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Some thoughts on 5/3/1 and how I might set it up
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@psuLemon a couple quick thoughts from looking at the spreadsheet:
1. If you're hoping for full completeness, ever think about including a ramp-up for warm up sets? 5x50% of first work set, 3x70%, 1x90%, etc?
2. Going from one 7-week cycle to the next, the primary accessory lift increases, but the primary lift itself does not.
3. Along with #2 above, how often are we supposed to reevaluate our 1RM? Every cycle, every few months...?
1. I could definitely include warm up sets. Once I get home, I can look at add that.
2. Primary lifts should increase from 1 cycle to the next. 10 lbs is added to the 1RM for lower body and 5lbs for upper body. From there it still calculates based on 90% of 1RM.
ETA: I just made a small update. My increases where flipped, so if you click on the link, it will provide an updated copy1 -
I believe see a couple of issues with the spreadsheet, unless @SideSteel specifically programs it this way.
The "cycles" don't seem to be correct. Weeks 1-3 should be one cycle, with Weeks 4-6 being the second cycle. And Week 7 is just the deload. The training maxes should increase on Week 4.
Also, like @nossmf mentioned, it might be helpful to show what the warmup weights actually are - not just say to do 40%, 50%, and 60%.
eta: I see in pp that the warmups will be addressed.0 -
I believe see a couple of issues with the spreadsheet, unless @SideSteel specifically programs it this way.
The "cycles" don't seem to be correct. Weeks 1-3 should be one cycle, with Weeks 4-6 being the second cycle. And Week 7 is just the deload. The training maxes should increase on Week 4.
Also, like @nossmf mentioned, it might be helpful to show what the warmup weights actually are - not just say to do 40%, 50%, and 60%.
SideSteel and I discussed and decided a 7 week cycle would allow for accurate recovery. I believe there was some discussion in the Q&A; it was noted that wendler agree with such an approach as part of his updated release of his book, according to a few members.
I am traveling the next few days, but if I can figure out the warm up scheme, the I can add it and make a v1.1. The way the warm up is done in Bigger, Leaner, Stronger, is 50% of 1RM for 1 set of 12 reps, 1 set of 10 reps and then 90% of 1RM for 1 rep.1 -
I believe see a couple of issues with the spreadsheet, unless @SideSteel specifically programs it this way.
The "cycles" don't seem to be correct. Weeks 1-3 should be one cycle, with Weeks 4-6 being the second cycle. And Week 7 is just the deload. The training maxes should increase on Week 4.
Also, like @nossmf mentioned, it might be helpful to show what the warmup weights actually are - not just say to do 40%, 50%, and 60%.
eta: I see in pp that the warmups will be addressed.
Correct regarding the increase on week 4.
@psuLemon my fault for not communicating this effectively, I misunderstood you when we were discussing this. If someone runs it for 7 weeks it should still have an increase at week 4 in my opinion. So basically it's just like running it in the traditional sense only you're skipping 1 deload and still making the load increase at week 4 like TR0berts says above.1 -
I believe see a couple of issues with the spreadsheet, unless @SideSteel specifically programs it this way.
The "cycles" don't seem to be correct. Weeks 1-3 should be one cycle, with Weeks 4-6 being the second cycle. And Week 7 is just the deload. The training maxes should increase on Week 4.
Also, like @nossmf mentioned, it might be helpful to show what the warmup weights actually are - not just say to do 40%, 50%, and 60%.
eta: I see in pp that the warmups will be addressed.
Correct regarding the increase on week 4.
@psuLemon my fault for not communicating this effectively, I misunderstood you when we were discussing this. If someone runs it for 7 weeks it should still have an increase at week 4 in my opinion. So basically it's just like running it in the traditional sense only you're skipping 1 deload and still making the load increase at week 4 like TR0berts says above.
