Thoughts, Epiphanies, Insights, & Quotables
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Although I’m 25 lbs. short of goal, I’ve been pretty successful maintaining loss. I’m kind of a pragmatist on doing what is necessary to keep a healthier me. Yes I’ve had people give me “looks” when I’ve gone to restaurants or social functions. Even lost friends who no longer enjoy going out to eat with me because I make them feel guilty. Honestly I don’t make any fuss or ask for impossible changes. I just try to work around what’s available.
If I was an athlete in training no one would question my eating habits. But somehow trying to maintain weight or be healthier is considered frivolous and quirky. It’s not considered a serious problem and something to be ignored socially. Would you ask someone with a peanut allergy to try just one? Or urge a diabetic to load up on sweets?
However, I DO have a medical problem (obesity) that requires constant work to control. I’ll do whatever I need to do to stay well.
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I'ma thinking on this one. Thinking about where I think the line is.2
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And it is a good question … a brave retelling of his experience on the forums…I wonder where the “line” as Laurie puts it is and where the good practice of caring for oneself with an illness as Youly puts it, really is.
I ‘ve seen loads of young people with what I would classify anorexia, bulemia & binge eating. Heard heart aching stories from yp & parents. Some accepted into ED services, some not - “ not reaching the criteria… can baffle me, but sometimes I have to tell myself I get too close!
I suppose it is a question of when the relationship with food & exercise is “too” extreme, affecting your family and social relationships.
Hey, though, who hasn’t experienced disordered eating to some extent as an obese person?
I know I have. Tried ridiculously silly diets in my time.2 -
Hey, though, who hasn’t experienced disordered eating to some extent as an obese person?
I know I have. Tried ridiculously silly diets in my time.
I certainly have experienced disordered eating and obsessive exercising in the past.
I remember one particular occasion really vividly, when I was about 22....I'd lost about 35kg in a little over 6 months through a ridiculously restrictive diet (skipping breakfast and eating just garden peas with vinegar and dried apricots for both lunch and dinner). I was also walking and cycling about 250kms a week. Crazy. On the occasion in question, I went with my then boyfriend to the university observatory to view some planetary wonder that was only visible in the early hours, and walking back home at 4am, he dug a sandwich and packet of crisps from his bag and offered me a crisp. Because it was 4am and I was hungry, tired and off-guard, I took the crisp unthinkingly and bit off a little, then realised what I was doing and spat it out again and burst into tears because I felt like I'd undone months of hard work.
I've never forgotten it. To be that rigid about my diet that a fragment of crisp felt like I'd derailed all my months of effort. That was a real low point.3 -
Perhaps the line between caring for yourself and downright obsessive behavior is living by absolute rules and nevers. Maybe having a bit of self deprecating good humor? If you’ve crossed the line maybe you no longer can laugh a little about your own self imposed rules?
The people I’ve met with ED tend to be pretty humorless about eating - some with forbidden foods, crazy limitations, combinations or restrictions. That includes militant obese folks who refuse to deny themselves anything and pride themselves on quantity eating. It’s deadly serious on both ends.3 -
I will add that if there is past history (or un manifested potentiality) large deficits by themselves can actually act as a trigger! <-- Another reason for "my" 25% of TDEE max (20% while no longer high overweight) "rule".
Would love to hear from all the others!
It *is* something to think about, right? In many ways we engage in behaviors that would be considered abnormal by others.
The number of people who tell me they have (what Yooly calls) "absolute rules" about food and eating but categorically refuse to count calories because "that's too much work", or "too intense", or "too much trouble", or "too much for me" is eye popping.
I believe "a" line is definitely if you evaluate where you're at and decide that you're somewhere where "this" is causing you more distress than benefit... and yet you feel "powerless"/"unwilling"/"unable" to change "this".
BUT, it HAS been more than 35 years since I looked at a psych textbook and I don't think I got an A either... so maybe more peops can chime in!!??!?!?2 -
I dunno….I have a sense of humor and I over eat…..
my doctor said he has so many overweight patients who say they can’t understand why they are fat because they don’t eat anything!…he told me at least I am honest and admit I eat way too much…
The longer I have been on MFP I am finding that it is easier to stay on track if I just don’t even taste the foods I can’t handle, especially sweets…once I get a taste, it’s all over….
