January Q and A thread
SideSteel
Posts: 11,068 Member
Got questions? Don't hesitate to post them in here and I'll check in periodically to answer what I can. I'll be doing some video replies as well.
Happy (early) New Year!
Happy (early) New Year!
0
Replies
-
How can you determine the appropriate calorie amount that is not too low so as to lose muscle along with fat? The recommended of 1750 for 1.5 lbs of loss and 1200 for 2 lbs a week are both hard for me to stay under most days. I'm too hungry!0
-
How can you determine the appropriate calorie amount that is not too low so as to lose muscle along with fat? The recommended of 1750 for 1.5 lbs of loss and 1200 for 2 lbs a week are both hard for me to stay under most days. I'm too hungry!
Great question!
I'd video reply on this but I'm sitting in a coffee shop and I'd probably piss people off if I start talking to my screen, so I'll type this one:
The main things I'd tend to look at would be rate of weight loss per week, protein intake, and gym performance, and based on a rough idea of what I'd expect to happen I'd decide whether or not something needs to be adjusted.
So lets give some general criteria here:
I think a range of around .5 to 1.5% change in weight per week is likely to land most people in a reasonable range of weight loss. Could someone go faster and retain LBM? Probably in people who are just starting out lifting, probably in people with obesity who have a lot of weight to lose.
But for most people I think this range of loss is likely to be good.
I think keeping protein somewhere around 1g/lb goal weight or 1.6g/kg bodyweight or higher would be a good idea to improve the odds of maximally maintaining muscle mass during dieting.
I think training each muscle group at least two times per week (full body 2/week, upper/lower 4/week, split training done 5+ times/week, etc) using appropriate loads and volume so that at worst case, you are maintaining strength (and ideally gaining it) during the diet, is likely to be quite important. There are tons of ways to set this up.
On the flipside:
If I had someone losing weight faster than the range above, eating the RDA in protein, with sub optimal training or zero training, I would be concerned about losing excess lean mass and in most (but not all) cases I'd recommend against it.
Let me know if this generalization is helpful to your question.2 -
I have a random question (hope it's not silly!) I know muscle building is all about calories and programming, followed by macros etc and anything else is really majoring in the minors.. but I was just wondering about your thoughts on dextrose? I usually have it (in the form of candy) before and after my lifting sessions (I have always done this) and I'd like to *think* it is helping, or maybe it's just fun to eat, haha. Just curious if there is any benefit, or is it just a bunch of bro-science. Thanks!1
-
I have a random question (hope it's not silly!) I know muscle building is all about calories and programming, followed by macros etc and anything else is really majoring in the minors.. but I was just wondering about your thoughts on dextrose? I usually have it (in the form of candy) before and after my lifting sessions (I have always done this) and I'd like to *think* it is helping, or maybe it's just fun to eat, haha. Just curious if there is any benefit, or is it just a bunch of bro-science. Thanks!
I think in most contexts it's waste of calories and carbohydrate that could be used on things more enjoyable and more satiating.
Generally, the two main reasons people will use dextrose are as follows:
a) Glycogen replenishment.
We know that carbohoydrate in the post workout period will replenish glycogen. The question becomes, is glycogen repletion necessary? Well we know that it takes a LOT of exercise volume to fully deplete glycogen -- most people who lift for an hour or so and do some cardio are not fully depleting glycogen. Additionally, if you do deplete muscle glycogen enough that you need it replenished, you only really need to time this if you are performing another glycogen demanding bout of exercise in the same day.
And so glycogen repletion is really only necessary if you're an athlete training multiple times per day on highly glycogen-demanding training.
For the rest of us, your normal eating habits are going to replete glycogen adequately.
b) Insulin spiking.
A common previously held belief was that we needed to spike insulin because training increases muscle protein breakdown acutely, and raising insulin levels will blunt muscle protein breakdown. Blunt muscle protein breakdown and you could argue that this leads to net increases in muscle.
However, whey protein alone will sufficiently elevate insulin, and so in most cases you can eliminate the dextrose from the post workout drink (assuming you're ingesting a protein based drink post-workout) and not miss out on any apparent benefits.
All this being said, if you have the caloric capacity to add dextrose, and you wouldn't be better satisfied "spending those calories elsewhere" then I don't necessarily see harm in it. I would just challenge the benefits under most circumstances.
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-10-5
Finally, no that was not a silly question!2 -
Thank you @SideSteel .. pretty much what I thought, I definitely don't think I need it, but I have the caloric capacity for it (I am overwhelmed with calories atm
) I was just wondering if all the "hype" around it was true and a part of me was all "if I don't have it, am I not giving myself the best possible chance of muscle recovery and building". Awesome. 0 -
Programming question for you, @SideSteel:
(For context, 54 y/o male, 6'6", 212#, somewhere around 15'ish% BF. I've been cutting for about the past 16 months, loss averaging around .7 lbs/week, with diet breaks interspersed here and there. My plan is to cut until I get my BF% just a bit lower (purely for aesthetics), then transition to recomp or maybe a very slight/slow bulk, as I know I'm well past my prime muscle gaining years.)
I spent about the first 10 months of my cut on a 3-day, full body routine. Since then, I've been running Lyle's Generic Bulking Routine for about 6 months, 3 days a week doing an ABA/BAB on alternating weeks (Lower/Upper/Lower, then Upper/Lower/Upper). In that format, every body part gets hit every fifth day. I've been tossing around the idea of doing it as Lower/Upper/Full Body (with reduced volume on the full body day, obviously), which would result in every body part getting hit twice a week.
So the question is, do you see any advantages/disadvantages to changing up the programming that way? My first instinct tells me that it's probably majoring in the minors and not going to make any significant difference, but I thought I'd ask your input anyway, just to put my mind at rest, lol. Thanks!