Ok. I will make the update.0 -
Link has been updated. Didn't add the warm-up just yet. But the increases should be in line with this discussion.1
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Typically every cycle you make an addition to the number that you use to calculate your training loads
5 pounds for presses and 10 for squat and dead
Is that added to your 1RM, then the training max takes 90% (so effectively adding 4.5#/9#), or adding directly to the training max itself?0 -
Typically every cycle you make an addition to the number that you use to calculate your training loads
5 pounds for presses and 10 for squat and dead
Is that added to your 1RM, then the training max takes 90% (so effectively adding 4.5#/9#), or adding directly to the training max itself?
The original program was designed to add 5 or 10 to your 1RM after each cycle.0 -
Ok, I've looked at the current version. Week 4 increases over week 1, great. But you get to week 1 of cycle 2 and you're using the exact same weights as week 1 of cycle 1. Oops.
Another difference I've noted is the %'s used differ from the Wendler link provided earlier in this thread. Specifically, Wendler said for week 1 to use 65-75-85, where this spreadsheet uses 65-70-75.0 -
And how often should we re-test our 1RM to plug into this system? Every 3 months? Every 6? Annually? (Every cycle seems a bit too frequent.)0
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And how often should we re-test our 1RM to plug into this system? Every 3 months? Every 6? Annually? (Every cycle seems a bit too frequent.)
I havent read his book but i dont think you need to retest 1RM.
I will take a look at the spreadsheet when i get home tomorrow to see if there is any other errors.
Eta: holy crap my reading comprehension is terrible. And sorry for the quality control. This is what i get for doing this over xmas break while travelling.0 -
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6t63TSpf1SAVDBPak9oVVcxaGs/view
Updated the % and corrected a few formulas. @SideSteel is doing some research on the warm up routine.1 -
And how often should we re-test our 1RM to plug into this system? Every 3 months? Every 6? Annually? (Every cycle seems a bit too frequent.)
The way the program is written, essentially never. Unless you're going to compete - in which case, at the competition. Or, unless you fail on a cycle. But, then you aren't necessarily "testing" your 1RM - you either now know it, or calculate it off of what you did when you failed.
This is one of the times where reading the book(s) will probably be very beneficial.0 -
Typically every cycle you make an addition to the number that you use to calculate your training loads
5 pounds for presses and 10 for squat and dead
Is that added to your 1RM, then the training max takes 90% (so effectively adding 4.5#/9#), or adding directly to the training max itself?
The original program was designed to add 5 or 10 to your 1RM after each cycle.
It's not added to your 1RM - the 5 or 10 lb is added to your TM (training max).0 -
^ Yup to both of those replies. No need to test although if you WANT to I'd limit it to no more than every ~10 weeks or so give or take. I'd also do some sort of mini taper before testing too.0
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Typically every cycle you make an addition to the number that you use to calculate your training loads
5 pounds for presses and 10 for squat and dead
Is that added to your 1RM, then the training max takes 90% (so effectively adding 4.5#/9#), or adding directly to the training max itself?
The original program was designed to add 5 or 10 to your 1RM after each cycle.
It's not added to your 1RM - the 5 or 10 lb is added to your TM (training max).
The way I read it, it was adding to your 1RM, but I updated the file to add more your 90% of your 1RM. File updated. Hopefully, this one is good.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6t63TSpf1SAVDBPak9oVVcxaGs/view3 -
Just for what it is worth, I think it is common for people to stay on a 5 x 5 a bit too long and they end up feeling like it is a constant grind because pretty much every session is taken to failure or very very close to it.
And so fatigue gets way too high and this causes progress to stall.
@psuLemon designed a spreadsheet with this program and I think he's going to be uploading it soon.
A few things to keep in mind when running 5/3/1:
When you plug in your numbers Jim suggests taking 90% of your true one rep max when you run the calculations and I agree with this and think it's an important step.
Doing a deload every seventh week is fine but do not skip this because it is important for long-term progress.
Finally, the final set in 5/3/1 on your main lift can be done as AMRAP or "as many reps as possible" and I think it's a good idea especially if you are setting the program up correctly and taking 90% of your one rep max for the calculations as mentioned previously.
I used voice text for this message so apologies if there are grammatical errors
Quick update.
Ive recently introduced a friend to the gym, and have been showing him the main lifts.
Was in with him yesterday, so didnt do 5/3/1. I did, however, do a fair volume of work with the main 5 lifts and so took it as a day 1 proxy.
