16:8 daily and have done one 36 hour and one 40 hour fast. Haven't noticed much difference on the scale but once I got past the mental aspect of thinking I should be hungry I did very well. I haven't done a long fast in a couple weeks now because the one thing for me is that I have a hard time sleeping on the day I do fast. I get up very early the following morning....not necessarily hungry but up at about 4 am both times. Might try again for all the health benefits I've read about.
I have a few intrigued questions: Where you fasting to lose weight? If yes, where you in a calorie deficit when you fasted? It does not make sense that you did not lose weight if fasting and in a calorie deficit. I am truly interested because I am just starting to kick in IF.0 -
LizinLowell wrote: »OK I am so confused about the science of weight loss. I watched a Jason Fung video where he explains that SAD reduced calorie diets work at first (for like 6 months) but then slow your metabolism over time, but introducing intermittent fasting speeds your metabolism up. How many calories am I supposed to eat when I'm intermittent fasting? If I eat at maintenance when I re-feed, I can't imagine I will lose weight? So is it the intermittent fasting that keeps my calorie deficit from affecting my metabolism negatively? Or is it the fact that I am fat adapted and slowly reducing insulin resistance? Both? Is the time I'm not eating that creates the caloric deficit? What am I missing?
Also, Jason Fung suggests his patients eat only like, 50g of protein a day and that when they lose weight they don't have all the extra skin, which I thought was kind of remarkable! If I eat only 50, or even 70g of protein a day, and 20 or fewer g of carb, I'm not going to fill in with fat all the way to maintenance because I'm supposed to be getting fat off my body. So only eating fat to satiety puts me in a real calorie deficit, like, I can only manage about 1,200 or 1,300 a day. Is that too low? I'm 5'8", about 35-45 pounds overweight, I exercise with 30 minutes of circuit training 3x a week. I haven't been hungry during my fasting (16-18 hours a day, every day since May 16th), I eat regular meals when I eat.
I lost about 18 pounds so far but my weight is stalled 12 days now and so are my measurements. I feel good, not droopy or anything. Do I need to eat more to lose weight? If so, where would I add calories? Protein? If not, should I just wait this out as 12 days is too soon to worry about shifting my regimen? Mostly I'm impatient but also don't want to be harming my metabolism while I wait for the scale to budge.
Your thoughts? Science? Experiences?
Wow, alot going on in this post. I will share what I learned about IF. After 6 hours of eating your insulin levels fall. Stored Glycogen is broken down into glucose for energy. The body has stores for about 24 hours then must switch to the next source. Stored Fat. Now these times are for those on a SAD diet. For those of us on a LCHF we should already have lower levels of insulin spikes from our meals.
So thats why IF is said to work very well with those on a IF schedule, we get to the fat burning faster, we dont have as much stored glycogen. Our bodies are already efficient in burning fat for fuel.
My weight stalled too. I did a couple of things that broke through my plateau. Re-did my macros and daily calorie needs. I lost weight so my daily calories needed to come down. And I introduced the IF. Started with a couple days of 18:6 now working on a 24. Lost 3 pounds in 2 days. We will see where it goes.
I would not add more calories to lose weight, try to eat less. I certainly have enough stored fat to fuel me for awhile.1 -
@JohnnyLowCarb
I have lost over 20lbs being LCHF over the past year but when I did the two longer fasts I initially lost over night but the weight came right back on once I ate the following day. I wasn't really doing it to lose weight as the longest I went was 40 hours.1 -
LizinLowell wrote: »OK I am so confused about the science of weight loss. I watched a Jason Fung video where he explains that SAD reduced calorie diets work at first (for like 6 months) but then slow your metabolism over time, but introducing intermittent fasting speeds your metabolism up. How many calories am I supposed to eat when I'm intermittent fasting? If I eat at maintenance when I re-feed, I can't imagine I will lose weight? So is it the intermittent fasting that keeps my calorie deficit from affecting my metabolism negatively? Or is it the fact that I am fat adapted and slowly reducing insulin resistance? Both? Is the time I'm not eating that creates the caloric deficit? What am I missing?
