Some thoughts on 5/3/1 and how I might set it up
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Per Wendler, Week 4 has the primary lifts 3 sets of 5 at 40%, 50% and 60%. Maybe that would be a good ratio for the primary assist as well?0
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samhennings wrote: »Sidesteel - What % would you apply to the accessories on a deload week, as per your opening post?
Great question. I'd be inclined to deload more aggressively if someone is deloading every 7th week instead of every 4th week.
But I think an appropriate recommendation would be to take main lift down in volume and intensity slightly, something like this would probably be about right as an example.
Deload week
Deadlift 3/3/3 @ 50/60/70
Squat 2-3 x 8 @ 55-60%
I would probable handle tertiary accessory work (isolation stuff/non main lift stuff) on a case by case basis. If the individual can tolerate that training volume remaining in the program I'd keep it in per normal on the deload week. If necessary, maybe chop out 1 set per exercise.
If deloading every 7th week I'd probably take a bit more away for additional recovery.2 -
Thanks!
Ive been kind of doing my own thing for a while, upon reading this post Im going to give the program a go from Monday. Looks interesting to me, so Im trying to plan out my 4th week deload already!
I figure Ill give it a cycle, see how it feels, and go from there. Will likely continue, but need to see how the deload feels, and if Id prefer a 7th week one instead.
So my first thoughts for that deload week are something like
OHP - 3 x 8 @ 60%
Bench Press - 3 x 8 @ 60%
Deadlift - 3 x 3 @ 50%/60%/70%
Squat - 3 x 8 @ 60%
Does that seem reasonable?
Isolation work I tend to vary and play by ear, depending on how Im feeling or what I think I need.
Thanks again.
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samhennings wrote: »Thanks!
Ive been kind of doing my own thing for a while, upon reading this post Im going to give the program a go from Monday. Looks interesting to me, so Im trying to plan out my 4th week deload already!
I figure Ill give it a cycle, see how it feels, and go from there. Will likely continue, but need to see how the deload feels, and if Id prefer a 7th week one instead.
So my first thoughts for that deload week are something like
OHP - 3 x 8 @ 60%
Bench Press - 3 x 8 @ 60%
Deadlift - 3 x 3 @ 50%/60%/70%
Squat - 3 x 8 @ 60%
Does that seem reasonable?
Isolation work I tend to vary and play by ear, depending on how Im feeling or what I think I need.
Thanks again.
I think that's going to be close however I think erring on the side of doing slightly too little vs too much on a deload phase is generally smart and so if you're only deloading every 7th week, we could argue that you'll have more cumulative fatigue to dump, and therefore a more aggressive deload might be justified.
I would probably start at 2x8 and see how it goes.
This also assumes that 2x8@60% is easy for you. I would expect this to leave you with several reps in the tank, but it depends how beat up you are.
Ultimately, keep in mind that the purpose of a deload is to drop fatigue while maintaining as much fitness as possible.
As long as you keep that in mind and adjust as needed I think you'll be fine.
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Awesome, thanks.
I did Stronglifts for a while, but found it became a real grind.
Since when Ive basically been doing a Wendler type set up (as in, those exercises on those days) and just putting the weight up as and when I feel good.
I like the idea of getting structured again, and the undulating pattern suits me I think, should keep it interesting rather than just a grind.
Your time is really appreciated0 -
Just for what it is worth, I think it is common for people to stay on a 5 x 5 a bit too long and they end up feeling like it is a constant grind because pretty much every session is taken to failure or very very close to it.
And so fatigue gets way too high and this causes progress to stall.
@psuLemon designed a spreadsheet with this program and I think he's going to be uploading it soon.
A few things to keep in mind when running 5/3/1:
When you plug in your numbers Jim suggests taking 90% of your true one rep max when you run the calculations and I agree with this and think it's an important step.
Doing a deload every seventh week is fine but do not skip this because it is important for long-term progress.
Finally, the final set in 5/3/1 on your main lift can be done as AMRAP or "as many reps as possible" and I think it's a good idea especially if you are setting the program up correctly and taking 90% of your one rep max for the calculations as mentioned previously.
I used voice text for this message so apologies if there are grammatical errors1 -
It reads just fine!
Ive been reading plenty on it since yesterday and you reiterate all the "how people usually get it wrong" warnings.
I think there is a suck it and see element, so Ill do a cycle and reevaluate from there. Seems to me that getting your 90% 1Rep Max right is key to the whole thing.
Though, with a spreadsheet, very easy to manipulate if necessary0 -
Just for what it is worth, I think it is common for people to stay on a 5 x 5 a bit too long and they end up feeling like it is a constant grind because pretty much every session is taken to failure or very very close to it.
And so fatigue gets way too high and this causes progress to stall.
@psuLemon designed a spreadsheet with this program and I think he's going to be uploading it soon.
A few things to keep in mind when running 5/3/1:
When you plug in your numbers Jim suggests taking 90% of your true one rep max when you run the calculations and I agree with this and think it's an important step.
Doing a deload every seventh week is fine but do not skip this because it is important for long-term progress.
Finally, the final set in 5/3/1 on your main lift can be done as AMRAP or "as many reps as possible" and I think it's a good idea especially if you are setting the program up correctly and taking 90% of your one rep max for the calculations as mentioned previously.
I used voice text for this message so apologies if there are grammatical errors
As promised, attached is a copy of the ETP version of Wendler 5,3,1. I have added some instructions and will make updates as necessary. If anyone has any questions, please let me know.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6t63TSpf1SAVDBPak9oVVcxaGs/view
ETA: I have it set up to only share with those with the link, so please feel free to share the link.3 -
@psuLemon a couple quick thoughts from looking at the spreadsheet:
1. If you're hoping for full completeness, ever think about including a ramp-up for warm up sets? 5x50% of first work set, 3x70%, 1x90%, etc?
