Experiments, tests, trying things out..
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Bella_Figura
Posts: 4,134 Member
I couldn't find a thread devoted to posts about experimenting to see if something works for you or not...so I thought I'd start one.
Is anyone else in the group experimenting with something different at the moment? If so, what are you learning about yourself?
I've mentioned a few times in other threads that fear of hunger has led me to some dysfunctional behaviour in the past, so I'm experimenting with allowing myself to feel hunger so that I can learn to become more familiar with it and hopefully develop some better strategies for dealing with it.
Amongst the weight management community there seems to be a lot of fear and avoidance of hunger - and probably with good reason, because hunger erodes willpower and can lead to poor eating choices, bingeing etc...But controlled hunger can be...well, controlled, right? And that's surely a good thing? So that you control hunger, rather than the other way around.
I've been experimenting with hunger for about 6 weeks now, and I'm beginning to get fully familiar with it. I'm probably genuinely, acutely hungry for 2 hours before breakfast, and again for 2-3 hours before dinner. Not constantly, because hunger swells, peaks, crests, then recedes for a while, then swells, peaks, crests, recedes again...but definitely off-and-on for a sustained period of a few hours every day. And at other times of the day I'm mildly hungry, unless I've literally eaten within the past hour or two.
So far it hasn't led to any out-of-control eating. I've been eating my regular meals, and that's been fine. Two nights ago I was unusually, acutely hungry before bed, but I rode it out...and on reflection that was maybe a mistake, because I lay in bed hungry for a good few hours before I could fall asleep. I debated getting up to eat something, but didn't....I'd probably have slept better if I had. But in the morning, I was no hungrier than usual...which is to say, I was hungry, but not ravenous.
I do seem to be hungrier than usual this past 6 weeks or so.....is this the dreaded ghrelin going into overdrive? Who knows? I'm monitoring the situation...if it gets really bothersome I'll increase something - my calorie budget or my portion sizes - because I don't believe in being miserable. But for now I'm not feeling miserable...hunger isn't too bad actually....in fact, it's much less uncomfortable than being over-full. But I do wonder if this extra hunger is ghrelin-related, because I'm eating the same amount of calories and roughly the same volume of food/same meals/same portion sizes as I was 2 months ago, but I'm appreciably hungrier. In fact, until I started this experiment I hadn't really experienced hunger at all...but now I'm feeling (mildly or acutely) hungry almost all the time.
In fact, come to think of it, I think my impetus for starting this experiment in the first place was because I suddenly started feeling more hungry, and it made me feel unsettled and fearful.
Is anyone else in the group experimenting with something different at the moment? If so, what are you learning about yourself?
I've mentioned a few times in other threads that fear of hunger has led me to some dysfunctional behaviour in the past, so I'm experimenting with allowing myself to feel hunger so that I can learn to become more familiar with it and hopefully develop some better strategies for dealing with it.
Amongst the weight management community there seems to be a lot of fear and avoidance of hunger - and probably with good reason, because hunger erodes willpower and can lead to poor eating choices, bingeing etc...But controlled hunger can be...well, controlled, right? And that's surely a good thing? So that you control hunger, rather than the other way around.
I've been experimenting with hunger for about 6 weeks now, and I'm beginning to get fully familiar with it. I'm probably genuinely, acutely hungry for 2 hours before breakfast, and again for 2-3 hours before dinner. Not constantly, because hunger swells, peaks, crests, then recedes for a while, then swells, peaks, crests, recedes again...but definitely off-and-on for a sustained period of a few hours every day. And at other times of the day I'm mildly hungry, unless I've literally eaten within the past hour or two.
So far it hasn't led to any out-of-control eating. I've been eating my regular meals, and that's been fine. Two nights ago I was unusually, acutely hungry before bed, but I rode it out...and on reflection that was maybe a mistake, because I lay in bed hungry for a good few hours before I could fall asleep. I debated getting up to eat something, but didn't....I'd probably have slept better if I had. But in the morning, I was no hungrier than usual...which is to say, I was hungry, but not ravenous.