Also, Jason Fung suggests his patients eat only like, 50g of protein a day and that when they lose weight they don't have all the extra skin, which I thought was kind of remarkable! If I eat only 50, or even 70g of protein a day, and 20 or fewer g of carb, I'm not going to fill in with fat all the way to maintenance because I'm supposed to be getting fat off my body. So only eating fat to satiety puts me in a real calorie deficit, like, I can only manage about 1,200 or 1,300 a day. Is that too low? I'm 5'8", about 35-45 pounds overweight, I exercise with 30 minutes of circuit training 3x a week. I haven't been hungry during my fasting (16-18 hours a day, every day since May 16th), I eat regular meals when I eat.
Your thoughts? Science? Experiences?
Don't forget Dr.Fung is mainly working with folks who are very ill metabolically and do have a lot of 'extra' on them. He is a nephrologist dealing with all the side effects of diabetes in his patients so this works wonders for them, some have fasted for weeks (!) and have experienced better health. It isn't a one-size-fits- all situation (as with every other WOE, lol).
Here's a 36 minute video of his that explains that you don't have to count calories when you fast. Eat when you are hungry, don't when you are not. https://youtube.com/watch?v=tIuj-oMN-Fk&list=PL1sMQuoCDt4F80WHFmt18AUCIHj8B_NMa
Minute 17 starts a bit about Kevin Hall's studies on 'burning' muscle, etc.
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@JohnnyLowCarb @canadjineh Thanks for the responses! I do believe I have pretty bad insulin resistance I am healing up from. I had a life of sugar addiction until 2003. Two of my sibilings have been diagnosed with T2D. I was gaining weight pretty slowly but steadily eating low carb as a way of life since 2003 so I switched to keto this past March. I was hoping to use IF as a way to heal my insulin resistance and get more hours of fat burning into my day, both. But I didn't want to eat at such a deficit that I slowed my metabolism. Dr Fung made it sound like that only happens to folks who calorie restrict on a SAD diet and don't fast. Just wanted to be sure I understood that correctly, that I won't slow my metabolism with a calorie deficit on a LCHF diet while using IF.1
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@canadjineh I just clicked your link & that's the video I watched before that made me more confused lol. Maybe I'll watch it again.1
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It's not the calorie restriction only that seems to be a problem, it's the constant feeding of small meals/snacks ('so you don't feel as hungry'
) that keep insulin levels up in the usual CICO model while one is restricting. Although you may have lower calories when doing OMAD or other fasting protocols, it's the non-eating period to lower insulin that is doing the work, not the amount of calories you eat when you do eat. Or so I understood from his video. Does that seem to make it clearer? Or more muddy? lol 3 -
@canadjineh Yes that detail is helpful!! I forgot that part. Thank you so much. I'll keep on with what I'm doing & try to be more patient
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retirehappy wrote: »Sabine, how long did you make it?
24 hours! Then hubs handed me a piece of cheese, then I ate an avocado, and had some dinner.
Today's 16:8 was a little more challenging, but that was to be expected.
I wanted to do 24 to see how it felt and to remind me that skipping breakfast wasn't a big deal. I didn't even do a full 24 hrs for my colonoscopy, for which I had to do a 3 day modified fast. I had sprite and jello and what not then.3 -
canadjineh wrote: »It's not the calorie restriction only that seems to be a problem, it's the constant feeding of small meals/snacks ('so you don't feel as hungry' ) that keep insulin levels up in the usual CICO model while one is restricting. Although you may have lower calories when doing OMAD or other fasting protocols, it's the non-eating period to lower insulin that is doing the work, not the amount of calories you eat when you do eat. Or so I understood from his video. Does that seem to make it clearer? Or more muddy? lol
This was one of the more important take aways from Fung's book for me. I'm one of those "never let yourself get hungry" people, and am considering a paradigm shift.1 -
I found this information useful as I begin my IF research...https://www.dietdoctor.com/intermittent-fasting/time-restricted-eating2
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@LizinLowell, I started out IFing, for a few months, then decided to try longer fasting, that is what got my scale moving. I used this calculator:
https://ketogains.com/ketogains-calculator/
I eat roughly 15% below my TDEE but I do not watch it that strictly. Some days I eat more, so way lower (no hunger at all) I try to keep an average for the week.
