Some thoughts on 5/3/1 and how I might set it up
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SideSteel
Posts: 11,068 Member
Any time you look at a program at least as far as main lifts go, I find it useful to look at it as an arrangement of intensity, frequency and volume.
When you look at 5/3/1 you can see that it's a program using weekly undulating periodization (the main lifts undulate in rep range from week to week) and the load progresses in a linear fashion in terms of change in %RM from week to week.
The loading percentages are rather high (a good portion of the work is above 85%RM) and the volume is rather low when you compare it across a variety of programs and so I'd generally classify the main lifts as being more "strength focused" but this isn't necessarily a bad idea even if the goal is hypertrophy.
It's not how I'd prefer to program for most people (I prefer an undulation that uses more moderate rep ranges generally speaking) however it's also not a bad program, there's just some tweaks I'd use as follows to a) reach higher training frequency by moving the main assist movement and b) provide weekly undulation of the main assistance movement previously mentioned.
I can't share spreadsheets in the forums so I'll just list out what I mean to the best of my ability here and this would essentially be a variation of boring but big with my own twist to it. This would be for someone training 4 days per week with the main goals of building strength in the main lifts, training them twice per week for some additional frequency, and with a focus on hypertrophy.
Day 1 Squat Main
Week 1
Squat 5/5/5
Deadlift 3x8 @ 65%
Week 2
Squat 3/3/3
Deadlift 4x6 @ 70%
Week 3
Squat 5/3/1
Deadlift 3x4 @ 75%
Day 2 Bench Main
Week 1
Bench 5/5/5
OHP 4x12@60%
Week 2
Bench 3/3/3
OHP 4x10@65%
Week 3
Bench 5/3/1
OHP 4x8@70%
Day 3 Deads Main
Week 1
Deadlift 5/5/5
Squat 4x10@60%
Week 2
Deadlift 3/3/3
Squat 4x8@65%
Week 3
Deadlift 5/3/1
Squat 4x6@70%
Day 4 OHP Main
Week 1
OHP 5/5/5
Bench 4x12@60%
Week 2
OHP 3/3/3
Bench 4x10@65%
Week 3
OHP 5/3/1
Bench 4x8@70%
For accessory movements there's plenty of ways to do it but I'd generally select somewhere between 2 and 4 accessory movements daily, in addition to the 2 lifts above.
For single joint, smaller muscle groups I tend to favor higher rep ranges with a reverse linear periodization. Basically add repetitions FIRST and once you hit a rep ceiling add weight. For some movements like a cable lateral raise I don't think it's a bad idea to go quite high before making a load increase.
For compound movements that are not main assist movements like a DB Row I like the following progression model:
Week 1 3x12
Week 2 3x10 (load increase)
Week 3 3x8 (load increase)
Week 4 (deload) 3x8 using Week 1 loads
Then you repeat on week 5 using Week 2 loads or you could add 1 rep to each of the above and repeat.
This isn't very well formatted and this will probably only be of use to people who already know 5/3/1, since I didn't really explain the actual program -- this is just a decent way to set things up, IMO.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6t63TSpf1SAVDBPak9oVVcxaGs
When you look at 5/3/1 you can see that it's a program using weekly undulating periodization (the main lifts undulate in rep range from week to week) and the load progresses in a linear fashion in terms of change in %RM from week to week.
The loading percentages are rather high (a good portion of the work is above 85%RM) and the volume is rather low when you compare it across a variety of programs and so I'd generally classify the main lifts as being more "strength focused" but this isn't necessarily a bad idea even if the goal is hypertrophy.
It's not how I'd prefer to program for most people (I prefer an undulation that uses more moderate rep ranges generally speaking) however it's also not a bad program, there's just some tweaks I'd use as follows to a) reach higher training frequency by moving the main assist movement and b) provide weekly undulation of the main assistance movement previously mentioned.