I do seem to be hungrier than usual this past 6 weeks or so.....is this the dreaded ghrelin going into overdrive? Who knows? I'm monitoring the situation...if it gets really bothersome I'll increase something - my calorie budget or my portion sizes - because I don't believe in being miserable. But for now I'm not feeling miserable...hunger isn't too bad actually....in fact, it's much less uncomfortable than being over-full. But I do wonder if this extra hunger is ghrelin-related, because I'm eating the same amount of calories and roughly the same volume of food/same meals/same portion sizes as I was 2 months ago, but I'm appreciably hungrier. In fact, until I started this experiment I hadn't really experienced hunger at all...but now I'm feeling (mildly or acutely) hungry almost all the time.
In fact, come to think of it, I think my impetus for starting this experiment in the first place was because I suddenly started feeling more hungry, and it made me feel unsettled and fearful.
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There is no question in MY mind that I've started to become more attune to body signals once I started paying more attention to them. That can be both good and bad, of course. Our individual make-up, frame of mind, and the resultant approach to the experiment all play into this. I've definitely noticed at least a correlation among people who post and who have lost and more, or less, maintained their loss, that a noticeable (to me, possibly because of echo-chamber effects) sub-section has mentioned experimenting/being willing to experiment (and adjusting) as part of the process.
Not experimenting with anything much right now. My last big experiment was the addition of strategic small amounts of fat to food choices and the realization that while I do enjoy larger portions (hence large portion of low caloric density items) the internal calculator hamsters can also be satisfied in terms of actual hunger with a small portion of more calorically dense stuff. It is just the hedonistic give me more and more and more hamsters that insist on, well, more!
Those and the venting emotions of agitation/annoyance/anger/perturbation hamsters that often resort to continuous consumption of calories as a way of externalizing!
Let's see what all the other mad scientists come up with though!
Looking forward to it! 3 -
I am experimenting with new ideas to keep from binge eating….I am 10 lbs over my lowest weight because of binging and bad choices..l.my doctor has been very supportive throughout my weight loss but he will soon be leaving his office…he has suggested staying more hydrated,sleeping more,breathing exercises to calm myself and trying to eat breakfast plus upping my calories but still stay in a deficit….so far so good….some of you know the last few months have been a very stressful time for me worrying about my husbands health….he is doing much better since the spinal surgery….hoping for more relief as he heals….yesterday we celebrated 46 years of marriage….I am sorry I haven’t been more present or supportive here..l.welcome to all kne members….I look forward to continuing this journey with you…older members, thank you for keeping this wonderful group going!2
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Hey Connie almost missed that part!: 46 years ❤️
Inspiration ❣️
Sincere congratulations 🎉3 -
There is no question in MY mind that I've started to become more attune to body signals once I started paying more attention to them.
I'm an idiot. I thought I was attuned to my body signals too, but I completely overlooked the fact that for the first 27 weeks I wasn't hungry at all, then I took a 2 week deficit break, followed by two further weeks of not being hungry and then WHAM! Non-stop raging hunger from week 31 onwards.
But it never occurred to me that this was ghrelin/metabolic-adaption-related hunger. I think I was assuming that wouldn't make an appearance until later in the process, when I was transitioning to maintenance. I was bracing myself for the maelstrom to come, without realising I was already enduring the maelstrom!
Which means that instead of this being a simple experiment to try to get more used to hunger, it's actually 'the-great-hunger-endurance-and-management-without-eating-everything-in-sight-experiment'.
Jeeze, am I going to be insanely hungry forever?!?!3 -
Bella_Figura wrote: »Jeeze, am I going to be insanely hungry forever?!?!
In answer to my own question, the answer would appear to be 'Yes': https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpendo.00322.2017
I guess I better carry on working on my managment and coping strategies...
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But logically I know I am not hungry. Just had breakfast and not expending lots of exercise calories so why the hunger. I’ve read through some of the journal article but there’s no reason WHY.
Maybe it’s a lifetime of conditioning to want to feel Uber full, stress, emotions or bad habits. Grehlin gremlins? Today I’m crazy hungry because the day started with oatmeal. Carbs seem to make me insanely hungry all day. I’d have been better served with a nice omelette.4 -
No you will NOT be hungry forever. For real.
