Experiments, tests, trying things out..
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Yes....but living with a husband who takes almost 100 tablets a day has made me tablet-averse. I'd rather understand the cause and address it if possible, rather than just paper over the cracks.
Maybe it's just retirement and having more free time...I'm finally tackling all those annoying health issues that I've had for decades but done nothing about...
I started with the excess weight...
Then started trying to improve my cardio-vascular fitness and endurance...
Lately I've started to address my very stiff spine and lack of flexibility...
It was only a matter of time before I turned my attention to resolving 'the poo issue'....
Now if I could just turn back the clock and restore elasticity to my saggy, wrinkly skin that would be the icing on the cake...
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I like your style Garfield! Flexibility... maybe you'll help tie me in a pretzel soon....
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Here's a theoretical conundrum for you....
If you had to choose between:- maintaining a higher than ideal weight - but being healthier
OR - maintaining your ideal weight - but having some minor but annoying health issues
This is the situation I'm grappling with at the moment.
The minor issue is slow gut transit.
This seems to respond better to a diet higher in fat - in fact, the sweet spot seems to be about 120g fat/day.
It also responds well to an 80g/day maintenance dose of dried prunes (there is science to back this up! The 80g optimal figure wasn't plucked out of thin air...)
Problem is:- 80g prunes adds about 180 cals/day (but only a trace amount of fat)
- 120g fat amounts to about 1,080 cals
- Let's assume I also wanted another couple of pieces of fruit per day for overall health reasons - say one apple and one orange - both have almost no fat - but would add another 120 calories/day
- Let's assume I also wanted a couple of portions of veggies - again, no fat...let's say they add 120 calories
So here are my calories so far:
That's 1500 calories before I've eaten a single bean, pea or lentil; before I've eaten any grains... (OK, I know bread/pasta/rice all contain fat, but not in great quantities....)
The maintenance calories for my ideal weight are about 1,750/day - provided that I can continue to walk an average of 18,000 steps/day and continue to cycle 80kms a week. If injury prevents me maintaining that calorie burn, my TDEE might drop as low as 1,495/day (at an activity factor of 1.4)
Best case scenario, at my ideal weight I have only 250 calories a day for pulses and grains....
Worst case scenario, I have to eliminate those foods from my diet entirely, and get all my energy from modest amounts of fruit and veggies, and the bulk from the fat contained in meat, dairy, fish and nuts/seeds.
It's possible, but is it enjoyable? I don't even like meat and fish very much!
Whereas, if I maintained at my current weight, I get 130 - 150 cal/day more to play around with, which wouldn't buy me many grains/pulses, but would be better than nothing.
So should I settle for maintaining my current weight so that I can have a more balanced diet....or eventually push on to my ideal weight (10kg lower) but suck up the more restricted diet?
Decisions, decisions...3 - maintaining a higher than ideal weight - but being healthier
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I'm coming to the maybe living at a higher than romantic dream weight is optimum. So I would opt for that. I was going to try to aim for the "ideal weight" just to try it on, but that seems to really mess with my body. It wasn't like trying on a different sized piece of clothing. Going to try not to do that again.3
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I mean, my "ideal" weight puts me into the 120's for my height. I would be ecstatic to be 160-150 with my health being better. Less weight will hopefully equal less pain. Nothing is going to cure my IC but I can maintain my current remission thanks to diet. Plus, I have to think about my mental health as well.
I also have digestive issues, though mine seem to be the opposite. I have to be very careful with my fat or I will be spending all day in the bathroom. Which is one big reason I am really trying to cut out fast food. I always react badly to it.3 -
I must have the guts of a goat….no allergies, no plumbing issues, no diabetes and healthy organs!….my b/p is probably a little high and I have replaced body parts but I am healthy…..gaining back 40 pounds has left me huffing and puffing but I am back on track and the scales are moving in the right direction…350+ was horrible, 240 was amazing, and 280 is doable but not good….my goal is 199 and for me that would be a huge victory and a livable weight for me….to think I was within 40 pounds makes me sick but I am getting back there!2
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Garfield you're hurting my brain!