I have dieted since I was in my teens….losing and gaining, meds, carbs, calories, clubs….been there…
I have come to the realization that I have a very serious eating disorder….I have had it most of my life….I don’t know why I do…of course I have vague ideas why I am obsessed with food but no concrete facts why…to be perfectly honest I still think that someday I can eat like a normal person or that I can eat whatever I want and not gain weight!…( yeah, right! )…. It is delusion….I will never be able to consume massive amounts of food without gaining weight and I won’t magically wake up skinny one day!…this is a hard fact to come to grips with….
Dieting is hard….being overweight is hard….choose your hard!…..
I have to be conscious of what I eat every single day all day long…it is a cold hard fact…I know I am walking on a treacherous path between being healthy and killing myself with food….some days are easier than others but it is always a battle mentally and emotionally and physically….
I get so tired of it all sometimes…the endless battle…but I know how much better I feel physically when I eat right and weigh less….emotionally and mentally I feel deprived…I feel punished….hopefully these feelings will go away a little as I lose more weight…
I know I am certifiable….4 -
This is one reason I know I need to take a few successful maintenance breaks this year…I have got to learn that I don’t always have to eat at a deficit…I have never maintained my entire life…I either eat too much or I diet….
The end.2 -
Connie - I'm right there with you. Trying to figure out the best way to move forward in a way that will achieve optimum health is not easy. Partly because of the "dieting causes disordered eating" arguments.
Those arguments are correct. I have no doubt. But. Being overweight is a killer. We are fighting against basic survival instincts, some of us seem to have stronger survival instincts/systems then others? Physiologically and psychologically. But there seems to be very few official support systems that are savvy to both and legitimately trying to work through the dilemna (other than our PAV!)
And then there is the "food addiction" (ie sugar/carbs) that I am certain of too. Dealing with addiction does require rigid rules. Though I always hope that there will be a day when occasional treats are possible. But we don't suggest an ex smoker have an occasional cigarette or that a non-drinking alcoholic have an occasional glass of champagne to celebrate.
The freakin' hamsters are in there working away at their jobs to keep us alive despite obvious signs of famine and the little addicted ones are screaming for their fix.4 -
I will add that if there is past history (or un manifested potentiality) large deficits by themselves can actually act as a trigger! <-- Another reason for "my" 25% of TDEE max (20% while no longer high overweight) "rule".
I think a past history of disordered behaviour is a red flag, but it can also be a beneficial source of wisdom and self-knowledge. Maybe I'm woefully naive, but I think a leopard can change its spots and you can teach an old dog new tricks. Some folks are quick studies, and never repeat past mistakes. Some folks learn eventually, but it takes a while and repeated falls from the wagon for the lessons to embed in their thick skulls. Other folks never ever learn, no matter how many times they repeat the harmful behaviour.
I'm cautiously optimistic that I'm in the middle category. I've tried-succeeded-failed-tried again-tried something different-succeeded-failed-tried something different-tried-failed-succeeded-failed...so many times, that a pessimist would say that I'm beyond hope.
Instead, I think that every previous attempt has taught me something....and the layers of knowledge have gradually accumulated and over time have become foundational bedrock. One of the things I've learned is that I'll never attain perfection. Another? That perfection doesn't matter. A third? That it's better to travel hopefully than to arrive, if 'arrival' leads to complacency and regain. A fourth? That the process MUST be enjoyable. A fifth? That resolve/willpower/determination/motivation are all built on sand - they pale into insignificance next to enjoyment, curiosity and making the process as easy and painless as possible....
So many lessons accrued over the years...learned...lost...re-memembered and re-learned all over again. That's what makes this process so fascinating and interesting...
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Oh I hope, Bella.
I thought I had a good handle on things - alas, it has all started slipping away. There is one (significant I hope) difference this time. I'm staying here, and trying to figure out a workable solution - despite "losing" the eating battle most days.
Somewhere I want to insert "survival instincts" though the context might not be quite right because I'm blending two aspects into one? Maybe something along the lines of:That resolve/willpower/determination/motivation are all built on sand - they pale into insignificance next to enjoyment, curiosity and making the process as easy and painless as possible....
That resolve/willpower/determination/motivation are all built on sand - they pale into insignificance next to inherent survival instincts and possible food addictions and their importance on the weight loss/healthy weight management journey pales into insignificance next to enjoyment, curiosity and making the process easy and painless as possible....