0 -
Programming question for you, @SideSteel:
(For context, 54 y/o male, 6'6", 212#, somewhere around 15'ish% BF. I've been cutting for about the past 16 months, loss averaging around .7 lbs/week, with diet breaks interspersed here and there. My plan is to cut until I get my BF% just a bit lower (purely for aesthetics), then transition to recomp or maybe a very slight/slow bulk, as I know I'm well past my prime muscle gaining years.)
I spent about the first 10 months of my cut on a 3-day, full body routine. Since then, I've been running Lyle's Generic Bulking Routine for about 6 months, 3 days a week doing an ABA/BAB on alternating weeks (Lower/Upper/Lower, then Upper/Lower/Upper). In that format, every body part gets hit every fifth day. I've been tossing around the idea of doing it as Lower/Upper/Full Body (with reduced volume on the full body day, obviously), which would result in every body part getting hit twice a week.
So the question is, do you see any advantages/disadvantages to changing up the programming that way? My first instinct tells me that it's probably majoring in the minors and not going to make any significant difference, but I thought I'd ask your input anyway, just to put my mind at rest, lol. Thanks!
I would tend to think that the latter approach might be slightly better due to higher frequency, but I wouldn't be able to quantify how much of a difference it might make.
I do think it would be worth trying out, and depending on what movements you're selecting you are also getting an opportunity to execute those lifts more often which may benefit you from a skill acquisition standpoint.1 -
I have a random question (hope it's not silly!) I know muscle building is all about calories and programming, followed by macros etc and anything else is really majoring in the minors.. but I was just wondering about your thoughts on dextrose? I usually have it (in the form of candy) before and after my lifting sessions (I have always done this) and I'd like to *think* it is helping, or maybe it's just fun to eat, haha. Just curious if there is any benefit, or is it just a bunch of bro-science. Thanks!
I think in most contexts it's waste of calories and carbohydrate that could be used on things more enjoyable and more satiating.
Generally, the two main reasons people will use dextrose are as follows:
a) Glycogen replenishment.
We know that carbohoydrate in the post workout period will replenish glycogen. The question becomes, is glycogen repletion necessary? Well we know that it takes a LOT of exercise volume to fully deplete glycogen -- most people who lift for an hour or so and do some cardio are not fully depleting glycogen. Additionally, if you do deplete muscle glycogen enough that you need it replenished, you only really need to time this if you are performing another glycogen demanding bout of exercise in the same day.
And so glycogen repletion is really only necessary if you're an athlete training multiple times per day on highly glycogen-demanding training.
For the rest of us, your normal eating habits are going to replete glycogen adequately.
b) Insulin spiking.
A common previously held belief was that we needed to spike insulin because training increases muscle protein breakdown acutely, and raising insulin levels will blunt muscle protein breakdown. Blunt muscle protein breakdown and you could argue that this leads to net increases in muscle.
However, whey protein alone will sufficiently elevate insulin, and so in most cases you can eliminate the dextrose from the post workout drink (assuming you're ingesting a protein based drink post-workout) and not miss out on any apparent benefits.
All this being said, if you have the caloric capacity to add dextrose, and you wouldn't be better satisfied "spending those calories elsewhere" then I don't necessarily see harm in it. I would just challenge the benefits under most circumstances.
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-10-5
Finally, no that was not a silly question!
I absolutely agree with SideSteel here on the post, but I would add an n=1, anecdote for pre-.
I have noticed better explosiveness when using dextrose (both powder form and Spree) along with my pre-workout about 30 minutes before lifting. This is especially true when I am in a carb depleted state, but even at my current point (25-35% kcals from carbs), the difference is worth noting.
That said, a lot of my carb intake is from "slower" sources like dairy, steel cut oats, vegetables, etc., so that could have something to do with it as well.1 -
Programming question for you, @SideSteel:
(For context, 54 y/o male, 6'6", 212#, somewhere around 15'ish% BF. I've been cutting for about the past 16 months, loss averaging around .7 lbs/week, with diet breaks interspersed here and there. My plan is to cut until I get my BF% just a bit lower (purely for aesthetics), then transition to recomp or maybe a very slight/slow bulk, as I know I'm well past my prime muscle gaining years.)
I spent about the first 10 months of my cut on a 3-day, full body routine. Since then, I've been running Lyle's Generic Bulking Routine for about 6 months, 3 days a week doing an ABA/BAB on alternating weeks (Lower/Upper/Lower, then Upper/Lower/Upper). In that format, every body part gets hit every fifth day. I've been tossing around the idea of doing it as Lower/Upper/Full Body (with reduced volume on the full body day, obviously), which would result in every body part getting hit twice a week.
So the question is, do you see any advantages/disadvantages to changing up the programming that way? My first instinct tells me that it's probably majoring in the minors and not going to make any significant difference, but I thought I'd ask your input anyway, just to put my mind at rest, lol. Thanks!
I would tend to think that the latter approach might be slightly better due to higher frequency, but I wouldn't be able to quantify how much of a difference it might make.
I do think it would be worth trying out, and depending on what movements you're selecting you are also getting an opportunity to execute those lifts more often which may benefit you from a skill acquisition standpoint.
Thanks for the response. I'll give it a try and see how it feels, I'm scheduled for a deload next week anyway so it's a perfect time to change it up.0 -
Beginner here and I think I had a light bulb moment re reps in reserve.
I keep wanting to "assign a number to a set". I think when I progress to 2 and 3 sets that each set will have a reserve meaning that set 1, 2 & 3 may have a different number of reps.
Is this correct? Do I finally have it?0 -
leanjogreen18 wrote: »Beginner here and I think I had a light bulb moment re reps in reserve.