I can't share spreadsheets in the forums so I'll just list out what I mean to the best of my ability here and this would essentially be a variation of boring but big with my own twist to it. This would be for someone training 4 days per week with the main goals of building strength in the main lifts, training them twice per week for some additional frequency, and with a focus on hypertrophy.
Day 1 Squat Main
Week 1
Squat 5/5/5
Deadlift 3x8 @ 65%
Week 2
Squat 3/3/3
Deadlift 4x6 @ 70%
Week 3
Squat 5/3/1
Deadlift 3x4 @ 75%
Day 2 Bench Main
Week 1
Bench 5/5/5
OHP 4x12@60%
Week 2
Bench 3/3/3
OHP 4x10@65%
Week 3
Bench 5/3/1
OHP 4x8@70%
Day 3 Deads Main
Week 1
Deadlift 5/5/5
Squat 4x10@60%
Week 2
Deadlift 3/3/3
Squat 4x8@65%
Week 3
Deadlift 5/3/1
Squat 4x6@70%
Day 4 OHP Main
Week 1
OHP 5/5/5
Bench 4x12@60%
Week 2
OHP 3/3/3
Bench 4x10@65%
Week 3
OHP 5/3/1
Bench 4x8@70%
For accessory movements there's plenty of ways to do it but I'd generally select somewhere between 2 and 4 accessory movements daily, in addition to the 2 lifts above.
For single joint, smaller muscle groups I tend to favor higher rep ranges with a reverse linear periodization. Basically add repetitions FIRST and once you hit a rep ceiling add weight. For some movements like a cable lateral raise I don't think it's a bad idea to go quite high before making a load increase.
For compound movements that are not main assist movements like a DB Row I like the following progression model:
Week 1 3x12
Week 2 3x10 (load increase)
Week 3 3x8 (load increase)
Week 4 (deload) 3x8 using Week 1 loads
Then you repeat on week 5 using Week 2 loads or you could add 1 rep to each of the above and repeat.
This isn't very well formatted and this will probably only be of use to people who already know 5/3/1, since I didn't really explain the actual program -- this is just a decent way to set things up, IMO.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6t63TSpf1SAVDBPak9oVVcxaGs
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Replies
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I'll also note the percentages are estimates on the main assist work. They start out a bit on the easy side and if things are too easy the first cycle I would make an additional 3-5% increase the second block, but I'd only do that if the last set ends up RPE 7 or lower on the final set. If you reach an RPE 8-9 on the last set you're in a good spot.0
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Theoretically, how little could you get away with and still make gains? As in, could you do nothing but the primary lift & main assist move each day and not do any other assistance work due to time constraints? Or would I be short-changing myself too much? (I have time before work for 20-30 minutes each morning to workout.)0
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How many days per week can you do this?0
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That's pretty good, I might try this on my next bulk. Typically I do the same with the "opposite" accessories (squat accessory on deadlift day etc) but I just do straight 5x10 or 5x5 for the back-off sets (oftentimes both). I think I like yours more.
Oh btw, use Google sheets if you want to share a spreadsheet.1 -
Keep in mind, 5/3/1 isn't supposed to be programmed off of your true 1RM. It uses a TM (training max) that's defined as 90% of your real or best estimated 1RM.
For example, my current true 1RM on deads is 405. My current 1+rep for the final day of a cycle would therefore be 350, or roughly 85% of my true 1RM (rounding errors obviously). That's the heaviest I'd see on a 405 cycle, and I pulled it for two this morning before the grip in my bad hand screwed me out of a third rep just before lockout.
So really, you only have one set all week that hits 85%. 5/3/1 lifts generally end up being more about pulling sub-max rep PRs on final sets to build strength. It's an interesting approach, because most of the best powerlifters will tell you that they NEVER max in the gym. "Save that *kitten* for the platform" and all of that.2 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Keep in mind, 5/3/1 isn't supposed to be programmed off of your true 1RM. It uses a TM (training max) that's defined as 90% of your real or best estimated 1RM.