And you made me spend time trying to look at my own numbers... which highlight that YES I *am* eating way too many saturated and tran-fats (traced to logged cookies for the two highest individual values in the 12.5 and 10.5g range on the two days in question) for my own good.
Also explains my current weight... I am a little bit older and a little bit less active... and I am eating on average very close to what my TDEE was between 2016 and 2018. So I currently weight a little bit more than I did then close to the upper half of my 2016 weight.
When you think about it Garfield... that's actually fairly amazing given how much "hamster handling" is taking place... to essentially end up at the same place! Really: it actually a bit mind blowing.
So we now get back to you!
A bit of a false dichotomy you're presenting. It isn't either, OR. It is a continuum.
Sure. Right now things work *best* at 120g fats. BUT IT IS NOT THE ONLY OPTION.
How many grams of fat did you start with? I'll take a random stab at 1/3 of your 1500 Cal. So you started with less than 60g of fats and you've now doubled them.
Well 120 is BEST. But you can try 100g or even try 80g. Maybe it won't be as PERFECT as 120g. But it will probably be better than 55g or 60g.
And the dried prunes? A lot of them are covered with a thin sheen of oil for preservation and... I suspect to enhance their effect. They are not a bad little thingy and they do count as your BASIC fruit for the day (85g dry is two portions vs 85g fresh being one)
Decisions are not irrevocable. And issue management does NOT have to be 100% diet with no help from the pharmacy... nor 100% managed via pharmacy with no help from diet!
So NUDGE towards where you want to be. But do watch out for saturated and other not so great fats. Not all lipids are created equal and I really should start looking at MY saturated and trans-fat consumption!
I don't think you (you personally given what I know about your gastronomical adventures) will be too happy going "low carb" and being happy with your "diet" does play into sustainability just as much as managing any other condition.
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You're right of course on all counts.
Yes, your hamster wrangling is nothing short of stupendous - to be in essentially the same place given the plates you keep spinning is mind boggling.
Yes, it is a false dichotomy.
Yes, I don't have to hit the sweet spot every day...things started to improve when I nudged the fat above 80 on a consistent basis...and got better still at 120g, which is all I could comfortably shoehorn into 1900 calories.
Yes...I could use some supplements....with the caveat that they've not helped much in the past, and have actually tended to exacerbate the problem...hence why I'm currently experimenting (using myself as a lab rat again) with a dietary approach instead.
Yes...decisions aren't irrevocable and are infinitely flexible and nuanced...
Yes...I customarily focus mainly on unsaturated fat...though an unhealthy amount of suet and butter have sneaked into my diet of late, I must confess...
Yes...I have ZERO affinity for a low carb diet. Sheesh, I'd hate it! I certainly wouldn't even consider it if there weren't this ongoing issue making life uncomfortable...but sometimes for health reasons you need to suck things up that aren't especially palatable. I'm trying to find the magic formula that means I can get the improvements I need without going low carb...
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So retract to 80g, or so, slowly... and use some but not excess fiber.... and see how things go
Girl fiber is supposed to be at around 26/28 I think without double checking. I think mainly because of total calories. So probably a bit less for you if you're below 2k.
Before you increased fiber for not so good results, and during the increase, how much was your lipid intake during the same timeframe?
Maybe increase lipids 20% from THAT and keep fiber normal as opposed to high or low and see how a week or two go? 🤞
Or go for 80g and then play with fiber to see if more or less is good.
And what type. Let's just say that it is REALLY NOT a good idea for me to have all bran buds -psyllium- without good and speedy access to a washroom the next day 🙀🙀🙀🤷🏻♂️
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Current plan is to keep fibre below 25g (which is still on the high side for the average person). With the bulk coming from soluble fibre rather than insoluble.