Went in for day 2 today, and it kicked my *kitten* completely.
The bench was fine, last set went to 10 reps so I was quite happy with that. Then the OHP accessory just destroyed me. Ended up with something like 9,8,9,9 reps.
Shoulders and arms are hanging right now!
Lesson learned, pace myself, its a 4 day a week program...
I didnt feel that I had overdone it yesterday, but clearly put more work in than I thought. That said, the weight felt good today, and I think were I not half wiped out it would have been a really good session.
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samhennings wrote: »Just for what it is worth, I think it is common for people to stay on a 5 x 5 a bit too long and they end up feeling like it is a constant grind because pretty much every session is taken to failure or very very close to it.
And so fatigue gets way too high and this causes progress to stall.
@psuLemon designed a spreadsheet with this program and I think he's going to be uploading it soon.
A few things to keep in mind when running 5/3/1:
When you plug in your numbers Jim suggests taking 90% of your true one rep max when you run the calculations and I agree with this and think it's an important step.
Doing a deload every seventh week is fine but do not skip this because it is important for long-term progress.
Finally, the final set in 5/3/1 on your main lift can be done as AMRAP or "as many reps as possible" and I think it's a good idea especially if you are setting the program up correctly and taking 90% of your one rep max for the calculations as mentioned previously.
I used voice text for this message so apologies if there are grammatical errors
Quick update.
Ive recently introduced a friend to the gym, and have been showing him the main lifts.
Was in with him yesterday, so didnt do 5/3/1. I did, however, do a fair volume of work with the main 5 lifts and so took it as a day 1 proxy.
Went in for day 2 today, and it kicked my *kitten* completely.
The bench was fine, last set went to 10 reps so I was quite happy with that. Then the OHP accessory just destroyed me. Ended up with something like 9,8,9,9 reps.
Shoulders and arms are hanging right now!
Lesson learned, pace myself, its a 4 day a week program...
I didnt feel that I had overdone it yesterday, but clearly put more work in than I thought. That said, the weight felt good today, and I think were I not half wiped out it would have been a really good session.
I would take % down lower. Make it so that you have 1-2 reps in reserve on the final set0 -
OHP has always been one I struggle with, though I think in this case its more a case of fatigue carrying over than the weight being an issue.
Its something Ill keep an eye on. Im not so proud I wont take the weight down if I need to, but I did want to complete this first cycle before making those decisions.
On first glance all the weights look pretty good to me so Ill give it a go for now.
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Just for what it is worth, I think it is common for people to stay on a 5 x 5 a bit too long and they end up feeling like it is a constant grind because pretty much every session is taken to failure or very very close to it.
And so fatigue gets way too high and this causes progress to stall.
@psuLemon designed a spreadsheet with this program and I think he's going to be uploading it soon.
A few things to keep in mind when running 5/3/1:
When you plug in your numbers Jim suggests taking 90% of your true one rep max when you run the calculations and I agree with this and think it's an important step.
Doing a deload every seventh week is fine but do not skip this because it is important for long-term progress.
Finally, the final set in 5/3/1 on your main lift can be done as AMRAP or "as many reps as possible" and I think it's a good idea especially if you are setting the program up correctly and taking 90% of your one rep max for the calculations as mentioned previously.
I used voice text for this message so apologies if there are grammatical errors
As promised, attached is a copy of the ETP version of Wendler 5,3,1. I have added some instructions and will make updates as necessary. If anyone has any questions, please let me know.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6t63TSpf1SAVDBPak9oVVcxaGs/view
ETA: I have it set up to only share with those with the link, so please feel free to share the link.
Great worksheet!!!! Thanks!0 -
Just for what it is worth, I think it is common for people to stay on a 5 x 5 a bit too long and they end up feeling like it is a constant grind because pretty much every session is taken to failure or very very close to it.
And so fatigue gets way too high and this causes progress to stall.
@psuLemon designed a spreadsheet with this program and I think he's going to be uploading it soon.