Chances are incredibly high that same as with most people who maintain their loss, a year or two down the road (I believe that Dalon, who in the course of trying to manage his transition to maintenance ended up doing way more research than I've ever done, mentioned something around half the time you were in deficit) you will wake up and discover that if you've continued to eat at maintenance all these continuous urges will have diminished and gone away.
This is just about the best that I can offer you and for which I had found scant evidence at the time, hence my determination to ease the hit as much as possible.
But over time either the levels come up, or you actually get used to them as your new normal, or a combination. But the hormonal impetus does subside and it is not at all (wherever it is that I find myself today) the same as it was right after major, or even right after a minor weight loss (my 2020 3-5lbs down/5-8 lbs up swing due to not respecting this sufficiently given the infinitely smaller degree of change: 3-5 not 125, right?😹)
So don't worry Garfield, it will eventually straighten. But I would definitely take advantage of and extreme care during diet break. You will have to eat by the numbers as opposed to free for all, even if you assign enough calories to be at an actual maintenance (my eye ball was that based on activity your plan was still a deficit. But that is just an eyeball reaction coloured by my own much higher numbers given height and gender)2 -
Gosh, I hope you're right Gimpy!
If endless hunger was the price I had to pay for long term maintenance then I'd suck it up and pay it, because it's better than the alternative....but I'd like to think there was light at the end of the tunnel after a couple of years!
S'funny...when I told myself I was 'experimenting with getting comfortable with hunger' it almost felt like being hungry was a game, because I felt like I could quit at any time. But after reading that study this morning suddenly it didn't feel fun being hungry any more. It was like 'holy crap, is this how I'm going to feel forever?!?'
And my hamsters immediately took advantage of my feeling of being under siege to stick the boot with their sneaky little mind games. I've been engaged in whack-a-hamster all day, but those little dudes are well-dug in!
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Hey, I whacked my Victoria sponge / Bavarian cream hamster, so you will whack your hamsters too!
@Yoolypr mentioned strategic eating and, in my opinion, she's right!
The base of the pyramid and the whole edifice is predicated on achieving the desired caloric balances.
The calories come first (again my opinion); before the attributes of nutrient content and quality.
Far from saying that they're not important. Of course they are.
But the high percentage play for health comes more immediately from achieved weight management and if it takes omelette or plain eggs as opposed to rocket infused oatmeal, I will vote for eggs all the time!
Management only stops when we give up.
Remember the posts from @NovusDies ?
While we can never control and guarantee that we will never find ourselves in circumstances where we may end up giving up, taking pains to ensure that we try to keep things as easy as we can given our current circumstances (thus reducing any impetus to give up) is always a good percentage play as far as I'm concerned.
So give that doubting hamster another whack on the head and consider that you're still doing beyond good.
Engage in some strategic eating of things that will fill you up and / or generally satisfy you and keep on celebrating and going!
And @Yoolypr don't be scared to deviate intentionally. Have a couple of eggs as a snack and adjust dinner or end up having a maintenance day.
A maintenance day, imho, is better than settings up an uncontrolled eating episode by over pushing.
Some pushing is necessary for sure. But I try to save most of my ammunition for use near the boundary of +/- 100 around maintenance. (Size of individual boundaries would depend on how closely weight behavior reflects ongoing estimates)3 -
Yep, agree with Gimpy and Yooly that the calorie deficit is king. I'll sacrifice balanced nutrition on the altar of calorie deficit every time. But.....I'm wondering if eating a bit more protein and fibre would mitigate some of the raging hunger. Maybe it's coincidence, but my 24/7 hunger seems to date to around the same time when I took my eye off my fibre intake and that particular plate didn't just stop spinning, it set off a plate-smashing chain reaction that would do CCCGG's compatriots proud.
Maybe I'll start aiming for 30g/day of fibre again and see if that helps...
More water/herbal & fruit tea/black coffee...
Try and get some protein at all 3 meals, even if it's just a tbsp of peanut butter...
Quit striving for the ladylike portion sizes and pile my plate with salad/veggies like I did at the beginning.