It's counter-intuitive but INsoluble fibre (the 'roughage' that is supposed to be the magic bullet for curing or preventing constipation) is the thing that causes me problems.
Psyllium is actually 70% soluble fibre, which doesn't help as much as it should, but doesn't do any harm either. Bran (insoluble fibre) is actively harmful for me - everything grinds to a halt.
Prior/during the doomed 'great fibre increase experiment' my lipids were averaging 1g per kg of bodyweight, which is about spot on per the recommendations (and actually pretty consistent since day 1).3 -
So with only 10% increase in lipids you saw improvements
So try 80g + soluble?
No idea what buds are made with but most of the action from them comes from the psyllium unlike other all bran product. If I have too much insoluble without enough lipids I would have trouble too.
Thankfully due to total calories I get to coast at 100g + unlimited fiber and only get in trouble when 8 reduce fiber to normal levels! 👍😹
The young ones around here will say this conversation has gone to the 💩er! 🙀😘3 -
💩💩 2 U 2 Yooly!
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At least we know your still alive! 2
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Am I the only person who constantly treats myself as a lab rat for dodgy dietary/exercise experiments?3
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And that's why we love you!
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I don't know if I can consider myself a lab rat for that kind of experimentation. However, I have been subjecting myself to an exceptionally long test.Bella_Figura wrote: »Am I the only person who constantly treats myself as a lab rat for dodgy dietary/exercise experiments? Let's put it in a more "scientific" format since this is a long-term test.
Hypothesis: Practicing "maintenance" early in the weight loss journey prepares the mind and body for the actual long-term maintenance through engrained habits.
Methodology:- Based on the article I've shared elsewhere previously, the idea is to practice intermittent fasting with a completely scheduled day, with flexibility in the middle of the day for inconsistent events. (Incorporated on February 01, 2022.)
- Set calorie goal on MFP to be the maintenance value for a desired milestone weight goal after confirming said value does not go under the current weight's BMR.
- Follow a typical day around that maintenance value.
- Once weight drops to the milestone weight goal, readjust the calorie goal on MFP again to the ideal weight goal's maintenance value.
- Once the ideal weight goal is achieved, maintain the same settings and eating habits to see if weight averages around the ideal weight consistently, with a 1-2% error margin for a year.
- First 3 weeks, elevated hunger pains for reasons unknown.
- The following month, hunger pains signify a lack of sufficient protein & fat combinations in the previous meal or the time between meals exceeding 4 hours.
- Micronutrient adjustment after 100 days seems to have no correlation to fullness level.
- The last month, incorporating suggestions from the linked article above, has improved my sleeping pattern and productivity. In addition, healthy eating habits have now been solidified.
- At 250 days, I had not thought much about what I've been doing until I started writing this post.
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Where are all my I LOVE @luxia2020 emojies?!!!!
YES. YES. YES.
Now let's build some extra resilience in the model... some defensive strategies... flesh it out... and we're ready to publish! 3 -
Where are all my I LOVE @luxia2020 emojies?!!!!
YES. YES. YES.
Now let's build some extra resilience in the model... some defensive strategies... flesh it out... and we're ready to publish!
Funny you mention that, PAV! I was wondering how else to flesh it out before I decided to temporarily shelve it for now and post what I had thus far! Though, what did you mean by "defensive strategies?" 2 -
"defensive strategies"
The world will inevitably collapse.
Things won't work out.
Change will be externally imposed.
Hamster city panic!
OMG, OMG, OMG.
run around run around... the sky the sky....
How will you mitigate the damage?
What parts will you cling on to the "very end" going down with the ship and the music playing because they are the most important aspects of why things work?
--What if your next job is night shift? what part of "the plan" would you still be able to get to work?
--you built flexibility mid-day you said. What if your friends drag you out to after nine pm half price sushi? will you survive?
hey: I just stumble into these things: your clear thinking and plan above is already above my pay grade
But I am a believer in onions and fall-back positions due to being a "natural" pessimist... and then neutrally observing happy happy things happening.