Everyday I too learn a little more that I can put in my arsenal for future.
Everyday I appreciate myself a bit more rather than simply loathe myself for screwing up.
Hopefully that will = success. Perhaps success will look different than what I expect? I don't know. I'm a student still.
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So, as is normal, we are diverging a bit. But it's all good
Laurie do remember that I only have n=1, myself, as an experimental participant, plus the people I hear about on the boards. Plus some level of personal involvement, observation, investment, and care.
Professionals do have more resources they can tap and personally see a wider variety of people. But they are probably less personally invested/involved. And may have professional limits or guidelines to what they can tackle.
Anyway.
One observation I made many many years ago was the number of people who are strong, strong willed, and determined and who swear they will never regain the weight they lost at hard cost. And yet.... right?
So were they all week willed? Somehow, knowing some of them as the definition of stubborn -- no they were not.
Therefore, 🤔, there must be something going on that can overwhelm the most stubborn of the stubborn 🐹s.
Some light reading later, the 🐹😎 team concluded that there must be hormones and neurotransmitters! Perturbed and out of whack. Remember teenagers? You don't control hormones, they control you and you might barely influence!
The rest became improv on how to balance results (which require a deficit) with least out of whackness and perturbing of said hormones and neurotransmitters to reduce impetus for rebound and survive one, then two, then three, then five years.
There is some protection and suppression even some feel good so we can continue to function while losing.
So I'm all in for taking it down at a semi reasonable rate (and I still believe your tdee determines your safe rate) as long as your body is cooperating.
But after that you have to play the fish on your line and slowly work your weight towards normal and maintenance.
The analogy breaks because big movements are definitely not wanted during that phase.... flatten the curve. Act immediately but with the smallest reasonable intervention to reverse.
I blew up three real lbs (unlikely, but ok) over the three day holiday. fine. We will proceed with a 150 Cal a day 66 to 90 day plan to fix!🐹🤔
Garfield. You're still at a small deficit physiologically. I honestly do not think this is a bad spot for you. By hook and by crook we will keep you at a splat state and play for time till most people you meet will not even know you were ever obese. The more embedded the new state. The more tools you have. The more good it is!
Remember my downstairs with the baklava? They don't/ didn't really believe that I was showing them real pictures. They thought it was a relative.
Laurie too. You're not describing something that has never happened to most of us. I really like your plan to set a small deficit to aim for. But maybe a touch of panic to stop any upswings? Instead of logging after, how about logging before you eat it? Will it make it awkward to overeat with friends who are offering you yummy foods and outings? YES, it will!!!!1 -
But I like instant gratification!….2
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One observation I made many many years ago was the number of people who are strong, strong willed, and determined and who swear they will never regain the weight they lost at hard cost. And yet.... right?
Been there got the t-shirt. And that, right there, is why I will never, ever again say 'I will never be obese ever again.' That level of self-assurance/confidence/optimism/complacency/hubris....gone forever. I absolutely think I could be back above 95kgs one day. All it takes is one long, sustained slide, of which I am a past-master.
The best I can hope for is to use these precious months of feeling in control wisely. To use them to firmly embed as many positive habits and behaviours as I can; to build and reinforce my support networks; to learn and understand my triggers; to put in place layer upon layer upon layer of safety nets - the people/habits/strategies that will dependably attempt to arrest my slide and support me while I'm flailing...Remember teenagers? You don't control hormones, they control you and you might barely influence!
Yeah, but don't forget that teenagers were a 1950s invention. As my mother never tired of telling me, when she was a girl youngsters weren't "allowed" hormones. Moodiness? Surliness? Cheek? You should be so lucky.... one sour face and you'd feel the back of grandad's hand...
Folks of my ma's generation would say we're too soft these days. We need to show those 🐹🐹🐹 who's boss... I can just hear my mother: You acted badly why exactly? 'Cos you were controlled by anarchistic guerilla rodents? That's why you couldn't help yourself? Yeah, right. Good luck telling that to the hanging judge...
Now I'm not saying I agree with mom (you absolutely don't want to hear her views on PTSD, ADHD, panic attacks, gender fluidity, autism to name just a handful of areas where her views were out of the dark ages - all shades of 'attention-seeking' according to mom...)...but I am arguing a little that we are NOT mere marionettes dancing to the tune of rodent puppeteers. We have choices. We have tools. We CAN attain mastery....4 -
I'm a chicken 🐹.