I keep wanting to "assign a number to a set". I think when I progress to 2 and 3 sets that each set will have a reserve meaning that set 1, 2 & 3 may have a different number of reps.
Is this correct? Do I finally have it?
If the load is the same across the sets (which it is in your case) then yes, I would generally assume that the number of reps you get done in each set will DECREASE if you are keeping the same number of reps in reserve.
Example using your program -- when you do your KB rows, you might do 15 reps your first set leaving 2 reps in the tank, followed by 13 reps your next set (still leaving two in the tank) followed by 12 reps the final set (still leaving two in the tank).
This is because fatigue will set in and each subsequent set will likely be slightly more challenging.
Once again, this ASSUMES that you are using the same load, and the same reps in reserve (or RPE) on each set. You are doing this (note to others, I designed her program) but not everyone does this.
For example there are many programs that have a top set followed by a load reduction for the remaining sets.
There are also many programs that have an assigned load and assigned set and rep target and what generally happens in this case is that the number of reps in reserve goes down across the sets.
Example: Bench Press 225 3 sets of 8. Someone may have 4 reps in reserve on set 1, 2 in reserve on set 2, and 1 in reserve on set 3. So in this example set 3 is relatively more difficult.
In your program, all the sets are roughly the same difficulty.
Let me know if this makes sense!0 -
Thank you!!! I got it:).
I think now it's just figuring out my real reps in reserve vs what I think.0 -
leanjogreen18 wrote: »
Thank you!!! I got it:).
I think now it's just figuring out my real reps in reserve vs what I think.
You will get better at it over time.
For STARTERS, lets take a look at whether or not the amount of work you are doing over the course of a training block is going UP or not.
When we do a follow up skype session, have your sets and reps ready from previous training sessions and I'll help you go over this and interpret what the data says.
Ultimately, if your workload is going up, you're in a good spot whether you are accurately measuring reps in reserve or not.1 -
Happy New Year.
I have a goal of bench pressing BW x 1.5 but have been stuck shy of that for all of 2016 - advice/guidance on how to break my plateau would be appreciated as I'm very goal driven and it frustrates the hell out of me!
Me: Age 56, maintaining weight at c. 77kg, bench goal 115.5kg, stuck at 3RM 100kg.
My technique is based on the Jennifer Thompson bench tutorial these days (used to bench flat backed) highest lifetime bench (decades ago) was 130kg.
My strength training is x3 a week and typically bench press twice a week with a barbell and once a week on a machine at my work gym which allegedly goes to 100kg but feels more like 90kg with a slight decline (but at least I can fail without pinning myself to the bench, my lift tends to fail at the bottom of the movement...).
I also have access to a plate loaded incline bench machine (TechnoGym) but rarely use it.
I train in a pyramid style and don't go lower than 3RM as that seems to help prevent injury. I know that's not ideal for hitting maximums but have an old supraspinatus tendon injury I need to avoid aggravating.
"Typical" barbell session would be:
50kg x 12 (warmup)
60kg x 10
70kg x 8
80kg x 6
90kg x 4
100kg x 3 very shaky reps
Any help appreciated.0 -
Happy New Year.
I have a goal of bench pressing BW x 1.5 but have been stuck shy of that for all of 2016 - advice/guidance on how to break my plateau would be appreciated as I'm very goal driven and it frustrates the hell out of me!
Me: Age 56, maintaining weight at c. 77kg, bench goal 115.5kg, stuck at 3RM 100kg.
My technique is based on the Jennifer Thompson bench tutorial these days (used to bench flat backed) highest lifetime bench (decades ago) was 130kg.
My strength training is x3 a week and typically bench press twice a week with a barbell and once a week on a machine at my work gym which allegedly goes to 100kg but feels more like 90kg with a slight decline (but at least I can fail without pinning myself to the bench, my lift tends to fail at the bottom of the movement...).
I also have access to a plate loaded incline bench machine (TechnoGym) but rarely use it.
I train in a pyramid style and don't go lower than 3RM as that seems to help prevent injury. I know that's not ideal for hitting maximums but have an old supraspinatus tendon injury I need to avoid aggravating.
"Typical" barbell session would be:
50kg x 12 (warmup)
60kg x 10
70kg x 8
80kg x 6
90kg x 4
100kg x 3 very shaky reps
Any help appreciated.
Great post.
I have a lot of thoughts on this and I'm just leaving for the gym now but I'll reply a few times here as I chew on this, so to speak.
One criticism I have of pyramid training is that often times there's too much fatigue accumulation in the lower intensity sets and it negatively effect performance in the top set or sets.
I can't say for certain whether that's going on here, but I'd like to know the following from you:
a) Can you approximate the RPE or the number of reps in reserve (either language is fine) starting with the 60kg set and going all the way to the end?
b) Do you always do that set and rep scheme and then do you evaluate your progress based on the number of reps of the 100kg set?
What you've basically got here when we look at this in %rm is:
1x8@65%
1x6@75%
1x4@85%
1x3@92.5 to 95%
Anyway, I have some initial ideas here but I'd like to first hear your answers to my two questions about before suggesting how to modify the layout.0 -
Happy New Year.
I have a goal of bench pressing BW x 1.5 but have been stuck shy of that for all of 2016 - advice/guidance on how to break my plateau would be appreciated as I'm very goal driven and it frustrates the hell out of me!
Me: Age 56, maintaining weight at c. 77kg, bench goal 115.5kg, stuck at 3RM 100kg.
My technique is based on the Jennifer Thompson bench tutorial these days (used to bench flat backed) highest lifetime bench (decades ago) was 130kg.
