January Q and A thread
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Happy New Year.
I have a goal of bench pressing BW x 1.5 but have been stuck shy of that for all of 2016 - advice/guidance on how to break my plateau would be appreciated as I'm very goal driven and it frustrates the hell out of me!
Me: Age 56, maintaining weight at c. 77kg, bench goal 115.5kg, stuck at 3RM 100kg.
My technique is based on the Jennifer Thompson bench tutorial these days (used to bench flat backed) highest lifetime bench (decades ago) was 130kg.
My strength training is x3 a week and typically bench press twice a week with a barbell and once a week on a machine at my work gym which allegedly goes to 100kg but feels more like 90kg with a slight decline (but at least I can fail without pinning myself to the bench, my lift tends to fail at the bottom of the movement...).
I also have access to a plate loaded incline bench machine (TechnoGym) but rarely use it.
I train in a pyramid style and don't go lower than 3RM as that seems to help prevent injury. I know that's not ideal for hitting maximums but have an old supraspinatus tendon injury I need to avoid aggravating.
"Typical" barbell session would be:
50kg x 12 (warmup)
60kg x 10
70kg x 8
80kg x 6
90kg x 4
100kg x 3 very shaky reps
Any help appreciated.
Great post.
I have a lot of thoughts on this and I'm just leaving for the gym now but I'll reply a few times here as I chew on this, so to speak.
One criticism I have of pyramid training is that often times there's too much fatigue accumulation in the lower intensity sets and it negatively effect performance in the top set or sets.
I can't say for certain whether that's going on here, but I'd like to know the following from you:
a) Can you approximate the RPE or the number of reps in reserve (either language is fine) starting with the 60kg set and going all the way to the end?
b) Do you always do that set and rep scheme and then do you evaluate your progress based on the number of reps of the 100kg set?
What you've basically got here when we look at this in %rm is:
1x8@65%
1x6@75%
1x4@85%
1x3@92.5 to 95%
Anyway, I have some initial ideas here but I'd like to first hear your answers to my two questions about before suggesting how to modify the layout.
One criticism I have of pyramid training is that often times there's too much fatigue accumulation in the lower intensity sets and it negatively effect performance in the top set or sets.
Agree.
I seem to tolerate high volume quite well and my recovery between sets is good (high level cardio fitness probably helps). I increase the recovery time between sets as the weight progresses from virtually none to 3 mins before last set.
a ) Can you approximate the RPE or the number of reps in reserve (either language is fine) starting with the 60kg set and going all the way to the end?
Reps in reserve on a good day, I stop early on a bad gym day if I feel I've hit that day's max:
60kg x 10 - still warming up, 10 left?
70kg x 8 - 6 or 7
80kg x 6 - 4 or 5
90kg x 4 - 2 maybe 3.
100kg - nothing, safety bars in danger of being used (OK - I admit I have done the "wiggle of shame" a couple of times...)
b) Do you always do that set and rep scheme and then do you evaluate your progress based on the number of reps of the 100kg set?
It's not unusual to add a second 100kg set if I feel there's something left in the tank.
That's my most frequent style of strength work (workout typically is heavy compounds 2 push/2 pull upper body as the foundation then add either core work or accessory work or leg work).
I train in a circuit training style sometimes (still mostly compounds but alternating push/pull/upper/lower) and the bench component may be 10 x 10 but still ascending weight.
I am really looking for ultimate strength as my progress metric for bench and other upper body compounds.
Core work is all about strength endurance for me (I'm a long distance cyclist.)
Leg strength work is injury limited for weight and also limited to allow recovery from cycle training.
So here's one way you could attempt to set this up. Consider this as somewhat of napkin programming but I think this is likely to work well for you.
I'm going to list this in lbs instead of kg, hopefully that''s not too annoying. I'll assume 3 training days per week, I'll assume you're benching first as your main press movement (meaning, if you squat before that, fine, but I'm assuming you're not doing things like a tricep extension before benching which I doubt you would because you know better)
I'm going to outline this such that the TOP LINE is week 1 and each line below that is the next WEEK.