I listened to podcasts by Megan Ramos on Fasting Talk and 2ketodudes, along with some other folks, Fasting Talk has good stuff with Jason Fung.
I eat slightly more fat on the day before I start an extended (3+ days) fast. I start fasting at night, so when I get up in 4th day I can just go back to IFing. To break the fast I eat a small amount of fat, 5 or so olives with about an oz. of hard cheese, not soft. About half hr. later I start eating as I do normally. I have reached my first goal weight and I have decided to lose a bit more if I can, so I am still following the pattern stated above.
I do go by my hunger signals now, so if I am really hungry, I just eat till I am satisfied, which so far has not exceeded my TDEE. I do use a Fitbit and eat back some of those calories some days but not all.
2ketodudes have some good info on fasting/science/etc. at
www.ketogenicforums.com
that might answer more of your questions.2 -
@retirehappy Thanks for sharing your experiences & for the resources! Off to click the links. Also thanks to @food_lover16 Thought I read everything on that site but I'm not sure I saw all of that yet, will check it out.1
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JohnnyLowCarb wrote: »LizinLowell wrote: »OK I am so confused about the science of weight loss. I watched a Jason Fung video where he explains that SAD reduced calorie diets work at first (for like 6 months) but then slow your metabolism over time, but introducing intermittent fasting speeds your metabolism up. How many calories am I supposed to eat when I'm intermittent fasting? If I eat at maintenance when I re-feed, I can't imagine I will lose weight? So is it the intermittent fasting that keeps my calorie deficit from affecting my metabolism negatively? Or is it the fact that I am fat adapted and slowly reducing insulin resistance? Both? Is the time I'm not eating that creates the caloric deficit? What am I missing?
Also, Jason Fung suggests his patients eat only like, 50g of protein a day and that when they lose weight they don't have all the extra skin, which I thought was kind of remarkable! If I eat only 50, or even 70g of protein a day, and 20 or fewer g of carb, I'm not going to fill in with fat all the way to maintenance because I'm supposed to be getting fat off my body. So only eating fat to satiety puts me in a real calorie deficit, like, I can only manage about 1,200 or 1,300 a day. Is that too low? I'm 5'8", about 35-45 pounds overweight, I exercise with 30 minutes of circuit training 3x a week. I haven't been hungry during my fasting (16-18 hours a day, every day since May 16th), I eat regular meals when I eat.
I lost about 18 pounds so far but my weight is stalled 12 days now and so are my measurements. I feel good, not droopy or anything. Do I need to eat more to lose weight? If so, where would I add calories? Protein? If not, should I just wait this out as 12 days is too soon to worry about shifting my regimen? Mostly I'm impatient but also don't want to be harming my metabolism while I wait for the scale to budge.
Your thoughts? Science? Experiences?
Wow, alot going on in this post. I will share what I learned about IF. After 6 hours of eating your insulin levels fall. Stored Glycogen is broken down into glucose for energy. The body has stores for about 24 hours then must switch to the next source. Stored Fat. Now these times are for those on a SAD diet. For those of us on a LCHF we should already have lower levels of insulin spikes from our meals.
So thats why IF is said to work very well with those on a IF schedule, we get to the fat burning faster, we dont have as much stored glycogen. Our bodies are already efficient in burning fat for fuel.
My weight stalled too. I did a couple of things that broke through my plateau. Re-did my macros and daily calorie needs. I lost weight so my daily calories needed to come down. And I introduced the IF. Started with a couple days of 18:6 now working on a 24. Lost 3 pounds in 2 days. We will see where it goes.
I would not add more calories to lose weight, try to eat less. I certainly have enough stored fat to fuel me for awhile.
I think that a lot of glycogen is gone after about 14-16 hrs. Those are the numbers I've read and that is how I feel also when doing IF.1
This discussion has been closed.