A few things to keep in mind when running 5/3/1:
When you plug in your numbers Jim suggests taking 90% of your true one rep max when you run the calculations and I agree with this and think it's an important step.
Doing a deload every seventh week is fine but do not skip this because it is important for long-term progress.
Finally, the final set in 5/3/1 on your main lift can be done as AMRAP or "as many reps as possible" and I think it's a good idea especially if you are setting the program up correctly and taking 90% of your one rep max for the calculations as mentioned previously.
I used voice text for this message so apologies if there are grammatical errors
As promised, attached is a copy of the ETP version of Wendler 5,3,1. I have added some instructions and will make updates as necessary. If anyone has any questions, please let me know.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6t63TSpf1SAVDBPak9oVVcxaGs/view
ETA: I have it set up to only share with those with the link, so please feel free to share the link.
Great worksheet!!!! Thanks!
Thanks. It only took like a billion times to get it right.. thank you Christmas Holiday and lack of sleep.0 -
My poor communication about this didn't help any. LOL so I will take some of the blame of course0
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That's a good reason to be tired! Cute kiddo.0
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The little one in the green pajamas isn't bad either, lol.1
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Are you still considering adding the warm-up sets to your spreadsheet?
Using it now, and coming in very handy!0 -
Just wanted to say, Im half way through week 3, deload week next week, and I love it.
The volume on the accessories is kicking my *kitten*, but Im adapting and beginning to thrive on it.
Im working out 4 times a week, and looking forward to each one.
Prior to this I was intending to work out 4 times but averaging 3 (some weeks 2).
I cant put my finger on what it is Im enjoying so much, but Im definitely a convert. I think its possibly the changeability of it, no two work outs are the same.
I am also consistently worn out. Worn out in that "damn I worked hard and it feels good" way, rather than "holy crap I cant move" kind of way
Im am very grateful for this thread, I think it came along at just the right time for me.3 -
Figures, lol. Just when I start to get involved in a fitness routine I think I'll like for a while (just finished week 3 of a modified version of above), I discover my work schedule will change in a few weeks to something quite different. Specifically, 4 days on, 4 days off work, and the days on will have NO time to hit the gym. (12-hr shifts, 1.5hr commute each way hitting the road in the morning before the gym even opens, sleep, cooking dinner and helping kids with homework. Oh, and every other work rotation will be graveyard shifts.)
The good news is the days off I'll be able to hit the gym for 1-2 hrs again, not the 25-minute cram sessions I've been doing the last couple months. But I'm concerned whether I'd get sufficient recovery between workouts if I tried to do 4 separate workouts each break, with bench/OHP on day 1/3 and squat/DL on day 2/4.
My thought process is to do something like the following:
Day 1
Bench/OHP 5/3/1
Sq/DL Volume
Day 4
Sq/DL 5/3/1
Bench/OHP Volume
This would give 3 days between workouts, then the 4 days of working, hitting each lift twice every 8 days. I could also throw in some pullups or rows and lateral raise/face pulls to round things out. I can do a supplemental workout on days 2/3 for stuff like arms, traps, lats. Alternatively, at work I have to remain at my desk at all times, but I do have access to some DB's to do curls or tricep extensions during slow periods.
My thought for having the heavy bench & heavy OHP on the same day is that after my bench my arms would be sufficiently warmed up for the OHP (which lags way behind in weight atm). Same thought for sq/DL combo. But if it would be better to not have them heavy on the same day, then perhaps option two would be:
Day 1
Bench/Squat 5/3/1
OHP/DL Volume
Day 4
OHP/DL 5/3/1
Bench/Squat Volume
Opinions? I'd be willing (and probably desired) to go every day I'm off (except Sundays), as this plan only calls for two trips to the gym every 8 days. But ya gotta do what ya gotta do, ya know?0 -
I would train all 4 days and just modify volume and/or intensity to allow proper recovery.
You might need to back the volume down slightly on the BBB stuff and be more selective with accessory work.
If lower body fatigue is too high consider dropping the BBB deadlifting and replace it with hip thrusts or DB single leg RDLs. Something that works a hinge pattern or direct glute work but not as taxing as deads.
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This discussion has been closed.