For example, my current true 1RM on deads is 405. My current 1+rep for the final day of a cycle would therefore be 350, or roughly 85% of my true 1RM (rounding errors obviously). That's the heaviest I'd see on a 405 cycle, and I pulled it for two this morning before the grip in my bad hand screwed me out of a third rep just before lockout.
So really, you only have one set all week that hits 85%. 5/3/1 lifts generally end up being more about pulling sub-max rep PRs on final sets to build strength. It's an interesting approach, because most of the best powerlifters will tell you that they NEVER max in the gym. "Save that *kitten* for the platform" and all of that.
You're correct at the start of the program however after a few cycles I find that the gap is quickly closed between the calculated and actual 1rms.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Keep in mind, 5/3/1 isn't supposed to be programmed off of your true 1RM. It uses a TM (training max) that's defined as 90% of your real or best estimated 1RM.
For example, my current true 1RM on deads is 405. My current 1+rep for the final day of a cycle would therefore be 350, or roughly 85% of my true 1RM (rounding errors obviously). That's the heaviest I'd see on a 405 cycle, and I pulled it for two this morning before the grip in my bad hand screwed me out of a third rep just before lockout.
So really, you only have one set all week that hits 85%. 5/3/1 lifts generally end up being more about pulling sub-max rep PRs on final sets to build strength. It's an interesting approach, because most of the best powerlifters will tell you that they NEVER max in the gym. "Save that *kitten* for the platform" and all of that.
You're correct at the start of the program however after a few cycles I find that the gap is quickly closed between the calculated and actual 1rms.
That is very true, which is why every time you have to reset, you're supposed to recalc and go to the new 90% TM. Those 5 and ten pound additions per cycle to the TM can catch up fairly quickly, especially when using a 7th week deload instead of 4th.0 -
This was super helpful, thanks.
I might run this version starting in the new year. Although I will do as Wendler now recommends and do 2 rotations back to back (increasing TM after 3 weeks) before the deload.0 -
@nossmf
What are your priorities? Hypertrophy? 1rm strength in a particular lift?
You'll likely be looking at something where you've got days where you just do 1 main lift and/or days where you're supersetting multiple accessories or doing something like myo-reps to attempt to maximize efficiency.
Monday:
Bench + pull accessories (can superset)
Tuesday
Squat
Wednesday
RDL +push accessories (deadlift instead of rdl if you're focused on DL strength more than hypertrophy)
Thursday
Squat
Friday
Bench + shoulder/rear delt accessories
I probably wouldn't superset the bench on Friday but once the bench is done you could superset the accessories. Face pulls and lateral raises or something to that effect.
Room to play around with the accessories but since time is limited I would pair them off in supersets for efficiency purposes and you'd have to figure out how to best match those up to your goals.
I'm making the assumption that you won't have time on squat day to add in additional accessory work but if you do, great.
I'll admit that this is sort of "napkin programming". This is just one way to set it up so that you maintain 2/frequency on squat+bench and 1 pull session per week on limited time.
EDIT: You could swap the RDL accessories for pull accessories or whatever --- I'd take a look at goals and overall volume per bodypart to assess that. I listed push accessories rather randomly.0 -
Good stuff. Bookmarking for when I can lift heavy again. I've tried a bunch of different programs, but I always go back to 5/3/1. It's my fave.1
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SideSteel, thanks for taking the time to answer more thoroughly than I have a right to expect. I was looking for just a "yes, do it" or "find more time somehow" answer, not an actual thought-out response! lol
My primary goals are hypertrophy upper body (my legs are already as big my as my jeans will allow) and current-strength maintenance, with injury prevention for my shoulders a close second and 1RM a distant third.
One quick thought which springs out at me: I've read the ideal is to try to have even work on push and pull to avoid imbalances. Currently, my bench is considerably stronger than my row. Should I be cutting back on push weights until my back strength becomes comparable? Or are we talking total sets/reps being equal, not necessarily weights involved?0 -
I would go with more pull accessories and less push accessories then.
I wouldn't go lighter on bench necessarily.