My strength training is x3 a week and typically bench press twice a week with a barbell and once a week on a machine at my work gym which allegedly goes to 100kg but feels more like 90kg with a slight decline (but at least I can fail without pinning myself to the bench, my lift tends to fail at the bottom of the movement...).
I also have access to a plate loaded incline bench machine (TechnoGym) but rarely use it.
I train in a pyramid style and don't go lower than 3RM as that seems to help prevent injury. I know that's not ideal for hitting maximums but have an old supraspinatus tendon injury I need to avoid aggravating.
"Typical" barbell session would be:
50kg x 12 (warmup)
60kg x 10
70kg x 8
80kg x 6
90kg x 4
100kg x 3 very shaky reps
Any help appreciated.
Great post.
I have a lot of thoughts on this and I'm just leaving for the gym now but I'll reply a few times here as I chew on this, so to speak.
One criticism I have of pyramid training is that often times there's too much fatigue accumulation in the lower intensity sets and it negatively effect performance in the top set or sets.
I can't say for certain whether that's going on here, but I'd like to know the following from you:
a) Can you approximate the RPE or the number of reps in reserve (either language is fine) starting with the 60kg set and going all the way to the end?
b) Do you always do that set and rep scheme and then do you evaluate your progress based on the number of reps of the 100kg set?
What you've basically got here when we look at this in %rm is:
1x8@65%
1x6@75%
1x4@85%
1x3@92.5 to 95%
Anyway, I have some initial ideas here but I'd like to first hear your answers to my two questions about before suggesting how to modify the layout.
One criticism I have of pyramid training is that often times there's too much fatigue accumulation in the lower intensity sets and it negatively effect performance in the top set or sets.
Agree.
I seem to tolerate high volume quite well and my recovery between sets is good (high level cardio fitness probably helps). I increase the recovery time between sets as the weight progresses from virtually none to 3 mins before last set.
a ) Can you approximate the RPE or the number of reps in reserve (either language is fine) starting with the 60kg set and going all the way to the end?
Reps in reserve on a good day, I stop early on a bad gym day if I feel I've hit that day's max:
60kg x 10 - still warming up, 10 left?
70kg x 8 - 6 or 7
80kg x 6 - 4 or 5
90kg x 4 - 2 maybe 3.
100kg - nothing, safety bars in danger of being used (OK - I admit I have done the "wiggle of shame" a couple of times...)
b) Do you always do that set and rep scheme and then do you evaluate your progress based on the number of reps of the 100kg set?
It's not unusual to add a second 100kg set if I feel there's something left in the tank.
That's my most frequent style of strength work (workout typically is heavy compounds 2 push/2 pull upper body as the foundation then add either core work or accessory work or leg work).
I train in a circuit training style sometimes (still mostly compounds but alternating push/pull/upper/lower) and the bench component may be 10 x 10 but still ascending weight.
I am really looking for ultimate strength as my progress metric for bench and other upper body compounds.
Core work is all about strength endurance for me (I'm a long distance cyclist.)
Leg strength work is injury limited for weight and also limited to allow recovery from cycle training.0 -
@SideSteel will likely have more to say, but my performance at the top-end has improved significantly since I went from
10x50% of working set
8x60%
6x70%
4x80%
2x90%
Work
...to...
10x50%
5x60%
3x75%
1x90%
Work
1 -
Happy New Year.
I have a goal of bench pressing BW x 1.5 but have been stuck shy of that for all of 2016 - advice/guidance on how to break my plateau would be appreciated as I'm very goal driven and it frustrates the hell out of me!
Me: Age 56, maintaining weight at c. 77kg, bench goal 115.5kg, stuck at 3RM 100kg.
My technique is based on the Jennifer Thompson bench tutorial these days (used to bench flat backed) highest lifetime bench (decades ago) was 130kg.
My strength training is x3 a week and typically bench press twice a week with a barbell and once a week on a machine at my work gym which allegedly goes to 100kg but feels more like 90kg with a slight decline (but at least I can fail without pinning myself to the bench, my lift tends to fail at the bottom of the movement...).
I also have access to a plate loaded incline bench machine (TechnoGym) but rarely use it.
I train in a pyramid style and don't go lower than 3RM as that seems to help prevent injury. I know that's not ideal for hitting maximums but have an old supraspinatus tendon injury I need to avoid aggravating.
"Typical" barbell session would be:
50kg x 12 (warmup)
60kg x 10
70kg x 8
80kg x 6
90kg x 4
100kg x 3 very shaky reps
Any help appreciated.
Great post.
I have a lot of thoughts on this and I'm just leaving for the gym now but I'll reply a few times here as I chew on this, so to speak.
One criticism I have of pyramid training is that often times there's too much fatigue accumulation in the lower intensity sets and it negatively effect performance in the top set or sets.
I can't say for certain whether that's going on here, but I'd like to know the following from you:
a) Can you approximate the RPE or the number of reps in reserve (either language is fine) starting with the 60kg set and going all the way to the end?
b) Do you always do that set and rep scheme and then do you evaluate your progress based on the number of reps of the 100kg set?
What you've basically got here when we look at this in %rm is:
1x8@65%
1x6@75%
1x4@85%
1x3@92.5 to 95%
Anyway, I have some initial ideas here but I'd like to first hear your answers to my two questions about before suggesting how to modify the layout.
One criticism I have of pyramid training is that often times there's too much fatigue accumulation in the lower intensity sets and it negatively effect performance in the top set or sets.
Agree.
I seem to tolerate high volume quite well and my recovery between sets is good (high level cardio fitness probably helps). I increase the recovery time between sets as the weight progresses from virtually none to 3 mins before last set.
a ) Can you approximate the RPE or the number of reps in reserve (either language is fine) starting with the 60kg set and going all the way to the end?