Like you, even today, I don't claim it is impossible.
I would like to make it impossible.
Hence the layers, onions, rearguards, backups, and still...
So being more of a 🐔 or is it 🐓 🐹, I would rather NOT test the battle of the subconscious/unconscious. I see how many calories I can down when cold and tired and/or agitated or discombobulated especially at 4:00am!🐹
The less fuel behind that... the better!
But, I would also not call myself disciplined ever.
So I don't doubt that there's a level of 🐹 management that I can only aspire to. Funnily enough it is always girls that have that!!!😘😎1 -
Have you never contemplated being tucked up in bed, warm, snug and snoring at 4am?
Maybe therein lies at least a part of the solution to your undisciplined 🐹🐹🐹s.
Is there any work-related reason why you MUST stay awake into the early hours? Do you work nights? Or am I just being horrendously insensitive because you suffer from chronic insomnia? If so, I apologise. I've never heard you mention insomnia, so I'm not being deliberately offensive. I'd consider myself a night owl, but 4am seems a tad unusual for those that have a choice...2 -
Instead of logging after, how about logging before you eat it?
On my good days - that is what I do. Or at least I choose a meal that I have logged so many times I know I have a handle on it.
Getting back into the swing of things after COVID times/surgery armlessness, there is so much more pressure and so much more work that, as is usually the case with self-employed work from home people, hasn't not done me any favours. It is always feast or famine - and right now is "feast" but some days there isn't enough time to breath. I will adapt though.
Putting that time aside for meal prep is really important. The pulling stuff from the freezer doesn't seem as effective for me - the too quick meal doesn't seem to sink is as well as the meal that comes as a result of some time spent preparing/cooking. More of that mystery that I would do better to acknowledge and integrate into my day rather than questioning the logic of it
You, PAV, and this group, help tremendously!2 -
I Minister to the needs of unruly and recalcitrant Turing machine inspired devices
The needs of their hamsters 🐹 are better met when there's no people around, unless of course it is the people who are calling because of their own failed relationships with the devices. Technically it's a candle and it has two ends.... and a muddle or was that middle 😡🤬😘
I'm sure that a smart girl would shoehorn both my time management feet into one shoe... but since the one who selected me is far away I get to stray and stare at a mouse and click away till just this one more thing finishes 🤔🤣😹
It's really the worse if at a site, in winter, where heating has been turned down, and driving back early morning. That's usually 3000 Cal 🤷🏻♂️🤬
Most of the time I can remote, but then reefer pup swats me and insists that every 24 hours she gets to go out no matter what even if morning pre rush hour is starting! 🤔🤷🏻♂️3 -
Time to work out how to be near the smart girl. Can’t let opportunity for self improvement pass you by?❣️3
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Well said Yooly.
Time waits for no one....2 -
Hey Garfield since you're up you get a quarter vote equal to grumpy as to which route we will drive! Down to Lethbridge and then crowsnest pass and number three towards Vancouver, or up towards Calgary and number one?
The other thing is way too complicated since it involves established lives and people not necessarily willing to leave and not yet retired plus more than 32 hours flying per trip3 -
Ain’t no mountain high enough, ain’t no valley low enough....2
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Ain't no ocean deep enough....
I vote Crowsnest Pass!2 -
Crows nest pass gets my vote too, just because I love the name.4
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If I was an athlete in training no one would question my eating habits. But somehow trying to maintain weight or be healthier is considered frivolous and quirky. It’s not considered a serious problem and something to be ignored socially. Would you ask someone with a peanut allergy to try just one? Or urge a diabetic to load up on sweets?
Reminds me of a funny-ish story.
Back in 2016 my best friend was pretty ill for a while and they ran loads of tests during a week-long hospital stay....turns out she had gallstones, which was what was causing her nausea and heart-attack symptoms. But they also diagnosed her with T2 diabetes and coeliac disease....so a dietary double whammy. She had her gallbladder removed, completely cleaned up her eating habits and lost about 30kg...which loss she has maintained for over 5 years now.
Couple of weeks ago she went to her GP and in the course of general chat she mentioned her diabetes and coeliac disease. He looked puzzled and said he didn't recall that from her records...and she said to me: 'And I suddenly thought oh *kitten*, of course I don't really have diabetes and coeliac!'