Do pull accessories on deadlift day instead of push accessories1 -
That's pretty good, I might try this on my next bulk. Typically I do the same with the "opposite" accessories (squat accessory on deadlift day etc) but I just do straight 5x10 or 5x5 for the back-off sets (oftentimes both). I think I like yours more.
Oh btw, use Google sheets if you want to share a spreadsheet.
That is a good point. Patrick and I were going back and forth on seeing if there was an ability to embed/attached a spreadsheet on Vanilla (MFP forum platform). Unfortunately, MFP hasn't enabled such a tool
@SideSteel if you want I modify my spreadsheet to your program format for hosting if you want? It's fairly automated currently; currently, automatically calculates weekly/cycle targets for the primary lifts and looks at weekly volume and cycle comparions (% changes over cycles (1 cycle = 4 weeks)). Still need to add visualization tools, like volume progression but I should have time with the xmas holiday.
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Theoretically, how little could you get away with and still make gains? As in, could you do nothing but the primary lift & main assist move each day and not do any other assistance work due to time constraints? Or would I be short-changing myself too much? (I have time before work for 20-30 minutes each morning to workout.)
As an FYI, generally, I was able to do the original program in about 30 minutes (1 primary lift, + 2 accessory lifts, found here). But I never waited the 2 minutes between sets.. way too much time IMO, lol. Arm days I was doing 45-60 seconds, and 60-75 sec for legs.0 -
That's pretty good, I might try this on my next bulk. Typically I do the same with the "opposite" accessories (squat accessory on deadlift day etc) but I just do straight 5x10 or 5x5 for the back-off sets (oftentimes both). I think I like yours more.
Oh btw, use Google sheets if you want to share a spreadsheet.
That is a good point. Patrick and I were going back and forth on seeing if there was an ability to embed/attached a spreadsheet on Vanilla (MFP forum platform). Unfortunately, MFP hasn't enabled such a tool
@SideSteel if you want I modify my spreadsheet to your program format for hosting if you want? It's fairly automated currently; currently, automatically calculates weekly/cycle targets for the primary lifts and looks at weekly volume and cycle comparions (% changes over cycles (1 cycle = 4 weeks)). Still need to add visualization tools, like volume progression but I should have time with the xmas holiday.
First of all sorry I haven't replied to your email. Been a bit busy but I'll try to this week.
As for the spreadsheet, feel free if this is something you don't mind doing and you think it could benefit others. I'm AWFUL with excel and when I need to make things look nicer or have added function I usually have a couple of my clients take care of it in exchange for services but I'm completely incompetent myself with it.0 -
That's pretty good, I might try this on my next bulk. Typically I do the same with the "opposite" accessories (squat accessory on deadlift day etc) but I just do straight 5x10 or 5x5 for the back-off sets (oftentimes both). I think I like yours more.
Oh btw, use Google sheets if you want to share a spreadsheet.
That is a good point. Patrick and I were going back and forth on seeing if there was an ability to embed/attached a spreadsheet on Vanilla (MFP forum platform). Unfortunately, MFP hasn't enabled such a tool
@SideSteel if you want I modify my spreadsheet to your program format for hosting if you want? It's fairly automated currently; currently, automatically calculates weekly/cycle targets for the primary lifts and looks at weekly volume and cycle comparions (% changes over cycles (1 cycle = 4 weeks)). Still need to add visualization tools, like volume progression but I should have time with the xmas holiday.
First of all sorry I haven't replied to your email. Been a bit busy but I'll try to this week.
As for the spreadsheet, feel free if this is something you don't mind doing and you think it could benefit others. I'm AWFUL with excel and when I need to make things look nicer or have added function I usually have a couple of my clients take care of it in exchange for services but I'm completely incompetent myself with it.
I haven't noticed, lol.
I will pull something together and send you an update.0 -
Lmao ty0
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Bump. Draft program sent. If SideSteel likes it, then we can get it hosted. Hope everyone had a great Christmas.1
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Sidesteel - What % would you apply to the accessories on a deload week, as per your opening post?0