Reps in reserve on a good day, I stop early on a bad gym day if I feel I've hit that day's max:
60kg x 10 - still warming up, 10 left?
70kg x 8 - 6 or 7
80kg x 6 - 4 or 5
90kg x 4 - 2 maybe 3.
100kg - nothing, safety bars in danger of being used (OK - I admit I have done the "wiggle of shame" a couple of times...)
b) Do you always do that set and rep scheme and then do you evaluate your progress based on the number of reps of the 100kg set?
It's not unusual to add a second 100kg set if I feel there's something left in the tank.
That's my most frequent style of strength work (workout typically is heavy compounds 2 push/2 pull upper body as the foundation then add either core work or accessory work or leg work).
I train in a circuit training style sometimes (still mostly compounds but alternating push/pull/upper/lower) and the bench component may be 10 x 10 but still ascending weight.
I am really looking for ultimate strength as my progress metric for bench and other upper body compounds.
Core work is all about strength endurance for me (I'm a long distance cyclist.)
Leg strength work is injury limited for weight and also limited to allow recovery from cycle training.
So here's one way you could attempt to set this up. Consider this as somewhat of napkin programming but I think this is likely to work well for you.
I'm going to list this in lbs instead of kg, hopefully that''s not too annoying. I'll assume 3 training days per week, I'll assume you're benching first as your main press movement (meaning, if you squat before that, fine, but I'm assuming you're not doing things like a tricep extension before benching which I doubt you would because you know better)
I'm going to outline this such that the TOP LINE is week 1 and each line below that is the next WEEK.
Day 1
4 x 8 @ 165
4 x 7 @ 170
4 x 6 @ 175
5 x 5 @ 180
5 x 4 @ 185
6 x 3 @ 195
Day 3
4 x 5 @ 180
5 x 4 @ 190
6 x 3 @ 200
6 x 2 @ 210
8 x 1 @ 220
Test AMRAP at 220 week 6
Skip all pressing movements on day 2 week 6 -- so basically whatever you do at your non benching gym in that middle session, skip pressing entirely for recovery and maybe take it easy on other stuff as well.
I would expect the first few weeks to be pretty easy although it's possible that even at the lower intensities you may still feel like this is a good amount of volume since you're doing straight sets across
For warmups I'll just list 1 example of how you could do this, lets assume it's Day 3 @ 180lbs
Empty bar 1 to 2 sets of 10+
95 x 8 (optional if you can go straight to 135)
135 x 6 - 8
155 x 4
170 x 1 to 2
180 working sets
Example for 220
Empty Bar 1 to 2 sets of 10+
95 x 8 (optional if you can go straight to 135)
135 x 6 - 8
155 x 4
175 x 1 to 2
190 x 1
205 x 1
220 working sets
The other thing I'd add to the above is that I'd expect the following things, or I'd recommend them:
1) On the middle day where you're at your non benching gym I'd keep rep ranges in the 6 to 15 range depending on the exercise and I'd make sure you're limiting it to about RPE 8 on most sets. Don't take pressing movements to failure and don't do an assload of volume.
2) On the main benching days I would expect your RPE on working sets to range between about 6 and 8 for most sets with the final sets being slightly more challenging, but I wouldn't expect you to be flirting with failure at all.
Let me know if you have questions, you're not obligated to run this just because I took the time to lay it out. I found this question interesting and I've been doing a lot of thinking about programming in the past few weeks so I felt compelled to crank this out -- no guarantees to others in this thread that I'll always do this to this level of detail but you're of course always welcome to ask.
0 -
^ Also, for anyone interested I basically made an estimated 1rm of 235 and then did some calculations to estimate appropriate loading ranges for the volume above. I would anticipate this would likely get a small PR at the end of the training cycle either in the form of added volume on an AMRAP test at 220 OR in the form of a 1rm test .
If I were coaching this person I'd be taking objective feedback by looking at video of the lifts to watch bar speed and also getting feedback on RPE on a per set basis to see where things are progressing from week to week, followed by making minor adjustments to load and volume as needed to make sure things are progressing -- possibly progressing faster if performance dictates it and possibly regressing if things are not progressing at an expected rate (ie reps being missed or RPE being higher than we want).
I mention the above all for additional information so that people who might be reading this understand the process I would take because it might help you to take this process yourself on your own lifts and programming.1 -
Happy New Year.
I have a goal of bench pressing BW x 1.5 but have been stuck shy of that for all of 2016 - advice/guidance on how to break my plateau would be appreciated as I'm very goal driven and it frustrates the hell out of me!
Me: Age 56, maintaining weight at c. 77kg, bench goal 115.5kg, stuck at 3RM 100kg.
My technique is based on the Jennifer Thompson bench tutorial these days (used to bench flat backed) highest lifetime bench (decades ago) was 130kg.
My strength training is x3 a week and typically bench press twice a week with a barbell and once a week on a machine at my work gym which allegedly goes to 100kg but feels more like 90kg with a slight decline (but at least I can fail without pinning myself to the bench, my lift tends to fail at the bottom of the movement...).
I also have access to a plate loaded incline bench machine (TechnoGym) but rarely use it.
I train in a pyramid style and don't go lower than 3RM as that seems to help prevent injury. I know that's not ideal for hitting maximums but have an old supraspinatus tendon injury I need to avoid aggravating.
"Typical" barbell session would be:
50kg x 12 (warmup)
60kg x 10
70kg x 8
80kg x 6
90kg x 4
100kg x 3 very shaky reps
Any help appreciated.
Great post.
I have a lot of thoughts on this and I'm just leaving for the gym now but I'll reply a few times here as I chew on this, so to speak.
One criticism I have of pyramid training is that often times there's too much fatigue accumulation in the lower intensity sets and it negatively effect performance in the top set or sets.