Day 1
4 x 8 @ 165
4 x 7 @ 170
4 x 6 @ 175
5 x 5 @ 180
5 x 4 @ 185
6 x 3 @ 195
Day 3
4 x 5 @ 180
5 x 4 @ 190
6 x 3 @ 200
6 x 2 @ 210
8 x 1 @ 220
Test AMRAP at 220 week 6
Skip all pressing movements on day 2 week 6 -- so basically whatever you do at your non benching gym in that middle session, skip pressing entirely for recovery and maybe take it easy on other stuff as well.
I would expect the first few weeks to be pretty easy although it's possible that even at the lower intensities you may still feel like this is a good amount of volume since you're doing straight sets across
For warmups I'll just list 1 example of how you could do this, lets assume it's Day 3 @ 180lbs
Empty bar 1 to 2 sets of 10+
95 x 8 (optional if you can go straight to 135)
135 x 6 - 8
155 x 4
170 x 1 to 2
180 working sets
Example for 220
Empty Bar 1 to 2 sets of 10+
95 x 8 (optional if you can go straight to 135)
135 x 6 - 8
155 x 4
175 x 1 to 2
190 x 1
205 x 1
220 working sets
The other thing I'd add to the above is that I'd expect the following things, or I'd recommend them:
1) On the middle day where you're at your non benching gym I'd keep rep ranges in the 6 to 15 range depending on the exercise and I'd make sure you're limiting it to about RPE 8 on most sets. Don't take pressing movements to failure and don't do an assload of volume.
2) On the main benching days I would expect your RPE on working sets to range between about 6 and 8 for most sets with the final sets being slightly more challenging, but I wouldn't expect you to be flirting with failure at all.
Let me know if you have questions, you're not obligated to run this just because I took the time to lay it out. I found this question interesting and I've been doing a lot of thinking about programming in the past few weeks so I felt compelled to crank this out -- no guarantees to others in this thread that I'll always do this to this level of detail but you're of course always welcome to ask.
That's really interesting and I will definitely give it a go.
I'm aware I'm a bit of a volume and failure junky so I'm fascinated to see how this works.
Definitely am obligated to try it - not just because it would be a waste of your time otherwise but also because what I'm doing isn't working anymore in terms of progression.
You are one of the real stars of myfitnesspal, many thanks.
Thanks
To elaborate on my second reply after I posted the sample program, keep RPE in mind and maybe consider logging it on each set. How many reps in reserve do I have?
Anything above about 3 reps in the tank becomes hard to identify. If you're still in this territory at the end of your LAST set it's probably too light (perhaps except for week 1).
So for example, if it's week 3 and you're regularly having 3+ reps left in reserve on your final set (and by extension I'd assume all previous sets too), you can probably go slightly heavier with the weight on the barbell. But if you do this I'd only go in minimal increments because we are talking about multiple sets of multiple reps at that load.
Likewise if you find you're VERY close to failure or AT failure on multiple sets, I would back down slightly on load. (RPE 9 or 1 rep in reserve on your final set is fine. RPE 10 on multiple sets is not desirable).
Just wanted to spell it out a bit more so that you understand how you might tweak this if my estimated loads are off, and they certainly could be off. Feel free to follow up and let me know in this thread for my own amusement if you'd like.
I'd bet that it will feel fairly light on week 1 and maybe week 2 but I would also GUESS that by the final set it will start to feel like you're doing a decent amount of volume since this is more volume at a higher %rm which is one of the objectives here.
Make sense?1 -
Makes perfect sense.
Notebook added to gym bag.
A light couple of weeks is probably a good idea anyway as I've been pushing hard recently.0 -
Monthly randomness:
1) I've seen you recommend belts and knee sleeves even to beginner lifters. Any particular brands or considerations into buying these?