If I were an optimist things would be better, right? But I am not.. so there's that and we each work within our hamster limits! 1 -
"defensive strategies"
How will you mitigate the damage?
What parts will you cling on to the "very end" going down with the ship and the music playing because they are the most important aspects of why things work?
--What if your next job is night shift? what part of "the plan" would you still be able to get to work?
--you built flexibility mid-day you said. What if your friends drag you out to after nine pm half price sushi? will you survive?
hey: I just stumble into these things: your clear thinking and plan above is already above my pay grade
But I am a believer in onions and fall-back positions due to being a "natural" pessimist... and then neutrally observing happy happy things happening.
If I were an optimist things would be better, right? But I am not.. so there's that and we each work within our hamster limits!
Haha, funny you say these things because my daily habits and personality are already "mitigating" the majority of these questions. I'm naturally a lazy, will-not-move-if-Earth-no-go-kaboom type of person. Therefore, I always plan for events and assignments with several weeks of buffer time once I receive notice. It's all for when "I don't feel like doing anything and just want to sit and stare into space." Which happens a lot. Unannounced, last-minute hangouts go in the days "I don't feel like doing anything." Schedules and stuff I set are guidelines to follow, but it's OK to deviate. At the end of the day, that's all they are: guidelines.
But, this is also why it's only "scientific" in quotes because it's too heavily dependent on my personality and beliefs. It's also reliant on I've learned how to adapt to my brain, so I'm less reluctant to make healthy habits, except for exercising. I prefer to rely on increasing NEAT movements since... I don't like exercising, period. Though, I admit that's harder to do since I naturally prefer to do things efficiently and effectively so I can waste more time doing "nothing."
If I had to "cling onto the very end" something, it would just be food logging since that's all I've been doing. There's just something about seeing that overall total at the end. Regardless of whether I go over for the day, food logging helps me plan my meals. I've had days where I've changed the meal plan several times in an hour, but seeing that number allows me to double down on how much to eat. I willingly commit to it and accept the consequences if I still want to eat something after a 15 to 30-minute buffer. As long as the weekly result is only two digits over the target, I still call that a win in my book! If I go over, I go over for a day. No big deal. I have proven that going over for a day isn't going to ruin my weight loss goal. It's even more inconsequential if my weekly target is still kept at the end of the week. Have to enjoy life somehow, am I right?!
As for your fun examples, I believe that "nighttime is for self-indulgence/care and relaxation." Therefore, under no circumstances will I ever subject to a night shift. Need more money? That's what the gig economy is for. And, like all freelance gigs, that's subjected to however I wish to allocate my time.
Realistically, my friends all know I leave the evenings to do my game dailies or catch up on my light novels to whine down, so they would never invite me out after 21:00. I guess it's a good thing I'm usually the one dragging people out instead!
However, I won't deny that if they invited before 19:00, chances are likely I'd be out until midnight. If there was miraculously a half-price sushi place still, I'd still go for my usual delicious selection of sashimi. Ever since I realized carbs make me hungrier quicker while not as satisfying as I hoped, I don't care much for them anymore.
You might ask, what if my friends want to hang out every day for the entire week? I always tell them, "Nah, I'm OK. I must recharge for a few weeks after the last social event." Perks of being an introvert!
Another thing I didn't mention is that I have another built-in flexibility in my schedule: dinner time. Unlike my other meals that are specifically blocked for an hour at "specific" times, my last meal of the day is blocked in a 4-hour window because the real goal is to finish eating by 21:00. It'll still count as long as I stop eating at 21:00 98% of the time. XD3 -
I may have to start hugging you as much as I "virtually" do Garfield -- at least up to today!
Though I admit I sometimes want to "hug" her a bit too tight around the neck... but hey, where would be the fun otherwise??!!