I can live with eating like a trencherwoman...I never was very ladylike to start with!4 -
You need better protein than PB my friend! PB is more cals from fat than protein. Compare to egg white, or ham / turkey slices, or prawns, or greek yogurt or what's the silly thingy you guys have in England that I mentioned to @Janatki something fresh... a yogurt like cheese thingy.... (we don't have it around here; but that an apples was the mainstay of an MFP friend).
Now that I brought it up... apple before dinner half hour... first mentioned by my pediatrician 99,999 years ago... and still true today, at least for me)...
And in the spirit of experimenting... you can ALTERNATE between portion size or ladylike or lumberjack. It is NOT an all or nothing static forever... (by preference thoughtful and intentional) adjustment is your friend!
The 30 fiber? Well for sooooo many reasons should be (in my books) a minimum...
But with your rainbow you probably do achieve it. Remember that the MFP database is not exactly perfect and that you do need to double check from time to time the entries that you use. 3 -
I was averaging 50g fibre a day, but think it's dropped below 25g the past few weeks. Must try harder...3
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Gimpy has almost graduated to normal walking. Only get stabbed when going up stairs... and obviously not really trying to push hard from that paw for now! How are the bike alps? CCCGG doesn't go for plate breaking because then she would feel the need to clean up! But does seem to feed a few too many kittens!3
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Bella_Figura wrote: »... eating a bit more protein and fibre would mitigate some of the raging hunger ... Quit striving for the ladylike portion sizes and pile my plate with salad/veggies ...
I can live with eating like a trencherwoman...I never was very ladylike to start with!
This, exactly for me. Lots of fibre (but I measure it by "potassium" numbers) and protein is my recipe for success. Once those freakin' refined carbs creep in, I end up hungrier and heavier.
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The only thing that remotely seems like "experimenting" has been playing around with eating times. So far, I'm finding if I eat on a "normal" schedule, these feelings of hunger pop up way too often compared to before when I didn't have a set schedule. Before I started this journey, I never knew when to eat because I never felt hungry. I would eat when I remembered I didn't eat. Now, it rears its head way too much. Frankly, it isn't enjoyable since I don't want to think about what I can eat right then and there when I have work to finish.
Maybe I need to take a more scientific approach to narrow the cause of these hanger pains. I shall start by making a Food Note about how long it took before the hunger pains struck after a meal. Maybe it's what I ate for the day? I hope I don't need to start adjusting my macros again. I was pretty satisfied with the current adjustment.
It's great to hear you're doing better @PAV8888!2 -
Bella_Figura wrote: »then they made the challenge target way harder!
That doesn't feel quite right!
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Luxia - it is such a science fair project. Seems like as soon as we find a nice "spot" it is time to juggle again.3
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Once Thanksgiving has passed I am going to experiment a bit more. So far I have had success in actually listening to my body and only eating when I am hungry. Is it 100%? No. I still have work to do. But my weight has gone down a little and I am a lot less bloated then I was before. Last night was a mess up for example, but I did catch myself in the middle of a way too big bowl of cheez its and took the rest back to the kitchen and put them away. So I mean... baby win?
The biggest thing I am looking at doing is a more flexitarian style of eating. So increase my fruits and vegetables, whole grains, non meat protein sources, and healthy dairy while decreasing the amount of meat I eat. I don't want to be vegetarian or vegan. I have nothing against those ways of eating, but they are not for me for a number of reasons. But I do think changing my focus to what I can ADD to my diet will work better. So the plan is:
- a vegetarian breakfast (which happens the majority of the time anyway, but more focus on adding additional produce)
- either a vegetarian lunch OR a small amount of meat that is not the main focus while focusing on adding produce
- either a vegetarian dinner OR reducing the "normal" meat serving. Hoping for one vegetarian dinner a week maybe and cutting red meat down to only a couple times per month.
We shall see how it goes. Honestly, the hardest one will be dinners. I need to break out of the mindset that dinner is a meat and then some sides to go with it. Maybe I need to find some yummy and filling vegetable and grain sides that I can make my focus some nights. I will still make my favorites like pot roast or a ribeye... just will watch my portions better those meals.3