I can't say for certain whether that's going on here, but I'd like to know the following from you:
a) Can you approximate the RPE or the number of reps in reserve (either language is fine) starting with the 60kg set and going all the way to the end?
b) Do you always do that set and rep scheme and then do you evaluate your progress based on the number of reps of the 100kg set?
What you've basically got here when we look at this in %rm is:
1x8@65%
1x6@75%
1x4@85%
1x3@92.5 to 95%
Anyway, I have some initial ideas here but I'd like to first hear your answers to my two questions about before suggesting how to modify the layout.
One criticism I have of pyramid training is that often times there's too much fatigue accumulation in the lower intensity sets and it negatively effect performance in the top set or sets.
Agree.
I seem to tolerate high volume quite well and my recovery between sets is good (high level cardio fitness probably helps). I increase the recovery time between sets as the weight progresses from virtually none to 3 mins before last set.
a ) Can you approximate the RPE or the number of reps in reserve (either language is fine) starting with the 60kg set and going all the way to the end?
Reps in reserve on a good day, I stop early on a bad gym day if I feel I've hit that day's max:
60kg x 10 - still warming up, 10 left?
70kg x 8 - 6 or 7
80kg x 6 - 4 or 5
90kg x 4 - 2 maybe 3.
100kg - nothing, safety bars in danger of being used (OK - I admit I have done the "wiggle of shame" a couple of times...)
b) Do you always do that set and rep scheme and then do you evaluate your progress based on the number of reps of the 100kg set?
It's not unusual to add a second 100kg set if I feel there's something left in the tank.
That's my most frequent style of strength work (workout typically is heavy compounds 2 push/2 pull upper body as the foundation then add either core work or accessory work or leg work).
I train in a circuit training style sometimes (still mostly compounds but alternating push/pull/upper/lower) and the bench component may be 10 x 10 but still ascending weight.
I am really looking for ultimate strength as my progress metric for bench and other upper body compounds.
Core work is all about strength endurance for me (I'm a long distance cyclist.)
Leg strength work is injury limited for weight and also limited to allow recovery from cycle training.
So here's one way you could attempt to set this up. Consider this as somewhat of napkin programming but I think this is likely to work well for you.
I'm going to list this in lbs instead of kg, hopefully that''s not too annoying. I'll assume 3 training days per week, I'll assume you're benching first as your main press movement (meaning, if you squat before that, fine, but I'm assuming you're not doing things like a tricep extension before benching which I doubt you would because you know better)
I'm going to outline this such that the TOP LINE is week 1 and each line below that is the next WEEK.
Day 1
4 x 8 @ 165
4 x 7 @ 170
4 x 6 @ 175
5 x 5 @ 180
5 x 4 @ 185
6 x 3 @ 195
Day 3
4 x 5 @ 180
5 x 4 @ 190
6 x 3 @ 200
6 x 2 @ 210
8 x 1 @ 220
Test AMRAP at 220 week 6
Skip all pressing movements on day 2 week 6 -- so basically whatever you do at your non benching gym in that middle session, skip pressing entirely for recovery and maybe take it easy on other stuff as well.
I would expect the first few weeks to be pretty easy although it's possible that even at the lower intensities you may still feel like this is a good amount of volume since you're doing straight sets across
For warmups I'll just list 1 example of how you could do this, lets assume it's Day 3 @ 180lbs
Empty bar 1 to 2 sets of 10+
95 x 8 (optional if you can go straight to 135)
135 x 6 - 8
155 x 4
170 x 1 to 2
180 working sets
Example for 220
Empty Bar 1 to 2 sets of 10+
95 x 8 (optional if you can go straight to 135)
135 x 6 - 8
155 x 4
175 x 1 to 2
190 x 1
205 x 1
220 working sets
The other thing I'd add to the above is that I'd expect the following things, or I'd recommend them:
1) On the middle day where you're at your non benching gym I'd keep rep ranges in the 6 to 15 range depending on the exercise and I'd make sure you're limiting it to about RPE 8 on most sets. Don't take pressing movements to failure and don't do an assload of volume.
2) On the main benching days I would expect your RPE on working sets to range between about 6 and 8 for most sets with the final sets being slightly more challenging, but I wouldn't expect you to be flirting with failure at all.
Let me know if you have questions, you're not obligated to run this just because I took the time to lay it out. I found this question interesting and I've been doing a lot of thinking about programming in the past few weeks so I felt compelled to crank this out -- no guarantees to others in this thread that I'll always do this to this level of detail but you're of course always welcome to ask.
That's really interesting and I will definitely give it a go.
I'm aware I'm a bit of a volume and failure junky so I'm fascinated to see how this works.
Definitely am obligated to try it - not just because it would be a waste of your time otherwise but also because what I'm doing isn't working anymore in terms of progression.
You are one of the real stars of myfitnesspal, many thanks.2 -
Happy New Year.
I have a goal of bench pressing BW x 1.5 but have been stuck shy of that for all of 2016 - advice/guidance on how to break my plateau would be appreciated as I'm very goal driven and it frustrates the hell out of me!
Me: Age 56, maintaining weight at c. 77kg, bench goal 115.5kg, stuck at 3RM 100kg.
My technique is based on the Jennifer Thompson bench tutorial these days (used to bench flat backed) highest lifetime bench (decades ago) was 130kg.
My strength training is x3 a week and typically bench press twice a week with a barbell and once a week on a machine at my work gym which allegedly goes to 100kg but feels more like 90kg with a slight decline (but at least I can fail without pinning myself to the bench, my lift tends to fail at the bottom of the movement...).
I also have access to a plate loaded incline bench machine (TechnoGym) but rarely use it.