So she had to 'fess up to her GP that she's been telling everyone - including her husband! And me, her best friend! - for SIX WHOLE YEARS that she's diabetic and coeliac when really she isn't. For the reasons alluded to by Yooly - so no one would keep trying to force sweet things / baked goods on her when she'd already politely declined them. She said it was just so much easier to say she had medical conditions than to constantly explain that she was trying to improve her diet.
Thing I found most interesting was that she said she told the GP she was diabetic/coeliac because she'd told the fib so many times that it had become truth for her. She'd literally managed to lie successfully to herself!
I found that so fascinating....that, if you tell yourself a lie enough times -with absolute conviction - and reinforce that lie with the lifestyle changes that shore up that lie...that you can convince yourself it's the truth.
I say it's a funny-ish story because I thought it was wholly funny until I remembered the sweat and tears I'd poured into meals over the years to accommodate her diabetes and gluten intolerance...4 -
Yup. I'm aware. Even more so than front loading calories to the day. Both things I don't do.2
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This comes as no surprise. Too bad that a good sleep takes so long!3
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I've been thinking of lifestyle infrastructure changes today. How far would I go / what would I be willing to change to create the optimal conditions for health and fitness?
I've struggled to maintain a healthy weight my whole life, but at times it didn't actually stop me from being fit and healthy. Once I'd left home to go to University, I only used motorised transport (inter-city coach) to travel to/from Norwich to Birmingham to visit my family. For everything else, I either walked or cycled, regardless of distance/weather/motivation/energy levels. If I couldn't get to where I wanted/needed to go either on foot or by bike, I didn't go. Simple as that. It influenced the places I rented, the jobs I accepted, the holidays I went on, the purchases I contemplated (because this was the days before ubiquitous delivery firms).
At 24 I learned to drive and bought a car. Worst thing I ever did from a health viewpoint. Utility walking and cycling took a back seat to driving. I still 'went for a walk/bike ride', but I only clocked up about a twentieth of the miles I'd customarily walked/cycled before I got the car. My fitness nosedived. My weight started its inexorable upward climb.
Knowing this, would I sell the car to force myself back onto two feet/two wheels? Jeeze....that's a toughie!
Some folks are willing to make drastic changes. When my ex-neighbour took early retirement, he sold his house and moved to Easdale, a car-free island off the west coast of Scotland, to force himself to get fitter. Now he's reliant on walking, rowing and cycling for all his transportation needs. Sometimes he regrets the move, but mainly he's pretty glad he made the change.
Last February my 37 y/o sedentary, overweight neice had a mild coronary. It forced her to face up to some unpalatable truths. Four months later she'd resigned her well paid upper-management role and got a job as a postie for Royal Mail. Her first day's 27,000 steps were nearly the death of her, but a year later she loves the job and is the fittest she's ever been...
In 2018 an ex-work colleague with morbid obesity sold her city-centre house which was surrounded by fast-food outlets and 24-hour convenience stores and bought a small rural smallholding seven miles from the nearest shop. For a couple of years she felt she'd made the worst mistake of her life, but now she loves the hard work and self-sufficiency and wouldn't return to city living for a king's ransom.
If the infrastructure of your life promotes health you have a better chance of being healthy. If the infrastructure promotes poor choices, you have less chance of being healthy. I wonder what I'd be prepared to do to optimise my health....
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Interesting thoughts Bella. I think that really depends on an individual’s definition of health since I imagine we all have our own thoughts and feelings around what that means based on life experience and values.
For example, I don’t see a world where I could be “healthy” if living in an urban area. I place a high value on things within my environment that are primarily out of my control — assurances of clean air, lack of noise and light pollution, for example. Seeking those things are within my control and something I sought as soon as I was on my own. However, I opted for things like lower pay and fewer upward career movement opportunities, in order to walk out my door every morning to fill my lungs with fresh air and “touch grass” every day. This does come with trade offs though things like: over an hour drive to medical care that I have confidence in, limited availability of consumables /groceries (one full service grocery store with 45 minutes)… ultimately less instant gratification and variety in life for lack of a better reference.
In an urban area, I could do all the active habits to be healthy - eat right, exercise, etc. and have greater access to services that’d help adapt the more human biological need but feel like losing the piece of mind I get from my environment would outweigh them. If I hit a point in life where a significant problem forced an environmental change, I’d have to do a lot of soul searching.3