2) How soon after workouts do I really need to eat, and how much am I harming things if I don't? I workout early in the AM (4:30 or 5 am), finish by 6, grab a cup of coffee on the way to work and then eat once I am at work. Usually try to get 20-30g protein in at that point. But sometimes that can be 9 am. Too long? Usually eat about half of my calories/protein for dinner.0 -
Monthly randomness:
1) I've seen you recommend belts and knee sleeves even to beginner lifters. Any particular brands or considerations into buying these?
2) How soon after workouts do I really need to eat, and how much am I harming things if I don't? I workout early in the AM (4:30 or 5 am), finish by 6, grab a cup of coffee on the way to work and then eat once I am at work. Usually try to get 20-30g protein in at that point. But sometimes that can be 9 am. Too long? Usually eat about half of my calories/protein for dinner.
Holy cow I just rambled for 7 minutes. Vid incoming0 -
I'm going to include cliffs for this one since it's probably TL;DR for most people lol
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Monthly randomness:
1) I've seen you recommend belts and knee sleeves even to beginner lifters. Any particular brands or considerations into buying these?
2) How soon after workouts do I really need to eat, and how much am I harming things if I don't? I workout early in the AM (4:30 or 5 am), finish by 6, grab a cup of coffee on the way to work and then eat once I am at work. Usually try to get 20-30g protein in at that point. But sometimes that can be 9 am. Too long? Usually eat about half of my calories/protein for dinner.
So here's my cliff notes/TLDR answer:
1) Inzer or bestbelts.net for belts. SBDs for knee sleeves. Consult sizing charts/recommendations on a per brand basis. For squat shoes, I like Sabo but I haven't used many different brands there.
2) Read this, it's amazing: https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-10-5
Shorter answer is "it depends". If you're training fasted, the postworkout meal is of increased importance. If you are eating a big meal beforehand, the postworkout meal timing is of lesser importance. Also depends on goals to some extent, and how advanced you are. Want to maximize your lbm? Nutrient timing and distribution matters at least somewhat.
Long rambly video that is still uploading:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO9mqvDpKaQ&feature=youtu.be
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Hey, that was awesome!! Hope a bunch of people watch it cause it was really useful!
Re: belts, yes I meant beginner = not lifting a ton of weight. Already have some Reebok crossfit shoes with a bit of a heel. Don't think my form is awful but need to get around to taking some videos.
Great article!
I do train fasted, on weekdays at least. Just a matter of timing - trying to get workout in before kids wake up at 6. Life is busy in the hours of 6-8:30 or 9, and I'm typically not super hungry, and would rather have calories at another time. I think my nutrition is overall pretty well managed - get 120-130g protein, maintaining around ~2000 cals total, but I do prefer to eat more for dinner and skimp the rest of the day. Cause I like dinner.
I'm not obese but not super lean either. BMI 22. Not an advanced athlete or one that has many goals beyond keeping this interesting for myself (see above - buying of toys keeps me interested!) but maybe can try to get more protein in sooner after workout. Don't love shakes cause of the taste, but maybe need to revisit. Any good recommendations of protein shakes without Splenda/sucralose? Not opposed to artificial sweetener, just think splenda tastes like kitten.0 -
Hey, that was awesome!! Hope a bunch of people watch it cause it was really useful!
Re: belts, yes I meant beginner = not lifting a ton of weight. Already have some Reebok crossfit shoes with a bit of a heel. Don't think my form is awful but need to get around to taking some videos.
Great article!
I do train fasted, on weekdays at least. Just a matter of timing - trying to get workout in before kids wake up at 6. Life is busy in the hours of 6-8:30 or 9, and I'm typically not super hungry, and would rather have calories at another time. I think my nutrition is overall pretty well managed - get 120-130g protein, maintaining around ~2000 cals total, but I do prefer to eat more for dinner and skimp the rest of the day. Cause I like dinner.