2. Going from one 7-week cycle to the next, the primary accessory lift increases, but the primary lift itself does not.
3. Along with #2 above, how often are we supposed to reevaluate our 1RM? Every cycle, every few months...?0 -
@psuLemon a couple quick thoughts from looking at the spreadsheet:
1. If you're hoping for full completeness, ever think about including a ramp-up for warm up sets? 5x50% of first work set, 3x70%, 1x90%, etc?
2. Going from one 7-week cycle to the next, the primary accessory lift increases, but the primary lift itself does not.
3. Along with #2 above, how often are we supposed to reevaluate our 1RM? Every cycle, every few months...?
Typically every cycle you make an addition to the number that you use to calculate your training loads
5 pounds for presses and 10 for squat and dead1 -
@psuLemon a couple quick thoughts from looking at the spreadsheet:
1. If you're hoping for full completeness, ever think about including a ramp-up for warm up sets? 5x50% of first work set, 3x70%, 1x90%, etc?
2. Going from one 7-week cycle to the next, the primary accessory lift increases, but the primary lift itself does not.
3. Along with #2 above, how often are we supposed to reevaluate our 1RM? Every cycle, every few months...?
1. I could definitely include warm up sets. Once I get home, I can look at add that.
2. Primary lifts should increase from 1 cycle to the next. 10 lbs is added to the 1RM for lower body and 5lbs for upper body. From there it still calculates based on 90% of 1RM.
ETA: I just made a small update. My increases where flipped, so if you click on the link, it will provide an updated copy1 -
I believe see a couple of issues with the spreadsheet, unless @SideSteel specifically programs it this way.
The "cycles" don't seem to be correct. Weeks 1-3 should be one cycle, with Weeks 4-6 being the second cycle. And Week 7 is just the deload. The training maxes should increase on Week 4.
Also, like @nossmf mentioned, it might be helpful to show what the warmup weights actually are - not just say to do 40%, 50%, and 60%.
eta: I see in pp that the warmups will be addressed.0 -
I believe see a couple of issues with the spreadsheet, unless @SideSteel specifically programs it this way.
The "cycles" don't seem to be correct. Weeks 1-3 should be one cycle, with Weeks 4-6 being the second cycle. And Week 7 is just the deload. The training maxes should increase on Week 4.
Also, like @nossmf mentioned, it might be helpful to show what the warmup weights actually are - not just say to do 40%, 50%, and 60%.
SideSteel and I discussed and decided a 7 week cycle would allow for accurate recovery. I believe there was some discussion in the Q&A; it was noted that wendler agree with such an approach as part of his updated release of his book, according to a few members.
I am traveling the next few days, but if I can figure out the warm up scheme, the I can add it and make a v1.1. The way the warm up is done in Bigger, Leaner, Stronger, is 50% of 1RM for 1 set of 12 reps, 1 set of 10 reps and then 90% of 1RM for 1 rep.1 -
I believe see a couple of issues with the spreadsheet, unless @SideSteel specifically programs it this way.
The "cycles" don't seem to be correct. Weeks 1-3 should be one cycle, with Weeks 4-6 being the second cycle. And Week 7 is just the deload. The training maxes should increase on Week 4.
Also, like @nossmf mentioned, it might be helpful to show what the warmup weights actually are - not just say to do 40%, 50%, and 60%.
eta: I see in pp that the warmups will be addressed.
Correct regarding the increase on week 4.
@psuLemon my fault for not communicating this effectively, I misunderstood you when we were discussing this. If someone runs it for 7 weeks it should still have an increase at week 4 in my opinion. So basically it's just like running it in the traditional sense only you're skipping 1 deload and still making the load increase at week 4 like TR0berts says above.1 -
I believe see a couple of issues with the spreadsheet, unless @SideSteel specifically programs it this way.
The "cycles" don't seem to be correct. Weeks 1-3 should be one cycle, with Weeks 4-6 being the second cycle. And Week 7 is just the deload. The training maxes should increase on Week 4.
Also, like @nossmf mentioned, it might be helpful to show what the warmup weights actually are - not just say to do 40%, 50%, and 60%.
eta: I see in pp that the warmups will be addressed.
Correct regarding the increase on week 4.
@psuLemon my fault for not communicating this effectively, I misunderstood you when we were discussing this. If someone runs it for 7 weeks it should still have an increase at week 4 in my opinion. So basically it's just like running it in the traditional sense only you're skipping 1 deload and still making the load increase at week 4 like TR0berts says above.
Ok. I will make the update.0 -
Link has been updated. Didn't add the warm-up just yet. But the increases should be in line with this discussion.1
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Typically every cycle you make an addition to the number that you use to calculate your training loads
5 pounds for presses and 10 for squat and dead
Is that added to your 1RM, then the training max takes 90% (so effectively adding 4.5#/9#), or adding directly to the training max itself?0 -
Typically every cycle you make an addition to the number that you use to calculate your training loads
5 pounds for presses and 10 for squat and dead
Is that added to your 1RM, then the training max takes 90% (so effectively adding 4.5#/9#), or adding directly to the training max itself?
The original program was designed to add 5 or 10 to your 1RM after each cycle.0 -
Ok, I've looked at the current version. Week 4 increases over week 1, great. But you get to week 1 of cycle 2 and you're using the exact same weights as week 1 of cycle 1. Oops.
Another difference I've noted is the %'s used differ from the Wendler link provided earlier in this thread. Specifically, Wendler said for week 1 to use 65-75-85, where this spreadsheet uses 65-70-75.0 -
And how often should we re-test our 1RM to plug into this system? Every 3 months? Every 6? Annually? (Every cycle seems a bit too frequent.)0