I train in a pyramid style and don't go lower than 3RM as that seems to help prevent injury. I know that's not ideal for hitting maximums but have an old supraspinatus tendon injury I need to avoid aggravating.
"Typical" barbell session would be:
50kg x 12 (warmup)
60kg x 10
70kg x 8
80kg x 6
90kg x 4
100kg x 3 very shaky reps
Any help appreciated.
Great post.
I have a lot of thoughts on this and I'm just leaving for the gym now but I'll reply a few times here as I chew on this, so to speak.
One criticism I have of pyramid training is that often times there's too much fatigue accumulation in the lower intensity sets and it negatively effect performance in the top set or sets.
I can't say for certain whether that's going on here, but I'd like to know the following from you:
a) Can you approximate the RPE or the number of reps in reserve (either language is fine) starting with the 60kg set and going all the way to the end?
b) Do you always do that set and rep scheme and then do you evaluate your progress based on the number of reps of the 100kg set?
What you've basically got here when we look at this in %rm is:
1x8@65%
1x6@75%
1x4@85%
1x3@92.5 to 95%
Anyway, I have some initial ideas here but I'd like to first hear your answers to my two questions about before suggesting how to modify the layout.
One criticism I have of pyramid training is that often times there's too much fatigue accumulation in the lower intensity sets and it negatively effect performance in the top set or sets.
Agree.
I seem to tolerate high volume quite well and my recovery between sets is good (high level cardio fitness probably helps). I increase the recovery time between sets as the weight progresses from virtually none to 3 mins before last set.
a ) Can you approximate the RPE or the number of reps in reserve (either language is fine) starting with the 60kg set and going all the way to the end?
Reps in reserve on a good day, I stop early on a bad gym day if I feel I've hit that day's max:
60kg x 10 - still warming up, 10 left?
70kg x 8 - 6 or 7
80kg x 6 - 4 or 5
90kg x 4 - 2 maybe 3.
100kg - nothing, safety bars in danger of being used (OK - I admit I have done the "wiggle of shame" a couple of times...)
b) Do you always do that set and rep scheme and then do you evaluate your progress based on the number of reps of the 100kg set?
It's not unusual to add a second 100kg set if I feel there's something left in the tank.
That's my most frequent style of strength work (workout typically is heavy compounds 2 push/2 pull upper body as the foundation then add either core work or accessory work or leg work).
I train in a circuit training style sometimes (still mostly compounds but alternating push/pull/upper/lower) and the bench component may be 10 x 10 but still ascending weight.
I am really looking for ultimate strength as my progress metric for bench and other upper body compounds.
Core work is all about strength endurance for me (I'm a long distance cyclist.)
Leg strength work is injury limited for weight and also limited to allow recovery from cycle training.
So here's one way you could attempt to set this up. Consider this as somewhat of napkin programming but I think this is likely to work well for you.
I'm going to list this in lbs instead of kg, hopefully that''s not too annoying. I'll assume 3 training days per week, I'll assume you're benching first as your main press movement (meaning, if you squat before that, fine, but I'm assuming you're not doing things like a tricep extension before benching which I doubt you would because you know better)
I'm going to outline this such that the TOP LINE is week 1 and each line below that is the next WEEK.
Day 1
4 x 8 @ 165
4 x 7 @ 170
4 x 6 @ 175
5 x 5 @ 180
5 x 4 @ 185
6 x 3 @ 195
Day 3
4 x 5 @ 180
5 x 4 @ 190
6 x 3 @ 200
6 x 2 @ 210
8 x 1 @ 220
Test AMRAP at 220 week 6
Skip all pressing movements on day 2 week 6 -- so basically whatever you do at your non benching gym in that middle session, skip pressing entirely for recovery and maybe take it easy on other stuff as well.
I would expect the first few weeks to be pretty easy although it's possible that even at the lower intensities you may still feel like this is a good amount of volume since you're doing straight sets across
For warmups I'll just list 1 example of how you could do this, lets assume it's Day 3 @ 180lbs
Empty bar 1 to 2 sets of 10+
95 x 8 (optional if you can go straight to 135)
135 x 6 - 8
155 x 4
170 x 1 to 2
180 working sets
Example for 220
Empty Bar 1 to 2 sets of 10+
95 x 8 (optional if you can go straight to 135)
135 x 6 - 8
155 x 4
175 x 1 to 2
190 x 1
205 x 1
220 working sets
The other thing I'd add to the above is that I'd expect the following things, or I'd recommend them:
1) On the middle day where you're at your non benching gym I'd keep rep ranges in the 6 to 15 range depending on the exercise and I'd make sure you're limiting it to about RPE 8 on most sets. Don't take pressing movements to failure and don't do an assload of volume.
2) On the main benching days I would expect your RPE on working sets to range between about 6 and 8 for most sets with the final sets being slightly more challenging, but I wouldn't expect you to be flirting with failure at all.
Let me know if you have questions, you're not obligated to run this just because I took the time to lay it out. I found this question interesting and I've been doing a lot of thinking about programming in the past few weeks so I felt compelled to crank this out -- no guarantees to others in this thread that I'll always do this to this level of detail but you're of course always welcome to ask.
That's really interesting and I will definitely give it a go.
I'm aware I'm a bit of a volume and failure junky so I'm fascinated to see how this works.
Definitely am obligated to try it - not just because it would be a waste of your time otherwise but also because what I'm doing isn't working anymore in terms of progression.
You are one of the real stars of myfitnesspal, many thanks.
Thanks
To elaborate on my second reply after I posted the sample program, keep RPE in mind and maybe consider logging it on each set. How many reps in reserve do I have?
Anything above about 3 reps in the tank becomes hard to identify. If you're still in this territory at the end of your LAST set it's probably too light (perhaps except for week 1).