I'm not obese but not super lean either. BMI 22. Not an advanced athlete or one that has many goals beyond keeping this interesting for myself (see above - buying of toys keeps me interested!) but maybe can try to get more protein in sooner after workout. Don't love shakes cause of the taste, but maybe need to revisit. Any good recommendations of protein shakes without Splenda/sucralose? Not opposed to artificial sweetener, just think splenda tastes like kitten.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaRJTVsUGzs&feature=youtu.be 1 -
^ Look at me reppin' myfitnesspal with mah shirt! Someone tell the owners so I can get sponsored or something... well ok then thanks.4
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Haha I'll need one and an eat train progress shirt when I get to goal. Start working on that:).2
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I got my first workout today with my new Chuck Taylor Ox Bow shoes. Holy smokes, they rock! I've been lifting with regular tennis shoes for years, which when I got heavy squats meant my sessions would typically be limited, at least in part, to how well my knees held up.
Today, I didn't feel a thing, not a blessed thing, from my knees the entire squat/deadlift session. How blessed was that!2 -
Where on earth, and WHY on earth do you have a MFP shirt? UNSUBSCRIBE1
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Hey Patrick! Your client Jen here I just watched your first video reply to AigreDoux about nutrient timing. I match one of your scenarios (fairly lean and attempting a lean bulk) where you said you would want to see good pre- and post- workout nutrition. I currently do eat both before and after my workouts, but I'd be really interested to hear if you have any specific recommendations on macros and calories for each (quick reminder: current intake is ~2800 calories with 130g+ protein and typically 370-380g carbs). Maybe we can chat about this in our next call? Thanks! 0
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jenbob1985 wrote: »Hey Patrick! Your client Jen here I just watched your first video reply to AigreDoux about nutrient timing. I match one of your scenarios (fairly lean and attempting a lean bulk) where you said you would want to see good pre- and post- workout nutrition. I currently do eat both before and after my workouts, but I'd be really interested to hear if you have any specific recommendations on macros and calories for each (quick reminder: current intake is ~2800 calories with 130g+ protein and typically 370-380g carbs). Maybe we can chat about this in our next call? Thanks!jenbob1985 wrote: »Hey Patrick! Your client Jen here I just watched your first video reply to AigreDoux about nutrient timing. I match one of your scenarios (fairly lean and attempting a lean bulk) where you said you would want to see good pre- and post- workout nutrition. I currently do eat both before and after my workouts, but I'd be really interested to hear if you have any specific recommendations on macros and calories for each (quick reminder: current intake is ~2800 calories with 130g+ protein and typically 370-380g carbs). Maybe we can chat about this in our next call? Thanks!
Definitely
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Hey, that was awesome!! Hope a bunch of people watch it cause it was really useful!
Re: belts, yes I meant beginner = not lifting a ton of weight. Already have some Reebok crossfit shoes with a bit of a heel. Don't think my form is awful but need to get around to taking some videos.
Great article!
I do train fasted, on weekdays at least. Just a matter of timing - trying to get workout in before kids wake up at 6. Life is busy in the hours of 6-8:30 or 9, and I'm typically not super hungry, and would rather have calories at another time. I think my nutrition is overall pretty well managed - get 120-130g protein, maintaining around ~2000 cals total, but I do prefer to eat more for dinner and skimp the rest of the day. Cause I like dinner.
I'm not obese but not super lean either. BMI 22. Not an advanced athlete or one that has many goals beyond keeping this interesting for myself (see above - buying of toys keeps me interested!) but maybe can try to get more protein in sooner after workout. Don't love shakes cause of the taste, but maybe need to revisit. Any good recommendations of protein shakes without Splenda/sucralose? Not opposed to artificial sweetener, just think splenda tastes like kitten.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaRJTVsUGzs&feature=youtu.be
Thanks again!! A million!!
In regards to the protein powder thing, how important is 3rd party testing? I assume you are talking about an independent lab confirming that it actually has protein and not just random powder? There are some "organic" brands that use Stevia as a sweetener. (example - https://www.amazon.com/Orgain-Protein-Powder-Creamy-Chocolate/dp/B01AAFZYX2/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1483537197&sr=8-1&keywords=orgain+whey&th=1) but not sure how to see if they are tested.
Splenda is one of two foods I don't like. Had to stop drinking Diet Pepsi over it. Have one cousin with the same issue but everyone else seems to love it. Go figure.