Obviously (see ladies, I'm learning) all of us won't do things the same way. BUT, what I see and hear is:
--you're thinking it out
--you're planning it out and are committing to exploration with no expectation of start / end / or speed
--you're willing to make changes while exploring potential options
--you're willing to evaluate how things are going and re-evaluate and modify as needed
--your goals at any one point (other than maybe in the very beginning? I wonder how much your initial deficit was) do not seem counterproductively/scarily excessive
So what's not to like?
--I love seeing resilience factored in plans because *kitten* happens... even unlikely things such as being three or even four digits off target by the end of the week!!!
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These last few posts have been really interesting to me! I love it when people do something, observe the effect, tweak, observe the effect again...that's what balance is all about!
I've now been 'in maintenance' for 22 complete days. The goal was for my trend weight to be in the range 63.4kg - 64.0kg. If it stays in that range I'm pretty confident that my TDEE calculations are correct. I wasn't sure how much I could get away with in terms of having days with reduced exercise etc...so now I have 22 days' data to give me more certainty.
My calories averaged 1885 per day. On 9/22 days I ate slightly above TDEE - the sky didn't fall of my head and I didn't gain ten pounds overnight. On the day I ate 3,054 calories the trend weight increased the next day, but a couple of lower calorie days soon saw it heading downwards again.
These last few days my trend weight has started to creep upwards because I've (deliberately) eaten for consecutive days at or slightly above TDEE while having 3 low-exercise days in a row. I didn't increase my NEAT to compensate. I'm interested to see how little exercise I can get away with and still eat around 1900 calories a day....not that I'm exercise-averse, but I'm interested to see how far I can push the laziness envelope, just in case I get an injury or just go through an indolent patch when I don't feel like pounding the pavements for two hours a day.
Across these 22 days I've also been battling 'the slow GI transit' issue by experimenting with higher fats, more fluid, different types of fibre, high exercise days followed by low exercise days, higher calorie days followed by lower calorie days etc...so things are still in a state of flux and subject to further change and tweaking.
What all of this has shown is that my weight is pretty stable, all things considered. I'm enjoying maintenance so far...I have more calories to play with, which makes experimentation with fat intake and exercise requirement easier...I haven't felt hungry...the process is pushing all my data-geeky buttons
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Charts, graphs and calculations, oh my! I am so impressed by the amount of work and studying you have done.
I’m sure I’d benefit from being more scientific about losing weight at this stage. I’m trying to eat maintenance calories for my goal weight. Being old and short gives me 1550 maintenance calories based on light activity. I may be more active but I’ll start low.
This is a little more doable than the 1200 calories MFP suggest for weight loss. Tried to do the 1200 but it’s just impossible and restrictive to the point that I eventually cave and then begin snacking.3 -
Oh my! Now Bella, how is your higher order math (I don't actually grok math, I never did though I recall once learning something about matrices which I currently have no clue as to what they do!, and the other day I was looking at something I wrote in my 20's for a class I got a charitable pass at and I am fully blanking at what the symbols even stand for!).... anyway. MATH!
My personal observation (re fitbit for example) is that there is a larger error the more active I am. At the base calories level if I were to make a cut the eventual weight loss would be much closer to expected than it is when making it from an active day.
This may be related to being used to the particular type of exercise. Of course with a power meter and a bike you are much safer at estimating actual expenditure than by using steps as a proxy for movement.
I admit that you are a WAY WAY WAY more experimental hamster than I've even been. I was initially TERRIFIED PETRIFIED SCARED to even TOUCH anything that was working for fear of regressing.
I would have experimented on the way down. Not at maintenance. Just to give myself the cushion of having a target deficit while letting end results be actual vs slower vs no loss but not risking re-gain.
Also... remember to give yourself time. Time will pass and the numbers you get today are NOT permanent. They do change over time and are somewhat elastic.