So for example, if it's week 3 and you're regularly having 3+ reps left in reserve on your final set (and by extension I'd assume all previous sets too), you can probably go slightly heavier with the weight on the barbell. But if you do this I'd only go in minimal increments because we are talking about multiple sets of multiple reps at that load.
Likewise if you find you're VERY close to failure or AT failure on multiple sets, I would back down slightly on load. (RPE 9 or 1 rep in reserve on your final set is fine. RPE 10 on multiple sets is not desirable).
Just wanted to spell it out a bit more so that you understand how you might tweak this if my estimated loads are off, and they certainly could be off. Feel free to follow up and let me know in this thread for my own amusement if you'd like.
I'd bet that it will feel fairly light on week 1 and maybe week 2 but I would also GUESS that by the final set it will start to feel like you're doing a decent amount of volume since this is more volume at a higher %rm which is one of the objectives here.
Make sense?1 -
Makes perfect sense.
Notebook added to gym bag.
A light couple of weeks is probably a good idea anyway as I've been pushing hard recently.0 -
Monthly randomness:
1) I've seen you recommend belts and knee sleeves even to beginner lifters. Any particular brands or considerations into buying these?
2) How soon after workouts do I really need to eat, and how much am I harming things if I don't? I workout early in the AM (4:30 or 5 am), finish by 6, grab a cup of coffee on the way to work and then eat once I am at work. Usually try to get 20-30g protein in at that point. But sometimes that can be 9 am. Too long? Usually eat about half of my calories/protein for dinner.0 -
Monthly randomness:
1) I've seen you recommend belts and knee sleeves even to beginner lifters. Any particular brands or considerations into buying these?
2) How soon after workouts do I really need to eat, and how much am I harming things if I don't? I workout early in the AM (4:30 or 5 am), finish by 6, grab a cup of coffee on the way to work and then eat once I am at work. Usually try to get 20-30g protein in at that point. But sometimes that can be 9 am. Too long? Usually eat about half of my calories/protein for dinner.
Holy cow I just rambled for 7 minutes. Vid incoming0 -
I'm going to include cliffs for this one since it's probably TL;DR for most people lol
0 -
Monthly randomness:
1) I've seen you recommend belts and knee sleeves even to beginner lifters. Any particular brands or considerations into buying these?
2) How soon after workouts do I really need to eat, and how much am I harming things if I don't? I workout early in the AM (4:30 or 5 am), finish by 6, grab a cup of coffee on the way to work and then eat once I am at work. Usually try to get 20-30g protein in at that point. But sometimes that can be 9 am. Too long? Usually eat about half of my calories/protein for dinner.
So here's my cliff notes/TLDR answer:
1) Inzer or bestbelts.net for belts. SBDs for knee sleeves. Consult sizing charts/recommendations on a per brand basis. For squat shoes, I like Sabo but I haven't used many different brands there.
2) Read this, it's amazing: https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-10-5
Shorter answer is "it depends". If you're training fasted, the postworkout meal is of increased importance. If you are eating a big meal beforehand, the postworkout meal timing is of lesser importance. Also depends on goals to some extent, and how advanced you are. Want to maximize your lbm? Nutrient timing and distribution matters at least somewhat.
Long rambly video that is still uploading:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO9mqvDpKaQ&feature=youtu.be
0 -
Hey, that was awesome!! Hope a bunch of people watch it cause it was really useful!
Re: belts, yes I meant beginner = not lifting a ton of weight. Already have some Reebok crossfit shoes with a bit of a heel. Don't think my form is awful but need to get around to taking some videos.
Great article!
I do train fasted, on weekdays at least. Just a matter of timing - trying to get workout in before kids wake up at 6. Life is busy in the hours of 6-8:30 or 9, and I'm typically not super hungry, and would rather have calories at another time. I think my nutrition is overall pretty well managed - get 120-130g protein, maintaining around ~2000 cals total, but I do prefer to eat more for dinner and skimp the rest of the day. Cause I like dinner.
I'm not obese but not super lean either. BMI 22. Not an advanced athlete or one that has many goals beyond keeping this interesting for myself (see above - buying of toys keeps me interested!) but maybe can try to get more protein in sooner after workout. Don't love shakes cause of the taste, but maybe need to revisit. Any good recommendations of protein shakes without Splenda/sucralose? Not opposed to artificial sweetener, just think splenda tastes like kitten.0 -
Hey, that was awesome!! Hope a bunch of people watch it cause it was really useful!
Re: belts, yes I meant beginner = not lifting a ton of weight. Already have some Reebok crossfit shoes with a bit of a heel. Don't think my form is awful but need to get around to taking some videos.
Great article!
I do train fasted, on weekdays at least. Just a matter of timing - trying to get workout in before kids wake up at 6. Life is busy in the hours of 6-8:30 or 9, and I'm typically not super hungry, and would rather have calories at another time. I think my nutrition is overall pretty well managed - get 120-130g protein, maintaining around ~2000 cals total, but I do prefer to eat more for dinner and skimp the rest of the day. Cause I like dinner.
I'm not obese but not super lean either. BMI 22. Not an advanced athlete or one that has many goals beyond keeping this interesting for myself (see above - buying of toys keeps me interested!) but maybe can try to get more protein in sooner after workout. Don't love shakes cause of the taste, but maybe need to revisit. Any good recommendations of protein shakes without Splenda/sucralose? Not opposed to artificial sweetener, just think splenda tastes like kitten.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaRJTVsUGzs&feature=youtu.be 1 -
^ Look at me reppin' myfitnesspal with mah shirt! Someone tell the owners so I can get sponsored or something... well ok then thanks.4
-
Haha I'll need one and an eat train progress shirt when I get to goal. Start working on that:).2
This discussion has been closed.