Made overnight oats as per your suggestion last night. Just greek yogurt and plain oatmeal. Could only stomach 2 bites of that at 4:30. Ate another half of the bowl post workout between 6 and 6:30. Finishing it now (8:45). 37C/3F/28P. Will try this for a few weeks and see if I can notice a difference.
Does this apply to cardio as well? Some mornings I get up and run 3-5 miles, do I need to be as concerned about it on those days or not?1 -
Hey, that was awesome!! Hope a bunch of people watch it cause it was really useful!
Re: belts, yes I meant beginner = not lifting a ton of weight. Already have some Reebok crossfit shoes with a bit of a heel. Don't think my form is awful but need to get around to taking some videos.
Great article!
I do train fasted, on weekdays at least. Just a matter of timing - trying to get workout in before kids wake up at 6. Life is busy in the hours of 6-8:30 or 9, and I'm typically not super hungry, and would rather have calories at another time. I think my nutrition is overall pretty well managed - get 120-130g protein, maintaining around ~2000 cals total, but I do prefer to eat more for dinner and skimp the rest of the day. Cause I like dinner.
I'm not obese but not super lean either. BMI 22. Not an advanced athlete or one that has many goals beyond keeping this interesting for myself (see above - buying of toys keeps me interested!) but maybe can try to get more protein in sooner after workout. Don't love shakes cause of the taste, but maybe need to revisit. Any good recommendations of protein shakes without Splenda/sucralose? Not opposed to artificial sweetener, just think splenda tastes like kitten.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaRJTVsUGzs&feature=youtu.be
Thanks again!! A million!!
In regards to the protein powder thing, how important is 3rd party testing? I assume you are talking about an independent lab confirming that it actually has protein and not just random powder? There are some "organic" brands that use Stevia as a sweetener. (example - https://www.amazon.com/Orgain-Protein-Powder-Creamy-Chocolate/dp/B01AAFZYX2/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1483537197&sr=8-1&keywords=orgain+whey&th=1) but not sure how to see if they are tested.
Splenda is one of two foods I don't like. Had to stop drinking Diet Pepsi over it. Have one cousin with the same issue but everyone else seems to love it. Go figure.
Made overnight oats as per your suggestion last night. Just greek yogurt and plain oatmeal. Could only stomach 2 bites of that at 4:30. Ate another half of the bowl post workout between 6 and 6:30. Finishing it now (8:45). 37C/3F/28P. Will try this for a few weeks and see if I can notice a difference.
Does this apply to cardio as well? Some mornings I get up and run 3-5 miles, do I need to be as concerned about it on those days or not?
That's basically what I'm referring to with 3rd party testing. At the very least, go with a reputable brand.
I wouldn't be as concerned about nutrient timing with respect to cardio -- or at least I'd consider it of slightly lesser importance.0 -
jenbob1985 wrote: »...current intake is ~2800 calories...
Looking like that with 2800 calories?!? #jealous
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As per the other thread, Ive started with your version of 5/3/1 this week.
When I started lifting (20 months back) I was doing Stronglifts 5x5, and when I deviated from that I continued with a 5x5 approach.
I am finding the accessory work on 5/3/1, being sets of 10, exhausting!
Im taking longer breaks between sets, and may consider lowering the weight a bit if I dont adapt (still preferring to complete a cycle first and evaluate then), but was wondering if there are any other tips to dealing with/adapting to the extra volume.
For example, squats today, 4 x 10 x 52.5kg.
I can knock out sets of 5 all day long, no problem. First set of 10 and I was feeling it!
I did all 4, but I knew I had been in the gym at that pont
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I have a question on Butt Wink
I have noticed that when I am squatting using the high bar style that I get quite a bit of butt wink before I even hit parallel. I have tried adjusting my stances from narrow to wide and even tried pushing out my knees slightly further. This has only marginally decreased the point where butt wink occurs.
Would this be chalked up to having poor moblilty? ie being very very stiff (Could not resist it) or would I need some more refinement on my squat technique? 0