So yes. You are a super adventuresome hamster. Me? Much more scared and timid! BEWARE OF PROWLING CATS! <--- WAIT A SECOND. I know WHY you're adventuresome! YOU are a CAT not a hamster! I forgot!!!!! 3 -
That seems an extremely small increase of TDEE for the increase in the number of steps?1
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I absolutely LOVE looking at all the numbers & charts this group ends up discussing - strangely, even moreso when I've been in a bit of a funk toward logging and actively working toward losing weight!
I think I've finally identified the culprit - and I suspect it's also why I mentioned I got stuck right in the 225-230lb range the last time I lost this amount of weight - hormones. My body is adjusting in how it handles all the lady-things, and I'm starting to believe maybe there's some truth (for me) in some of the things I've read about fat stores, release of hormones as fat is lost, etc. Unfortunately, feeling like I'm only "losing" one week a month rather than three is INCREDIBLY demotivating - especially with 75-80lbs to go.
I've barely tracked this week - still eating the same things for breakfast/lunch, with the exception of maybe an extra cup of coffee. Dinner/dessert/snacks have been entirely intuitive - and certainly more than I had been eating for several weeks. Yet, I'm still within about 4 pounds of my last reported low weight. No stressing about the number of carbs or sodium. No counting. Treating the scale more as an "oh, ok that's interesting" than a "why is it not lower, I'm doing all the right things?!?"
I had planned to be totally back on point and somewhat strictly so until vacation, to maybe drop another BMI class before heading out. Clearly, my body is saying something different. With the exception of a few weeks in total, I've been in some level of restriction for 9ish months - almost to 23% of starting weight lost. Perhaps I'm overdue for a bit of a reset phase - it's the part I never successfully implemented last time, and got to 206 by brute force before burning myself out. I'm not interested in repeating that situation, as much as my hamsters want me to hurry up and lose this weight already - so perhaps some experimenting is on the docket for me, too. ☺️4 -
Re the maths...I spent the first half my career as a chartered management accountant and got promoted as high as CFO for a large teaching hospital, so I guess my maths must've passed muster. Though admittedly I always felt like a square peg in a round hole as an accountant...my degree was in English and History and I write novels for a hobby so I'm wordy not mathy. But I could do it when I had to. But I was glad when I switched to improvement science instead for the second half of my career.
Re the small increase of TDEE for steps - I only recalculate the activity multiplier that's added to BMR if predicted trend weight diverges significantly from actual trend weight. So my spreadsheet calculates BMR daily based on scale weight** and then adds a standard activity multiplier of 1.64 to arrive at TDEE. Which is based on my belief that exercise/activity smooths itself out over time, and I don't need to recalculate my activity multiplier daily based upon that day's actual level of activity.
**Now I come to think of it I ought to peg daily BMR to trend weight not scale weight. I'll go and amend my spreadsheet while I think of it....
I experimented quite a bit while still losing, but I've been braver and bolder about experimenting in maintenance because what's the worst that can happen?*** If I start to regain I'll have to go back into deficit while I figure out where I went wrong. One of the reasons I'm mixing up high calorie days (above maintenance) with lower calorie days (below maintenance) while trying to be in overall balance by the end of each week is because I want to remind myself that eating at a deficit is pleasurable and satiating if you choose the right foods. I don't ever want to feel - through unfamiliarity and long disuse - that eating at a deficit is a big deal. So high/low calorie days to keep myself on nodding terms with deficits is one of my 'defensive strategies.'
***Yes, I know the worst that can happen is that I'll experiment myself onto a slippery slope and regain all my lost weight....but I'm trusting in my process and my defensive strategies to prevent that happening. I have sooooo many defensive strategies - layer upon layer upon layer of them. Hopefully if one - two- three fail there will still be some safety nets to catch me before I fall too far.6 -
Are you adopting some TIMID (not tiny which is what google had corrected to) onion strategies?2
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A millefoglie of strategies...
Why have onion when you can have cake...
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